Soriano Rejects Nats Offer

by airweino on Oct 12, 2006 1:58 PM CDT

CBS Sportsline reports that Alfonso Soriano has rejected their contract offer to him effectively confirming he will not return to the Washington.

The offer was for 5 years and $70 million.

Does this mean we need to offer more, or that he just really does not want to play in Washington next season?

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Comments

Probably both...

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 12, 2006 1:56 PM CDT reply actions

Or maybe..

..he wants to move back to 2B and the Nats wouldn't let him.

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on Oct 12, 2006 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions

Yeah, both.

5x75 would do it.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 2:00 PM CDT reply actions

with a no trade

by rlpete on Oct 12, 2006 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions

We

could get Matsuzaka for less than 5x75, including the posting fee. That's an insane figure for a guy who's had one good season in the past four.

Soriano is a bum. Let someone else pay for his one good season

by Josh Timmers on Oct 12, 2006 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions

It didn't say anything about

the no-trade clause. Perhaps 5/$70 is right on target at $14M per year, but I would think that $15/16 would be more like it.

by NO100 on Oct 12, 2006 2:03 PM CDT reply actions

it could be Soriano...

...rejected it because it didn't have a NTC.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 12, 2006 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions

He said he wanted a NTC

Of course, with enough money he might change his mind. Kasten said they weren't going to offer one so it's not clear yet whether it was the money, the NTC and/or the LF/2B question that made him reject it.

In any case 5 for $75 with a NTC is starting to get a little high especially if he demands 2B. I know the FA field is weak this year but last year was his career best. Can he do it again for 5 years?

by rlpete on Oct 12, 2006 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions

How about

We offer him 5 years at the major league minimum and pass on this overrated stiff.

Ask the Mariners how well it worked signing Adrian Beltre to a big contract after one great year.

I do not understand people's fascination with this man. His road numbers in Texas bordered on the abominable. He's a bad defensive second baseman. He's a good left fielder, but that puts Murton out of a job.

His lifetime OBP is .325. That certainly is not worth a major five year contract.

If we sign Soriano, we're going to regret it for years.

by Josh Timmers on Oct 12, 2006 2:41 PM CDT reply actions

perhaps, but don't lump Soriano with Beltre...

...the two can't be compared really. Soriano's numbers are far better with the exception of OBP.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 12, 2006 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions

I find them eerily similar

Beltre - .271/.328/.457, 106+ OPS+, .270 EqA
Soriano - .280/.325/.510, 115+ OPS+, .278 EqA

Beltra has actually been a bit more patient throughout his career, and Soriano has a good sized lead in SLG. Overall, Soriano has been the better player, but not by much.

Now, I've called for the Cubs to pursue Soriano in the past. I believe he will be overrated, he will be overpaid, and he will not match his 06 numbers again. But the Cubs desperately need another bat and he is the best available hitter that the Cubs could realistically get.

by VS on Oct 12, 2006 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions

We could get C-Lee

if we came right out of the gates with a good offer.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions

Lee scares me

He is a DH waiting to happen, is a worse hitter than Soriano and will also be overpriced. Be cautious of overweight OFs who have career highs in HR and SLG at age 30.

Plus, getting him would mean either platooning or trading Murton, who will put up similar numbers at a fraction of the cost.

by VS on Oct 12, 2006 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions

Lee is known as the Cub Killer for a reason

his numbers are Wrigley are gaudy. Soriano and Lee career OPS' are only different .001. Soriano hits more homers and has a higher SLG%, but he also strikes out twice as much. Lee has a lot of power and those numbers would go up thanks to being at Wrigley.

Yes, Lee is fat. Losing some weight would do help his fielding and such. Maybe he'll turn a leaf and decide to lose some of the excess fat. Maybe not, maybe that's just wishful thinking. He's six months younger than Soriano, so they would start to decline about the same time if the age notion were true.

I just have a better feeling about Lee bc A) his career numbers at Wrigley and B) he's able to hit anywhere in the lineup while Soriano's numbers start to decline after being moved out of the leadoff spot.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions

Indicative of....

...Lee at Wrigely Field or Lee facing crappy Cubs pitching?

by FukudomeAtLarge on Oct 12, 2006 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions

Not all our pitching is crappy

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions

So was...

Pierre's numbers prior to this year

by cubsfan2883 on Oct 12, 2006 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions

Pierre

came after having a big slump. C-Lee would be coming after his highest HR and RBI totals, plus that was right after a year when his avg/obp/slg/ops were all below his career average.

I'd take C-Lee over Soriano, then work out a trade for Tejada in which we are able to get rid of Izitirus in order to make the salaries somewhat more even. I'd make sure to keep Hill though.

Other than that, get pitching via FA or trade.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions

That sounds all well and good...

but how on earth do we acquire Tejada without trading Rich Hill? We missed the boat on that last year.....

J.P. Riccardi is not going to pay Vernon Wells...CALL HIM NOW HENDRY!!!! Don't lose another Rafael Furcal!

by TheBeerBaron on Oct 13, 2006 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions

Not 100% sure.

They'd still be willing to take Prior based on potential, but we'd have to throw in another young arm (Marshall?). Also, Pie will be involved this year. Prior, Pie, and a young pitcher or two would do it.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 13, 2006 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions

A lot depends on how desperate

Peter Angelos is to move Tejada......I think that Tejada wants to move much more than Angelos would like him to. If you remember correctly, the Orioles wanted the CUBS to include Rich Hill in the Prior/Tejada trade......and Hendry would only have done that if the Orioles included Erik Bedard. Both parties said "no" and the trade fizzled. I would rather Hendry get involved in serious dicussions with his supposed "good friend" Larry Beinfest about Dontrelle Willis whom is scheduled to make upwards of $6M in arbitration. I honestly do not believe the Marlins want to pay that much when they can pay peanuts to Scott Olsen, Anibal Sanchez, Josh Johnson, Ricky Nolasco and Co.

Good pitching always beats good hitting.....just ask Joe Torre.

by TheBeerBaron on Oct 13, 2006 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions

I have heard....

... that Willis IS available, for the right deal. Sure, I'd love to get Willis back.

For a point of reference, he is two years younger than Rich Hill.

by Al Yellon on Oct 13, 2006 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions

Yes, yes he is....

and according to maddog's "credible sourced list"...Willis is on Hendry's list. So are Jeff Suppan, Adrian Beltre, Alfonso Soriano, Luis Castillo, Freddy Garcia, and other dust balls that I forgot....

By "dust ball" I mean players of less signifigance.

Good pitching always beats good hitting.....just ask Joe Torre.

by TheBeerBaron on Oct 13, 2006 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions

We'd have to give up Hill

in a Willis deal for sure. They'd probably want Pie too. I think we'd benefit the most from trying to make it a huge, blockbuster deal and getting Cabrera out of it too.

Hell, offer them Prior and cash as part of a deal for Cabrera.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 13, 2006 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions

What? I don't think we'd have to

give up Rich Hill at all to get him. I wouldn't be surprised if the Marlins accepted Matt Murton, Felix Pie and some pitching prospect.

Good pitching always beats good hitting.....just ask Joe Torre.

by TheBeerBaron on Oct 13, 2006 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions

Why would they

give up Willis without getting someone like Hill back? They wouldn't want both Murton and Pie, just Pie. If they cared about getting two young position players and a pitcher, plenty of other teams would be ahead of us in the race to get Willis.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 13, 2006 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions

Um....maybe because...

Anibal Sanchez (2.83) and Josh Johnson (3.10) had better years than Willis and look great for the future. Plus Scott Olsen (4.04) and Ricky Nolasco (4.82) looked sharp as well. Not to mention Renyel Pinto is supposedly one of the, if not the most talented arm on the young staff. The Marlins aren't hurting on their starting pitching, that staff just needs more experience. Willis' value is incredible right now and the Marlins could receive a lot for him. Why wouldn't the Marlins want Matt Murton? Pie might not be ready and they have a less-than-talented Reggie Abercrombie out there and a natural catcher in Josh Willingham in the outfield. Plus, who knows if they aren't going to move Cabrera or not.

Good pitching always beats good hitting.....just ask Joe Torre.

by TheBeerBaron on Oct 13, 2006 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions

Yes, but

they would even be inclined to get Hill just to turn around and trade him or one of their other young pitchers.

I'd rather have Anibal than Willis, I knew Boston made a mistake giving him up when the trade happened. Same goes for Hanley Ramirez, wtf were they thinking?

Hill is risky bc it's not clear if he can stay in form similar to the way he is now (I don't expect him to be lights out next year, but I mean like being a solid #2 guy).

I'd be fine giving up Hill bc Willis has far more experience and proven himself a lot more.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 13, 2006 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions

I am quite confident that Rich Hill

has regained his confidence at the major league level. He was just pitching nasty to finish out the season. With competent coaching and a full season to work with, he will be great, imo. He is starting to develop a change up to compliment that 92 MPH fastball and 12-6 curve. Out of all the pitchers named (Willis, Sanchez and Hill) I think that Hill has the highest ceiling.

Willis would add a key experienced lefty (that finished 2nd in Cy Young voting in 2005, Prior finished 3rd in 2003) to our rotation and the CUBS go from "iffy" to "scary".

You can never have too many LHP starters!

Good pitching always beats good hitting.....just ask Joe Torre.

by TheBeerBaron on Oct 13, 2006 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions

I'd love to get Willis without giving up Hill

I just honestly don't see it happening. It's not like we have several great position prospects we can send them. Pie is it. Giving them a deal that includes Hill could let us keep Pie if the other players were good enough. That could be good bc then we could trade Pie as part of a deal for a position player.

I just think the best thing that could happen would be to get Willis and Tejada via trade. We'd be able to get a good OF guy via FA and still have the cash to sign a pitcher like Meche.

My expectations about what actually happens are becoming really low though, so I'm trying my best to not get my hopes about.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 13, 2006 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions

Again,

the Marlins already have Anibal Sanchez, Ricky Nolasco, Scott Olsen, Josh Johnson and Renyel Pinto.....I don't see them necessarily requesting Rich Hill because if Beinfest and Hendry are as good of friends as reported, Beinfest knows how highly Hendry regards Rich Hill and their starters are quite good already. From what I have read (some one else stated this, but I have read this too,) that the Florida Marlins want a young, talented CF....which just so happens to be exactly the CUBS' bargaining strength.

That being said......Dontrelle Willis and Vernon Wells would be the best scenario, not Miguel Tejada......Tejada is only getting older (Wells is 28) and Wells brings his great defense in CF to go along with his bat. Cesar Izturis is fine at SS, I guess....

Good pitching always beats good hitting.....just ask Joe Torre.

by TheBeerBaron on Oct 13, 2006 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions

Thanks

For saving me the trouble of looking this up.

And don't forget that Beltre has played his entire career in Dodger Stadium and Safeco, two of the worst HR parks in the majors, whereas Soriano got those two seasons in Coors Light down in Arlington, which lessens the power difference a lot.

Soriano does have a little more power than Beltre. Beltre is a much better defensive player and gets on base better. Their value is almost exactly the same.

Soriano is a bum. Let someone else pay for his one good season

by Josh Timmers on Oct 12, 2006 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions

According to that list from maddog's

"credible source", Adrian Beltre is on Jim Hendry's radar....

J.P. Riccardi is not going to pay Vernon Wells...CALL HIM NOW HENDRY!!!! Don't lose another Rafael Furcal!

by TheBeerBaron on Oct 12, 2006 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions

disagree...

Soriano also played his best seasons in parks more conducive to pitching like Washington and Yankee Stadium, which is death for RH power.

And Beltre's overall numbers are inflated due to one incredible season. The rest of his numbers are flat out mediocre for a third baseman.

Soriano has had a number of very good seasons.

4 35+ home run seasons.
5 90+ RBI seasons.
5 30+ stolen base seasons.
3 40+ doubles seasons.
4 .500+ SLG seasons.
5 .800+ OPS seasons.

Beltre:

1 30+ home run season.
1 90+ RBI season.
0 30+ stolen base seasons.
0 40+ doubles seasons.
1 .500+ SLG season.
2 .800+ OPS seasons.

Neither players are OBP machines, but they are hardly similar players offensively. Take away the anomaly from Beltre and the difference is even more marked.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 12, 2006 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions

look deeper

http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/comments/2006/10/12/145815/49/32/post#here

GET SORIANO!

by CubFaninCA on Oct 12, 2006 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions

Yes, I'm well aware of the numbers

Is OPS the only non-traditional stat you're aware of?

I posted their OPS+ and EqA's, both far more accurately than OPS. Soriano has been more consistent and the better player over their careers. I mentioned this in my previous post. But the overall difference is not that big.

More numbers?

RC/27

Soriano - 5.83
Beltre - 5.26

Runs Created

Soriano - 636
Beltre - 702 (in 700+ more Abs, so they create runs at about the same pace as RC/27 shows)

WARP3

Soriano - 43.8
Beltre - 47.5 (again, 700+ more ABs)

So, yeah, they're very similar. Hell, Beltre is one of Soriano's most "Similar Batters" on B-R.Com

by VS on Oct 12, 2006 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions

funny

you should mention that

Hell, Beltre is one of Soriano's most "Similar Batters" on B-R.Com

I'm looking at that right now.

the similarity between Beltre and Soriano is almost astounding.

"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 12, 2006 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions

Beltre = feast or famine

GET SORIANO!

by CubFaninCA on Oct 12, 2006 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions

thus

you're calling Soriano feast or famine.

"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 12, 2006 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions

when did i agree w/ your boy?

GET SORIANO!

by CubFaninCA on Oct 12, 2006 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions

you didn't

but you made no statement contrarian to that point, only that Beltre was 'feast or famine' so by the transitive property, the implication becomes Soriano is as well.

"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 13, 2006 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions

Around 8th...

...and it is deceiving once you factor in Beltre's one magical season versus the rest of the crap he's been putting up.

The most similar to Soriano?

Aramis Ramirez.

Would anybody here say Adrian Beltre and Aramis Ramirez are the same player?

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 12, 2006 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions

Beltre

had a great season in 2000 at age 21 as well.

Then he had an emergency appendectomy that almost killed him and took over a year to recover from, although he continued to play in a weakened state.

Then he was mediocre, as was Soriano in Texas. Then in his free agent year, he had a huge season and tanked as soon as he signed his big contract.

And Beltre has never refused to take the field in a hissy fit like Soriano did, which indicates to me at least that Beltre has better work habits.

It's fine if you think Soriano is going to be a great player after he signs a big free agent contract. I just don't want the Cubs to be sitting with his huge contract in 2009 and listening to everyone on this board complaining what a bum he is.

Soriano is a bum. Let someone else pay for his one good season

by Josh Timmers on Oct 12, 2006 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions

But that;'s not my point...

...I don't really want Alfonso Soriano in a Cub uniform next year. I won't go nuts if he's signed, but I won't mourn things if he doesn't.

My point is that Soriano is a better hitter than Beltre and by quite a bit.

You can talk about appendectomies and hissy fits all you want, but Beltre is not the hitter nor the player, nor has he really had the production, outside of one incredible season, that Soriano has consistently produced. Outside of that aberrant 2004, Beltre's best prior season would be considered a rather mediocre Soriano year.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 13, 2006 3:43 AM CDT up reply actions

You underestimate the effect 2004...

...had on Beltre's overall numbers.

Beltre's EQR was this: 78, 81, 61, 75, 66, and then BOOM 127, then back to his usual, 71, 85.

Soriano EQR stretch is this: 72, 116, 110, 78, 92, 120.

3 years of 110+ EQR. Only two seasons sub 80 and one being his first season, with the other being his first year in Texas. Beltre 1 year of 90+ EQR, only 3 total over 80 and not by much.

I just can't agree with this. Soriano is the superior hitter.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 12, 2006 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions

perhaps find a better example

GET SORIANO!

by CubFaninCA on Oct 12, 2006 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions

Perhaps

look at the post above yours.

You keep saying Soriano is nothing like Beltre, but all evidence points the other way.

Your obsession with Soriano is irrational.

Soriano is a bum. Let someone else pay for his one good season

by Josh Timmers on Oct 12, 2006 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions

the good ol generalizers

beltre's had 4 full-time seasons where his ops has been under .730. soriano's worse full-time season was .736. all other's have been over .800.

GET SORIANO!

by CubFaninCA on Oct 12, 2006 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions

OPS

gives more credit to slugging than OBP. Beltre has had three seasons with an OBP above .350 and Soriano just barely cracked .351 this season.

Beltre was also five years younger than Soriano will be next year when he signed with Seattle.

Soriano is exactly the type of bad plate discipline slugger that the Cubs have been losing with for years. And once his speed goes (and it always does on the other side of 30, trust me) he's really going to be mediocre.

Soriano is a bum. Let someone else pay for his one good season

by Josh Timmers on Oct 12, 2006 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions

Perhaps, but he will be better than Beltre...

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 13, 2006 3:44 AM CDT up reply actions

I'd rather we sign

C-Lee than Soriano. The only problem is that we have Murton in LF. Murton hasn't played CF in a long, long time IIRC, so that would be something new. Or we could trade him instead of Pie in one of the rumored deals, but then we'd have Pie as our starting CF and who knows if he'll be a flop or not.

We'd have a hole at 2B then. Knowing Hendry, he'd sign some past his prime, way too old player to a multi-year deal and we'll be stuck with his shitty offense. Or we could just play Theriot and hope that he doesn't face too much of an offensive drop off though. Hell, we'll be stuck with Izituris at SS which sucks big time. I guess all we can hope for there is that we get A-Rod or Tejada and dumb Izituris some how.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 3:05 PM CDT reply actions

Pitching...Pitching...Pitching

If the Cubs are going to empty the vault on anyone, it should be front line starters. Durable, inning eaters. And maybe one stick. We can live without Soriano, he and his agent will be laughing all the way to the bank soon enough. Hopefully it won't be the Cubs drastically overpaying for him. If we sign any hitter it should be Carlos Lee, at least he has a real track record of production to justify a big deal.

by Nibbles on Oct 12, 2006 3:11 PM CDT reply actions

You stole my comment

j/k

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions

The Cubs should go after only one...

big-time position player: Vernon Wells. And extend him.

Other than that, platoon Jacque Jones in RF for two months with Pagan or whoever. If that doesn't work, if Pie has improved enough, bring him up.

Sign an old guy (Durham) or some old crap at second for two years. Platoon Cedeno there. Maybe he'll "get it". If not, kick his butt, and maybe Patterson will be ready.

The big money needs to be spent on pitching. One big pitcher and 1-2 No. 3-5 type guys. FA signings (although not much is out there) or trades with extensions.

Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 12, 2006 3:20 PM CDT reply actions

Murton, Pie, Soriano

would be my left to right.

As for starting pitching, don't expect more than 1 to be signed and it should be either Schmidt or Matzusaka. 3, 4, 5 will be filled by either Hill, Miller, Marshall, or Prior. IMHO.

by NO100 on Oct 12, 2006 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions

What happens to Jones?

Just going to let a guy making $5m a year sit on the bench and bitch about his playing time? I'm not sure Soriano can play right and I'd rather have C-Lee than him.

We won't get Matsuzaka. Probably not Schmidt either, he'd be cheaper than Zito, but he seems set on playing in Seattle. Miller will be resign for sure. Marshall has the best shot at being traded out of any pitcher.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions

Jones gets traded

FWIW, it's what I would do and not necessarily what I think will happen.

I think the Cubs will land one of the top 3 pitchers and I don't think that Zito is a good fit. So that leaves Schmidt and Matsuzaka. I think the Cubs are going to make a stronger push for Matsuzaka than a lot of people think. The Cubs know they need at least 1 more quality arm and Schmidt is an injury risk. In the end, I think that they will both cost about the same.

I'm not sure that Soriano can play right either, but he played left OK and he's got the arm for right. Pie in right and Soriano in center might also be a possibility. I saw on ESPN (sorry, but I forget where/when) that the Cubs believe he can play center.

I think there's a good chance that Prior won't be with the team next year. He will be traded on his "potential".

by NO100 on Oct 12, 2006 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions

I just like the idea of...

if we got Wells and got him extended of

Murton---------Wells--------Pie

That's an perennial for the next four-five years in center.

A possible All-Star in left for the next 3-4 years.

A possible superstar in right.

You know what you'll get with Wells. Murton you are fairly certain of. Pie, you can only hope. But it's a young outfield to be excited about.

Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 12, 2006 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions

And even if Pie isn't ready...

in '07 and '08, you still have Jack who would put up decent enough numbers for two years anyway.

Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 12, 2006 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions

And even if Pie isn't ready...

in '07 and '08, you still have Jack who would put up decent enough numbers for two years anyway.

Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 12, 2006 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions

If what is said about Wells

wanting Beltran type money, then I don't think the Cubs should bother with him. I do like that outfield, though Murton an All-Star? Not so sure.

by NO100 on Oct 12, 2006 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions

The problem is the Cubs

at some point are going to have to commit to someone. Yes, it is a gamble. Yes they may regret it but the top players require a commitment. That's one of my problems with Hendry, he wants to commit on the cheap.

Whether it's Vlad, Beltran, Soriano, Wells, Cabrera (in a few years), the Cubs have to say he's our guy to someone. That's the problem they have since they don't develop superstars themselves. It gets expensive to build through Free Agency. To me, the guy to commit to was Beltran. Vlad scared me a little with his back issues. I was ok losing him but the Cubs had Beltran for the taking but Hendry wouldn't commit.

by rlpete on Oct 12, 2006 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions

Whether Hendry wouldn't commit

or the Trib wouldn't commit are debateable.

Don't get me wrong, Beltran deserves Beltran type money. Wells doesn't.

by NO100 on Oct 12, 2006 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions

Agreed

Wells isn't worth Beltran numbers but neither will Soriano be worth what he is likely to get. I'm not excited about getting him either but at some point, Hendry is going to have to pay someone. Using DLee, a 1st baseman!, as the measuring stick will ensure the continued signing of Jacque Jones types. Decent players but not enough to win.

by rlpete on Oct 12, 2006 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions

no way

will Wells get Beltran money ($17 mil each for 7 years) maybe $12 or $13 at most. Murton likely won't be an all-star but he hit 20 HRs with a .303.370.462 line in his first 595 ABs as a Cub, which is a full season. I see him as a great number 2 hitter, if not a lead-off, but unfortunately none of the managerial candidates "get" that.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 12, 2006 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions

I don't think

that Wells will get that type of money either, but if those are his demands now, the process could get very ugly. If that's the case, I'd rather stay away.

by NO100 on Oct 12, 2006 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions

I just don't see how we'd get Wells

without giving up Murton or Pie. They wouldn't want Jones bc of his salary.

I honestly don't know who would take Jones unless it was part of a deal where we took on a lot of salary and had to throw him in to help balance out the numbers. That's the best you can hope for him. I don't see any deal like that happening though. The only high salary guy we will go after is Tejada. Other than him, I can't think of anyone (Wells isn't high priced yet, he makes similar to what Jones does next year).

If Wells thinks he deserves Beltran type money I'd prefer to leave him in Toronto. I'd rather trade for Tejada or A-Rod so that we can get rid of more salary to even it out.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions

for Wells

we'd likely have to give up Barrett, but Hendry likes Michael too much, and the catcher we would get in return would have to be a good enough replacement. Too bad Hendry can't swing multi-team deals anymore. when's the last one? the nomar deal? is that the only one he's done since he got here?

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 12, 2006 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions

He pulled off a great three team deal

to get us Freddie "I suck" Bynum.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions

Catcher we'd get in return???

What are you talking about? Bengie Molina has a $7M option that Riccardi has basically said in not so many words that he isn't picking up. As much as I love Michael Barrett the player and Michael Barrett the team leader, if trading him means getting Vernon Wells.....you HAVE TO DO IT! Then sign Bengie Molina....

Two Birds = One Stone!

Good pitching always beats good hitting.....just ask Joe Torre.

by TheBeerBaron on Oct 13, 2006 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions

Except I'm not ready...

to rely on two such "young" guys just like that. Murton may be a 20-30 homer guy, but next year he won't be.

And I wouldn't mind Theriot holding down second base either.

he could "prove" that he is the future. And E-Pat could be trade-bait.

Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 12, 2006 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions

We need a lot more than just Wells

to fix our offensive problem. Pagan sucks vs. lefties I believe, Restovich would be better.

I'd rather risk having Theriot at 2B than some old guy and Cedeno. Cedeno belongs in the minors and E-Pat is at least a year away I believe.

There are only two big pitchers out there, Zito and Schmidt. Plenty of second tiers though. We'd have better luck by trading.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions

yes, Pagan is not the answer

for a RF platoon with jones. he's horrible against lefties. worse than jones. JJ against righties in '06 was .303/.358/.528. that's an .886 OPS in 396 ABs. Find a good RH bat as a complement and it'd be OK. I like the Wells option if we can swing it. Murton needs to stay and I like him better than Carlos Lee. Mark Loretta might be a good option at second base and he wouldn't cost a fortune in money or years. money has to spent on reliable pitching- arms that can go deep in the game.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 12, 2006 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions

I don't know

what it might take to get Wells but Wells and Loretta plus some cheap bench help/RH platoon for Jacque would be a decent offseason for the position players.

That would leave the pitching which would probably be significantly weaker due to the Wells deal.

by rlpete on Oct 12, 2006 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions

Clearly...

our bench is a big issue. I think resigning Bynum and reacquiring Neifi are musts. I've also heard that Julio Franco might be available in the right deal (Z?).

Sorry, I had nothing to really add. I want pitching, Vernon Wells, Soriano, C. Lee, and don't really know how to prioritize it all.

Extreme hopes are born from extreme misery. -Bertrand Russell

by thekansasian on Oct 12, 2006 4:30 PM CDT reply actions

I'd like to see Soriano at SS and Theriot at 2nd

Theriot should have 2nd base next year. Whatever you might say about Soriano, I think Ryan's got the moxie to be given the spot once he thrashes spring training next year.

Good night, what else could he do last year to prove his worth than what he did the last month of the season? He's young, hungry and yes, he's got the need for seasoning. But he did a WHALE of a better job overall than anyone else did.

Unless they find someone better, that's who should be there.

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Oct 12, 2006 7:10 PM CDT reply actions

Soriano at SS?

A position where he's played ten major league games, and none since 2000?

I'd rather see Theriot at SS, if it's those two.

by Al Yellon on Oct 12, 2006 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions

Soriano doesn't have the defense

to play 2B let alone SS. We'd put him at 2B bc it would allow us to keep Murton at LF and bc Theriot also has the potential to move to SS.

If we did get Soriano and put him at 2B, Hendry would be a dumbass and play Izitirus at SS while sending Theriot down to Iowa to practice SS all next year most likely.

I'd rather trade for Tejada to play SS and keep Theriot at 2B.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions

The more I think about it

the more this is becoming an idea I really like. We should have traded for him last year when it would have only cost us Prior and K-Pat.

It would give us a lineup of:

1B Lee
2B Theriot
SS Tejada
3B A-Ram
LF Murton
CF ????
RF Jones/LH platoon guy
C Barrett

Baltimore would want mainly pitching, but they'd probably ask for Pie bc he's our top prospect. We'd have to sign someone to most likely a one or two year deal. We could move Murton to CF, Jones/LH platoon guy to LF, and sign Nomar to play RF. He was going to play RF for Cleveland if the LA deal fell through.

We then could focus on pitching getting pitching.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 12, 2006 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions

If that's the case....signing Dave Roberts

is the least of our worries ;) I love THE RIOT too, but let's not put his plaque in Cooperstown next to Ryno's just yet.......Cedeno looked great in his first 100 AB's too, you know.

Good pitching always beats good hitting.....just ask Joe Torre.

by TheBeerBaron on Oct 13, 2006 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions

Roberts is a good option,

but I'd rather go after someone with more power, even if it means moving Murton to CF and Jones to LF like I've mentioned before. Huff would probably be our best bet bc he's the youngest out of all the guys that fit the RF or CF criteria and he has considerable power. He was in a slump for a while and the trade to Houston sent his average down, but his SLG went up and OBP went decreased far less than his average.

I'm not sure if Houston plans on going after him or not, I guess it depends on if they C-Lee or Soriano and have any cash left.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 13, 2006 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions

If you have a lineup that contains

Derrek Lee, Miguel Tejada, Aramis Ramirez, Jacque Jones and Michael Barrett.......a power hitting CFer is the LEAST of your concerns.......a high OBP guy, like Dave Roberts would fit perfectly.

Good pitching always beats good hitting.....just ask Joe Torre.

by TheBeerBaron on Oct 13, 2006 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions

Just those 5 guys could hit 150 HR.

Good pitching always beats good hitting.....just ask Joe Torre.

by TheBeerBaron on Oct 13, 2006 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions

Probably closer to 130...

Barrett's never hit over 20 if memory serves, and Jones better not get the PAs next year to get to 30 home runs, I want him platooned.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 13, 2006 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions

Jones should get platooned

hopefully the next manager will be smart enough to realize this.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 13, 2006 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions

This also means...

... there has to be an appropriate body on the roster TO platoon with him -- and I'm not so sure Michael Restovich is that guy.

I'd also like to see whoever the new manager is, go with an 11-man pitching staff. 12-man staffs give you ZERO flexibility on the bench.

by Al Yellon on Oct 13, 2006 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions

If we run out of cash

bc Hendry lands a lot of talent one way or another, Restovich would be the cheapest option. I imagine his numbers would drop from their Iowa level, but I don't see how he could be any worse than against lefties than .230 Jones.

We could do with an 11-man pitching staff if our starters didn't suck as much.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Oct 13, 2006 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions