That Giant Sucking Sound...

by Al Yellon on Aug 4, 2005 4:59 PM CDT in Chicago Cubs Recaps

... you heard from Philadelphia today was the Cubs' season beginning to go down the drain.

To continue the metaphor, there are stoppers coming tomorrow. Is it too late?

Not with 54 games left, it's not too late. But it had better start now.

The Cubs lost to the Phillies 6-4 today, losing the series. Hey, look! At least it wasn't another one-run loss. Incidentally, that boxscore (at least at the time I posted it) shows the Cubs at 54-55; it's wrong.

What's most galling about this is that the Cubs twice rallied back and made it close, only to see Mark Prior allow two solo homers in the middle innings, to Chase Utley and Todd Pratt -- yes, the same Todd Pratt who I declared in 1995 to be Worst Cub Of All Time -- and that was the difference in the game.

OK, time for a digression. Here's the reason I gave Pratt that title. On June 15, 1995, Pratt led off the 11th inning against the Giants with a walk. One batter later, Brian McRae doubled him to third. One pitch later, the Giants' Steve Mintz threw a wild pitch.

Did Pratt score? He could have, easily. The game would have been over, Cubs win. Nope -- instead, he hesitated and wound up with a caught-stealing, as Giants catcher Kirt Manwaring was given enough time to get the ball and flip back to Mintz for the out. The Cubs lost the game in 13 innings.

The Cubs let him go at the end of 1995 -- a year in which he went 8-for-60 (!) with a .209 OBA, worse than even Corey Patterson.

Since then, he has hit a game-winning HR in the NLCS (1999 Mets), and has racked up a .352 lifetime OBA, and been a competent backup catcher for the Mets and Phillies. Far better, in fact, than virtually every backup catcher the Cubs have had in the ten years since they let him go.

Today's HR was Pratt's 44th career homer. Until today, only one of them had been against the Cubs.

The Cubs did seem to have some fight in them until these two solo homers undid Prior -- you've all noted the fact that his curveball wasn't working, and it could be the heat and humidity, or maybe that's just a ridiculous excuse. It's time to stop the excuses and time to start playing winning baseball.

When the Cubs hit well -- they did have eleven hits today -- the pitching fails. How this team, which lives and dies by the home run, could have failed to hit a home run in this entire series, in a launching pad like Citizens Bank Park, is absolutely unfathomable to me. According to the above-linked recap, this is only the second time in CBP's history that a visiting team hasn't homered in a series.

Is it over? No, it's not over. Am I going to sit here and rip the Cubs like some do? No, that's not in my nature. I'm a fan. Yes, I want them to win, but I'm not a fair-weather fan. These losses disappoint me, they don't prompt me to Jay Mariotti-like railings.

It hasn't been a good day. My car is still making horrible-sounding scraping noises; it's going in tomorrow. I haven't been able to shake the sinus congestion I've had for a week now -- the doctor's office even got a call (I never do that!).

Like most of you, I came across the Cubs because of family -- my dad took me to my first game, and he didn't know what he was starting! The Cubs become family, and I know you know that feeling. You can be disappointed without being draconian.

Two-thirds done; that's where we are tonight, and pretty much back where we started -- even at 54-54. That means, if you presume that 90 wins will take the wild card, the Cubs must go 36-18 over the remaining 54 games to do so. Yes, it is true that this club has shown no inclination that it can do such a thing.

But.

There will be four new players on the 25-man roster tomorrow -- Nomar Garciaparra, Kerry Wood, Scott Williamson, and someone replacing Jerry Hairston, likely (shudder) Corey Patterson, though Adam Greenberg and Felix Pie are also possibilities.

It's likely that Ronny Cedeno will be sent down to play every day for Nomar; now, it'll be interesting to see who Williamson and Wood replace. Mike Remlinger could be DFA'd. Mike Wuertz or Roberto Novoa could be sent down -- and what I'd do is get rid of all three of those guys and bring up an extra bat, either Ben Grieve or Scott McClain, so that you avoid silly situations like having to have Wuertz bat for himself (gee, what a surprise -- he struck out looking) in the sixth inning because your bench is too thin.

If you don't keep the faith, then why are you here? The Cubs may not make it this year -- but I'm not quitting. Don't you either.

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Comments

hold on a minute

you can be a fan of something and rip it to shreds. Calling out this teams shortcomings, when they are accurate, is honesty.

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Aug 4, 2005 5:09 PM CDT reply actions

I'm not saying not to be honest...

... but I'm also saying, don't rip for the sake of ripping, either.

I know the shortcomings of this team -- they're pretty obvious.

But as I said, with 1/6 of the roster being turned over tomorrow, maybe that'll give a spark. Maybe not.

If we can't hope -- then why be here at all?

by Al Yellon on Aug 4, 2005 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions

rip for the sake of ripping

That's not what's going on. It's ripping for the sake of the rippee deserving it. It's ripping so those who check on the pulse of the core base know we aren't satisfied.

Scarlett O'Hara-ing (Tomorrow is another day!) over a team like this is just dumb.

by Ivychat on Aug 4, 2005 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions

If we can't hope -- then why be here at all?

Maybe because it's how we were raised.

Maybe because we think/know we're smarter than those in charge.

Or...

Maybe because we're too stupid to move along.

There is hope. It's called 2006.

by Ivychat on Aug 4, 2005 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions

I don't understand...

...why everyone has to be either a pessimist or stupid.

by JD on Aug 4, 2005 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions

JD is right

It seems like the rational people fall somewhere in between. Yes, I get mad when Dusty starts Macias or brings Reverse-Split-Rem into a LOOGY situation. I get disappointed when Burnitz strikes out, or ARam makes a baserunning mistake. But I imagine it will be a long time before the Cubs have all stars at every position and a perfect manager. It's OK to be positive about the team and even-gasp!-hope for Hollandsworth to do well when he starts (even though you wish he would only pinch hit). It's certainly easy to cheer for DLee all the time. I say show some class and also cheer for the guys that you DON'T necessarily want in there. That's what a fan of the TEAM would do, because they want the TEAM to win.

by IowaCityFan on Aug 4, 2005 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions

Iowa City Represent!

Where do you go to watch them? I'll be down at the Deadwood tonight with a Met's fan (in Iowa!). I'm not a huge PBR fan, so if you know of a better place with better specials during Cubs games, let me know.

Let the battle of Who Wants It Less commence!

by jasoniniowa on Aug 5, 2005 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions

The Deadwood...wow

I used to congregate with friends, who were fans because of the reach of the WGN superstation, at the Deadwood. That was in 1984, and earlier. They poured PBR then, too. We listened to Marty Robbins' El Paso on the jukebox, and played Defender, Galaga, and pinball in the back. The Cubs might be on the TV, but it more a place to talk nonsense than watch a game, even during the day. Good times.

by JohnM on Aug 5, 2005 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions

This makes twice now

that you've implied that people associated with the Cubs (players, front-office people, whatever) read fan blogs, Chuck. Where's your evidence for this? Do you have bona-fide proof that Cubs personnel are "check[ing] on the pulse of the core base" by looking at fan blogs? Or is this wishful thinking on the part of someone who runs one and makes frequent appearances on a couple of others?

I know that Len Kasper reads Desipio. But Desipio is hardly the place where someone goes if they want to check on the pulse of the core base of Cubs Nation. It's where they go if they want a few good snarky laughs. I question whether Andy Dolan & Co. have a "modicum of influence", as you put it earlier.

Frankly, I doubt that these blogs serve a purpose beyond the communitarian cameraderie of sharing celebrations and gripes with like-minded fans. But if you have actual evidence that the people that matter at Wrigley Field are reading BCB and its brethren and taking what is being said on them with any sort of seriousness, then bring it out and sway me otherwise.

Incidentally, I prefer your persona here to the one you have on Desipio. You and Al have a nice yin vs. yang thing going on on BCB. It really spices up the comments.

Luck is the residue of design. -- Branch Rickey

by Gregory on Aug 4, 2005 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions

Not sure this is proof

but check out this column in the Trib. Sure looks like a good portion of it was "lifted" from blog entries after the game last night.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cubicle/cs-050804cubscubicle,1,3694462. column?ctrack=1&cset=true

by Thunderclap Newman on Aug 4, 2005 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions

Specifically...

... which portions are you referring to?

by Al Yellon on Aug 4, 2005 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions

The

Bad News Bears stuff stripped from 1060 West. The inventing new ways to lose from a couple different blogs. The Mitch Williams comparison from here. There's probably more.

by Thunderclap Newman on Aug 4, 2005 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions

Reading it more closely...

... yeah, I saw all of that. At the very least, it shows that Tribune people read this blog (and others), if not Cub people.

by Al Yellon on Aug 4, 2005 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions

That doesn't surprise me

Whether they like them or not, media types have become hyperconscious of blogs over the past year, especially since Rathergate. But what I'm looking for is some evidence that the Cubs themselves, or members of the club's front office, read them.

Luck is the residue of design. -- Branch Rickey

by Gregory on Aug 6, 2005 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions

I've been looking for...

... an opening where I can slip one of my BCB cards to one of the players during BP.

Key target: Ryan Dempster. I think he'd get it, more than any other player.

by Al Yellon on Aug 6, 2005 5:50 AM CDT up reply actions

Ripping

Sounds like you took that straight from Lee Elia's mouth - don't rip them, rip me, rIp them c****. etc. We booed and weren't satisfied with losing twenty-two years ago, and Elia said we were wrong to boo - what's different? People in baseball today still can't understand why people boo.

by Tom Mason on Aug 5, 2005 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions

Al, I am still a fan

even though I now realize this is not the Cubs' year. I will still trek to Chicago for the Cards series in September, and I will still trek to Houston for the Astros series in September-October, although it will be a very painful time if the Astros are in the wild card lead and we are out of contention.

I like our players, and I am worried about what is causing them to play so far below their abilities right now. The joy of winning the Cards series in St. Louis seems so far away right now. What changed?

by dfrancon on Aug 4, 2005 5:15 PM CDT reply actions

Wrong....

THIS IS OUR YEAR..... To give up is to be FAIR-WEATHER....

You can rip on them, hate them, boo them, but as long as it is out of love for them then it doesnt matter....

The Cubbies still have a GOOD CHANCE of making it. 5 out, 10 to go against the Astros.... 7 out of the last 9 games against them... We could be 7 out going into those last 9 games (which we might be)

BUT WE STILL HAVE A CHANCE!!!!!! Big changes are going to be made today.... The shake up that this team needs.... Something to start a streak of winning baseball!!

by BillHoldenFan on Aug 5, 2005 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions

No one is arguing that...

... it isnt POSSIBLE. We are arguing it isnt PROBABLE anymore. Look, it's possible that I could still be drafted by the Cubs next year (29 years old, play in summer softball leagues). But is that realistic? Does it make me "believe in myself less" or a "fair weather fan" of myself that I can admit, "hey, I am not going to be a MLB player".

Sure, anything is possible. The Cubs certainly COULD make the playoffs. It's possible. But I, for one, do not think it is probable.

And, according to Al's poll here at the time I type this, 79 % of the voters on this BCB agree that it is not probable that the Cubs make the playoffs. 131 out of 166 voters think it not probable.

Does any of this mean it isnt possible? Nope.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Aug 5, 2005 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions

I hear ya.....

Its the time of the season where probable and possible get mixed up.

Plenty of baseball yet to be played..

by BillHoldenFan on Aug 5, 2005 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions

Isn't there a saying

Everybody wins 54, loses 54, and the other 54 decide the season. I think there are still 54 left. Keep the faith.

by zjb600 on Aug 5, 2005 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions

close

the saying is "everyone will win 60 and lose 60, it's what you do wtih the other 42 that matter." We're only off by 6 games on each end.

by socalbob on Aug 5, 2005 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions

your last sentence

is priceless. Right on Al!

by socalbob on Aug 4, 2005 5:15 PM CDT reply actions

Oh, and I forgot to rip you, Al,

for jinxing us by mentioning the dearth of home runs in the series. Drat. :)

by dfrancon on Aug 4, 2005 5:17 PM CDT reply actions

I gotta try reverse psychology...

... in tomorrow's game post.

Any ideas?

by Al Yellon on Aug 4, 2005 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions

"the mets are a vastly superior club"

who seem to be "much too formidable for the cubs, and most likely will not lose a game for the balance of 2005".

by dc60123 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Aug 5, 2005 6:34 AM CDT up reply actions

does anyone think

that by letting the free world know that on Friday there would be at least 3 additions to the roster that it upset the "vibe" knowing that 3 or more guys were about to be shipped out? I don't see what was gained by announcing it so soon. Team seemed rather lackadasical or lethargic these last 2 days.

Unless it was Hendry's plan playing "spin doctor" for failing to seriously upgrade the team for the stretch run.

by socalbob on Aug 4, 2005 5:27 PM CDT reply actions

Predictions

After 108 games, we are 54-54.

Some believe the season is over, some are still on the fence and others remain buoyed by the games we have left with Houston (10).

Because I do not want to add the downcast tone and pessimism of the posts here and in other locations on the web, lets do this.

Make a prediction of what will happen between now and the end of the season:

Playoffs: Yes or No
Player moves/trades, etc.:
Change is Dusty Status:
How will the Cubs finish?

Mine are below:

Playoffs:
No way. The only realistic chance we have is if the Astros fall off a cliff and Prior, Zambrano, and one of Maddux/JW/Hill pitch like the 3 headed monster in Houston (Rocket/Oswalt/Pettite)

Moves:
I expect that at least one of Walker, Rusch, Hairston, Remlinger, Williams will be traded to a contender. Looking at it another way - only Lee, Ramirez, Prior, Z, Wood, Nomar and Murton are safe on the ML roster. Anyone else can be had, if the interest and trading partner materialize.

Dusty change of status:
Safe through the rest of 05. A bad start in 06 will seal his fate early.

Cubs Finish:
No playoffs, so what does it matter? Well, since I started this, I'll venture a finish of 82-80, 3rd place in the Central.

JK1969

by Jk1969 on Aug 4, 2005 5:29 PM CDT reply actions

My turn:

Playoffs: I'm on the fence as everyone should be.
Let's see, from what I recall from last year we could smell the playoffs and then the Cubs fell apart. Prior, Wood, and Zambrano were rolling and playoff teams were getting scared they might have to face them. I don't want Houston to win it again, or the playoffs are going to be a replay of last year.

Moves: I do not want Walker, Rusch, and Williams to go, and I don't see the Cubs trading them to a contender. I don't see them making big moves.

Dusty Change of Status: He is here for the rest of 05, does great in 06, gets an extension.

Cub Finish: I think this is the same thing as playoffs. And just something that I have thought about since the heart breaking 03 season finish. Would you rather have the Cubs get to the World Series and lose, or not get to the World series at all?

Cubbie blue always sPaRkLeS in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on Aug 4, 2005 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions

Why here if not hopeful?

Look, IvyChat, et al., are just the flip side of the coin. If they didnt care about the Cubs, alot, they wouldnt be here posting, reading, that is obvious. The coin is "being a cubs fan/caring about the cubs". To compare an "Ivy type" to a Jay Mariotti (sp?) isnt fair. Jay gets paid a lot of money specifically to create controversey. He started in Cincinnati and may go somewhere else in due time. Ivy, et al, are here b/c they are fans. Some see the glass as half full, some as half empty, and that doesnt mean that the half full people are "stupid" and the half empty people are bitter non-fans.

For me, kinda giving up on the Cubs at this point is just a pre-emptive strike. I am resigning myself now rather than in September. Hope I am wrong, but I dont see it, so I voice my thoughts, my frustration. The same way sometimes a buddy of mine needs to vent about his wife or kids. He doesnt hate them, it's just sometimes you need to talk it over.

As for predictions:

No playoffs. Finish with 83 wins, no major moves except by way of subtraction. 3rd place tie with Milwaukee. Dusty keeps his job and in the offseason goes somewhere else.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Aug 4, 2005 5:42 PM CDT reply actions

Marriotti

Just the idea of him ever going somewhere else gives me hope...

by jodydavisgal on Aug 4, 2005 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions

Well...

... he's been in this market a long time. The Sun-Times knows he sells papers. That's why they keep him.

by Al Yellon on Aug 4, 2005 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions

My bet....

...is that Mariotti was behind the false circulation numbers.

by Ivychat on Aug 4, 2005 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions

The Season Is Not Over

There's 54 more Cubs games. And I plan to watch as many as possible, and enjoy the game of baseball that I love. The playoffs are something that happen two months from now. Maybe the Cubs will be in it, maybe not. But why ruin the whole summer bitchin' and moanin' about the playoffs? Enjoy the game.

"Everything that rises must converge"

by jpalaska on Aug 4, 2005 5:48 PM CDT reply actions

Thank you!

And from a fellow Alaskan, no less :)

I come to Al's blog - and I followed Al's posts on ASBCC for man years - because he provides a calming effect for me. I watch the game and I scream at Dusty's assinine lineups and in-game decisions, I call out Jim Hendry's name to just DFA Jose Macias already, and I declare after each loss that the season is done. Then I read Al's site and he smacks some sensibility into me. How often has he pointed out that this game of baseball is unpredictable? Anything can happen - and as fans, we should hope for the best.

But then again, I've just been working with glue with some strong fumes for the last hour, so forgive me if this makes little sense.

by gravedigger on Aug 4, 2005 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions

B/C

you have to understand, bitching and moaning is entertaining/interesting to many people. Just as cheering is fun for perhaps you, for others, booing is the fun part. Have you been to Wrigley lately? Who cares who boos and who cheers? I mean besides the people being booed or cheered?

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Aug 4, 2005 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions

I'm Not Against Booing

In fact I've done my share here, particularly regarding Corey and Macias.
But I think it's rather childish to go "whaa, whaa, the Cubs lost so I'll stop watching" It's like, "if I don't get my way, I'll hold my breath until I turn purple".
And enough already with the Fire Dusty rants. It ain't gonna happen, at least not until this season's over.
Geeze, I may be wrong, but I think baseball's supposed to be something enjoyable.

"Everything that rises must converge"

by jpalaska on Aug 4, 2005 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions

Agree with that Mr. Alaska

I am going to keep watching win or lose... well, maybe not as much lose, but still, you know. I am not proposing going on strike against the Cubs, it's my entertainment! As for firing Dusty, you're probably correct, but if fans booed him constantly from here on out, he'd be gone.

Sosa. LaTroy. Patterson. The players dont want to be booed and the front office has now removed 3 players from the roster due to booing.

Dusty doesnt need the booing at this point in his life. He could walk.

I am not suggesting doing it, but I do think that Dusty could be booed out of here.

Still, the cubs were not built this year to be a 95 win team. Dusty line-ups or no, this team wasnt going to likely challenge the Cardinals.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Aug 4, 2005 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions

"Removed b/c of booing?"

I think they were removed b/c they suck. Which is also why fans were booing. I seriously doubt if players are dealt, sent down or cut just to save them from the fans.

Who's the kid in the big sombrero?

by BCurt10 on Aug 5, 2005 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions

There's the key...

... beyond the Cubs, I love baseball.

It gives a rhythm to the summer. For me, because I'm out at the ballpark so often, it becomes about friends I meet there.

It's a way of life, being a baseball fan, being a Cub fan. Yes, I can rip stupid lineup decisions and seemingly lackadaisical play.

But sitting here doing that day after day, would slowly erode the love I have for this game. I won't do that.

Are the playoffs a long shot? Yes, they are. Were they for the Astros last year? Or the 1995 Mariners at the end of August? Or the 1978 Yankees in August, or the 1973 or 1969 Mets even later in the year than this? Sure, they were, and all of those teams made it.

Is this team going to repeat that? Well, probably not. But until it becomes impossible, I'm going to continue to hope.

Hope is what keeps us all living. Don't EVER give up.

by Al Yellon on Aug 4, 2005 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions

Wise words, Al.

And not just applicable to the baseball world. Thanks.

by dfrancon on Aug 4, 2005 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions

"The Cubs become family..."

And typically, I would agree with you.

But last year and this year, the Cubs have been a hard team to root for. Last years reasons have been well documented, so no need to open old wounds.

This year, I'm having more and more trouble because guys that shouldn't be playing are taking up valuable playing time for the young guys.
There is no way that Neifi should still be starting. That will be taken care of soon.
There is no way that Hollandsworth should have started as many games this year as he has.
Cedeno, Murton and Dubois deserved more and more consistant playing time.
I've been saying all season long that Dusty needs to give D-Lee some rest, and now we're starting to see that he's wearing down some.
Remlinger should have been DFA'd a long time ago, or at least used correctly by Dusty.

Under Dusty, the Cubs have gone from "loveable losers" to a team of retreads and has beens who lack any sort of spark or hustle. Putting some of the younger players in the game could help out with that. There just doesn't seem to be a hunger in most of the players.

I think that Hendry has proven himself time and time again as a good front office man, but he's lost the reigns of this team to Dusty and Dusty isn't afraid to flaunt that by openly defying him as in the Dubois situation and with the younger guys coming up and riding the pine.

And people can talk all they want about how Dusty has helped lead the Cubs to consecutive winning years, yada yada yada, but the fact of the matter is that with the talent the Cubs have had under Dusty, these teams should have performed a lot better. The fans know this and they see it. That is why more and more people are booing at Wrigley when the players continue to underperform. Most Cub fans that I know wouldn't dream of booing someone who is truly giving their best effort. But with Sammy last year and Corey and LaTrene this year, it's obvious to see they aren't even trying to do better, they aren't making adjustments and are just cruising through. That's how they become the second cousin who spent time in jail but that nobody talks about. They're still family, yes, but you wouldn't necessarily have them on your Christmas card list.

The Dumbass

by Scott @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Aug 4, 2005 5:52 PM CDT reply actions

If someone...

does not talk about their second cousin who spent time in jail, that means that they never loved that second cousin. If the Cubs went to jail, I would send them a nice Christmas card and a present to go with it.

Cubbie blue always sPaRkLeS in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on Aug 4, 2005 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions

If the Cubs went to jail

I would bake them a big cake with a metal file inside it.

But then, being the Cubs, they'd probably bite into the cake before cutting it and break a bunch of teeth.

Luck is the residue of design. -- Branch Rickey

by Gregory on Aug 4, 2005 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions

since '06 predictions have begun

I'd like to add wishes or prayers--Billy Wagner to close out games for the Cubs! I've always loved that guy--5'10" and throws 100 MPH.

I wouldn't mind seeing Furcal come over to play SS. Switch hitter with great speed (although not a premium OBP). Make Nomar move to 2B giving us a "mulligan" for his injury plagued season.

Get Brian Giles to roam RF or LF. Solid veteran hitter with good pop, speed, and OBP.

Furcal SS
Nomar 2B
Lee 1B
Giles RF
A Ram 3B
Murton LF
? CF
Barrett C

by socalbob on Aug 4, 2005 6:09 PM CDT reply actions

No Bob...

I want Todd Walker to come back. Nomar is not going to move to second, and unless he saves this team big time, he isn't coming back. He already got his chance. As for Furcal, I don't know. But I wanted Ronny Cedeno as the starting SS. And at center, it could be a new number 20, Felix Pie. He is a leadoff guy now, and is the Diamond Jaxx CF. Or we could try to get Johnny Damon.

Cubbie blue always sPaRkLeS in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on Aug 4, 2005 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions

disagree

as Pie is not even close to being ready. Like your Damon point, but will he be worth the kind of money he'll be seeking? I like Walker, but not that much. He seems to hit the most "empty" .300 I've ever seen and maybe I'm sour on him because he's been terrible with his situational hitting the last 2 weeks. Nomar owes the Cubs a discount for '06. He's been a paycheck bandit this year.

I think over 1/3 of this year's team will be gone.

by socalbob on Aug 4, 2005 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions

My guess

is that Damon will either stay with the Red Sox or join the Yankees. It's not just the big money he's gonna want, it'll be the long-term contract. I don't see Hendry giving him one. Two or three years with an option is probably the best he'll be offered by Hendry, whereas Cashman and Epstein will probably offer him four to six years.

I keep wondering if Garciaparra could be persuaded to move to the outfield in '06. I like Walker's bat, and I wouldn't mind keeping him around for another year or two.

I'd give Cedeno a shot at starting SS in spring training, but I'd make him earn the job. And I doubt that Pie will be ready to handle ML pitching before at least the middle of next season.

Luck is the residue of design. -- Branch Rickey

by Gregory on Aug 4, 2005 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions

A Matter of Degree Only.

Most (All?) here believe the Cubs will not catch the Cardinals for 1st Place in the division. We can agree on that, both the "optimists" and "pessimists". The Cubs are currently 14.5 behind the Cards.

For the Wild Card, the Cubs are 5.5 games back. Some here believe that is too far (by the poll Al conducted, the strong majority) to come back. Others believe it can be done and point out examples in recent history where that exact scenario has occurred.

A lot of back and forth is on the boards about who is right, who is the true fan, the meaning of how one is a fan.

But it's just a matter of degree really.

At 14.5 games, even Al has conceded the division (not just the games back though, the character and make up of the Cubs team as well is obviously relevant here).

However, at 5.5 games, some have, some have not, given up hope (again, taking into account the Cubs team this year).

So in other words, somewhere between 5.5 games and 14.5 games, it is "OK" to concede. Just a matter of degree.

For me personally, with 56 games to go and the Cubs 4 games out, I wasnt ready to concede to myself, to admit it wasnt the Cubs year. Now, with 54 games to go and the Cubs 5.5 games out, I am ready to concede. Has much changed? Not necessarily.

...but everyone one of us has a line, and that line for even those who are keeping the faith, is somewhere between 5.5 and 14.5 games.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Aug 4, 2005 6:13 PM CDT reply actions

yep, I would agree

with that. There is always a "buy or sell" point. My point will be after these games in NY. Hendry pointed to this day with his deadline failure and the team is obviously waiting for these guys. If I see some inspired baseball and an ass whooping laid on the Mets, then I'm still optimistic. If they lay eggs like these last 2 games in Philly, then I'm done-see ya in Mesa, March of '06.

by socalbob on Aug 4, 2005 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions

Exactly SoCalBob...

So, your line is with 52 games to go and the Cubs no closer than 5 games out (if Houston loses their next three games). And I respect that. You have a different line than me, mine occurred with today's loss. Your's may be in two days, two weeks, or never (they win the wildcard).

Al's may be at 8 games out with 32 games left, or it may be 10 games out with 11 games left. I dont know. Al probably doesnt know. But to say that one fan is better or truer than the other based on a different arbitrary "ok, they're done" line in the sand seems silly to me.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Aug 4, 2005 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions

I don't completely agree or disagree...

I mean if Derrek Lee came out to pick the best fans to join him and the team of the clubhouse, I think he would pick someone who believed in his team.

We, Cub fans, and the Red Sox fans too, did not get the name of the best ones in baseball because we are honest and give up on our teams. We got that title because even if the Cubs were in last place, even if the Red Sox couldn't win the World Series, we still cheered them on. We have always been there for the Cubs, and whether they have been there for us or not, we should still be with them.

Cubbie blue always sPaRkLeS in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on Aug 4, 2005 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions

to clarify

I won't stop rooting and cheering for the Cubs and attending the last of my 1/3 season ticket package. I will cheer just as hard as today. It's just that at a certain point, you say"it's over" and move your thoughts to next year.

If we were Sox fans, we would stop going all together. My bad, we wouldn't even go even if they were in first place. LOL!

by socalbob on Aug 4, 2005 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions

Clarifying too.

I think the problem here is that people think b/c I have "given up" on the Cubs season this year that means I dont follow them as my entertainment any more. Even when the Cubs are mathematically eliminated, I will be watching, cheering, and in here plotting moves for next year.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Aug 5, 2005 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions

Look at it this way

if we were 5.5 behind the Cards, we'd be all fired up about making the playoffs. Thanks to the wildcard, we are still actually in contention. Could be worse, our season could have been over by the All-Star break.

Not saying that Dusty doesn't make my head explode on a daily basis or that I would sooner drive bamboo shoots under my fingernails than see Korey back in the lineup, but I'm not giving up. . . .yet. It seems like, for the past few weeks, we've all been just. . .waiting. Waiting to see if we got a back bat before the trade deadling, waiting to see if we got a closer, now waiting for Nomar and Wood to come back. The team seems to be waiting as well, though I'm not sure it's not just the same lackluster attitude that they've had all year. Let's at least see if Nomah can inject some fire into this lineup.

Anyway, I'm giving it a few more weeks before I throw in the towel.

Hey-Dawson backwards is Noswad!---Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Aug 4, 2005 7:07 PM CDT reply actions

Hear, hear.

This reflects my views very accurately.

by Al Yellon on Aug 4, 2005 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions

As someone who doesn't mind rippng stupid play

I feel I am entitled to rip MY TEAM when they don't perform like I know they can -- I certainly agree with Scott's above line about the Cubs underperforming based on their talent level.

dusty (and the rest of the coaching staff) bear the primary responsibility but it is also incumbent on the players to realize when they need to adjust. But of course certain players DO this which is why the blame lies at the feet of the manager, ANY manager.

NLBallClub -- couldn't agree more with your "varying degrees" theory. For me today was the tipping point. Prior has to be our Clemens, Pedro, Schilling (last year) and today he just didn't have it. We needed him to come through and he didn't. Please understand I am NOT blaming Prior for us not going to the playoffs, but if your ace doesn't come through in a big game it is disheartening.

All this being said, I will still continue to root, root, root for the Cubbies because that is what I do. I am a CUBS fan, not a WINNING CUBS fan. I have to believe that with the talent we have in the minor leagues 06 will be an amazing year.

And look at it this way....at least we aren't Royals fans.

"I love winning, you know it's like, better than losing" -- Tim Robbins in "Bull Durham"

by AlabamaCubFan on Aug 4, 2005 8:56 PM CDT reply actions

can you please tell me WHAT TALENT?

The Cubs have 2 players that would be able to play everyday for other clubs--Ramirez and Lee. And only 1 pitcher who would be in the rotation--Zambrano (I took out Prior with his injury factor).

So that leaves 6 position players and our entire bullpen that couldn't play for another team we are competing against for a division title or WC berth.

From my view THIS TEAM IS SERIOUSLY TALENT DEFICIENT.

by socalbob on Aug 5, 2005 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions

And AL....

I cannot tell you how much I have enjoyed becoming a part of the BCB community this year.

Thanks for the site.

And remember, the glasses aren't rose colored, they're CRIMSON. LOL!!

"I love winning, you know it's like, better than losing" -- Tim Robbins in "Bull Durham"

by AlabamaCubFan on Aug 4, 2005 8:59 PM CDT reply actions

Let me say right here...

... that this community is what it is, because of people like you, Alabama, and everyone who posts here.

I may not agree with everything all of you write, but I've seen so many well-reasoned and articulate posts, great statistical analysis, historical perspectives, personal anecdotes...

but most of all, passion for the team we all love and want to win so badly.

You all make BCB what it is. Thank YOU.

(And Alabama -- you must read "Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer" -- I assume by your last comment that you're a Crimson Tide fan!)

by Al Yellon on Aug 4, 2005 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions

I live in Alabama

My heart is with the Oklahoma Sooners (Crimson and Cream)

BOOMER SOONER!!

"I love winning, you know it's like, better than losing" -- Tim Robbins in "Bull Durham"

by AlabamaCubFan on Aug 4, 2005 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions

Read the book anyway...

... it's really about being a fan of any team, and what it does to your inner being.

by Al Yellon on Aug 4, 2005 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions

I thought

there were no more OK fans after the Orange Bowl last year. Go Trojans! :-)

LOL!

by socalbob on Aug 5, 2005 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions

SO the O's fire Mazzilli

How's that Sammy trade looking now Pete?

"I love winning, you know it's like, better than losing" -- Tim Robbins in "Bull Durham"

by AlabamaCubFan on Aug 4, 2005 9:21 PM CDT reply actions

So....

who wants him to be the Cubs' manager? This is the chance to get rid of Dusty!

I don't vote for Mazzilli, but I bet someone out there does.

Cubbie blue always sPaRkLeS in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on Aug 4, 2005 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions

Ugh

Just got back from the game (by way of the Dodgers-Nats game as the bottom half of the two city doubleheader, but I digress).

I often wonder whether the result of a game is because one team is playing well, or its opponent poorly. Without even bringing back the debacle that was the end of Wednesday night's game, you could tell that clearly (and unfortunately) the Cubs were playing poorly. The best indicator was how happy all of the Philly media was at how well their team was playing all of a sudden. Last night, Tejeda magically solved his control problem. Today, Abreu magically solved his homerless drought after the all-star game. And IIRC this series (correct me if I'm wrong) was only the second in which an opponent did not hit a home run in CBP. Doh!

Clearly, the season's not over for the Cubs, as it seems like no one (except possibly the Astros)wants to grab the Wild Card. But we are obviously moving in reverse again.

Good atmosphere at today's game, although it was obviously hot and sticky enough to make Prior uncomfortable. I could not ever remember having been to a game before where the first three batters of the game got on for a team to be followed by a grand slam. It really made my scorecard ugly.

[Another non-Cub aside from tonight's Nats game: Brad Wilkerson hit the first slam in Nationals history, which at least washed some of the bad taste from Abreu's afternoon slam out of my mouth. Lasorda sat near me, and I knew the game was over for the Dodgers when he got up and left in the seventh ....]

by 08Cubs on Aug 4, 2005 9:47 PM CDT reply actions

MLB.com

has this as part of the headline for the Nats win. "Patterson K-rrific..." Reminded me of this center fielder that is coming to start tomorrow...

Cubbie blue always sPaRkLeS in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on Aug 4, 2005 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions

interleague olay

is there a defined pattern? I am trying to find out if the cubs might be in seattle next year. I know we played the west last year and the east this year which makes me think a heavy central next year, but we have played the yankees both the last two years, any thoughts?

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Aug 4, 2005 9:53 PM CDT reply actions

play

dammit

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Aug 4, 2005 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions

Don't Know

But I think the scuttlebutt is that each division will indeed play its counterpart (East-East, etc.)

by 08Cubs on Aug 4, 2005 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions

for next year's schedule

They'll play whoever Fox tells them to...

by bison on Aug 4, 2005 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions

Almighty Fox

Aint that the truth. And then those of us outside Chicago won't be able to see the game because the Yankees will be on playing the Pirates or D-Backs ....

by 08Cubs on Aug 5, 2005 12:57 AM CDT up reply actions

i believe the cubs were in seattle in 2002

extremely unlikely that the rotation would take them back there this soon. but that is merely a guess.

by dc60123 @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Aug 5, 2005 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions

Well...

... the Cubs played the AL East in 2003 and 2005, but the hosting cities were reversed in the case of Toronto and the Yankees, and they didn't play Baltimore or Tampa Bay this time.

The Cubs haven't played the AL Central since 2001, and I'd think it likely that East/East, Central/Central, and West/West will be the matchups.

If not, and the Cubs do play the AL West again, I'd guess they'd probably host Seattle and Anaheim, since they visited those cities on previous rounds with the AL West, and visit Oakland and Texas.

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2005 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions

son of a

yeah i looked it up later last night to find it, oh well jsut means i have buy some sirline tickets. Hopefully they'll be home on the holiday dates.

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Aug 5, 2005 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions

A visit to Oakland works for me...

but this schedule-manipulating by FOX/MLB should stop.

In the NFL, you know that every team in the other conference will come to town once every 8 years. Every team in your conference at least once 6 years, possibly more. Every team in your division every year.

In the NBA, every team comes to town at least once every year.

In the new-format NHL, every team in the opposite conference will come to town every third year. You host one complete division (of 3)and go on the road to another, every year. Then it rotates.

I'm no huge fan of interleague play, but it's certainly here to stay. So why not have a fixed rotation that assures an even distribution of opponents over several years, but still allows one series against a geographic rival? I realize the uneven number of teams in the NL Central and AL West cause a problem, but that could be worked out.

Why should the Cubs have to play 6 games against the Sox, while the Cards get the Royals and the Marlins get Tampa Bay?

by bison on Aug 5, 2005 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions

This sort of thing...

... does even out over the course of a long season. You still have to win all the games.

You're also right that there should be a divisional rotation. I think what they've been trying to do in recent years is to make up for the fact that for the first five years, there was no rotation.

Many players, coaches and managers from the teams that do home/home with their "rivalry" team, have said it's too much and MLB should go back to, say, one Sox/Cubs series per year, alternated between parks as they did the first couple of years. I could see this happening.

One thing that is likely to happen in interleague play next year, is that the DH will be used in NL parks, and pitchers will bat in AL parks -- just to vary it up a little.

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2005 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions

MURTON

hey, i hate to be a wet blanket after all the encouraging words. i do agree that we are the best fans in baseball, and a lot of that is tied into being NICE and OPTIMISTIC as opposed to a spoiled yankees fan (read: ass), expecting to win and p!%%ing on the team when they do not. but i felt, like many others it seems, that today was the season. you can't blow series like this. you can't if you want to win. remember the end of last year (yes, i'm bringing it up), how we were so close, if only we had won some of those "meaningless" games in april and may? or the series against the reds and mets? it IS underachieving. i have always been a dusty supporter this whole year, and i am just now starting to lose it. WHY DOESN'T MURTON PLAY EVERY DAY? did anyone notice three days ago maybe, when murton went 2-3 (in the 8th spot no less), he sat the next day? was that punishment for not getting a hit EVERY F$%$%ing time up? 430 not a good enough average? the braves are winning with langerhahns, with francouer, with davies, we avoid our young players like the plague, for christ's sake, put in all the youngsters early on like the a's did, let them iron out the kinks and have them game ready in august. it's not just about development, it's about winning. i'm starting to think dusty's record over in SF was bolstered by bonds and not much else. organizationally, the cubs do not know how to win, i GUARANTEE the braves would make it to the playoffs with out roster and we wouldn't with theirs.

phew, sorry for the vent. that said, i want us to make it so badly, this is not to bash but strictly to vent. sorry guys. i love this team like family (well, almost :), and i want to see them succeed. why the cubs cannot cash in their chips i will never know.

i will take your advice al and stay strong. it's tough now but it can be done. for the love of god let's use a guy who can spark us and is hitting the cover off, please???

Rotowire Spin: "Murton is going to play against some left-handers," manager Dusty Baker said. In other words, don't expect much more than an occasional start from Murton now that Lawton's around.

from espn.com

Missing Wrigley summers since 1998.

by cervantes05 on Aug 4, 2005 11:57 PM CDT reply actions

Yeah..

If I read correctly, the Trib article seemed to hint that Hairston could be out a month. If that is the case and they call up Patterson to play every day over Murton, I will truly go psychotic.

I've been harping on this, but Murton and Burnitz CAN play center. For God's sake, Dusty, let them.

by gravedigger on Aug 5, 2005 2:13 AM CDT up reply actions

Murton is not ready

he is up from AA without a full season there. At times he looks clueless. He has not hit the ball hard consistenly as he has eeked out some IF hits. Dusty has picked his spots so Murton can be successful--look at the results.

Murton will most likely be our LF next year and for years to come, but it's asking too much for him to be a critical piece of this year's team.

As for those wanting him to play CF, NO WAY. He's shaky enough in LF which means he would not be able to handle CF in a quality way.

Give the kid some time, he's gonna be pretty good.

by socalbob on Aug 5, 2005 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions

Murton or Murrary

I agree that now is the time to give Murton the opportunity to prove himself. Patterson has had more than enough time to prove he's a lost cause and he shouldn't be recalled.
What about Calvin Murray in CF? He's had a pretty good year at AAA, and if I recall, he had a decent spring with the Cubs.
Why not give a couple of the young players an opportunity here? It can't get much worse offensively and Hairston wasn't the smoothest CF. Any thoughts on Murray?

by BringBackRyno on Aug 5, 2005 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions

Murray is not a kid

he's 34 years old. And has been given numerous chances in the bigs and didn't get it done.

by socalbob on Aug 5, 2005 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions

OK then

not a popular choice. I guess that's why I'm sitting behind this desk and not managing the team.
I'm just looking for something other than more Korey. Anything at all....

by BringBackRyno on Aug 5, 2005 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions

Murray is a nice person

And the prototypical AAAA player (ala Sickels) but he's not going to be called up. He's down in Iowa to teach kids and to, well, just to be there.

According to the Chicago Tribune: "The Oakland A's are 32-0 when they have scored more runs than their opponents.

by Carlos on Aug 5, 2005 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions

Not Calvin Murray

He's no youngster. He's 34, and has had a cup of coffee or two in the majors over time, but for the most part he's a career minor leaguer. Think Trenidad Hubbard.

by BeerCub on Aug 5, 2005 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions

And fortunately...

... Hubbard's not in the organization any more.

Caution: Murray used to be with the Giants. Baker knows him from those days -- that's why he's in the Cub organization in the first place.

by Al Yellon on Aug 5, 2005 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions

So there...LOL

by BeerCub on Aug 5, 2005 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions

Sosa does it again

Excerpt from an article in the Baltimore Sun about the Mazzilli firing...

Mazzilli tried to weather it all. He just rarely seemed to push the right buttons, especially at the end. The team ran itself out of innings, then left too many runners on base. Workhorse closer B.J. Ryan was abused. Bench guys withered on the pine. Sidney Ponson stayed in the rotation. Then there was Sammy Sosa, who really handcuffed Mazzilli.

He kept the aging slugger at cleanup too long. Then he moved Sosa to fifth, sixth, second and even temporarily to the bench. Nothing worked. And the season grew bleak.

by SonnyJ9 on Aug 5, 2005 6:06 AM CDT reply actions

If Sosa stayed

it may have been Baker out on the street instead of Mazzilli. It is weird to think that Dusty just may have kept his job one year longer because of Sosa's infamous last game hissy-fit.

by JFCubFan on Aug 5, 2005 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions

Beltran

Like a lot of folks I really wanted Hendry to do something at the deadline to try and improve and was confused that he didn't make a "big" deal like last year with Nomar.

I watched Beltran absolutely misplay a ball in CF. He has been an enormous bust this year for the mets (hehehehehehehe). Hendry wasn't willing to mortgage the future of the franchise for him and I have to say -- WELL DONE!

"I love winning, you know it's like, better than losing" -- Tim Robbins in "Bull Durham"

by AlabamaCubFan on Aug 5, 2005 6:23 AM CDT reply actions

Fans down on team

This team is getting booed by the fans because of the play on the field..The theory that the fans have higher expectations is crap in my view.Past teams that played .500 ball did not get booed because Cub fans expected less,but because they played the game closer to how it should be played than this current collection of ballplayers and coaches.Cub fans understand the game and if you understand the game this team and Dusty fall short of expectations not because they are .500 but the play that has resulted in this record.We want smarter play on the field and smarter decisions by Dusty and yes I think this organization owes me that.

by jimhickman on Aug 5, 2005 7:46 AM CDT reply actions

Deja Vu.

I don't know if anyone here is an Indiana University Basketball fan, but if you are you MUST be seeing some familiar things here lately.

It truely is unreal the parallels between the Peegs.com board the last couple years and BCB this year - espescially the last few weeks.

IU has Mike Davis: a head coach that makes idiotic moves and says idiotic things over and over. He had some success early, but has gone steadily downhill since.
IU has talented players that seem to play WAY below potential and without much heart.
IU fans have actually booed some of these players... something that has NEVER happened at IU in my lifetime.
There is much debate (on the basketball forum on Peegs.com, at least) of who is a "True Fan." Like the posts in this forum, some feel fans ripping the team and coach aren't really fans. Some believe that makes them bigger fans.

What's funny is that I'm one of the people on Peegs that thinks Davis is a total moron and shoulda been fired a couple years ago, and I can barely stand to watch the Hoosiers play now... tho I watch every minute of every game (sometimes twice). But here at BCB, I am all about giving the Cubs and Dusty the benefit of doubt... at least for a couple more weeks.

What I conclude is that different fans support their teams in different ways. They wouldn't spend their time on this site if they weren't fans. So while I don't agree w/ the extreem that IvyChat and others like to go - I at least understand it... a little.

For what it's worth tho, the Cubs are much more fun to watch - even when they do poorly. Even us Hoosiers can love Baseball more the Hoops.

robb

Who's the kid in the big sombrero?

by BCurt10 on Aug 5, 2005 10:22 AM CDT reply actions

As an IU fan...

...all I can do is nod.

by daubs on Aug 5, 2005 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions

ESPN column

The last sentences stands out:

"It doesn't look good for the Cubs. Twenty of their final 55 games are against the Astros and the Cardinals. This might be a good time to pray."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=2124676

On this board the "optimists" like to keep pointing out how great it is that we have so many games left with a surging Houston and a good St. Louis team b/c we control our own destiny.

That is true (and the supposedly weak end of 2004 schedule didnt do anything for us), but isnt it also realistic to think that with more than 1/3 of the remaining games left against teams that are better than us for 2/3 of the season we are in serious trouble? That so many games against STL and HOU are NOT good news?

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Aug 5, 2005 12:18 PM CDT reply actions

It could...

mean we are in trouble, but I would rather play the team we are behind 5 games 10 times, then not play them at all and not control our destiney. At least we know if we win 7 of 10, we are basically tied with them.

No doubt we have an uphill battle, but it is a battle I plan on attending....

by mannytrillo on Aug 5, 2005 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions