Go Figure
Weren't we just talking about this the other day?
I'll say it again:
Any time anyone tells you they've got this game figured out, laugh in their faces.
The Vegas sports books must have taken a bath today on this one -- perhaps the best pitcher in the AL, trying to become the first ten-game winner, against a guy with no wins and an ERA near seven.
The Cubs shut out the Blue Jays 2-0 this afternoon, but that's not the real story... the real story, of course, is the guy with the painted-on goatee, Sergio Mitre. He dropped his ERA by two full runs, from 6.88 to 4.88, and picked up his first win of the year.
Just how dominant was he?
- he retired the first thirteen batters he faced;
- he had fifteen outs on ground balls, and, further...
- except for Reed Johnson's line-drive single to right-center in the sixth, no one hit the ball out of the infield. The other hit was a grounder to third that Aaron Hill just barely beat out; there was one walk and the other six outs, of the twenty-one that Mitre retired, were strikeouts.
Oh, and for good measure Mitre doubled in the only run he'd need, after another double by Todd Hollandsworth. Then Corey Patterson singled in Mitre for the second and last run.
Talk about the downtrodden rising up.
Jeff, Howard and I spent the day with Kurt Evans of Cub Fan Nation and Goat Riders Of The Apocalypse and his girlfriend Carolyn, who made the trip in from, of all places, Toronto, where they now live.
Kurt's a perfect example of the first generation that grew up watching the Cubs on cable on WGN, back in the day when you could watch 140 or more games a year. He grew up in western New York state. He's never lived in Chicago. And yet, he's just as devoted a Cub fan as those of us who live within shouting distance of the ballpark. His blog name (wish I had thought of it first!) is a perfect example of what we are -- yes, we are a nation. We're everywhere.
As he mentioned over at Goat Riders, he brought the Zambran-O-Meter sign with him -- this was invented when Z, in a silly moment, said the Cubs would win 120 games this year.
Better get on the stick on that, right, Z? Anyway, the sign shows Z with his laser heat-ray eyes heating up a thermometer-like object which now registers 31 wins. It looks very much like this, in fact:

(It now also says: co-sponsored by www.bleedcubbieblue.com.)
Kurt left it with me and I'll do my best to update it and display it in the bleachers on appropriate occasions. Kurt and Carolyn also brought a sign reading "M-V-Lee", which they'll be showing off in section 237 on Friday. If you see them there, take one of the BCB cards I gave to them to distribute.
I knew it'd be a good day today when I managed to squeeze my car into a parking space that was almost exactly the same length as the car itself. Even better, after the game when I returned, the car behind me had left, making it easy to get out.
You're probably wondering why I'm not saying that much more about the game -- well, there's really not that much more to tell. It was hot and sticky, and we watched towering thunderstorm clouds build up all afternoon and then miss the ballpark to the north and east, and if Ryan Dempster hadn't issued a walk and given up a single in the ninth, the game would have been even faster than the speedy two hours and fifteen minutes it took.
In twelve relief appearances covering thirteen innings, including today, Dempster has allowed 11 hits, three walks, four runs (only two in the last 11 of those appearances), has struck out ten, blown one save (got the win that day in extra innings), and saved seven.
Ladies and gentlemen, I believe we have found ourselves a closer. The biggest worry about Dempster was his propensity to give up too many walks, but this hasn't been an issue at all. Today's base on balls was the first one he's given up in his last eight appearances.
Thus, the somewhat curious Phillies-Tigers trade today, in which the Tigers received Placido Polanco (good! this means the Cubs won't get him!) and gave up to Philly Ugueth Urbina, means the Cubs won't necessarily run out and grab Billy Wagner, if the Phillies are even considering putting him on the market. Incidentally, ex-Cub Ramon Martinez also went to the Phillies in this deal.
Which leads me to a trade I might consider pursuing, if I'm Jim Hendry. Even after Corey Patterson's RBI single today (the rest of his at-bats were the usual -- two swinging strikeouts and a weak groundout), I'd still consider trading him, and getting a stopgap till Felix Pie is ready (ETA, in my opinion, no earlier than 2007).
Think outside the box for a moment. The Reds are probably about to have a fire sale. You'd have to give up too much to get Adam Dunn. How about Ken Griffey Jr.?
No, I'm serious. He's healthy -- has played in 52 of the Reds' 57 games -- is hitting well (9 HR, 38 RBI, pretty good considering the rest of the Reds' offense), and can still play a good center field. The Cubs could probably get him without having to give up anybody of any import -- well, I suppose they'd have to send Patterson in return, but isn't that the point? -- as long as they assumed the contract.
Yes, I know Griffey's brittle. Yes, I know the contract calls for payments till the year 2176 or something like that.
But this would be a bold statement, a bold move, something that says, YES, we want to win now -- and right there you've got a guy who could step in to the #3 slot in the batting order. He could play CF this year and next, then slide over to LF for the year or two after that when Pie is ready.
Opinions welcome.
Finally, there were two guys at the game last night who I forgot to mention -- sitting in the front row waving a Canadian flag. I think they were confused -- one of them was wearing an Expos cap.
Anyway, Jeff said they spotted the two of them driving by the park before the gates opened in an RV, waving brooms out the window. Tim from LF yelled at them, "Good luck parking that thing!"
They weren't seen in the bleachers today, so maybe they've been driving around the city looking for parking. Say, in case you guys are reading this: your team lost and they wouldn't have let you bring the brooms in.
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I really like the idea of Juan Pierre. He is a bit of a problem child for the Marlins right now and a change of space might do him good. However, he does hack at absolutely everything and his OBP is horrible, but still better than Corey's. Still, the Marlins have a leadoff guy in Castillo and might not be afraid to make this deal for a power guy. To me, this is a perfect trade.
However, there is the "Lou Brock Factor," that is the fear that the moment Patterson is traded he will figure things out and become a superstar. That is just a chance you have to take.
Pierre...
I wouldn't worry about the "Lou Brock Factor". Brock was miscast by the Cubs. Patterson's propensities are well known. I can't imagine him becoming any better anywhere else.
You say, Hey Corey, go be potentially good somewhere else.
I say, yup.
Pierre would be a great fit...
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 8, 2005 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
No, not Dopirak
So...
Trade Dop for the right deal.
I saw Dopirak play in spring training...
But, he is clearly a one-dimensional player, and he hasn't progressed that well this year so far.
If he could bring a good major league player in return, I say, yes, deal him.
Well, I...
But if the Cubs want seriously to trade Brian-D, then let's send him to a contender in the AL, where he can play DH if his defense never improves.
About Juan Pierre...
He's sucked this year. Although, his .306 OBA is still better than Corey's.
Trade with Marlins??
by strohdkill on Jun 9, 2005 12:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Pierre Blows
He gets thrown out about 33% of the time when running, his average is not very impressive, the only thing he has over corey right now is his obp and that isnt very impressive.
We can do better than Pierre, and Ken Griffey Jr. should be out of the question. I have faith in Corey coming around eventually, but if he doesnt I don't want to unload for Pierre or Griffey, Hendry can do better than that.
by Will71081 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Jun 9, 2005 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
talk about a guy that needs a change of scenery...
I do agree with Ross above that i'd rather see us go after a lead-off hitter. However, having Griffey and Patterson together in the OF would mean great defense from here on out...
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 8, 2005 5:55 PM CDT reply actions
Only trade for Griffey if
by Will71081 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Jun 9, 2005 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
That's a very good idea...
Dempster
And it seemed like such a wacky and bad idea to take a base-on-balls-master tommy-johns project and turned him into a lights-out ninth inning guy. I didn't think it would work, but I've been pleasantly surprised up to this point.
by andyrut on Jun 8, 2005 6:10 PM CDT reply actions
he's crazy...
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 8, 2005 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Who would want Corey? And why?
I think we're stuck with Corey for a while.
I like it
And he would have to hit in the four or five hole, not the three hole. You keep Lee hitting three, then hit A-Ram and Griffey 4 and five (or the other way around).
And I think that a lot of people would take the chance on Corey - I would! There is no doubt that the guy has potential, and he comes cheaply.
I have always wondered about the Cubs acquiring Griffey...I think it could work. I think that the bigger question would be if the Cubs are willing to unload Corey.
I think they would...
You're right about Griffey's spot in the batting order. Best would probably be fourth, between Lee and Ramirez, to split up the two right-handed hitters.
More on "Lou Brock Syndrome": Remember Brock was totally miscast as a Cub. The Cubs wanted him to be an Ernie Banks-type power hitter from the left side. He wasn't this sort of hitter and in fact, had Corey-like strikeout/walk numbers his first two years with the Cubs. He stole some bases, this at the very beginning of the 60s-70s stolen base era, but Cub thinking in those days was totally away from the SB (example: Brock stole 24 bases in 1963. No one else on the team had more than eight).
Brock inadvertently fueled the Cubs' desire to make a home run hitter out of him when he hit a home run into the CF bleachers at the Polo Grounds, something only three other men (Luke Easter in a Negro League game, Joe Adcock, and Hank Aaron) had done. You see the problem here.
When the Cardinals got him, they immediately knew what they had, installed him at leadoff, and his skills blossomed right away. Oddly, with the focus being OFF power for Brock, he wound up hitting 12-15 a year in his prime, with his career high being 21.
With Patterson we already know what he is not -- a leadoff hitter. He's a six- or seven- hole hitter. But he wants to be a three-hitter and he doesn't have what is necessary to be one. He's resistant to coaching, and his approach to at-bats is horrendous.
I cannot think of a coach or manager anywhere in baseball who can change habits made in over 2,000 major league at-bats. For comparison's sake, Brock had about 1100 at-bats when he was traded.
It was, of course, the worst deal in recent (and maybe all of) Cub history. Trading Corey Patterson, presuming value is received in return, would not be.
Sosa vs. Patterson
I still think that Corey has a ton of potential, and could still turn out to be a very good player. But right now he is hurting the Cubs. At this point I would be willing to trade him, but I would also be content with waiting him out for a little while longer.
Sosa learned...
Pentland's available. He could be about the only one who could reach Corey.
Even then, I wouldn't expect miracles.
actually
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=2076327
talks about learning to be a leadoff hitter...
I'd take Griffey
I doubt that Cincinnati would take Corey for him though, unless a third team were involved. One big reason the Reds want to trade Griffey is that they've got an outfield glut. I doubt they want an outfielder in return.
I think the Reds might also be hesitant to trade Griffey within the division--or at least to us or St. Louis. But I don't think it would hurt to pursue, and he really could break loose in Chicago.
I think they'd trade him here...
It would, of course, be quite a bit of money to take the entire contract, including the deferred cash.
But as I mentioned, the Cubs do wipe out $17 million of payroll with Sammy Sosa off the books next year. There may be other large contracts (Nomar?) erased from the payroll budget. It's doable.
Here's the take of a Reds blogger...
Let the rumormongering continue!
DONT STOP BELIEVIN'!!!!!!!!
by BillHoldenFan on Jun 8, 2005 7:30 PM CDT reply actions
Griffey
Griffey's production isn't much better if at all (actually, it's worse by measure of Wins Above Replacement that balances Griffey's superior bat with Corey's far better baserunning and defence), and Corey's the only one that stands a shot at getting better in a hurry because of his youth (I'd say Corey's underperforming right now). Corey's also ten times cheaper (literally!) and far less injury-prone.
Absolutely no way would I make that trade then. Not even if the Reds paid every cent on Griffey's contract, Mr Red Reporter.
Honestly, I know Corey bashing is the cool thing to do these days, but a sense of perspective really wouldn't go amiss. Yes, Corey strikes out too much and doesn't walk enough. But there are other facets to his game that are big positive - baserunning, defence, power.
by John Hill on Jun 8, 2005 7:57 PM CDT reply actions
But is he really underperforming?
Not only has Corey not progressed, he has regressed.
You mention three "positives". Let's look at them.
Baserunning: irrelevant if he's never on base. Among "regular" players at this moment, Corey ranks seventy-ninth in on-base percentage -- just below Yadier Molina. Horrid.
Defense? Well, that's what started this thread yesterday -- his moon-shot throw that nearly hit Ron Santo in the pressbox. And no, his throw to third later in the game didn't make up for this.
Power? I can't think of ten less meaningful homers than the ten Corey has hit this year. All ten of them are solo jobs, and only five of them have been hit in games the Cubs won. He's only driven in eleven runs (including one today) other than the ten solo homers.
Unless he takes tomorrow's off day and has a brain transplant, I'd trade him.
you're wrong about no one changing after 2000 ABs
Sosa, age 24: .309 OPB, .486 SLG, 36 SB, 11 CS, 135 SO
Corey, age 24: .320 OPB, .452 SLG, 32 SB, 9 CS, 168 SO
Those two hitters are pretty close to each other. But look at the OBPs Sosa posted in the years following 1993, the year above:
- .339
- .340
- .323
- .300 (yowsers!)
- .377
- .367
- .406
- .437 (yowsers the other way!)
- .399
- .358
- .332
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 8, 2005 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Again, I'll say...
Pentland might be able to. There's another "think outside the box" move. He was just fired by the Royals. Hire him as a "consultant" -- that gets around the MLB rules on how many coaches you can have, and won't offend Dusty and the current staff. Have him work with Corey only.
Do this and you MIGHT have a chance for a miracle with him.
Corey hasn't changed very much since last year
ABs Hits SO BB BA
6/11/2004 221 56 50 20 .253
6/08/2005 222 59 50 11 .266
I don't think Corey has changed much at all, other than becoming a more impatient batter and drawing less walks than he did a year ago.
So, who is going to change Corey now?
That is true...
That doesn't mean he needs to be traded though.
by John Hill on Jun 9, 2005 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Close
More like, "Insert syringe here."
lol
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 9, 2005 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, he's underperforming
Baserunning isn't "irrelevant if he's never on base". It's just less often relevant. But it's still relevant. There will be times when Corey is on base. And then Corey's one of the better runners in the game. I refuse to believe he won't end the year with a higher OBP than he has now.
His defence taken as a whole is well above average. Yes, there are some difficult plays he doesn't make (the dropped dive, and the one at the wall in LA), and he should make them if he wants to win a GG, but many other fielders don't have the range to get to those balls in the first place, and Corey's range gets him to a lot of balls on which he does successfully make the plays. His throwing is normally fine.
And his power. There's no such thing as a meaningless home run. Yes, so far this year they've all been solo shots, but I'm sure you remember him coming up big for us last year in a few extra inning situations. That's just the way it goes, sometimes the bad pitches come with the bases clean, sometimes with them juiced. I don't believe that Corey isn't clutch or anything like that. As for RBI, he's spent half the season hitting after the pitcher.
I'm not opposed to trading him, but only if it doesn't represent us giving up on him. Trading him for Griffey would represent exactly that. Right now though I'm not sure there are other teams out there willing to pay based on Corey's definite potential rather than his production so far. And if that's the case, I'm basically opposed to trading him.
Corey's a good player, a 30/30 guy who plays very good defence at a key defensive position. The reaction to him from fans is disproportionate, and it's based only on the fact that Corey by now should be even better than this. If you want someone to blame for that though, it's the Cubs and their rushing him to the majors, not Corey himself.
by John Hill on Jun 8, 2005 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions
If you're right...
I hope I'm wrong about him. I fear I'm right.
So...
Let's re-word this.
Korey drops balls that other players couldn't even dream of dropping.
I agree
Exactly.
He hasn't done any of these things, and I think there are two primary reasons:
- #1 Draft Pick Syndrome -- i.e. he's a top draft pick and so feels "entitled" to be where he is without working hard;
- Son Of Professional Athlete Syndrome -- Corey's father was a defensive back for the Atlanta Falcons for a number of years in the '70s. I think there are some guys like this, whose fathers were pro athletes, who don't make the adjustments that others do. This isn't true for everyone, of course. Plus, I think Corey has somewhat of a football mentality in his approach to the game.
Griffey
Tis a shame, really, he had so much talent and skill.
by bubbamike the one and only on Jun 8, 2005 8:06 PM CDT reply actions
Griffey and
Yeah, I thought of that...
He's had hamstring problems which were mostly caused running the bases.
When he separated his shoulder in 2003, he did it diving for a ball hit by, of all people, Paul Bako. He hit his shoulder on the warning track in Cincinnati. Could have happened anywhere.
I don't think this is a reason not to do it.
Three quick points.
2)Trading for Griffey would be a horrible move. Griffey is a centerfielder in name only and can not be counted on to play an entire season. Now that we have some finantial wiggle room I don't want to waste any of it on an aging, brittle, centerfielder that cant play center well.
3)Lastly I want to echo John Hills last comments. If Corey were a 25 year old rookie we would all be very happy about what he is showing so far. Dubois is 26 and has many of the same problems without the benefits of defense or baserunning.
by Boilerfan on Jun 8, 2005 8:22 PM CDT reply actions
But
Corey is learning too.
by Boilerfan on Jun 8, 2005 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Who Corey Wants to Be
Look at the data, this doesn't make sense
Player A: .312 OBP, .444 SLG, 3 SB, 36 yrs. old
Player B: .341 OBP, .483 SLG, 0 SB, 35 yrs. old
Player C: .301 OBP, .438 SLG, 7 SB, 25 yrs. old
A is Burnitz, B is Griffey, and C is Patterson. Clearly, Griffey is having the best offensive year of the 3. However, the difference between Patterson and Burnitz is almost meaningless, and Patterson plays better defense and runs the bases better. Yet, Corey is the guy everyone is bashing and saying we should trade straight up for a hitter having a marginally better year that is 10 years older and comes at a much higher price! Now that i look at it, there's no way i do this. Furthermore, if we DO trade for Griffey, i'd start Patterson over Burnitz any day of the week.
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 8, 2005 8:35 PM CDT reply actions
Of the past 7 years
I'm not trying to be snarky, but I don't see how adding another injury-plagued player to this lineup helps. Within 2 two weeks, Junior would go banging into the wall, break something, and be out for the season. Corey, meanwhile, will turn into Lou Brock.
But that's just me---I've always thought Junior was highly overrated. Sure, he was great when he was young and healthy, but since then, I haven't been all that high on him.
I'll take Patterson
If you break each player down, I'd still take Corey. The obvious risk with Griffey is salary and injury, but even with those two issues aside Griffey just isn't the same player. He hasn't hit 25+ homers in a season since 2000. His BA is nearly the same as Corey's with only 3 fewer strikeouts and a comparable number of AB's. Power numbers are a wash, with Griffey certainly having a better track record but having the advantage of playing in the Great American Shoebox. Some will disagree with me, but I take Corey in a landslide in centerfield. Despite his recent transgressions, he played Gold Glove caliber defense last year and has far more range than Junior. He has a decent arm, but remember Griffey is no sniper by any stretch. Corey still makes things happen when he's on the basepaths(even though he can't seem to fit getting on base into his busy schedule) while the same can't be said for Griffey.
If I measure risk vs. reward, I think the Cubs take a tremendous risk with the annual injury to Griffey, plus being unable to unload his contract if need be. Also, I just wouldn't want to miss out if Corey ever honed his skills. There's no denying he has upside, it's just at matter of if and when he will realize it.
Pitching prospects
by Boilerfan on Jun 8, 2005 11:03 PM CDT reply actions
Mitre Impressive
If Sergio continues to pitch like this, we may NOT want to trade him!
One other thing, the cumulative ERA for the Cubs pitching staff has come down almost ONE run - from 4.60 (peaked during the 7 game losing streak in early May) to 3.73 today.
Again, impressive given the injuries and flakey relief pitching.
Don't trade Mitre?
Next year the Cubs will have...
Mark Prior (not going anywhere period)
Carlos Zambrano (not going anywhere period)
Kerry Wood (almost certainly not going anywhere)
Greg Maddux (assuming his option vests, which it probably will)
Glendon Rusch (assuming he picks up his player option, which I'd say rate right now as more likely than not)
Jerome Williams (out of options, must stick on 25)
Angel Guzman (out of options, must stick on 25)
Sergio Mitre (out of options, must stick on 25)
All of those, assuming health (which in the case of Guzman is a bit of a stretch, but I'm not giving up on a kid that young, good and effective when healthy yet), have justified claims to be starting on a major-league ballclub. The first three (Prior, Z, Wood) are guaranteed their spots, obviously. That means we have five pitchers for two spots. You do the math, that doesn't quite go! We project to have a real surplus.
Mitre is the most fungible of the above eight. After all, Ricky Nolasco (currently at Double-A) is a similar sinkerballer (although not as good). So, if the opportunity arises, I think we have to trade Mitre. If Mitre performs great between now and then and raises his trade value, great. We should then be able to get more impact talent (OF?) in return.
by John Hill on Jun 9, 2005 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Mitre...
I think we're going to find out more about Jerome Williams later this year -- no doubt, he'll replace John Koronka as soon as he puts together a couple more decent Triple-A starts, or loses some weight, or both.
Don't Forget
by Boilerfan on Jun 9, 2005 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
I do not think...
If you can convince other teams otherwise, by all means, trade him NOW.
Prospects
Rich Hill I think might project better as a BJ Ryan-type reliever (using a curve instead of BJ's slider). He also has a few problems with home runs right now. Pinto probably also projects better in relief, and he was control problems.
Valdez is a junkballer. His fastball tops out in the mid-eighties. Nolasco is an inferior version of Mitre.
by John Hill on Jun 9, 2005 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Why no Polanco?
I have to ask why is it a good thing that we don't get Polanco. He is more valuabe than any player we currently on the bench while providing insurance in case Neifi v2002 returns. Also, Polanco is a free agent at the end of the year so when Detoit realizes they are not going to win anything this year Polonco will probably be traded.
by Boilerfan on Jun 9, 2005 12:24 AM CDT reply actions
Consider...
I don't think the Cubs had what the Phillies wanted.
Probably Not.
by Boilerfan on Jun 9, 2005 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh, for another OFer
by Serena on Jun 9, 2005 12:28 AM CDT reply actions
From the wire
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/3666036
The Rangers' Kevin Mench, among others. Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi jokes that Bowden calls him once a week about Vernon Wells.
(One for one for Patterson as mentioned on another Cub website??)
. . .
The Mets remain desperate for a quality lefthanded reliever, (Remlinger?? for a prospect or two?)
by chroniccub on Jun 9, 2005 8:36 AM CDT reply actions
Damon
by MOE on Jun 9, 2005 8:44 AM CDT reply actions
i'd rather have Damon than Griffey...
However, i don't think the Saux would do this one...
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 9, 2005 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Ho, MOE
Remember your SATs?
Korey is to Youkilis as McDonalds is to:
A) Denny's
B) Burger King
C) Charlie Trotter's
The answer is C.
The Saux are not all about OBP anymore...
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 9, 2005 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Heck if I know
by MOE on Jun 9, 2005 9:36 AM CDT reply actions
That said --
All things being equal
by MOE on Jun 9, 2005 9:40 AM CDT reply actions
Except for the fact that
Pierre is one of the most overrated players, mainly because of the Marlins championship that year. Pierre was not the reason they won the series though.
by Will71081 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Jun 9, 2005 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Losing streak ended
by jimhickman on Jun 9, 2005 1:21 PM CDT reply actions
CPat
Wrong
Runners on: .263/.307/.316
None on: .268/.295/.520 (SLG is high as all 10 of his homers have been hit with the bases empty.
He's bad.
um...
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 9, 2005 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
tx
Not just OBA
Oh
But 5 points in BA and 12 in OBP isn't much better. It's statistically the same.
But, hey. I'm a dumbass because I don't think that this is "much better." Fine.
Sheesh!
Take it easy
Bah.
Easier to forgive a mistake with no one on than with runners on.
Trading Patterson
by kdjohn34 on Jun 10, 2005 11:40 AM CDT reply actions
No way...
by Shawn Domagal-Goldman on Jun 10, 2005 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Note to Jim Hendery:
by Boilerfan on Jun 10, 2005 2:54 PM CDT reply actions

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