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What Makes A Good Coach?

Sandberg? Sutcliffe? Grace? Maddux?

As the Cubs search for a new manager (again), and fans begin to project who would make good coaches in the new regime, something continues to baffle me:  Why do fans continue to throw out the names of former Cubs' favorites as prospective coaches?

I mean, come on, who doesn't love Ryno? The Red Barron? Gracie?  Sarge?  Right?  They are Cub icons, and all-of-them, fan favorites.  However, it seems borderline ridiculous, or at least yet-to-be-justified to be throwing these guys names out there as coaches for the new regime.  What is it that will make Ryne Sandberg a great coach?  What is it that will make Greg Maddux a great coach?

I can't say what it is that makes a good coach, but I think that we all agree that from the manager on down, what the Cubs need are excellent, hungry, devoted teachers of the game.  We've all complained, and all agree, no-matter-our-differences, that the Cubs' coaches as of late have plain-sucked.  It showed on the field everday.  The best teachers of the game -- or the best teachers in general, in life -- are not necessarily the Hall of Famers or best players.  That is one thing I have always observed about baseball--or any sport for that matter--it's usually the mediocre former players or no-namers that make the best managers and coaches.  Excelling as a coach utilizes a different set of skills than succeeding as a player.

So, do people really want these former stars to be coaching our players?  I just want to know what other people seem to suggest:  What is it that will make Ryne Sanberg a great coach?  Maddux? Grace?  Me, personally, I always feel more comfortable with the manager making the choice.  I mean, it's not a popularity contest.  

What does it take to be a great coach?  Who are the best candidates?  Why would former star players make good coaches?

Poll
Best former Cub for Coach?
Ryne Sanberg
5 votes
Mark Grace
1 votes
Andre Dawson
3 votes
Jody Davis
3 votes
Greg Maddux
6 votes

18 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

0 recs  |  Comment 24 comments

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I like to call it the "Ozzie effect"
And it is, at least in part, just that:  if the answer for the Sox was Ozzie, the answer for the Cubs is (insert fan favorite former player of your choice here).  

That being said, I do believe Greg Maddux would be an excellent pitching coach.  He's not called "the professor" for nothing.  Because his success has been based more on knowledge and preparation than being able to throw a 100 mph fastball, he has a lot more to impart to young pitchers than would, say, a Roger Clemens.  His personality just seems well-suited to coaching, as well.  

You are right on the money about former role-players being better coaches than super-stars.  Nowhere is this more in evidence than the NBA.  If you follow pro basketball at all, these three names should be sufficient to show that stardom as a player does not make a successful coach, while being a solid roleplayer does:  Avery Johnson, Isaiah Thomas, and the Bulls' own Scott Skiles.  

by SuperContext on Oct 5, 2006 11:54 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Jinx
I was saying the same thing...

The NFL:
Herm Edwards
Bill Cowher
Lovie Smith

Kirk Ferentz

MOST NFL coaches were former average players either in the NFL or college.

Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 5, 2006 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really don't think
that Herm Edwards can be considered a good coach.  Give him 2 years and KC's offense will be terrible, just like that of the Jets.

by tal1286 on Oct 5, 2006 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Joe Girardi...
Average to slightly above average player.

So far, great coach.

I agree. What makes so-called average players good to great coaches is that more than likely they didn't have all the physical skills of the game. They had to rely on the mental aspect of it, the repetiveness of doing the same exact fundamental things every day.

Incredibly "gifted" athletes usually do one of two things (so it seems):
a) fade out of baseball with a ton of "potential" because they never put in the work to become perfect in their mechanics and everything else and be consistent day-in, day-out --or--
b) they work hard and become great--what happens here, though, like with Michael Jordan, is that they don't understand how, if they are teaching someone the right way to do something and see this person working hard at it all the time, why this player isn't great. The usually get frustrated and thus don't seem to maximize the abilities of those they are teaching.

"Average" players, on the other hand, have a number of qualities: consistent work ethic, ability to be patient with superstars (as they may have had to do while playing), and an understanding of where the lesser-gifted athletes they are teaching are coming from, and recognizing their roles and how it would fit on a team.

These are generalities and are only my opinion. But they seem to work to me. Certainly, not every average player is a great coach (duh) and some great players could be great coaches.

I don't know how, though, "greats" like Maddux and Grace, who seem to have become great with technical skill and a great work ethic (from my limited view of baseball the past 10+ years, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least those two could do it. But who knows?

Seriously, I don't need to win in '07 or '08. I can take two more 90-loss seasons if we have some talent to build with. Let's start over and do this right.

by tyger1147 on Oct 5, 2006 12:00 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Consider...
... the generally-acknowledged three best managers in the game today:

Joe Torre
Bobby Cox
Tony LaRussa

Torre was a very good player, a borderline Hall of Famer even as a player. He had over 2300 hits, won a batting title and an MVP award and was a pretty good defensive catcher.

But until he managed the Yankees, he was considered mediocre as a manager. In 14 years he finished first only once. So his success may be in part, because he now has a good team behind him.

Cox and LaRussa were both fringe players, but learned the game well, apparently, from whoever they played for, whether it was in the minors or the majors.

I don't necessarily think there is any pattern here. Great players often don't make good managers for the reason that you state -- that they don't have the patience for players who aren't as good as they were. Ted Williams was a good example of that. Frank Robinson, a Hall of Fame player, managed for a long time, but never had any success.

In some ways, it's a crapshoot, and dependent on the players the GM gives the manager.

That said, I don't necessarily want Ryne Sandberg or Mark Grace as Cub coaches UNLESS their skills in coaching would make them qualified to impart their knowledge to current players. Example: Gary Matthews was a very good player, and had one of the better years in recent Cub history in 1984. He was quite popular as a Cub player. But he was a lousy coach.

by Al on Oct 5, 2006 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is
and the Chicago Cubs as an orginization has a Luck% of 0.
"I respect the mind's power over the body, it's why I do what I do" - Dr. Jonathan Crane

by Faith plus 1 on Oct 5, 2006 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

formula
BillyGoat*Prior/Wood+Lee*Dusty/Bartman = 98
GET SORIANO!

by CubFaninCA on Oct 5, 2006 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LaRussa..
... is third on the all-time managerial wins list. He has managed for over 25 years, has been in the postseason 12 times, won four pennants and a World Series.

That's a little more than "luck". Go read "3 Nights in August".

by Al on Oct 5, 2006 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

being in the same
division as the cubs, pirates, brewers, and reds has a way of making you "lucky"  :)

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 5, 2006 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also....
LaRussa and Cox, for all the success they have had, have gotten the worst label pinned on them that any coach in any sport can get: a good coach who cannot win the big one.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Oct 5, 2006 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Touche, but...
... that wasn't always the case for him, and there have been years in his StL tenure where the Cardinals weren't the best team in the division.

by Al on Oct 5, 2006 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Devil's Advocate
If Joe Girardi was such a "great coach," then why did he get tossed out of town after only one year in Florida?!?  And don't give me the very tired excuse that the owner is a moron.  The success of the Marlins had a lot more to do with the continuing brilliant manuevering of GM Larry Benifast to acquire young talent and build a great minor league system then it did Joe Girardi the manager.  

Look, I like Girardi.  Heck, I even hope he is the candidate among the names bandied about that gets the Cub job.  But I refuse to ignore the "Florida incident" and look at him through rose-colored glasses.  Cub fans fell into this same damned trap with Dusty Baker four years ago.  Girardi has some growing up to do.  He also needs to respect leadership and learn how to play nice.  

by BlueBooHoo on Oct 5, 2006 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here we go.....
Mike is already building up the negativity around the possible Girardi signing.  Let's see the Cubs could:
  • Fire Hendry
  • Sign Zito and Schmidt
  • Sign Soriano
  • Trade for Willis or Cabrera
  • Find takers for Dempster and Rusch's deal.
  • Trade Cedeno for a real prospect.  
  • Sell the team
And Mike would still complain.  

by rlpete on Oct 5, 2006 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Some Science lots of Art....
The biggest function is knowing how to manage & motivate people.  Also, they need to have some understanding of stats or be able to find people who have a good understanding of such analysis..  

I don't know enough about any of the 5 to give an answer.  

GET SORIANO!

by CubFaninCA on Oct 5, 2006 12:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Addendum
A catcher's usually the best bet, as they have experience managing a pitching staff and pitch calls..  Hence, it's probably a good idea for Barrett to never go into coaching...
GET SORIANO!

by CubFaninCA on Oct 5, 2006 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's coaches and then there's coaches
I'd like to see Ryno given a position as first base coach and infielders coach.  Sandberg played shortstop all through the minors, played third for a year, and then excelled at second.  He has always said he didn't have the most natural talent, but worked hard before every season and before every game to practice his fielding.  I think any player would respect that.  If you're going to put a fan favorite somewhere, it's going to be first base or bullpen coach.  

I think where you get into the most trouble with star players coming back as coaches is the hitting coach and the pitching coach.  No Fergies and Billies, please.  

Among former Cubs who weren't stars, one possibility is Gary Varsho for bench coach.  He was let go by the Phillies, and has talked about wanting to come back to Chicago.  

There's also a diversity side of the coaching staff.  If you hire a white, straightlaced, former catcher as manager, chances are he'll hire a couple of minority, fun-loving, former outfielders to the staff.  It helps for each player to have someone on the coaching staff to relate to, since a ball team is much like a family.  That's not to say there have to be clear ethnic, religious, or other divisions in teams, but that the coaching staff usually reflects the makeup of the team, for good reasons.  And, yes, at least one of them usually speaks Spanish.  

by zambranofan on Oct 5, 2006 12:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Girardi and Varsho...
... know each other well. They were Cub teammates in 1989 and 1990 and spent some time together at Iowa, too.

That'd be a good choice for Girardi if he's hired.

by Al on Oct 5, 2006 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

For another reference on Varsho....
I refer you to Ryne Sandberg's autobiography, "Second to Home":

"Varsho is one of those guys who would make a great major league manager someday because he is very dedicated to the game and he studies it.  No matter what team he is on, he sits near the manager and tries to learn as much as he can.  He's one of those guys who had to struggle to get to the big leagues and stay there, and usually those players make the best managers."    --Ryne Sandberg

A pretty good endorsement from a pretty good source.  Varsho is probably not ready to manage, but I like the idea of him as a coach.  

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Oct 5, 2006 1:23 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good manager
manages people exceptionally.

Coaches develop talent, players execute.  But managers can look at the team they have available, work with coaches and players, and make the best team possible WITH WHAT THEY HAVE (cough, Dusty!).  Without working together and having the managerial skills to motivate players to work together and to play on their weaknesses and strengths, a manager is Dusty
Baker.

Thus concludes my argument on why good baseball players do not necessarily make good managers.

she

by Sarah Hope on Oct 5, 2006 1:56 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

i think
 a good coach is one resourceful enough to sell their pre-game time for free cable and discount on cars. that's why i'm so bummed that all our coaches got tossed, because they were the most resourceful in the game at whoring themselves off for free stuff.

but seriously, i think it might matter less how good the player was, but rather how hard they had to work to get there. somebody like ted williams might not have been a good coach because he was the most natural basebeall player in the history of the game, and probably didn't have to spend much time figuring out why he was good or what it would take to get better.

perhaps the fringe players often make good coaches because they are the people in baseball who have to work the hardest to keep their job, and have to use every ounce of talent they have or they'd be out of a job. therefore, they might have a better shot at telling someone else what it takes to win or improve.

by tomas21 on Oct 5, 2006 7:40 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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