The Piniella backalsh has begun!

by bison on Oct 19, 2006 2:28 PM CDT

You knew it was coming, but you think they'd let him manage a few games first:

Brief excerpt:

Besides pissing off the players, Piniellas' tantrums will quickly get under the skin of the umpires. Do you think the Cubs got bad calls before, just wait until Piniella ticks off the umpires.

Anyone here wanna take credit for this one?

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation, Bleed Cubbie Blue, or Al Yellon, editor-in-chief. FanPost opinions are, however, valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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i don't see

why hiring him is such a bad thing. his decision making could be no worse than baker's, he decision making doesn't worsen in the playoffs as baker's does, he has won a world series, and he'll likely spur the tribune to allot a higher payroll for next year.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 2:34 PM CDT 0 recs

Sure...

I'll take the credit. It's my site. I don't think Lou is the right guy for the job. Like I said on the site, he is just Dusty with a temper. I think his tantrums will hurt the team, not help them. This is not the age of Earl Weaver anymore. Umpires are much more thin skinned than they were years ago. Tick them off and they will toss you without even thinking about it. And as for the players, yelling and cussing does nothing to encourage good play. Bakers coddling didn't do anything either, but going totally the opposite way with Lou will not do it either. You need someone who knows how to handle the modern player, and I do not believe it is Piniella.

kasey

by kaseyi on Oct 19, 2006 2:47 PM CDT 0 recs

You may be right

but then again you may be wrong. The argument that Piniella is Dusty with a temper is not very persuasive to me. First of all, it assumes Dusty does not have a temper, which I know for a fact is incorrect. Just because he doesn't rip bases out and throw them into the outfield, or call out his players in post game press conferences, does not mean he doesn't have a temper. You would have to see him in the clubhouse to have any sort of feel for that. And the funny thing is, the players who have played for Lou sing his praises much the way Baker's ex-players do.

I don't mean the talking nice about the manager that just got fired stuff (see Girardi), I'm talking about players that played for him 10 or more years ago that say he is still the best manager they ever played for.

And I don't think holding players accountable is a bad thing...on a regular basis. You can take that and the temper thing too far...like with Billy Martin, who combined a temper, a drinking problem and the result was that he was totally out of control. He put WAY too much pressure on his players. Yes, he won a lot of ball games, but there is also a reason he got fired so many times. Punching your players is never a good thing.

Hey, everyone wants to win. What I was struck by in Lou's PC was how much he emphasized how he wants his players to have fun, play fundamental baseball and hustle. And how he likes to create an atmostphere where his players can relax and perform to the best of their abilities.

To me, that is most of the challenge of being a manager. If he can do that, if he has the right mix of talent and experience, and a good coaching staff, he will win ball games.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 3:09 PM CDT up 0 recs

I'll have to agree with this.

IF Piniella shows that he can actually DO what he talked about, the Cubs will be an improved team. They can't NOT be if that's the atmosphere from day one.

Next step: getting better players.

by Al on Oct 19, 2006 3:10 PM CDT up 0 recs

Completely agree

Unless we go out and sign some quality ptiching and hitting, Piniella can manage games naked for all I care cause I won't be watching.

by 10 14 23 26 on Oct 19, 2006 3:21 PM CDT up 0 recs

oh

"it assumes Dusty does not have a temper, which I know for a fact is incorrect"

"...does not mean he doesn't have a temper. You would have to see him in the clubhouse to have any sort of feel for that"

so you played for dusty? what position did you play for him? have we heard of you? i didn't realize we had an ex-player in our midst. exciting.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 3:43 PM CDT up 0 recs

Response

I know someone who knows Dusty and has been in the Giants clubhouse when Dusty was manager there.

I think that may carry a little more weight than the mindless and baseless speculation I have seen on here that Dusty is passionless.

I assure you, he is not.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 6:26 PM CDT up 0 recs

I agree

one time WGN caught him fling his toothpick down to the dugout floor in a fit of rage!

by JFCubFan on Oct 19, 2006 6:44 PM CDT up 0 recs

I agree!

Holding people accountable is what this team needs the most. Holding people accountable has been a HUGE problem under Baker. Some players couldn't succeed under hardass coaches, but Lou has always found a way to really challenge his players without turning them against him. Almost all the players who has played for him,say he's the best coach they've ever had. His abilty to challenge his players without turning them against him, is his best coaching trait. He's better at doing that than anything else.

by Macy on Oct 20, 2006 12:02 AM CDT up 0 recs

Whatever!

That's the biggest crock of shit I've ever read in my life.

by Maddog on Oct 19, 2006 4:22 PM CDT up 0 recs

Care

to be more specific, or are the concepts a little too advanced for you to respond to?

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 4:24 PM CDT up 0 recs

I would

trust maddog more in his wisdom.

Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 19, 2006 5:05 PM CDT up 0 recs

Well

Drive by posts like the one he just made don't reflect wisdom, more like a lack of ideas.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 5:08 PM CDT up 0 recs

while you

show up to just to argue and "hear your own voice", maddog generally comes to provide insight with more support than just about any poster here.

just for fun, look at the posts you make, and count back to see how far you have to go to find one where you aren't disagreeing with someone.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 5:37 PM CDT up 0 recs

whoops

i forgot i wasn't going to respond to you anymore. my bad.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 5:40 PM CDT up 0 recs

Well

let's see. I'll take you up on that. In fact, the last two posts I made before this one were ones were I was not disagreeing with anyone. One was about teams that fold in the stretch and one was agreeing with Al about a good post that a friend of his in Florida made about Lou Piniella's tenure with the D'Rays.

So, as usual, you are wrong. It only seems to you like my posts are mostly disagreeing with someone, because the posts I make in response to you are that way. And that is because you are so often wrong, as is the case here.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 5:52 PM CDT up 0 recs

as usual

wtf is with you, you have some kind of Napoleon complex or something?

You get the gist of what Tomas is saying, you don't have to be a jag and litreally go back to the last 2 posts, you've been argumentive upside and down on here.

Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 20, 2006 1:02 AM CDT up 0 recs

Uh,

did you even read the previous posts? He challenged me to go back and count how many posts I had made before I found one that I wasn't disagreeing with someone. I didn't have to count because the two previous posts were not in that vein.

This was his issue, not mine. Get over yourself.

by jazzman56 on Oct 20, 2006 1:16 AM CDT up 0 recs

Get over MYSELF?

You're dismissing other posters and telling them to go away, and I am the pompous one.

As I said in another thread, I'm going to give you the same treatment you give everyone else that disagrees with you, go away.

Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 20, 2006 1:21 AM CDT up 0 recs

Perhaps

you misconstrued my comments. When I said "go away" I didn't me from the blog in general I meant from my posts, specifically.

I wasn't dismissing anybody.

I was interested in starting a thread about the interesting issue over whether Randolph erred by not bunting the runners over in the 9th inning of the game tonight, and it was being stifled by someone who felt a need to demonstrate that he has read some articles on baseball prospectus.

It was a perfect opportunity to talk some baseball, but I can now see that isn't what this blog is really about. It's about a bunch of self proclaimed "experts" spouting a lot of articles they have read, but don't really comprehend, in a fruitless attempt to convince themselves and others that they really do have some insight. When you objectively measure the signal to noise ratio on here, it is really pretty poor.

by jazzman56 on Oct 20, 2006 1:35 AM CDT up 0 recs

Reply

and it was being stifled by someone who felt a need to demonstrate that he has read some articles on baseball prospectus.

It's not just Baseball Prospectus, and you should probably read some of those articles too. But in your case, I guess the phrase ignorance is bliss applies.

by VS on Oct 20, 2006 1:47 AM CDT up 0 recs

VS's baseball knowledge

is leaps and bounds compared to what you think you know, I promise you that.

Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 20, 2006 11:45 AM CDT up 0 recs

and

wtf is with you that you feel the need to citicize someone by interjecting yourself into a thread that you haven't even read and to which you have nothing of value to contribute?

by jazzman56 on Oct 20, 2006 1:21 AM CDT up 0 recs

Sorry

I didn't RSVP on time, its' a bad habit of mine.

Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 20, 2006 1:22 AM CDT up 0 recs

Yeah.

I really want to spend the time breaking down the absurdity of that guy's post and his website. That's a productive way to spend my time. My thoughts and opinions on Piniella are well known. I don't need to reiterate them every single time I want to disagree with a poster. This guy's comment and site are so absurd that they don't warrant anything more than what I initially stated. Yes, that guy can do with his money and time what he pleases, but don't try and tell me that because it failed once it's going to fail again. Don't try and tell me that so and so is "right" for the job while providing NOTHING but insignificant opinions to go with it. Don't try and tell me that because Piniella is a hard-ass that it's going to fail because of all things...because dusty Baker wasn't a hard-ass. What kind of odd logic is that? I don't need to respond with thoughtfulnees to a comment that was written without any thought, logic, or intelligence whatsoever. It's a waste of my time and a waste of your's to sit here and have to read it.

by Maddog on Oct 19, 2006 6:03 PM CDT up 0 recs

If that's

the case, then why respond at all? If you haven't got the inclination to make a useful post that actually contributes some ideas to the conversation, why is it necessary to make some rude and inflammatory post?

First of all, I mistook the thread, I thought you were responding to me. Secondly, I agree with you, but at least I went to the trouble to add some thoughts I had about it.

To me, even if I agree with you, to make that kind of a flip statement without contributing anything is just lame.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 6:09 PM CDT up 0 recs

Why?

Because the comment he wrote was horrible.

This has been beaten to death here and elsewhere over the past week or so. It's time for people to move on. Maybe Piniella works out and maybe he doesn't. Not one of us knows.

by Maddog on Oct 19, 2006 6:27 PM CDT up 0 recs

OK

Then my original comment that you do not have any new ideas to add was correct. All I am saying that it is quite alright for you to pass on making a post when the only thing you have to contribute is profanity.

I do understand the frustration, BTW.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 6:33 PM CDT up 0 recs

Yes, it's OK to do that.

I just wasn't going to in that instance. I felt my initial response was warranted and that I needn't expand on why--I thought it was self-explanatory to be honest.

And I probably should have ignored it. A better person would have.

by Maddog on Oct 19, 2006 7:18 PM CDT up 0 recs

Maddog

maybe you could just refer people to the chicago national league ball club blog. I can see why you hate spending time repeating everything.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 19, 2006 6:40 PM CDT up 0 recs

There's a link

on the sidebar on this site to it.

Or here's the link.

http://www.thechicagonationalleagueballclub.com/

by Maddog on Oct 19, 2006 7:19 PM CDT up 0 recs

And yet...

you responded again.

BCB'ers are funny.

You guys argue and whine about EVERYTHING!
(even when no name, thoughtless college kids argue with themselves you guys get mad)

I FRIGGIN' LOVE IT!!!

I know Al once said something about people coming here for insight, but I have to admit, I come here as much for the entertainment as well.

Thanks bleedcubbieblue.com

Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 19, 2006 6:18 PM CDT up 0 recs

uh huh

BCB'ers are funny.

You guys argue and whine about EVERYTHING!

And you're better than us how?

(even when no name, thoughtless college kids argue with themselves you guys get mad)

You're an ass. Take your better than thou attitude and shove it.

Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 20, 2006 1:04 AM CDT up 0 recs

I think

Lou is just a mean Dusty. But that doesn't mean I support firing him or launching a website to fire him. I'm actually sitting around hoping that I'm wrong, and I support Piniella and the Cubs attempt to win the World Series.

There is no point in opposing Piniella now. It's time for us all to give him our support. (There will be plenty of time to turn on him later, ha ha ha.)

I promise not to call for Lou's head if he doesn't win the World Series next season.

Piniella is the sympton, not the disease

by Josh77 on Oct 19, 2006 8:59 PM CDT up 0 recs

i think

we could have done worse. brenly would've been worse. he also has a world series ring, and bases his decisions on hunches like baker and pinella, but i bet ramirez will run out balls for pinella more than for brenly.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:12 PM CDT up 0 recs

This is horsecrap

This is total and utter crap. If you are successful in life achieving even 1/100th of what Lou Piniella (or Dusty for that matter) has achieved both on and off the baseball diamond, then maybe you can take potshots at the Cub manager. Let me guess, you work the third shift in a horse rendering plant, huh?

As a wise man once told me, "those who CAN'T because of shortcomings, weakness and insecurity usually are the first in line to take pot shots at those who CAN."

by BlueMike on Oct 19, 2006 9:18 PM CDT up 0 recs

I work the second shift...

...I tell ya, it's not half bad.

Still amazes me when I see the glue.

PINIELLA!

by theprognosticator on Oct 20, 2006 12:19 AM CDT up 0 recs

Unfair and unwarrented

The man has never managed one game for your team and you start this crap. Just because the Cubs didn't hire who you thought would have made a batter manager just rings of "sour grapes".

Give him a chance and see what happens. Let him manage a team that, hopefully, is in the process of being built now by Jimmmy "Doughnuts" Hendry.

A better site would have been the Hendryhastogo.com

I think Piniella will prove you wrong!

"We're going to win here, That's really the end of the story." Lou Piniella

by Scott G F on Oct 19, 2006 3:08 PM CDT 0 recs

Piniella has a history...

so I don't have to see him manage the Cubs. I have seen him manage the Yankees, Reds, Mariners and Devil Rays. You know what he is. I hope Piniella proves me wrong, but I doubt it. I originally bought the domain and was jsut going to hold onto it, but after listening to the Press Conference and I heard he was retaining Rothschild, I decided to go ahead and vent my displeasure with his hiring.

BTW, Hendryhastogo.com is available. You can start up your own website to promote your views.

by kaseyi on Oct 19, 2006 3:16 PM CDT up 0 recs

Yes

Piniella has a history. And with the exception of Tampa Bay, which even the staunchest Piniella critics have to concede had problems that go well beyond who the manager is, Piniella has won pretty consistently everywhere.

You are entitled to disagree with his choice as Cubs manager, but you can't fault his resume.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 3:30 PM CDT up 0 recs

and Dusty

was a winner with the Giants before he came here (taking the Giants to the WS). You couldn't fault his resume either. After the close call in 2003, he lost control of everything here and the team went to Hell in a handbasket. Was Dusty the right guy them? In retrospect, no.

BTW, I wanted Macha back then, but that didn't happen. We got Dusty, the guy with the impressive resume. The guy who got the Giants in the playoffs year after year. The guy who came close to winning the World Series against the Angels. And where did that resume get us?

by kaseyi on Oct 19, 2006 3:43 PM CDT up 0 recs

Yes

but there is plenty of risk in taking that approach too. There are many more first time managers that fail then there are that succeed.

But, the Giants took a flyer on Dusty when the sum total of his managerial experience was in the Arizona Fall League. And that worked out pretty well.

I think the real answer to this lies in Hendry's status. If he was more secure in his position, he might be willing to go for a riskier choice...Washington, Acta or even Girardi. But, since he knows he used up his mulligan on Baker, he goes for the guy with the resume, and I don't blame him.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 3:50 PM CDT up 0 recs

CSN

did an interview with Lou the other night and his temper was brought up. He said he is not proud of those things (kicking his hat, the dirt and throwing the base). He said he has grown and that stuff is behind him. I guess we have to take him at his word until he proves otherwise.

Go Hawkeyes...Beat Michigan!!!

by sue369 on Oct 19, 2006 3:42 PM CDT 0 recs

If...

... that's really true, then Piniella may turn out to be exactly the RIGHT choice. I wonder, though, if he said just the same thing when he was hired at Tampa.

by Al on Oct 19, 2006 4:20 PM CDT up 0 recs

See this is

what I don't get. I think it is entirely likely that Lou has mellowed with age, and more than that, I think the experience of spending a year in the broadcast booth has given him a much different perspective.

But, I don't get why people seem to think he is not a good choice (or is a good choice) based on whether he argues with managers and goes bezerk doing it or not.

Earl Weaver did that and was a great manager. Lary Bowa did too, and he was a lousy manager.

I don't think it means anything of substance one way or another. It may help fire up your team in one specific game situation, but beyond that it means buptkis.

I would like to hear reasons why people think Piniella is a bad choice with no mention of temper, base-throwing or arguing with umpires.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 4:31 PM CDT up 0 recs

I think many of those....

... were stated quite well in this diary.

by Al on Oct 19, 2006 4:39 PM CDT up 0 recs

Yes

I read that at the time it was posted and I was impressed and thought Patrick made some good points.

I also think it is pretty unfair to evaluate Piniella based on his stint with Tampa Bay.

I would be even more impressed with a similar dispassionate analysis of Piniella's stints in Cincinnati or Seattle, which I feel have more similarity to the situation he is coming into in Chicago.

By the way, does anybody remember who Tampa Bay's first manager was when they came into the league? Larry Rothschild, if memory serves.

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 5:02 PM CDT up 0 recs

Perhaps...

... I can get the SB Nation Mariners blogger to add his thoughts about Piniella.

(I'd ask JD, the Reds guy, but I think he was in junior high when Piniella managed there.)

by Al on Oct 19, 2006 7:17 PM CDT up 0 recs

I've heard Scotty Bowman described

as a guy who is only liked by his players when they are winning Stanley Cups and after they stop playing for him. I don't care if players like him or not, as long as they respect him and play hard for him. If he's a good manager the wins will come and players will want to play for him.

But monstly, it is much too early to start bashing him. This is precisely the negative undercurrent that former players and coaches have cited when complaining about some of the fans. It is completely unwarrented. He hasn't even been given a chance.

by NO100 on Oct 19, 2006 3:54 PM CDT 0 recs

I thought he got along with most players ?

Honestly Kasey I was not happy about the hiring either
but it does seem from what I have read that he generally
got along well with players which I for one consider VERY
important. I thought it was funny that the umpire
involved in the base throwing incident was our old
friend C.B Buckner. I took that as a good sign

Personally I think Girardi, Brenly, Boche and a few others
would have been better but he gets a season's grace
now

FYI I am gonna get KILLED fo this but I might as well
confess now that I don't mind Rothschild being kept
I can't explain it and I certainly would have preffered
poaching Mike Maddux but none the less I don't
think of this as a horrible thing

I love the ballpark. I love the city. I love the fans. Aside from how we've played this year, there's nothing not to like about Chicago." Greg Maddux 7/29/06

by jessica on Oct 19, 2006 4:00 PM CDT 0 recs

"I thought it was funny that the umpire
involved in the base throwing incident was our old friend C.B Buckner. I took that as a good sign."

I also thought it interesting that what some sour pusses on here took as a smirk on Buckner's face was CLEARLY C.B. fighting to keep from laughing at Lou's antics. That put the whole incident in a different light for me.

Agree about Rothschild and did you stop to consider that maybe Maddux is happy in Milwaukee and feels some loyalty towards the manager there, which is the case from all reports I have heard?

by jazzman56 on Oct 19, 2006 4:06 PM CDT up 0 recs

Loyalty runs in the Maddux family

( which FYI is why Greg will be a Dodger till he retires)
but I was just saying I wanted him, Hey i REALLY want
Jarmello ( sic) but that ain't gonna happen either

I love the ballpark. I love the city. I love the fans. Aside from how we've played this year, there's nothing not to like about Chicago." Greg Maddux 7/29/06

by jessica on Oct 19, 2006 4:15 PM CDT up 0 recs

childish and unjustified

n/t

Soarin higher than a 1st base down the right field line....

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 19, 2006 5:02 PM CDT 0 recs

Al...DELETE this thread

It is an insult to Lou Piniella and decent Cub fans around the globe.

by BlueMike on Oct 19, 2006 9:19 PM CDT 0 recs

you

are asking for removal of a thread because its insulting? that's rich, especially since in this very thread you accused someone of working third shift in a horse rendering plant.

thing is, i bet the guy who works in the horse-rendering plant is more enjoyable to be around than you. i bet the horse plant guy wouldn't be universally disliked, be repeatedly asked to elave, and beg or sneak back into a message board.

by tomas21 on Oct 19, 2006 9:27 PM CDT up 0 recs