Torre Gone; Sweet Lou back in

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Oct 8, 2006 1:30 AM CDT Comment 102 comments

Reports early this morning out of NY (As per ESPN,Fox and NYPost) are that Torre is out. He can resign or be fired. Lou Pinella is apparently The Boss' choice to replace Torre, part of the thinking being that May-Rod played well for him in Seattle.

This would probably mark the end of Joe's career as he'll get $7.0 a year for the next couple of years. It looks like it also means the Yankees 3rd baseman will stay in NY.

My thoughts are that Cashman is the one to let go as he put together the Social Security starting pitching.

I'm guessing that Sheffield will be gone.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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If that is true...

then Girardi would almost certainly be our man...

Give Me Girardi or give me DEATH!!!!

by KChiCubs on Oct 8, 2006 1:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Probably so, since ....

...Girardi was very interested in taking over the Yanks if Torre decided to leave and according to reports he won't even be considered.

I wrote the longest post and best post I ever have. And it just dissapeared, I am so dissapointed right now. Sorry.

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Oct 8, 2006 1:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Piniella is GONE

Hallelujah!

I can't think of a worse move we could have made this off-season than hiring Piniella. Now Steinbrenner has made that impossible.

Joe Girardi is likely to be the next Cub manager. Brenly, if he takes a managing job, will likely take the Giants. Girardi's not my first choice (I'd rather have Ron Washington or even, gasp, Bobby Valentine) but he's a solid choice.

I suppose it's still possible that Hendry contacts Buck Showalter. He wouldn't be a terrible choice as he's a good in-game manager, but he'd wear out his welcome here eventually just like he's worn it out everywhere else.

by Josh77 on Oct 8, 2006 1:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Knowing the Cubs...

they are unlikely to make the right moves, but...

If there was a hope for the 2007 season, the following headlines would appear in the Trib, the Sun Times, the Herald, and the southtown:

"Joe Torre Out, Lou Pinella In"
"Cubs hire fan favorite Joe Girardi"
"Cubs re-sign Aramis Ramirez for 4 years, $60 Million"
"Soriano signs 5 year, $65 million deal with Cubs"
"Zito throws a curve ball, signs with Cubs"
"Cubs gain rights to Matzusaka, sing him to 6 year deal"
"Cubs aquire Vernon Wells, part with Pie, Jones, and Marshall"
"Zambrano signs a lifetime deal with Cubs" (couldn't resist that one...)

However, this is not a perfect world, so these will be more likely:

"Brenly Leaves booth for the Cubs' Helm"
"Ramirez signs a 5 year, $70 million deal with Boston"
"Rothschild to return as Cubs' Pitching Coach"
"Kenny Lofton signed to a one year deal"
"Ancient Mariner Jamey Moyer signs with Cubs"
"Cubs sign Out-Fielder Tori Hunter to a 4 year deal"
"Cubs aquire Beltre from Seattle for Murton, Pie, Theriot, Hill"
"Aging Cliff Folyd becomes 2007 Cubs' Left Fielder"

Give Me Girardi or give me DEATH!!!!

by KChiCubs on Oct 8, 2006 1:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Well...

I imagine this means Torre is available. Interesting.

"Babe Ruth is dead, just throw strikes!"

by Goat Whisperer on Oct 8, 2006 2:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Cannot imagine

Torre would want anything to do with the situation ont he north side of Chicago. What could that possibly do for him at then end of a successful career? Tarnish his legacy most likely? He's been looking down his nose at the rest of baseball for years, why would he humble himself and come here?

by pageian on Oct 8, 2006 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

NY Daily News link...

.... here.

It appears to not yet be official:

Suddenly, the future of the Bombers is gloomy, and a virtual demolition of the franchise may not be far off. Torre's 11-year run as Yankee manager could end within days. Alex Rodriguez figures to be shopped on the trade market. An overhaul of the pitching staff is needed, and if the last few days are any indication, so is an infusion of energy.

by Al on Oct 8, 2006 4:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

It will be interesting

to see what kind of offers that NY gets for ARod. If the Yanks are dumping salary, it's hard to imagine many GMs offering top line players in addition to the money. Personally, I'd love to see him here at SS. But it's hard to justify trading Hill with our shortage of qualified starters.

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Oct 8, 2006 6:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ARod after the game (AP)

"My commitment is 100 percent. Unconditional." "I want to be a Yankee. I don't want to go anywhere, and I can't be more clear. I hope they don't want to trade me, because I don't want to go anywhere."

