Gallagher, Veal, Murton, and Howry for Manny?

by shawndgoldman on Nov 28, 2006 1:16 AM CST Comment 31 comments

I know there's already a Manny diary up, but this one's related to a rumor tied to the Cubs.

According to "Al's favorite site" (COUGH), the Cubs have offered two of our best pitching prospects, one of our best relievers, and the best hitter to come out of "our" farm system since Mark Grace for Manny Ramirez. Even if you don't like MLBTradeRumors, don't blast this one based on your opinion of the site - the guy that runs the site is out of town and Jeff Sackmann from BrewCrewBall and minorleaguesplits.com is the one who posted this one.

I'm going to post my opinion on this below so as not to bias the poll...

Poll

Would you do this trade?

Yes, even if Boston doesn't send money back.

40 votes

Yes, but only if Boston sends money back

38 votes

No, not even if Boston paid half Manny's salary

96 votes

174 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Comments

I'll be the first to chime in......

because its late and I'm probably one of the only posters still around plus I'm kind of excited about all this Manny talk. I say do it......even if no money is coming back although I would assume that some will if prospects are involved.

Any time you get a chance to get one of the premier talents in the game for what would amount to a below average LF, an overpaid set up man and 2 prospects.....I'm of the opinion that you have to do it.

Assuming that Hendry still intends on getting SP, I see no reason not to add Manny.

RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Nov 28, 2006 1:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Personally, i would not do this...

unless Boston paid a significant part of Manny's contract. I think he's properly valued in the current market, but given the prospects we're trading away, we're "mortgaging the future" for the present. If we do that, we'll need some money to spend on pitching.

Also a deal with Veal, Gallagher, and Pie instead of Murton would have a shot at a younger slugger such as Vernon Wells or Miguel Cabrera. For the money we'd be spending, we may be able to sign Lugo AND J.D. Drew.

I love the idea of Manny Ramirez in the Cubs' lineup, but given his age i wouldn't make this deal because of the significant investement financially and in future talent. The large financial investment would likely prevent the Cubs from getting the kind of pitching they'd need to compete near-term, and the large investment in prospects would hamper their ability to compete down the road.

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Nov 28, 2006 1:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Alot of what your.....

saying is based on the assumpton that a Vernon Wells or Miguel Cabrera could be obtained for those players. Ideally, sure I'd take Cabrera over Manny too, who wouldn't given his age and ability?

I honestly don't think this is a move that Hendry would make if he's not 100% sure that he can still get pitching in some way, shape or form. Hendry knows this farm system, if he's willing to part with Veal and Gallagher then he must know something about the rest of the minor league pitching crop that the rest of the pundits don't because Hendry has always been hesitant to give up prospects.

RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Nov 28, 2006 1:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think i wasn't clear...

my main point is that i don't think this deal allows us to win now or in the future as well as we can if we don't make the deal (assuming there's not significant money coming back). If i were to trade Veal and Gallagher, i'd want young talent in return such as Cabrera or Wells. I may not be able to get it, but that's what i'd be demanding for those arms.

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Nov 28, 2006 9:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ken Rosenthal

has an article up on Manny and says that the Red Sox are talking to four teams--the Rangers, Dodgers, Giants and Padres.

I think I'll take his word on this over "our favorite site" and their secret Cubs source.

I still wouldn't do it if they accepted it.

A little song, a little dance. A little seltzer down your pants

by Josh77 on Nov 28, 2006 1:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't do that either.

Those are probably the two best remaining pitching prospects in the system. Manny's great -- but that's WAY too much to give up.

by Al on Nov 28, 2006 4:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

they may be

our best, but they're pretty far away and a don't have a good percentage shot at being in the cubs rotation.

if goldman is correct and that package could net us cabrera or wells, then of course you take those guys over malcontent/no-defense manny.

i don't think we are building for the future. we're building for now. our farm system doesn't produce well for us, so why not try to get something of value out of it.

manny's age doesn't matter. there are only 2 years left on the deal.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Nov 28, 2006 7:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely...

... to get Cabrera or Wells, guys you could build around for several years. But I don't think Cabrera's available.

Wells -- now, you might be on to something.

by Al on Nov 28, 2006 8:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's closer to my point...

I'm not saying we could get Cabrera or Wells for this type of package. However, that's the type of player i'd want in return if i was giving up the team's two best pitching prospects. I'd even let them take Pie instead of Murton to get one of those younger guys in return.

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Nov 28, 2006 9:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually

Gallagher and Veal aren't that far away. Gallagher will start AAA this year, and Veal will start at AA. Barring any major setbacks Gallagher will be ready for the rotation at the end of next year or the beginning of 2008. Veal, likewise, will most-likely be ready by 2008 as well. So no their not ready yet, but they ARE close to being ready. I agree with Al that we'd be giving up too much. Another thing, good starting pitching is hard to come by these days. Its much easier to get a bat via FA, or trade than a pitcher. Everybody seems to need SP. So, when you have to get top-of-the-rotation guys from outside your organization you'll have to pay a TON for it, or give up a Ton for it. These days in order to have a really good staff, you need to have your OWN pitchers in your system. I'll take pitching over hitting anyday of the week. While this organization has struggled to produce position players, it has produced pitching. Zambrano, Maddux, Willis, Pinto, Garland, Hill, Prior, Wood, ect.

by Macy on Nov 28, 2006 9:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

interesting.....but in reality it is not a good

Charting young pitchers who move through the system quickly is never easy, Gallagher could make the team this year, I hear that he is just beginning to master a wicked slider to go along with his extraordinary curve and solid sinker/FB...meaning he has three out pitches. He also has a below average straight change and a rising FB in the 93MPH....SOUNDS LIKE MADDUX!

Veal is probably a year to two away but in reality as much as when they are ready is when they are needed. Unless the Cubs sign Zambrano and unless they sign or trade for a #2-#3 level SP for a couple of years it is plain system stupid.

Ramirez is one of the best offensive players in the game, but how many games? Murton is a MLB player but not a an All Star, Howry is the same,

I say go else where to finish off the OF.

My guess is that Gallagher could be up this year depending on further acquisition in the FA or trade or injury and Veal up in '08 or '09.

Bill Veeck planted Ivy during 'The Depression', and over time the Ivy Walls has become the most distinct symbol of Wrigley Field.

by Ivy Walls on Nov 28, 2006 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're right, that's an insane amount

to give up for Ramirez. Olney is saying that the package the Yankees got for Sheffield is looking reasonable. This rumor has a semi-proven ML outfielder at near league minumum, an elite setup man, if not adequate closer, plus prime prospects. Seems pretty ridiculous to me.

by davidalanu on Nov 28, 2006 9:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Completely unrelated to your point

Murton was actually acquired from Boston. The Cubs can't really take credit for that one. It's still Grace and counting.....

by rlpete on Nov 28, 2006 8:49 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

yup...

That's why "our" is in parentheses. He's the best thing to come out of our farm system since Mark Grace, even if he isn't really a product of that farm system.

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Nov 28, 2006 9:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

whens sorianos press conference??

by china423 on Nov 28, 2006 9:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

The well is dry enough

Unless you got a young, elite player (some mentioned Cabrera, who is probably not available), I wouldn't trade what's left of the farm system. Rumors are that Boston will take something less than the perfect deal. If that's true, the Cubs shouldn't be giving their only remaining prospects.

If it was just Gallagher and someone else, plus the others, maybe. Including both Veal and Gallagher is too much.

formerly mfarrell

by gravedigger on Nov 28, 2006 9:33 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I agree...

I want Manny badly. (yes, I know that sounds bad)

Anyway, you can't give up everything. It's one thing to throw in the extra year to ensure you get Soriano, it's a completely other thing to throw in perhaps your second best prospect just to ensure you get Manny.

I'd see if I can't throw in Pawelek instead of Gallagher. People on her have said he might be ready by the end of next year, probably in 2008. If the Cubs keep Gallagher and Pie, I don't think it's a bad trade.

Soriano + Schmidt + 2nd Tier Pitcher + JD Drew - Zero Prospects = Wow!!!

by tyger1147 on Nov 28, 2006 9:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

I'd trade Pie and Gallagher. But not Veal and Gallagher. But I'd also be concerned about giving up that much young talent, PLUS one of the most consistent relievers, PLUS a young player who is going to be good for a while. I'd probably do it - with some reservations.

But not both Veal and Gallagher!

formerly mfarrell

by gravedigger on Nov 28, 2006 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

absolutely

Macy and now you hit the nail right on the head.

The well is dry enough, and we're ready to throw the last few drops of water fo torward the inferno that is Manny Ramirez....give it time, he'll retract this whole "trade me" circus tirade and it'll be over once again.

Just wouldn't be Hot Stove season without Manny trade rumors.

TRAMMELL!

by Faith plus 1 on Nov 28, 2006 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nostalgic/Optimistic that I am...

I get scared when I hear the name Prior mentioned in these conversations. Am I the only Cubs Fan that despite what has happened the last few years still refuses to give up on him? I mean this Veal/Gallagher deal is one I would NEVER make but that's logical, on the other hand, me clinging on to Prior like that...illogical and probably unhealthy.

GREAT SUCCESS!!!

by Chitown Mojo on Nov 28, 2006 10:04 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure.....

anyone has mentioned Prior.

RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!! Get MANNY!!!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Nov 28, 2006 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Great trade for the Cubs

Those 2 pitchers might be the best in our farm system, but there 2 years away from pitching and you just never know with any young pitching. Manny is a hall of famer. He crushes all the time. Day games, night games, lefties, righties, he hits everything and everyone. The only question is can Henry still spend more money to get some pitching. If he can, do it.

by cubfaninSTL on Nov 28, 2006 10:21 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

It isn't just that they're the best...

...they're pretty much all that's left. I know there are a few other arms, but I don't think any have the potential of Veal and Gallagher.

That reminds me, I read somewhere recently that the Cubs thought Pawelek was overweight? I seem to remember when they introduced him at Wrigley, the kid was a stick. How'd that happen?

formerly mfarrell

by gravedigger on Nov 28, 2006 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Overweight?

Maybe the reference was to "conditioning." For some players, that would mean losing weight. For Pawelek, it may mean that he isn't doing his running and weightlifting to build strength (and velocity) as they would like. They may see him as likely to break down over the course of a season (a la skinny Juan Cruz) and want him to beef up a little.

The call of the Cub fan, c. 1893: "one long, ravaged, derisive yell...a cyclonic whoop!"

by zambranofan on Nov 28, 2006 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The reference

is to Pawelek's conditioning not his weight. They said he needs to get into better shape in order to pitch deeper into games. He doesn't lack in talent, but apparently lacks in committment. He might have moved up from Boise to Peoria if he would have been in better shape. This is a guy whos dad paid him a certain amount of money for every strikeout and shutout he produced. Maybe we should take away the money we paid him, and slowly give it back to him for every good game he pitches. Or store it at Wrigley Field until he get's to the majors. Once he get's there we'll give it back to him.

by Macy on Nov 28, 2006 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Lost cause?

Don't have much hope for a first-round draft pick who can't stay motivated enough to advance out of rookie-A-ball a year after being drafted. What a waste of talent.

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Nov 28, 2006 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No doubt a

waste of talent. Even if someone likes money when they sign on draft day, isn't the ultimate dream to reach the majors? Screwing around in Rookie-A-Ball is a waste of time for the organization and himself.

by Macy on Nov 28, 2006 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Conditioning

Thanks for the clarification. I can see how, him being a stick, they'd want him to concentrate on conditioning.

formerly mfarrell

by gravedigger on Nov 28, 2006 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

NO NO NO

not every player in our minor league system that is good, goodness, one chip, not all. I love Manny but not at that price

Throw out your Gold Teeth and see how they Roll

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Nov 28, 2006 11:22 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I get the sentiment...

but I'm desperate. I think acquring Manny is worth it, because that gives us a 2-3 year window to win it all. Soriano, Manny, D-Lee, A-Ram, Barrett...that lineup might stack up with the greatest lineups ever (keep in mind, I'm not saying they'd be THE greatest). If D-Lee returns somewhere close to 05 form, then WOW!

DUNSTON!

by thekansasian on Nov 28, 2006 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously...

you can only go on probable potential of teams. Sure, a lesser Cubs team MIGHT win it all, but it's not likely. Sure, an All-Star lineup MIGHT not win it, but it's more likely.

I'm leery of giving up the whole farm system, but hell, give me three years of solid hope instead of another ten years of "Ehhh...."

Soriano + Schmidt + 2nd Tier Pitcher + JD Drew - Zero Prospects = Wow!!!

by tyger1147 on Nov 28, 2006 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs