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A Devil Ray perspective on Lou Piniella

I have been asked by Al here at BCB to write a short diary about my experiences with Lou Piniella, and because Al has always been very nice to me when we chat on the SB Nation email list, I told him it would be my pleasure to do this for him.

First off, I guess that Sweet Lou is setting his sights on the Cubs. Media reports have him heading to Chicago because Jim Hendry likes his "winning reputation". The exact same thing that Hendry does not have. As an outsider, I must wonder why he has a job.

I am quite well-versed with Al's opinion on Lou, as looking at his posts from the last couple days don't really leave much to the imagination, ha ha. I must give him credit, he is a very forward-thinking person.

When Lou was hired by the Devil Rays in October of 2002 you could not find a person in Tampa Bay that would have said a bad thing about him. For a franchise coming off of consecutive 100 loss seasons under the disastrous reign of Hal McRae, seeing the commitment by thrifty owner Vince Naimoli on getting such a big name to manage the team was seen as a coup.

The Tampa Bay area had a special love of Lou. As a native of Tampa, the Bay Area had been behind him and his exploits since he began his career with the Royals. Along with Tony LaRussa, the Bay Area had always been proud of Lou's accomplishments for as an area without a team, he represented something for us to be proud of.

And there was a lot to be proud of with Lou. He was an excellent baseball player with several championships in New York, and had a great reputation as one of the finest managers in the game with New York, Cincinnati, and Seattle.

With all of that in the past, you can understand why the area was elated to get him back. For a franchise with so little hope, so little to appreciate through six years, Piniella represented the pinnacle of our hopes.

Add to this the fact that the Rays beat out the New York Mets for the right to hire Piniella, that we shoved it to Newsday and other New York tabloids spitting on our pride as a franchise. The acquisition of Piniella was arguably the most important in our team's history, and even naive little me believed it would turn out well, that Lou would be the one to bring credibility and a winning attitude to Tampa Bay. How wrong I was.

The Lou era started out great on Opening Day 2003. The Rays produced a late rally against the Boston Red Sox on the night of the 31st, culminating in a walkoff home run by Carl Crawford to start Piniella's Tampa Bay tenure on the right track. Reveling in the great start of a young team was incredible. And even though the Rays fizzled over the course of the season like you knew they would, there was something different about that year. There was hope. The great rookie season of Rocco Baldelli, Carl Crawford's breakthrough, Aubrey Huff's amazing year, among others, contributed to a feeling of hope. In fact, one of the funny things about that year was Lou saying that he would get his hair dyed any color the team chose if they won three in a row. Well, when the moment finally came, here was the result:

The Rays won their final game that season to break a string of 100 loss seasons and finish 63-99, and even though that represented stagnant progress over the inaugural season, there seemed to be hope for the first time since the franchise took the field.

And that hope continued over into the 2004 season. The Rays excited the fan base yet again, bringing home another Tampa native, Tino Martinez. Despite a slow start, the Rays rebounded with a jaw-dropping 30-10 run in the middle of the season that took the team from 20 games under .500 to the cusp of the wild card race in midseason. Naturally, Lou was lauded for his miracle-working that year. Hope sprung eternal. Attendance rose, there was even talk of....playoffs. It was that delusion-ally wonderful.

Even though that run proved to be a massive fluke by a relatively mediocre team, the Rays rebounded in their final series at Detroit and won their final game to finish with a franchise-record 70 wins. We went into the offseason with genuine hope.

However this is when the reality of what Lou Piniella did to this team set in. Before he agreed to sign on with Tampa Bay two years before, Piniella had a verbal commitment from ownership that they were committed to winning and would spend money to back it up. Thus far, this commitment was lacking, and all of Tampa Bay was behind Piniella's subtle hints of unhappiness at ownership's lack of monetary commitment.

Every few months or so, when a losing streak came about, Lou would not hold back on his opinions. He would often call out management for being cheap, and while at the start it was refreshing to hear him take the stance of your average fan and go to bat for us, after a while it became old, and quite honestly distracting to the team.

It was during the 2004-05 offseason that I, and many other Rays fans, began to realize that Lou was perhaps part of the problem. Jorge Cantu was one of many young players that showed that they possibly held a future in Tampa Bay. Over the final two months of the 2004 season, he hit .301/.341/.462. So what does Lou, in-cahoots with the wondrous mind of Chuck LaMar, do? Why, go out and sign Roberto Alomar to start in front of him, despite the fact that Alomar hadn't been good for four years.

And instead of letting a young fringe outfield prospect like Matt Diaz or Joey Gathright, either of which MAY have had a future in St. Pete at that point, play the outfield in place of the injured Baldelli, what does he do? Advocate the signing of Danny Bautista.

Luckily both Alomar and Bautista retired during spring training, and Cantu went on to be the starting second baseman that year, posting 28 home runs and 117 RBIs, having a very good year offensively at second base while setting a team RBI record. Gathright did not have the same success, partially because he was blocked from playing more often because of Lou's dead end thinking, I.E. giving more playing time to the likes of Alex Sanchez, Chris Singelton, and Damon Hollins.

Over the course of the 2005 season, this pattern became more evident. A figure began to emerge of a bitter, vindictive man trying to take the ship down with him. His attacks against management, however deserved, did not do a service to his team, his continued bias against young players in favor of crappy veterans was appalling, and he sold his team down the river numerous times.

Looking back, this trend probably started in late 2004, when he mishandled top prospect B.J. Upton by leaving him to sit on the bench in favor of the likes of Geoff Blum. This most egregious example of awful decision-making was to be compounded the next season.

I can remember a few particularly insane instances from 2005. One time, he fined his leading hitter Jonny Gomes a large sum and suspended him for one game, draconian punishment. His transgression? Sleeping a little late.

Another instance came during a period in August of 2005. He repeatedly refused to put in lefty pitcher Jon Switzer, instead leaving him to rot for 10 day stretches at a time, choosing to put in dead end relievers like Joe Borowski (familiar to many a Cubs fan), who completely turned to crap after a short little scoreless innings streak. He did the same thing with Tim Corcoran a bit before. His constant refusal to try and find out more about his young players in favor of going with the veterans he knew were bad was insane, especially for a team going nowhere and that is building for the future.

His insane desire to finish with 70 wins instead of 65 corrupted his mind. He tried to start Scott Kazmir twice in the final week, despite his innings pitched total being far above previous levels and his final scheduled start being an excellent one. He was eventually forced out of the idea by management, but the fact that he would try to corrupt a pitcher by pushing him past the limit after he had already accepted a buyout for the following year was just incredible.

Instances like this just plagued the entire second half. The Rays finished with a winning record after the All-Star break, yet that likely came in spite of him. They were awful in the first half, and after a sweep in Pittsburgh at the hands of the Pirates, he said, and I quote "I do not take responsibility for this", as part of one of his anti-management ramblings. The fact that he sold his team down the river instead of sticking up for them, doing it all year with certain players, and then wanting to bask in the glow of a winning second half made me sick.

Towards the end, before he accepted a buyout from the new ownership group coming aboard that offseason, he just started trashing Stu Sternberg and his group of investors, slated to take over the next month. Despite the fact that it was Naimoli who screwed him over, he questioned the new ownership group's desire to win because they wanted to protect the team's prospects rather than let them be prostituted for an extra win.

His last year at the helm, Lou just became a bitter, vindictive, self-destructing old man. I am not blaming him for the Rays losing, that clearly is not his fault, but he did not help, and if he were allowed to continue, I suspect that the condition of our future might look even worse. His stubborn refusal to be a forward-thinker, and his inability to take the heat for his players were my lasting impressions of his tenure. In no way should this man ever be allowed anywhere near a young team.

This column by my good friend Jim Wisinski says it better than I ever could. He explains point by point the reasons that most Devil Ray fans who followed the team closely were relieved when he accepted a buyout. I think he could be successful with the right team, but a restraining order should be issued limiting him to keeping a certain distance away from young players. So hide away Felix Pie and Matt Murton, and if you had any hope of salvaging Mark Prior's arm, it may have just gone out the window.

I don't hate Lou, as much as I despised his managing during his final season. He was a gentleman the few times I met him, he means well, and he still is a local product. But he just isn't a good manager for a lot of teams. He is, essentially, a white Dusty Baker if that simplifies things. The two are opposites in demeanor, but their managerial decision-making is very much alike. Why Jim Hendry would want him, I do not know.

I personally have nothing against the Cubs. They have been my brother's favorite team every since the days of Don Zimmer, before Tampa Bay got a team, and when he would watch them on WGN with my grandfather. Unfortunately, he passed away 13 years ago, but the Cubs remain his favorite team. But as a Rays fan, he knows all too well the perils that Lou Piniella brings to a team.

Why the Cubs would hire Piniella over Joe Girardi, I do not know, but as any Devil Ray fan could tell you, you are in for a long year. My sympathies Cubs fans, no one deserves this. Best of luck over the following years, you will need it.

-Patrick Kennedy writes about the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for DRaysBay

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Oh, I forgot one more thing.........
If you have not listened to him on FOX, or cannot tell it otherwise, Lou is quite fond of alcohol. He routinely had it sitting in his office, open, in St. Pete, and often sounded drunk in his annual segment on the Rays Pregame Show. Make whatever joke you want about how drinking is a prerequisite to being the Rays manager, but I think Lou drank as an extracurricular activity.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Oct 13, 2006 1:15 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

it can be his little homage to Harry Caray.
although I think Harry could have drank sweet lou under the table, and then gone out and broadcasted a game.
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Oct 13, 2006 1:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

....god willing
he's changed his ways if he's hired.....that article isn't very encouraging either.
"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 13, 2006 1:20 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Jim Hendry...
please take some eye drops and read this

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 13, 2006 1:59 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This one goes out to Santos Sorrow:
I sure hope Bochy or Girardi shows up at Hendry's door in a Tuxedo with a bottle of pink champagne and a couple baker's dozens of Krispy Kremes. They need to do SOMETHING to impress him and get him off all of this  frightening Piniella talk.
Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Oct 13, 2006 2:14 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

and furthermore...
if Phil Rogers thinks something is a good idea, then it is CLEARLY an egregious error in judgment.

I think the best manager would actually be Bizarro-Rogers (me not hire Piniella). Or we could just hire Rogers, and do the exact opposite of his advice. It worked for George on Seinfeld.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Oct 13, 2006 2:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

After reading all this...
...geez it's hard to defend the idea of Piniella coming to Chicago.

I just spent all day essentially doing just that, even though I want Girardi over all of the candidates.

We could very well be doomed with Piniella at the helm if even half of what this guy wrote is true.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 13, 2006 4:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Someone's trying to talk some sense into Lou....
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-061012cubs,1,56493.story?coll=cs-cub s-headlines

"Piniella, 63, has told intimates he would like the Cubs job, although it is known that at least two close friends have been trying to dissuade him from taking it because the team is so far from winning."

by Peoria Matt on Oct 13, 2006 5:39 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yet another reason to pass on Piniella:
Noted Chicago broadcaster and village idiot, Ken "Hick" Harrelson thinks that the Cubs should definitely hire Lou Piniella, which would, according to him, give the two Chicago teams the "two best managers" in baseball.

I tell you, I don't see it.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Oct 13, 2006 6:12 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Plus
The fact that Harrelson considers Guillen to be one of the best managers in baseball speaks volumes.

by gauchodirk on Oct 13, 2006 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great diary.
I agree 100%. I've been attending the games of the D-Rays AAA affiliate Durham Bulls for 6 years now, and I can't tell you how frustrating it was to watch so many potential major league stars come through Durham, only to arrive in Tampa where they were abused, misused, or underutilized by Piniella. Chuck LaMar deserves a lot of blame for that, too, but Piniella appeared to have no desire to develop the young players.

by jamie on Oct 13, 2006 7:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Very
Unnerving if true - honestly do not know much about Pinella's style, but I could very well see him as Baker 2.0 with the Cubs. I do not care for his track record with his handling of the younger players in TB.

I also agree comepletely with a lot of others who have posted opinions before about Lou, that is he IS the man Hendry wants then the Cubs better be putting together a $125 million dollar team or it will be 2006 all over again.

Cast my vote with Girardi for sure now.

by airweino on Oct 13, 2006 10:24 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Call me Shallow Hal,
but after seeing that fru fru looking picture of Lou and knowing that Bochy was born in France I want Girardi even more.  Lou sounds like a sissy on his telecasts.  I, like others here, was surprised at how soft he sounded.  We definitely don't need Bochy the surrendering Frenchmen.
I know, I know.  Who cares about any of this stuff as long as they win.  Well, I also think that Girardi is the better long term manager and not just because of this trivial stuff.
The dumbest people I know are those who know it all.

by madog93 on Oct 13, 2006 11:12 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What a bigot
And Bochy was born in France because his father was stationed in the Army there, serving his country.  He grew up in Virginia.
Soriano is a bum. Let someone else pay for his one good season

by Josh77 on Oct 13, 2006 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

get a grip
I said call me Shallow Hal.  It wasn't supposed to be taken seriously.  Why is everybody so uptight about little stuff?  How does anything I said make me a bigot.  You don't even know me, and if you did I honestly don't think you would think of me as a bigot.  Opinionated certainly, but not a bigot.  
I am in the military too, and have been to France.  Believe me, I have experienced how rudely they treat American citizens in France.  In spite of this though, I was very polite to everyone I met.  Not all of them were rude, but for the most part they were.  You could just tell that they wanted us to leave.  
That being said, I still think Piniella sounds like a sissy on the air, and he looks like a pissed off puppy wearing a bonnet in that picture.  Does that make me a bigot too?
The dumbest people I know are those who know it all.

by madog93 on Oct 13, 2006 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please Tell Me You're Kidding
If you're not joking or being deliberately obtuse, I don't know how to help you.  I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences in France, but when I served in the Army in the late 80s, I had great experiences there.  Perhaps a little understanding of their culture would help, not to mention the retirement of words like sissy from your vocabulary.  If you act like an ugly American, and I can't judge that since I don't know you personally, Europeans are going to view you that way.  

There's plenty of reasons to be against Piniella and Bochy as our next manager without resorting to juvenile hyperbole.  

by TMOX on Oct 13, 2006 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not kidding
I have spent a lot of time in Europe, and for the most part love it.  I have been all over Germany and had countless good experiences there.  The people are very friendly and I would gladly go back in a heartbeat.  I have traveled a little in Italy and thoroughly liked it as well, but I have to admit I was surprised at how dirty the majority of the places I went were.  I have been to other places in Europe as well and won't list them all, but when I was in France I got the cold shoulder.  I was there in 2004, not the late 80's so maybe that has something to do with it.  To answer your question, no I am not an ugly American when I travel abroad.  I have been out in public in foreign countries with people that are.  Believe me it is very embarrasing.  I have even found myself apologizing for their behavior.  I try to a learn a little of the language of the country that I am in and at least be able to exchange pleasantries with people.  Most Europeans speak English as a second language, and if you at least make an effort to speak their language they will speack English with you.  
One really good experience I had at Wrigley in 2002 was when I sat in a row in front of some Germans visiting Chicago.  They did not have a clue about baseball, but they wanted to experience Wrigley Field.  I spent almost the entire game explaining the rules of the game to them and explaining what was going on.  It was a lot of fun.  
As far as using the word "sissy" - Who Cares?  People are way to thin skinned if a word like that offends them.  Would it be better if I called his voice wimpy?  If that did offend you I apologize.  I didn't mean to offend anyone.  
The dumbest people I know are those who know it all.

by madog93 on Oct 13, 2006 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm surprised
that with your attitude you didn't get treated better while in France.  The comments you make are refreshing (about learning a bit of the language, trying to speak it with them).  I've spent quite a bit of time in Western Europe myself, where I'm fluent in French and German, and I've had no problems.  One question, though- were you in Paris when you received this treatment>  From my experiences, the Parisians can be very difficult.  You almost have to apologize to them for not speaking french (in French of course) before they will even begin to be civil.  I would recommend Provence, Nice especially.  The south is a lot more laid back than the north.

Just a thought!

Forget about '07. Let's wait until 2008!

by secdelahc on Oct 13, 2006 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've heard that too...
...about Paris.  And yes, the most rude people were in Paris.  The other place I was where I thought the people would be better was Metz.  Some of the people there were alright, but Metz really isn't that far from Paris.  I have some friends who went to West France where the D-Day invasion took place and the people there were friendly from what I have been told.  This is basically out in the country though.  I think that most people who live out in the country are typically friendly regardless of what country they are in.  I'm sure a strong arguement could be made that people in Chicago are rude.  Of course that wouldn't mean that everyone in Chicago is rude.  
The dumbest people I know are those who know it all.

by madog93 on Oct 13, 2006 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Touche
about the Chicago rule.  I live in Detroit and would actually argue that most Detroiters are rude.

Seriously, though, consider any one of the larger cities in Provence (well, maybe not Marseilles, it's kind of dumpy) the next time you pla a European trip.  Nice, St-Tropez, Cannes, Toulon- I guarantee you will have a better experience.  Plus, the natural scenery is so much better than in the north.  There's a lot of rolling hills and mountains, and also, of course, the Mediterranean.

Forget about '07. Let's wait until 2008!

by secdelahc on Oct 13, 2006 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jeez guys
Get a room.

by NO100 on Oct 13, 2006 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Metz
I was stationed close to Metz, so that's where the vast majority of my time in France was spent.  I try to spend a lot of time in the European countryside when I'm over there, so perhaps that's why I'm less acquainted with rude behavior.  I don't know about Parisians, though; it's kind of the New York City of France, and just like in that city, I've found that the people are obnoxious on the surface but turn out to be very cool once you get to know them.  As anybody who's been to NYC very often realizes, there are some New Yorkers who will never grow on you, and the same holds for snobby Parisian idiots.

As far as sissy, I'm very thick-skinned about words, but I'd prefer to keep a word that is almost synonymous with 'queer' out of the vernacular.  I've got a lot of gay friends, and I find it difficult to hear (considering how many of them could wipe the floor with the gay bashers, it's not a very good descriptor anyway).  I realize you were just being flip, but like I said, it's kind of a sore point with me.  

Regardless, I never want to see Piniella in a Cubs uniform unless he's playing for a Men's Senior Fastpitch team.  

by TMOX on Oct 13, 2006 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

my apologies again,
I honestly did not mean the word to be synonomous with queer.  I used it because I think his voice sounds very meek and wimpy for a guy that throws his kind of temper tantrums.  I expected him to sound kind of gruff.  
The dumbest people I know are those who know it all.

by madog93 on Oct 13, 2006 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've got a grip
Don't know about you though.

I just love how people can make "jokes" over the internet to a bunch of people they don't know and then expect that everyone should just know they meant the exact opposite of what they just said.

How do you know I wasn't just joking with you, huh?

Sorry, but I have no indication that you were joking.  Honestly, I really still don't.

And judging a man's character by the place they were born is pretty much the definition of bigotry, isn't it?  So I guess that's what you said that was bigoted.

Sorry you're so sensitive.

Soriano is a bum. Let someone else pay for his one good season

by Josh77 on Oct 13, 2006 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was called a bigot
I am not being sensitive.  Being called a bigot is a pretty serious accusation. I don't feel bad for anything that I said.  Did you bother to read anything else.  I did also say that I did not intend to offend anyone and that if I did I apologized.  I don't truly judge Bochy on where he was born and I also said at the end that the stuff I talked about was trivial.  I was merely giving irrelevant reasons as to why I don't want Piniella or Bochy.  None of these reasons really mattered.  I just think that Girardi is the right guy for the job.  We have heard over and over again why Girardi is the right guy for the job from a baseball standpoint.  If what I said really bothered you that much then I would say the you are the sensitive one.
The dumbest people I know are those who know it all.

by madog93 on Oct 13, 2006 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK, everyone...
... take a deep breath and let it go, OK?

by Al on Oct 13, 2006 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

France....
....is a hellhole for Americans, no doubt. My wife is from there and we travel back and forth atleast 2 times a year. The rudest most arrogantly disgusting people I've ever met, were French. It's sad cause I love most of France, but the people are juvenile when it comes to Americans, that's just the plain truth. 2 of my Wife's brothers (she has 5) won't have anything to do with her because she's married to an American.

by escapegoat on Oct 13, 2006 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And for every bad experience you have
I can probably counter with a good one.  It's not a national thing, but a personal thing.  Just as we have those in this country who are rude to foreigners.

However, I've already argued some of this in the above posts, so I won't reiterate myself.

Sorry, Al, I'm puttingg it to rest now, but I couldn't resist commenting on this one.

Forget about '07. Let's wait until 2008!

by secdelahc on Oct 13, 2006 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is a great commentary
And gives a million reasons why Piniella is all wrong for the Cubs.  Could we win the World Series with Piniella?  Sure, it's possible.  It's also possible that we could win with Dusty staying too, but I don't think either possibility is more likely to get us there.

So can I ask you what you think of Joe Maddon?  He was awfully popular in Anaheim.

Soriano is a bum. Let someone else pay for his one good season

by Josh77 on Oct 13, 2006 11:34 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I honestly like Joe
Even though we regressed in W-L record last year, that was mostly due to the slew of trades that sent Julio Lugo, Aubrey Huff, etc. packing for prospects. I like him a lot. He makes some of the same dumbfounding in-game managing decisions as Lou and most managers, but he still gives the young players a chance to go out on the diamond and show what they have, rather than trying to plug in some not-even-mediocre veteran to take their spots, like what Lou would have done.

Maddon is much better than Lou simply because he is a forward-thinker. Where Lou would have gone completely insane and blasted ownership for being cheap after the trades this year, Maddon sucked it up, realized that one loss now means two wins in the future, and was able to go along with the plan in place and deal with it. He didn't complain, he just went along with it because he could think progressively.

And while some fans don't seem to like him because his comments to the media convey, in their opinion, a lack of him caring about winning games, he really is just trying to keep a positive face on things and protect his players, not just go out and use the media to trash his team and sell them down the river, which is what Lou always did.

His positive demeanor, his ability to think beyond the present (something that a lot of managers lack), his good relationship with the team, and his general common sense are a refreshing draft of fresh air from previous years. He isn't perfect, but management really got their hiring of him right.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Oct 13, 2006 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think
the Angels lost a little something when Joe Maddon left.  Not that Ron Roenicke didn't do a good job, but he just didn't have the relationship with Scioscia that Maddon had.

The Angels used to be incredible about the correct time to call a pitchout.  That, I think, was Maddon's doing.  They regressed in that area this season, which leads me to conclude Maddon was doing it.

I really hope he succeeds down there.  There is a ton of great young talent in St. Petersburg.  You guys are just really in the wrong division, but you already know that.

Soriano is a bum. Let someone else pay for his one good season

by Josh77 on Oct 13, 2006 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great
exactly what I was afraid of. How do we get a copy of this diary to Hendry?
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Oct 13, 2006 11:47 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Cub email addresses...
... as I have noted, are generally of the form...

firstinitiallastname (at) cubs (dot) com

You want to send it to him? Go ahead!

by Al on Oct 13, 2006 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lou Piniella, Cubs Manager - a Writers Best Friend
A well written and interesting point of view that does nothing to dispell what I, and many others know about the man.

However, I for one am looking forward to the Cubs Fandom Lou Piniella hate-fest that will commence the day Jim Hendry announces his hiring.  

There is no question that the writing skills of many passionate Cubs fans were improved during the Dusty Baker era.  Their anti-Baker manifestos and diatribes at this blog, and others, made for interesting and entertaining reading over the past couple years.  

I expect nothing less when Lou takes over and begins to alienate the fanbase with his antics, weird lineups and drinking habits. At least Dusty had a one year honeymoon with Cubs fans; Piniella should expect none, giving us blog writers even more time to sharpen our anti-Lou wit.

Chicagoland English teachers rejoice, Sweet Lou is coming to town!

by JFCubFan on Oct 13, 2006 11:50 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You are correct
This may sound stupid, but you are 100% correct.  I'm writing about the Bears now on my blog, and they're so good there's practically nothing to write about.  No notable weaknesses, excellent head coaching, tremendous depth at every position, first in offense, first in defense, perfect special teams.  Who wants to read a Love-fest every day? or a Lovie-fest, if you will.

Of course, I'd take those problems in a second for the Cubs.  So good there's nothing to write about.

There's also the reverse scenario, like this year's Cubs.  They were so bad, it's like beating the same dead horse day after day.  

by MikeJ on Oct 13, 2006 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just Remember....
that the Devil Rays situation is completely different from the situation the Cubs currently find themselves in.  I completely agree that Lou Piniella would not be the guy to hire if the Cubs were a small market team that was going to consist only a young, unproven players and basically had no chance to compete now.  This is not the situation we're in now, so don't sweat it.  I don't doubt for one minute everything said about Piniella in this diary.  But he was wrong for that job from day one, and after a while it showed.  Piniella wants to win now, and so do I.  
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Oct 13, 2006 12:25 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good Persuasive Writing
But at the end of your article that's all I see. Yes in the matter of several years Lou made several mistakes. He questioned management a little too much(but if your name is Girardi we will forgive this). And with a team with a lot of young players he tried to put a little experience on the field. Oh yeah, he fined a guy for sleeping "a little" late. Well how late was it? Had it happened in the past? Were there any work ethic issues on a team full of youngsters? Come on. And then you just dismiss all accomplishments he had there because you don't like him.

For all the junk I hear on this site about stats, you guys sure aren't practicing what you preach. Like it or not, Lou is a winner. Joe Girardi might be. Bruce Bochy is not. Now, who do you want?

Kyle

by Kyle Turney on Oct 13, 2006 12:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What Patrick
wrote isn't the damning part, what is damning is that article, like it or not.
"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 13, 2006 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reply

Like it or not, Lou is a winner.

Perhaps the most maddening baseball comment I consistently hear.  The "So and so is a winner".

Piniella was lucky to have great talent everywhere but Tampa.  And what a shock, Tampa was the only place where he didn't win.  All managers, good or bad, untimately are at the mercy of their players.  If they're good, the manager is a genius.  If they're bad, the manager gets most of the blame.

Anyway.  Piniella is without a doubt a horrible manager who has no concept of stats or how to handle a pitching staff? Sound familiar?

by VS on Oct 13, 2006 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good points
I can see easily how you differ with my line of thinking, but allow me a rebuke.

His questioning management over and over again, while something that a lot of fans liked and that nearly everyone agreed with, was a detriment to the team towards the end. It was Lou's way of hogging the spotlight for his own self-pleasure, and was a distracting influence to the team, negatively affecting their ability to play at their best on the field every day. To complain and drop subtle hints every now and then is fine, to be bitching to the print scribes every two weeks gets very old.

There are two sides to this experience fold. To put guys like Tino Martinez on the field, productive veteran players that have good rapports with the team's young players, is fine. However there is a clear line between playing productive veterans like Martinez, and crappy veterans with nothing to offer like Jose Cruz. In the latter option, all you are doing is taking away playing time from younger players that want to prove themselves to satisfy your perceptions in blood lust for a few extra wins.

As for the sleeping incident, it was an isolated incident, he is known to have great work ethic and he was one of the most productive players that year. It was a draconian punishment, undeserved for Jonny, and something that went to his pattern of dislike of him.

And let me further elaborate on that point. In 2005, Gomes was putting up monster numbers as a prospect for the Rays' Triple A affiliate. Yet, despite a clear pattern of production and a season-ending injury to Rocco Baldelli, he was constantly passed over for promotion, at one point for Reggie Taylor, the epitome of unproductive, crappy veteran players that get playing time over youngsters under Lou.

Even after he was called up and was having a monster second half, not once did Lou ever say anything positive about him. Instead, it was a steady stream of "we need to temper our enthusiasm" every day. He gave Jonny the shaft, and only after it became painfully apparent that Gomes was more productive than any of his precious veterans did Lou bump him up from the depths of the order into a respectable spot, and even then he was often no higher than fifth or sixth.

It was this constant pattern of poor managing that is not Devil Ray-centric, but something that is a great problem in principle.

And I really think you misstate what I said. Despite all of that, I don't dislike or hate Lou. I actually like him quite a bit. He is a great source of pride for my hometown, and he makes me proud to be from Tampa Bay. He was an excellent player, and is a great figure in baseball. With that said, he is just not a good manager and someone that should not be in the dugout.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Oct 13, 2006 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough but...
I was in Seattle and saw a Mariners team that was very successful with a questionable amount of talent. They executed well. To further prove the point look at how much their roster changed when Lou left (not much) and how much their record changed (a lot). I believe the Cubs are more similar right now to the Mariners of the 90's than the D Rays.

I would still prefer Girardi over Piniella. That being said I think we are lucky that there are two quality guys out there. I'm not convinced that either guy is wrong or is a bad manager.

Kyle

by Kyle Turney on Oct 13, 2006 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the other hand.......
One could argue that the Seattle teams of the 1990s with A-Rod, Griffey, Edgar Martinez, Randy Johnson, and many other great supporting players underachieved. With the amount of talent that those teams had, you would have expected them to reach the World Series once.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Oct 13, 2006 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point exactly
The only one of those that was there in 2001 was Edgar(past his prime). In fact Griffey was gone before Lou even got there. There is a misnomer out there that Lou is only good if he has stars. But most of the 2001 Mariners were still there in 2002 after he left and they were far less than stars without him.
Kyle

by Kyle Turney on Oct 13, 2006 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reply

and saw a Mariners team that was very successful with a questionable amount of talent.

There was nothing questionable about the talent of most Mariners teams in the 90s.  They were very good, in spite of Lou.

by VS on Oct 13, 2006 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rebuttal
In defense of Sweet Lou who did indeed sleep-walk during his three years managing in his backyard in St. Pete, the Devil Rays really, really, really, really, really suck.  They literally have never had any pitching outside the recent emergence of Scott Kazmir.  Hard to win when you have no pitching, a puny payroll and go up against the Yanks, Red Sox and Blue Jays 40 times a season.  Sweet Lou wanted to go back home and kick up his feet for awhile.  He got his wish, and the results were disastrous for all concerned.  

I actually had the misfortune to go inside Tropicana Field one time.  Talk about a bare bones concrete dump.  I'd be very shocked if the Devil Rays stay in Tampa.  Either that franchise moves, or they wind up closing down operations altogether.  

by BlueMike on Oct 13, 2006 12:48 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This is
one of the signs of the apoclypse if I'm not mistaken.....

Perkins, we've got our show back.

"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 13, 2006 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My thoughts
exactly.  So, when does it air?
Forget about '07. Let's wait until 2008!

by secdelahc on Oct 13, 2006 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll have to
catch up with him (Perkins), it's like God has given me new breath.
"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 13, 2006 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Keep us posted
:)
Forget about '07. Let's wait until 2008!

by secdelahc on Oct 13, 2006 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aaaand...
after a brief respite, the storm has resumed blowing, albeit with somewhat lessened ferocity. You might want to stay inside people, and if you must venture outdoors, please wear ponchos, because the torrential rains of Mike63's verbal diarrhea are sure to be intense.

by Perkins on Oct 13, 2006 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

do you think
he got a new wheel?

by 10 14 23 26 on Oct 13, 2006 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

from the looks of it
Yes...more or less he ripped off a three year old's big wheel for more room for more intelligent ideas.
"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 13, 2006 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I bet...
8 out of the 10 slots on his wheel say IZTURIS!

by 10 14 23 26 on Oct 13, 2006 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm, we'll have to see
If it's him, he finally learned how to spell 'rebuttal.'

by Perkins on Oct 13, 2006 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well
As much as I enjoy listening to that simplistic lecture on how both my team and my ballpark suck, let I remind you that I said at least twice over the course of that piece that Lou was not the reason the Rays lost. During the course of losing, which was inevitable, he displayed awful managing skills compounding the situation, and the team would have been worse off had he been allowed to continue.

His refusal to take the blame for any of his mistakes, his blindsided attacks on his own players, his dumbfounding inability to get his priorities in line with that of the team's direction are indicative of an overall problem with him as the manager. Whether you are in St. Pete, New York, Chicago, Seattle, or Cincinnati, that doesn't matter. If you continue to display the negative characteristics described above, you will not have success.

It is not a 'Devil Ray thing', it is a 'Lou thing'.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Oct 13, 2006 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Devil Rays have a direction?
That's a joke, right?  Seriously, that franchise has been horribly mis-managed into the ground.  The egotistical new ownership group should shut up and hand the reins over to Gerry Hunsicker permanently.  They have no clue what they are doing.  And I'm sorry, but Tropicana Field is an embarrassment to professional sports.  It's not your fault or the fault of Devil Rays fans.  Rather it's the fault of Bud the Dud Selig being foolish enough to allow expansion back in 1998.  The D'Rays need to move to a city who wants them and who will subsidize development of an adequate ballpark.  If they can't get either, then their future is surely doomed.  Those whiz kid New York financiers who bought that team won't stand for a sea of red ink for too long.  

And I don't mean this to be a heartbreaker, but B.J. Upton is a bust. Delmon Young is the real deal, but not Upton.  

by BlueMike on Oct 13, 2006 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The argument from ignorance
Clearly you do not know of what you speak. The Devil Rays have quite possibly the best farm system in baseball, as Jim Callis of Baseball America has stated many times, and are running into problems because they have too many prospects.

Where you get the impression that the new ownership group is egotistical, I have no idea. They have made strides in setting up new programs in the community to foster fan support, have poured $10 million into ballpark renovations, have effectively overhauled the previous front office, and have actually got a plan for the future. Andrew Friedman is quite perhaps the most purely intelligent GM in baseball with his Ivy League and Wall Street background. He does not need baseball, yet with the help of Hunsicker, made several critically acclaimed moves of the course of the season, dumping useless veteran players for a multitude of top prospects.

They clearly do have a plan in place, whether you see it is none of my concern. You continue to berate Tropicana Field, and while I am no fan of it, the aesthetic improvements over the last four years coupled with a $10 million renovation last offseason have made it perfectly serviceable.

The fact that the Rays drew a 20% increase in attendance last season despite losing 101 games is a testament to how much the area wants to support the team, however considering the franchise has never won more than 70 games, the area has had no reason to support the team. Tampa Bay can succeed as a baseball market, clearly. St. Pete has hosted more spring training games than any other city, spring training has existed in the area for over 90 years, and the area has a long track record of producing hall of famers. If the team would even show one ounce of success, you would see how much the area would get behind the team, I am confident of that.

And the "Wall Street Whiz Kids" would not have bought the franchise had they not seen a chance for it to be successful in the future. They aren't stupid, they know how to invest money.

As for your comment about B.J. Upton, I don't quite know what you base that on, considering he hasn't even played a full year in the major leagues. Nonetheless, you are entitled to your opinion, however uninformed it may be.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Oct 14, 2006 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If it is Lou, goodbye to Pie, Murton, Hill, Moore
Given that description of events, which reinforces the image of Lou's tenure in Tampa which I had already gleamed from other sources, Pinella will want to WIN NOW!  What does that mean?  Coercing Hendry into trading away the young developing players for "proven veterans" like Luis Gonzalez or Cliff Floyd.

Then they WILL NOT WIN, in fact they will not even make the NLCS, and the team will have no future for 2008-2010.  What's worse, winning the division would just get Hendry's contract extended.

Ack.

by Invalid User on Oct 13, 2006 1:25 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

what garbage
I know message board gm's have all the answers, but your's is silly.  I love how most of baseball is always stupid, but the message boards are filled with geniuses who always know more.  Funny stuff.

by cubswin on Oct 13, 2006 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have such
a migraine after reading that. I think I have to puke.
Go Hawkeyes...Beat Indiana!!!

by sue369 on Oct 13, 2006 2:51 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

My dad went to the same school as
Joe Girardi, Spalding High School in Peoria. Joe's a good Catholic boy, with Chicago roots. My dad likes him and so do I. Makes about as much sense as liking a team of uniforms. I like the Cubs because my dad does and he got me hooked as a kid. I like what I've seen of Joe as a Cub player and I hope he's the next manager.

by teacher tom on Oct 13, 2006 2:57 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope it's Joe
Every time I hear him speak I can't help but wonder why the Cubs would not hire him.  He sounds so intellegent and has such a passion about the Cubs.  I know it's a long shot but I hope he is our next manager.  

by mgfabc on Oct 13, 2006 8:25 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

me too
Go Hawkeyes...Beat Indiana!!!

by sue369 on Oct 13, 2006 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the writeup
I appreciate the time you took.  We are forewarned.
What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Oct 14, 2006 11:32 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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