"I mean, if they're dying to get rid of me," he said when asked whether he would consider it. "I hope not. I mean, I'm 100 percent committed to being a Yankee and that's the only place I want to play. & I believe I can be part of the solution here. I've had success in New York -- in the regular season. I have to find it in the postseason."

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on Oct 8, 2006 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

A-Rod for $16M a year for 4 years

to me sounds very marketable. I would think that he could get some real good players. A-Rod still has a no-trade clause and he has shown little desire to waive it.

by NO100 on Oct 8, 2006 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i actually think

the southside could be a very real possibility. garcia and crede for a-rod would probably be pretty fair to both sides. A-rod could move back to SS, Fields in at third, and A-Rod goes to a contender.

Not sure if the fact that the Sox have been playing well would be enough to off-set going to a crappy stadium with crappy fans in a crappy part of town with the golden glow of the north side off in the distance. but i'm biased.

by tomas21 on Oct 8, 2006 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will disagree with this everywhere you post it..

Crede is not that great of a player, has serious back issues, and Garcia or Buerhle aren't tremendous pitchers by any stretch anymore.

If Cashman makes that deal for A-Rod, Cashman might as well resign immediately thereafter as he will be fired the minute Big Stein sees Crede hitting .240 in April and Garcia posting an ERA well over 4.50.

Surely the Yankees can do better than Crede-Garcia.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If souls and satan were real

I'd sell mine to him for A-Rod to come here.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus on Oct 8, 2006 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hope Kurt doesnt see this comment

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who's Kurt?

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus on Oct 8, 2006 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

search the comments

for the user "Kurt"

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see

what you mean. Did he get banned? If I got yelled at being honest about religion and exposing it for what it really is, you think Kurt would be lashed by Old Man Yellon too.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus on Oct 8, 2006 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This was dealt with.

It's old news. Let it go.

by Al on Oct 8, 2006 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

I just found out about it. Sorry to be like this guy.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus on Oct 8, 2006 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow

that was funny. I missed the whole 'kurt' thing. a bible-thumping lawyer-basher on bcb. Really glad you keep this stuff outta here Al.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Oct 8, 2006 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nothing has been confirmed yet right?

I'll believe it when I see it. Wouldn't be surprised but until it happens I'm not holding my breath.

Please please please hire Sweet Lou Mr. Steinbrenner. Joe Girardi is an impertinent jerk who doesn't like doing what his boss tells him to do. You wouldn't like him.

And Mr. Steinbrenner, that ARod guy sure sucks. Trade him to some unsuspecting team like the Cubs. They're stupid enough to take him off your hands.

by pageian on Oct 8, 2006 7:58 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Wait wait wait

(start sarcasm font)

How is that even possible?
Mike63 told us that Girardi was going the #1 choice and that The Boss loved him.

I think you and ESPN have bad information. Obviously Mike knows more about all of this than any of you!!

(end sarcasm font)

by Scott on Oct 8, 2006 8:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I think Jim Fregosi

is all but signed as next manager of the Yankees.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How about

a novel idea for the Yankees: a college of coaches, including Dusty Baker, Lou Pinella, Larry Rothchild, Don Baylor, Don Zimmer and Yogi Berra. The Boss could have regular tantrums and fire a major personality several times during the season.

Hoping to goodness is not theologically sound. --Linus

by moldyfolky on Oct 8, 2006 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Baker would have a heart attack

with the amount of times bobby abreu clogs the bases.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wanna see

I wanna see Dusty Baker as the next manager of the New York Yankees.

by NL doormat on Oct 8, 2006 11:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Choices dwindling

If Pinella does go to NY, the Nats will probably jump on Giardi and we're stuck with Brenly, who I don't feel is our best choice. If the Giants sign him, our options are getting slimmer. Hendry needs to make some quick decisions.

by mrcubsfan on Oct 8, 2006 11:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

there is not a snowball's

chance Girardi would accept the nationals job without KNOWING he wasnt getting the Cub job. you don't to worry about us losing Girardi to the Nationals, if the cubs want him (here's hoping) he'll be our next manager.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good news/ Bad News

If the Yankees take Pinella that is THE BEST NEWS
I will have had since the end of the season. I would
like Girardi but I am OK with Brenly , Acosta or
ANYBODY BUT PINELLA ( who may be just what the Yankees
need but not the Cubs)

Bad news , what ever tiny,tiny chance the Cubs had
of getting Matzusaka is out the window. I don't see
any way the Yankees don't buy the shiniest pitching
toy in the window when every post season series has
proved the addage pitching is 90% of the game

I love the ballpark. I love the city. I love the fans. Aside from how we've played this year, there's nothing not to like about Chicago." Greg Maddux 7/29/06

by jessica on Oct 8, 2006 12:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Only in Chicago

can a fan vote for a manager who's dead.

Or I guess you could be like Mike63, vote early, vote often!

(I think you mean Manny Acta, not Oscar Acosta.)

by zambranofan on Oct 8, 2006 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes Acta

Actually now that I live in New York I kind of miss
the "vote early and often", not to mention the dead voting.

FYI when the Letterman show was in Chicago years
ago they did a demonstration of special "Chicago"
products. One was a casket with the voting levers
built in to make it easier for the dead to vote. Another
was an electric mixer with the two blades replaced
by Cub dolls so that when you turned it on they just
spun around doing nothing.

No Marshall Fields, soon no Carsons, Berghoff is closed
if it were not for the Cubs I would probably not even
visit the old home town

I love the ballpark. I love the city. I love the fans. Aside from how we've played this year, there's nothing not to like about Chicago." Greg Maddux 7/29/06

by jessica on Oct 8, 2006 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

We still have

DA BEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus on Oct 8, 2006 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You may be right

About Matsuzaka--seems hard to believe the Yankees would let him go now. Also A-Rod--if Piniella's the man to take over in the Bronx, you would have to assume A-Rod is staying because Piniella and Rodriquez had a great relationship in Seattle.

Still, there's always a chance on Matsuzaka. Maybe the Yankees will underestimate other teams' interests.

by Josh77 on Oct 8, 2006 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Does the posting fee...

... count against the luxury tax? Because the Yankees just spent $200 million in salary, and $100 million in luxury tax to get bounced out of the playoffs again.

Maybe they're not so willing to take that risk -- unless they can get someone to take A-Rod's deal. They may have a ton of money, but I wonder if they've reached their limit, or at least the limit of how much they'll spend to acquire an All-Star team that doesn't win the WS.

Remember, the Yankee teams that DID win the WS were much more TEAMS than collections of All-Stars. Steinbrenner should have learned that lesson.

by Al on Oct 8, 2006 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

On pitching they will spend what it takes

Honestly I don't even see the Trib making
a serious offer but they can bid $20 million without
the slightest fear of winning. I don't want to bet
you on this Al but I think Matsuzaka in pin stripes
is a done deal. Other than guys who just did not
want to PLAY for the Yankees ( and there are some)
when did these guys not win a bidding war or
get what they wanted ? Now if they go after
Zito he MIGHT turn them down but Matsuzaka has
no choice.

I love the ballpark. I love the city. I love the fans. Aside from how we've played this year, there's nothing not to like about Chicago." Greg Maddux 7/29/06

by jessica on Oct 8, 2006 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No

Posting fees are NOT counted against luxury tax totals.

by Josh77 on Oct 8, 2006 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Predictions:

The Boss' son-in-law, who is being groomed to takeover the Yanks, will calm the old man down.
Torre will leave but not be run off, which opens up the possibility of a Girardi hire (although Sweet Lou is the runaway front runner at this point).

There is/will be severe opposition to Lou from current coaches and Jeter (Jeter by the way is a crappy captain who placed his personal pissing match with Arod over the good of the team)for a variety of reasons--Jeter because Lou is firmly in the Arod camp.

Arod will be hard to trade unless they find a fool of a GM (oh no, that places the cubs at the top of the list). A good GM will not overpay and force the Yanks to eat some of the contract. Bottom line, Arod and Bosox Manny are just too hard to trade and get anywhere near equivalent value.

Sheffield is gone. Randy Johnson is gone unless his contract situation is such that he cannot be released or traded without big $$$ ramifications. Bernie is gone if Joe is.

Of course by the time I post this George could have gone crazy and done anything, mooting everything or anything I've predicted.

I wrote the longest post and best post I ever have. And it just dissapeared, I am so dissapointed right now. Sorry.

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Oct 8, 2006 1:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The A-Rod contract....

... would be about $17 million per year, because the Rangers are on the hook for the rest of it.

That doesn't seem too outrageous in today's market. There are four years left on the deal.

by Al on Oct 8, 2006 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But he has a full no trade contract

and does NOT want to to go. Not sure how much
worse it could get for him in New York so what
are you going to do to encourage him to wave it?

I love the ballpark. I love the city. I love the fans. Aside from how we've played this year, there's nothing not to like about Chicago." Greg Maddux 7/29/06

by jessica on Oct 8, 2006 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will say this again...

If George Steinbrenner wants you gone, you will be gone.

A-Rod will be convinced to waive his no-trade, even if it takes Big Stein going Warden Norton on him and putting him in solitary for a month and then threatening to cast him down with the Sodomites.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Say it all you want..

..but you haven't offered a good example of this happening in a similar situation involving the NYY.

Hell, if I was the Boss I would be more pissed at Carl Pavano than ARod, yet he is still collecting checks from the Yankees.

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on Oct 8, 2006 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What would it take

to get A-Rod?

I thought about starting a diary for this, but it would only lead to people bitching about how it's not going to happen so it's pointless to even discuss.

Hill is a given. They'd want two more pitchers for sure and a position player. Marmol? Howry? Marshall? Pie? We don't have any hot, young 3B prospect. Moore is still isn't near ready, but we wouldn't need him if/when we sign A-Ram to an extension. So he could be a throw-in. I imagine the Yanks would want to take on as little salary as possible, so getting them to take Izituris just for his salary probably won't happen.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus on Oct 8, 2006 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I still say extend Aramis without him opting out..

...then trade him plus a Marshall or Marmol or Guzman for A-Rod.

Other than that idea, I don't see how we could beat out the Angels in the prospect department.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd prefer to do everything we can

to keep A-Ram.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus on Oct 8, 2006 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So would I...

...but if it's between Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez in the middle of our order, and Derrek Lee and Alex Rodriguez in the middle of our order, I think you've got to take door number 2.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll take door number 3

D-Lee
A-Rod
A-Ram

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus on Oct 8, 2006 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If it can be done...

...absolutely.

I just don't see how.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd throw them

Prior. Maybe giving up Prior will let us keep Hill.

Yes, I know Prior is injured as often as I am hated, but maybe Prior, Pie, and a combo of Marmol, Marshall, Howry, Mateo, and pitcher X will get it done. I've given up on Prior, he should have been traded last year for Tejada.

Keeping Hill would be great, but I imagine he's the first pitcher the Yankees will ask for.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus on Oct 8, 2006 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Prior + Hill and perhaps you have a starting point

But would that be better than what other teams can offer?

The Angels can offer Brandon Wood, Ervin Santana, and Kendry Morales, and would probably be easily convinced to throw in Chone Figgins, and a bullpen arm like Scot Shields if they can keep one of their top prospects.

Dodgers would certainly be in the mix with Andy LaRoche, Jonathan Broxton, and perhaps even Chad Billingsley to throw out there.

Though it would be a bad deal to me, tomas thinks the White Sox would be serious contenders with Crede and Buehrle or Garcia to offer.

The Astros would probably be willing to burn Hunter Pence, Troy Patton, and Morgan Ensberg, possibly more.

Who knows, maybe the Diamondbacks would be wanting to make a splash and they have a bunch of high quality young players to offer, though very little pitching.

Of course it would have to be a team that A-Rod would be willing to go to.

But for the win-now Yankee mentality, very little to nothing can beat a Cub offer of Aramis Ramirez and a young pitcher or two. PR-wise this would probably be the best move for the Yankees as well.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Zambrano

is better than ANYONE can offer, there isnt a question about that. The Cubs are on borrowed time with his back, shoulder, and "internet" elbow, trading now is probably prudent.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

A good point...

Zambrano is about to jump up to about 15-17M per season too.

Man that's a tough trade though. A-Rod for Zambrano.

A 32 year old shortstop for a 25 year old top quality starting pitcher. Wow. We'd have to ask for more than just A-Rod, the Yankes would have to throw in Philip Hughes as well I would think.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, thats what i said above

you know what they say about thinking alike.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The isnt going to be any extention

without a no-trade clause, and if Aramis wants to go to NY he can just sign a free agent deal there. It isn't reasonable to think of any trade involving Aramis, the time to do that was in July. Unfortunately July is the time the club learned Andy MacPhail was being forced out as President. (and if you don't believe Hendry know, you're crazy) This likely effected possible deals of Ramirez as well as Pierre.

As I said the other day if you want A-Rod, offer Zambrano and demand Phillip Hughes and A-Rod in return. Its likely Zambrano will break down eventually from the abuse he's taken and getting Hughes and A-Rod would go A LONG way towards making this team a contender.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That should say "There isn't going....."

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seeing Z in a Yankees uniform would kill me

but Hughes has flat-out gaudy numbers.

I don't think Hendry would trade Z. Even if he did get A-Rod and Hughes, people would still want his resignation.

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus on Oct 8, 2006 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No i dont believe he would

he is simply too passive and to quote someone else (sorry I can't remember who) to reactionary. A quality GM would explore this, a GM of Hendry's ability almost certainly will not.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If we traded Z for A-Rod and Hughes

Since it looks like Hughes would benefit most from another year in the minors (at least let him pitch at AA), we'd have the ability to sign Zito or Schmidt which would be really ncie. We'd still need sign a second tier FA pitcher, so our lineup would look like:

Zito
Hill
Miller
Lilly or Meche
Prior/Marshall/O'Malley/Mateo

Marshall would probably benefit most from some time at Iowa, same goes for the other two (especially since O'Malley had less than two freaking games).

"Incidentally, Colossus was right and I was wrong about Maddux being dealt." -Al Yellon

by colossus on Oct 8, 2006 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Cubs

are a 90 loss team next year, you might as well let the pitchers pitch in Chicago (not unlike Detroit a couple years ago) If Hughes was added there is no reason to have him in Tennessee (what is the official name of the new team anyway?) Let him get his feet wet up here, without the pressure of playing for a winner.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

no point

in getting arod if the cubs are as far away as you say.

by tomas21 on Oct 8, 2006 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

sure there is

even though arod has career type numbers, he has 6-8 years left of useful life. arod will be plenty able to help out in '08 or '09, when this battleship has turned around.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

weren't you

the one quoting the study on deterioration of play with age? i think 6-8 years of productivity is pretty generous.

i'd love to have him, but if you give up zambrano for him you haven't really gained anything. you'll just lose games 8-7 instead of 3-2. plus arod will make close to double that of zambrano next year, and since we have a self-imposed salary cap we will buy one less free agent pitcher, and instead use another marmol/guzman/mateo etc type.

trade z and we have the worst rotation in baseball.

by tomas21 on Oct 8, 2006 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Z's salary in arby alone is about to jump up...

to about 11M. And chances are, if we do intend to keep him, this is the year to lock him up to a long term contract where he will probably average around 14-15M.

So A-Rod wouldn't be making double at all.

Subtracting Zambrano from the rotation does hurt the Cubs unless they spend money to pick up another starter or two, and work the deal with the Yankees so they give up prospect Philip Hughes.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

zambrabo will earn

somewhere between 8-10 short of an extension.

Arod will collect 17. not exactly double, but considerably more than Z. and for a team with not much budget room to work with and lots of holes to fill, it might not be the best move.

and i don't see how losing zambrano and gaining arod makes us better. if we get arod most likely he'll be replacing ramirez (i think keeping ramirez and trading for arod is unrealistic). if we lose zambrano we're likely to replace him with someone like lily. i tihnk the gain from going from ram to rod is overshadowed by the loss from z to lily.

by tomas21 on Oct 8, 2006 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

if not traded

zambrano will be extended this winter at about 15 per, if you can get hughes and arod - i think you jump at that.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

what's the point in

extending him this year if you're going to give him 15 per?
might as well wait it out at this point and extend him at teh end of the season if he doesn't get hurt.

by tomas21 on Oct 8, 2006 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

because someone may

sign a 17mm per contract in the meantime. Im not saying its wise, but the majority of teams (and BP has a great idea on why this is unwise) like to sign players to achieve a level of payroll certainty. The Cubs are clearly one of these teams (the Derrek Lee contract being a good example) If youd like to read the article I could find it for you.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed, if you can work out Hughes...

...you sign the deal and forget about it.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"reactive" I believe you meant...

...and you would have been quoting moi.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i also meant "too"

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

True SS...

...But Ramirez can't sign a free agent deal there until A-Rod is traded.

The A-Rod trade could very well take ALL offseason and not get consumated until close to Spring Training. There's always the distinct possibility that we are all exaggerating how much the Yankees will want to get rid of A-Rod, and they could simply tell the fans to piss off and that they are keeping him.

My guess is the Yankees will do whatever they can to quell fan discontent with A-Rod and not trade him until they absolutely are left with no choice.

And Aramis won't be hanging around until then to sign with the Yankees.

And since Aramis is out for the money, it seems that Hendry would just give him what he wants, 13-15M per, extended to 2010 with a NTC, and then bank on Aramis wanting to go to New York if the Yanks come calling for him in exchange for A-Rod.

If not, then Ramirez stays and we bask in his lazy .290-.300 with 35 home runs and 100+ RBIs.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why?

But Ramirez can't sign a free agent deal there until A-Rod is traded.

He sure as hell could.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Aramis could play

first, the Yankees FIND a place to put you.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course he could sign with the Yankees...

...I'm not saying he couldn't, it's just unlikely to me that the Yankees would, after watching Sheffield flounder around out of position, sign Aramis for 15M per and then stick him at first base.

It would also put them at even more of a disadvantage in trading A-Rod as everyone would know they would be pressing to make such a deal happen in order to get Aramis back to the one position where he only somewhat embarrasses himself defensively.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are you arguing

that first is a harder position to play than third?

I would assume you aren't saying moving to first from right field after missing four months is the same as a 3B sliding across the diamond to first?

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My argument is that Aramis Ramirez...

...is a defensive liability anywhere on the diamond. But less so at 3rd base than probably anywhere else if for no other reason then he's played there the most.

And I think the floundering of Sheffield at first will play a part in any decision the Yankees make about putting anyone out of position in order to benefit offensively.

I mean seriously, can you see Aramis being able to handle Captain Jetes errant throws, or even A-Rod's air mails if he were to stick around?

There's also the question of money now. The Yankees run at a loss. They need pitching. Last year the Yanks were strangely quiet for the most part, citing payroll, and then to get to the postseason, added Abreu's hefty salary. Adding Aramis's 15M per year, to an offense that doesn't need him, seems counterproductive to the Yankees attempts to get better. Adding Aramis, keeping A-Rod, and then going after Matsuzaka, Schmidt, or Zito, would push the Yankee payroll to heights they might not even be able to handle. And that's with declining Sheffield and re-doing Mussina's contract.

Replacing A-Rod with Aramis is something else. Or better yet, your proposed Z for A-Rod deal.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

When I say mostly quiet...

that to me is by Yankee standards which are different than just about any team in baseball.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have the feeling they'll be noisy

this off season, especially since they are going to be able to deduct the cost of construction from their luxury tax charge. I wouldnt be suprised to see them add a net positive 25 million to payroll (and they won't be any worse for wear because of the stadium expense write-off)

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, I'm sure they'll be noisy this offseason...

...heads will roll in Gotham to be sure and big changes are in store. I do think they may have to dump some guys, including Abreu if they can find a taker, in order to do all they want to.

And as far as Aramis to NY goes, either by trade or by FA, we'll just have to see. I grant you the Yankees may very well do what you say they will, they certainly have done so in the past, I just think they might balk at putting him out of position initially and wait until they consumate a deal for Rodriguez. And in the meantime, if Jim locks up Ramirez long-term, which though increasingly unlikely by the day, could still happen, then we do have the best position player to offer the Yankees in exchange him.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

About the disadvantage

all the teams in the League know the Yankees are likely to want to trade A-Rod in the off season, the problem is A LOT of teams are going to be in the market for the former MVP. Regardless of the number of corner infielders on the Yankee roster, Cashman will be able to extract value because of his obvious demand.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

A "lot" of teams?

Name all the teams that can both afford him, AND need either a SS or 3B. My count has this: Angels Dodgers Cubs White Sox Astros

by Al on Oct 8, 2006 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sure a lot of teams would try to make...

...room for him.

But of those teams you listed, those would be the teams with the best to offer in return.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And...

... I doubt he approves a trade to the Astros.

by Al on Oct 8, 2006 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why wouldn't he?

Oh, right. Texas isn't exactly simpatico with A-Rod.

But then that was the Rangers side of things.

If the Cubs are willing to part with Big Z, then A-Rod would become a Cub. Hard to see us doing that though.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Without a position to play?

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

See below

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the actual number is..

...4/66 with the Rangers eating the rest. Would you pay this, plus give up players for someone who has never played in the NL and would have left three teams on bad terms with his teammates, OR would you go 5/75 for Soriano who has proved his ability in the NL and would not cost you any players? If I remember correctly Arod is one year older.

The Yanks have a problem. There is blood in the water and no intelligent GM is going to make some blockbuster trade with a big movement of players---simply because they don't have to.

Arod and Manny are two peas in a pod. They're worth more to their teams than they can be traded for------a similar situation the Tribune Company finds itself in with the Cubs (i.e., the Cubs will make more money for them than the Cubs will for new owners who pay what the Trib would consider a fair market price).

I wrote the longest post and best post I ever have. And it just dissapeared, I am so dissapointed right now. Sorry.

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Oct 8, 2006 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree on that...

...but the famous temper of Big Stein is known for making moves that don't necessarily benefit the Yankees.

If media and fan pressure state that they want A-Rod gone, and Big Stein wants A-Rod gone, there's no way in hell the Humble Brian Cashman can dam a flood that great.

That being said, I do think the Yankees will get high quality for A-Rod because there will be plenty of teams lining up for his services, and that will create a bidding war sooner or later.

And Soriano versus A-Rod?

I'll take A-Rod anyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Soriano had the classic Contract Year Season. Once he gets 5/75, my bet is he plays closer to his days in Texas, which weren't all that great.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I tto would take Arod over Soriano...

...even with the problems he brings off the field. I don't think there will be a bidding war however and if Lou is the new manager it means Arod is staying.

I wrote the longest post and best post I ever have. And it just dissapeared, I am so dissapointed right now. Sorry.

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Oct 8, 2006 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No question

Alex Rodriguez's VORP last season: 50.4
Alfonso Soriano's VORP: 49.2

Alex Rodriguez also plays a key defensive position (SS) well. Soriano plays a key defensive position (2B) poorly, although he plays a lesser defensive position (LF) well.

In Alex Rodrguez's worst season, he was better than Soriano in his best season.

And since did Mr. "I'm not playing left field and you can't make me" become Mr. Team Player?

Also, it is beginning to look like the NL is far inferior to the AL right now. Much of Soriano's big year might be attributable to a weaker league. Rodriguez would likely have a similar spike next year in the NL.

It is no contest. I would much rather have Alex Rodriguez than Alfonso Soriano.

by Josh77 on Oct 8, 2006 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And I would like to have Maddux back

Guys A Rod is NOT going to happen. I don't care
how miserable George makes his life as a Yankee
( and I am not sure how much worse he could make it)
he is NOT going to accept a deal to the Cubs. Moreover I wouldn't trade pitching for him. I don't care how crazy this sounds STARTING PITCHING IS WHAT EVERYONE WANTS and needs If this years Yankee debacle didn't teach you that , you
have not been watching. Great so trade Hill, Pie & Marshall
for A-Rod ( or if you want to be nuts trade Z)
Congrats you have A -Rod hitting 350 and a starting
rotation of Z, Lily, Suppan ( those two are optimistic)
Marmol & Guzman. Have a nice season.
The Cubs can NOT afford to trade Hill ( unless the Marlins
offer Willis in a salary dump). We need all the pitching
we can get.
A-Rod may be a lot better than Soriano but Soriano
can be BOUGHT, A -Rod ain't coming so lets try to
be realistic.

I love the ballpark. I love the city. I love the fans. Aside from how we've played this year, there's nothing not to like about Chicago." Greg Maddux 7/29/06

by jessica on Oct 8, 2006 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You underestimate Emperor Steinbrenner...

...at your own peril.

If New York wants him gone, A-Rod WILL be gone. You're talking nonsense. Nobody stays around if Big Stein wants them gone.

And A-Rod was already quoted in the Times as saying "if they want me here, I want to be here."

So, logically speaking, if New York makes it clear they no longer want A-Rod in pinstripes, then it is pretty obvious he won't use his NT unless they are trying to deal him to the Royals. The only thing A-Rod will be able to do with his NT is decide where he lands, not whether or not he can stay.

To say that A-Rod has more power with his NTC than Steinbrenner with all the hordes of hell at his disposal is ludicrious.

Him coming to the Cubs is highly unlikely, but him getting traded this offseason is looking more and more probable by the minute.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you made a series of good points....

...I agree the cubs biggest need is starting pitching (followed by a closer, set-up pitcher and middle relief). To me,a trade of what little pitching we have for Arod is asinine. I have a great chance of being wrong, but if Lou is hired to manage the Yanks, Arod stays because Lou is just about his biggest fan. In that scenario, it would take a lot to pry Arod away and it just wouldn't be worth it. If Arod is on the market, I don't believe a bidding war will erupt and there will not be many teams that really have a place for him both on the field, in the clubhouse and economically.

It's amazing to me that the season ended only a week ago and already people here think we have talent to trade. We don't, outside of a very few players.I for one think we need to have as many quality players on the roster as we can, not trade what little we have for a superstar (who could admittedly improve the team significantly--depending on what was given up---but will disappear in September and October just like before if those games ever become important to the cubs again).

I wrote the longest post and best post I ever have. And it just dissapeared, I am so dissapointed right now. Sorry.

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Oct 8, 2006 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Steinbrenner

hires Piniella, then the Yankees are doubtful to trade Rodriguez, as Sweet Lou will convince the Boss that he can make a Yankee out of him.

And if the Yankees decide to trade A-Rod, the Angels and Dodgers are far more likely targets, as they have the prospects and current veterans that the Yankees would want.

But here's the thing. I don't want Soriano at any (realistic) price. He's the next Adrian Beltre. He's going to sign a long term contract that someone is going to regret very quickly.

by Josh77 on Oct 8, 2006 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What current veterans?

Prospects I can see, veterans I do not. It's like you just threw in veterans without checking to see what vets the Angels and Dodgers have that would be of use to the Yankees.

Would the Yankees want Bartolo Colon? No way in hell. Chone Figgins? As part of a package maybe. But what vet could the Angels offer that the Yankees would prize over us if we were to offer up Aramis?

Same with the Dodgers. Who? What vet? Brad Penny? Derek Lowe? Brett Tomko? Mark Hendrickson? Hardly. And you can pretty much preclude any OF as the Yankees OF is set for at least another season and the Yankees top brass is trying to figure out a way to get Melky Cabrera more PT in the future.

If we open the door to anyone, including Carlos Zambrano, we can match just about any offer the Yankees get.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 8, 2006 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

Scot Shields, John Lackey or Kelvim Escobar for the Angels. J. D. Drew or Derek Lowe for the Dodgers.

The Yankees would be interested in all those guys

by Josh77 on Oct 8, 2006 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What's your reasoning behind J.D. Drew?

Are the Yankees going to invent a new outfield position? North by Northwest Field?

Last I checked Abreu, Damon, and Matsui have the OF pretty well locked up. If A-Rod is traded the Yankees will need a 3rd baseman, not yet another OF signed to a long-term contract with nowhere to play. Right now Yankees brass is trying to figure out a way to get Melky Cabrera more playing time. Trading for Drew seems counterproductive.

And I'd say there's a pretty much no chance in hell the Angels would part with Lackey, especially if they can get Manny or Tejada or Vernon Wells, for less than their best starting pitcher.

hhhhiftqdaa

by theprognosticator on Oct 9, 2006 3:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hopefully Derrek Lee isnt the next

Adrian Beltre, I think he might be though :(

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If he is, it will be for different reasons...

...because I'm convinced DLee is an honorable person who will always give his best. Beltre had a hot partial season, took advantage of it---as he should have---then reverted to what he'd always been and doesn't appear to be too concerned about it. Whereas, I think Lee will bust his ass until the day his contract expires.

PS-continued prayers and best wishes for his daughter and the entire family. You know mom and dad are tormented day and night--I really wish all of them the very best.

I wrote the longest post and best post I ever have. And it just dissapeared, I am so dissapointed right now. Sorry.

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Oct 8, 2006 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Derrek Lee

is a great guy, Im just not convinced he's a great player. If you want to scare yourself a little, do a little comparison of beltre's 2004 and lee's 2005 vis-a-vis their previous career marks.

by Santos Sorrow on Oct 8, 2006 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have and your point is well taken....

...what we don't have is post-contract stats to compare because of the injury. If your trying to say the cubs overpaid DLee based on his past history, then I would have to agree with you. I am sure we'll get his best though which is more than the Mets can say.

I wrote the longest post and best post I ever have. And it just dissapeared, I am so dissapointed right now. Sorry.

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Oct 8, 2006 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Boss Steinbrenner

probably burst a couple blood vessels after yesterday's game, with his wrath firmly focused on Torre. What managerial candidate, in their right mind would want to work for this tyrant?

In defense of Torre, he won 4 world championships and brought the team into the postseason every year. Is it his fault Cashman didn't give him the pitching support he needed?

If they paid me 7 large NOT to deal with old man Steinbrenner (and the NY media) ever again I would take the damn money and run.

by JFCubFan on Oct 8, 2006 3:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs