Maybe Will Carroll was right..

by jolietconvict on Mar 14, 2006 6:51 PM CST Comment 57 comments

Mark Prior left camp with a shoulder injury today.

Cubs right-hander Mark Prior left camp with shoulder soreness Tuesday morning and will be examined by Dr. Lewis Yocum in Los Angeles Wednesday.

Prior was playing long toss before a scheduled bullpen session at Cubs camp Tuesday when he complained of discomfort in the posterior of his right shoulder.

General manager Jim Hendry said it was the first time this spring that Prior had complained of soreness. The injury came two days after his first simulated game of the spring.

"He's tired of it, too," manager Dusty Baker said. "You can tell he was a little distraught by the whole thing. He wants to pitch, and he wants to pitch with nothing wrong."

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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My guess is

Prior will have surgery on it and miss the entire season. I'd put money on it.

by escapegoat on Mar 14, 2006 7:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

My only question is this:

Will this enable Hendry and Baker to yet again blame injuries for their failures in 2006 thus allowing them to retain their jobs beyond 2006?

I'd never hope the Cubs lose, but if they are, i'd sure like it be done so those 2 people haven't any excuses they could possibly use therefore ensuring their departure at the end of the season.

by Maddog on Mar 14, 2006 7:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So if Prior is gone...our rotation is

Carlos Zambrano
Greg Maddux
Glendon Rusch
Jerome Williams
Rich Hill

by Ienpw on Mar 14, 2006 8:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Angel Guzman?

... or maybe a trade for someone?

Remember, the Cubs got Matt Clement in the last week of spring training in 2002.

by Al on Mar 14, 2006 8:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

guzman

has a 13 era in spring and probably has another 50 pitches left before the next surgery.

as a stopgap, maybe -- but if we're throwing guzman into the fire, we may as well admit this year is over and start trading the players we aren't going to resign for 2007.

by gaius marius on Mar 14, 2006 8:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Trade

But who are you willing to give up just to replace Prior? And would such a trade really be the difference that allows the Cubs to contend in 2006?

If Prior isn't going to be a serious contributor this season, it's time to admit that the Cubs need to reload for the future and hang onto the young players that are sure to be required in a late ST trade.

by Jed Taylor on Mar 15, 2006 4:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

shoot

me in the head

by china423 on Mar 14, 2006 7:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

This

sucks bigger than anything right now. Shoot me in the head TWICE! Holy Cow.

by mrcubsfan on Mar 14, 2006 7:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Shoot us all in the hEaD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is some shit!

Anyone can have a bad century...

by Kinky Reggae on Mar 14, 2006 8:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I don't get...

Baker's comment. If this is "the first time this spring that Prior ha[s] complained of soreness," then what is Baker talking about when he says that Prior is "tired of it, too"?

Is this a slip-up by Baker and an implicit acknowledgement that Prior has actually been feeling pain for a while?

by Molechaser on Mar 14, 2006 8:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

All their comments.....

reaked of a hidden injury.

The one that got me, was Rothchild saying he is "tentitively pencilled in to start."

Again, how many 25 year olds have this many issues? Johan Santana is only one year older. He has made all his starts this spring (and in the WBC). As I said before, where there is smoke, there is fire.

JUNE 1, 2006 = The day Dusty the toothpick chewing clown is fired!

by industywebusty on Mar 14, 2006 8:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

more than you think

the pitchers who "survive" pitch in the majors.

by Ienpw on Mar 14, 2006 8:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're reading too much into that...

... all it likely means is, "I'm tired of this happening every single season."

by Al on Mar 14, 2006 8:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And...

THAT's not a problem? :)

by Molechaser on Mar 14, 2006 8:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

giving up the farm

for zito doesnt sound like such a bad deal right about now does it??? not implying that anything was close to happening, but that was the argument of what it would take

by geetarnwhiskey on Mar 14, 2006 8:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah it does..

if prior is done barry zito isnt going to suddenly make us a winner

selling all of our prosepcts for one guy is a good idea if we were a piece away from the puzzle

we arent

KSUCubbie

by ksucubbie on Mar 14, 2006 8:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

nod

selling all of our prosepcts for one guy is a good idea if we were a piece away from the puzzle

we arent

That's for damn sure.

2006 -- AC036097 -- Eamus Catuli!

by priorpwnz on Mar 14, 2006 8:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

there's some truth

this team is a handful of players from contending for anything, with or without prior.

by gaius marius on Mar 14, 2006 8:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

anyone who thinks

that this "just happened" is naive beyond belief.

admit it, folks. THEY LIED TO YOU. AGAIN.

by gaius marius on Mar 14, 2006 8:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

holy SHIFT key, batman!

capital letters? a whole string of them?

step away from the ledge, man... maybe tribco. will sell the Cubs.

The Cubs will thrive in twenty-oh-five... or sometime thereafter!

by shawndgoldman on Mar 14, 2006 8:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

only rarely :)

i hope to preserve the impact for critical points, like this one.

by gaius marius on Mar 15, 2006 9:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A brilliant english teacher once taught me...

that we follow the rules of grammar, so when we break them it is done for a reason. You seem to be employing the opposite strategy (and well, i might add).

The Cubs will thrive in twenty-oh-five... or sometime thereafter!

by shawndgoldman on Mar 15, 2006 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I would like to know, gaius...

... what evidence you have to back up your claim of lying.

Be specific.

by Al on Mar 15, 2006 4:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

al, you cannot be serious

by gaius marius on Mar 15, 2006 9:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Be specific.

I quoted Jim Hendry in today's post.

Tell me exactly where in that post he lied. Be specific.

by Al on Mar 15, 2006 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

all of it

you really don't see it? i doubt that. there isn't a word of truth in it, and you know it. you're just rationalizing now, using a mask of unattainable certainty to absolve you from having to acknowledge what is very probably true.

by gaius marius on Mar 15, 2006 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

out of respect

can you answer the man's question with difinitive proof of Cubs management's lies?

In a court room, when asked for proof could you imagine the response, "you cannot be serious." Every court room would be like Adam Sandler's Big Daddy.

If you have idle and wild speculation and want to draw conclusions, that's your right. But when calling some a liar, you should back this claim up with proof.

by socalbob on Mar 15, 2006 9:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

this isn't a court room

and there is no attainable certainty.

but there is a convincing circumstantial case here. or do you expect people to believe that

-- the non-throwing throwing program

-- the rumors of his shoulder injury

-- the delays in bringing him along

-- the secrecy surrounding his throwing sessions

-- now this pain in his shoulder

is all just an improbable chain of conincidences and basically unrelated?

by gaius marius on Mar 15, 2006 9:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

so you have nothing?

Just what I thought.

What good does it do to have Prior NOT see a doctor immediately upon reporting if his shoulder is hurting? None. This lack of action would put him 2 weeks out if he really needed to see a doc. That is the proverbial "lose/lose" scenario. Everything we have heard is he was really sick and didn't work out much.

Why did he throw a simulated game last week? Because he felt well enough to do it, that's why. And he has been saying all along that he is starting the April 5th game.

As a former pitcher, I can tell you unequivocally if you are out of shape and try to step up workouts, you will get really sore. The Teres Minor in the back of the shoulder will knot up and cause pain when trying to throw because your external rotation is limited. I believe this is exactly what is happening to Prior. I had my shoulder reconstruction in '91 and know all too well about the different causes of shoulder pain.

I know his pain in the back of the shoulder is not labrum related--a good sign. So either he's really sore with knots and tight muscles or he tore his rotator cuff. We'll find out in a day or two.

by socalbob on Mar 15, 2006 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you...

... for being a voice of reason.

by Al on Mar 15, 2006 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You should read more carefully

And he has been saying all along that he is starting the April 5th game.

No, what he's said is that it's his plan to be ready for the April 5th game. That's a big difference. No one has once said that he'll be ready for 4/5.

by jolietconvict on Mar 15, 2006 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

are you really serious with that?

If he has a plan to start on 4/5, then in his mind he's STARTING on 4/5. Shoot, we don't know what will happen between now and then. Aramis Ramirez is "planning" on starting 4/5 too. But he could get hit in the face tomorrow and be lost for the season.

Jeez.

by socalbob on Mar 15, 2006 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i hope you're right

but that you would consider all this "nothing" says everything, socal. i think you have a lot of interesting views, but this rationalizing is bizarre.

by gaius marius on Mar 15, 2006 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

funny you say that

because I feel your rationalizing all this circumstantial evidence is bizzare. :-D

As I wrote, we'll find out in a day or two. Either you and some others will be eating humble pie or the conspiracy views will come out in force and the impeachment of Jim Hendry will begin.

by socalbob on Mar 15, 2006 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

indeed i hope we'll know something

by gaius marius on Mar 15, 2006 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

fwiw

larry rothschild was quoted by the ap, and i haven't really seen a lot of it so i'll reprint it here:

Hendry said there were no problems after Prior pitched two simulated innings on Sunday, and he was scheduled to pitch four on Thursday. But Rothschild seemed more concerned.

"It seems like it's a little bit more than that," Rothschild said.

i find it hard to dismiss what's going on in light of that comment, taken in conjunction with the entire circumstantial case i cited above. you can hope for the best if you like, but it seems to me pretty clear that we have in all likelihood been deceived.

i'm sure that the cubs were hoping that telling prior to do nothing all offseason would allow pain he was experiencing last year to remedy itself -- a frequent first tactic in shoulder pain, especially where the labrum is suspected -- and it didn't. now he's on the way to doc yocum.

i'd wager he'll come back recommending a scope. if prior can't long toss twice a week after six months off, it's reasonable to expect that there's some significant damage in there.

by gaius marius on Mar 15, 2006 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

facts are skewed

in reagrds to throwing. I still have my off-season conditioning manuals from the KC Royals. They had a precise program to build up our arm strength in the off-season. I will submit to you if you go from "nothing" (exactly what Prior did) to "Long-Tossing" (what Prior did) you will experience major shoulder discomfort and pain. Why? The muscles aren't ready to do it. For the first week of thorwing we played catch at 90 feet for 15 minutes every other day. Then to 120 feet every other day. And so on for 90 days until reporting to ST.

Go bench press your body weight 10 times after not working out for 4 months. Or go take 50 lb dumbbells and do 3 sets of 20 curls. You will experience the pain Prior is right now. :-O

I will say that is is in the realm of possibilities that he did indeed tear his rotator cuff. It is not a labrum problem as you alluded to because, if the reports are accurate, the pain was in the back of the shoulder.

by socalbob on Mar 15, 2006 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it might well be

that they only suspected that it might be the labrum, and gave him the time off. hopefully, they were wrong.

but the fact that he did nothing all offseason -- which i don't think is in question -- says a lot. some have insinuted that prior was lazy; i think it's vastly more likely that he was told to do nothing because of pain he was experiencing last year.

if that pain is still there -- as appears likely -- could it be rotator cuff damage? i'm no doctor, but that seems plausible.

by gaius marius on Mar 15, 2006 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

agree

with your last statement and wrote the same thing. It's certainly plausible that he damaged his rotator cuff.

by socalbob on Mar 15, 2006 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

wrigley

ain't the only thing getting a facelift yet again.

by mike bornemann on Mar 14, 2006 8:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I don't have

anything of value to add to this discussion myself, so let me quote a poster from NSBB:

After the strange way he's been handled all spring, there's no way he's completely okay. Shoulder soreness, especially for a guy who has pretty much been babied for the last five months, is a serious issue.

He's been hurt all along. Healthy pitchers aren't treated like he was. This is absurd, and it's an insult to Cubs fans everywhere

I thought this "special program" was supposed to help him not get hurt? It's really hard not to be incredibly frustrated right now, but we really don't know yet just what is happening, so I'll reserve further judgement until tomorrow when we know more.

"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers." - Earl Weaver

by VS on Mar 14, 2006 8:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

this was obvious, i thought

he was on a non-throwing throwing program.

how is that suposed to build arm strength?

it's not, of course. they were coddling the injury all along.

by gaius marius on Mar 14, 2006 8:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

man....

this is devastating news to an already iffy ballclub.

too bad JH didn't pull the trigger on the Tejada deal, eh? although i wonder if Prior would've even passed the physical that i'm sure he would've had to take before going to Baltimore.

anyway, both he and Wood will always be cases of "what coulda been". too bad.

"that wouldn't be a home run in a phone booth."

by jinxproof on Mar 14, 2006 9:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'm not...

sad about this, just another long line of swift kicks to the balls for this Cubs fan... I'll start being sad about things like this when they stop kicking me when I'm down and let my fandom get back off the ground and dust itself off. Instead, I'm going to choose to be happy the Cubs signed Wade Miller, and still relatively pissed about the rest of the team, especially since they haven't extended Derrek Lee.

------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Mar 14, 2006 9:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Lee

Don't worry about Derrek Lee, we're just halfway through March and he's not exactly available to the Cubs at all times, playing for Team USA and all.

I'd say an extension is likely by Opening Day, kind of like Ramirez's last year.

AC036198

by gjdow on Mar 14, 2006 11:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cubs have a payroll of..

..95 meeelion dollers and with Prior out, will be lucky to finish .500.

I agree with, I believe Gaius, and if Prior is indeed going to go under the knife, which I truly believe with what's been happening this ST is a very real possibility, They should dismantle this entire team, except for Zambrano.

If Wood can stay healthy after he returns, I think he can get something of use in return. I love Lee but, if they can get a top prospect in return, thanks for the great season Lee. Barrett and Walker could maybe get something of value in return. Even Pierre if he's having a good season could get something of value in return, around the All Star Break.

Blow up this whole gigantic mess Hendry has orchestrated and start from scratch.

I just ordered MLB Extra Innings today too and was starting to get excited about the season too. You talk about a knife to the heart.

From here on out it's Angels all way for me fellas. I have already given up on the season, which believe it or not is not as early as I gave up last year (the day Burnitz signed to be exact.) Any room left in your hearts for the White Sox? How 'bout the Brewers? Boycott the Cubs is what I'm doing. Not cuz Prior is hurt, but the way the LIED and denied and covered it up and blew smoke up OUR asses like they ALWAYS do and have always done. I'm fed up with it. I don't live in Chicago and don't have to put up with it, nor will I. I always knew there'd be a time that I would get fed up with this shitty organization and change allegiances and today is that day.

Wait 'til next year!!

by escapegoat on Mar 14, 2006 9:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

What Kind of Fan Are You?

Dear Lord even if Prior doesnt pitch this year there is no call for scrapping the team

A Top Prospect for Derek Lee???? WHY- our payroll varies from 85- 99 mill - we have money to sign one of the top players in the game and he wants to stay- We arent the A's people we can afford to sign our good players back

Get rid of everyone but Zambrano... I get really mean sometimes with Johnson and Gaius but this-- is beyond scorn- You can build around Barret, Lee, A Ram, Z, Pierre and perhaps Murton- Yes we need a power lefty, We need one if not two starters and we need may need a Shorstop- but guess what that doesnt mean we scrap our stars for PROSPECTS who by definition have the PROSPECT of being someone like the players we already have

and as far as your rooting for the LA Angels of Anaheim of California -- well i guess fair weather fan pretty much sums you up

go ahead and give up on the season
its not like we need fans like that anyways

KSUCubbie

by ksucubbie on Mar 14, 2006 10:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

We arent the A's people we can afford to sign our good players back

the question is, will they choose to? i have to think that it's either lee or ramirez, not both/and. if it IS both/and, the money from maddux and wood will be covering it and one can expect a downgrade in the pitching staff for next year, replacng maddux with hill or guzman or a cheapie free agent a la rusch.

they've already chintzed considerably in left, right and shortstop to assemble the pitching staff they have under their self-imposed salary cap.

by gaius marius on Mar 15, 2006 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

with wood and maddux

off the books thats near 20 mill- i belive A ram makes around 10 and lee hopefully will sign for near 12- Cubs could afford that (and alot more)

KSUCubbie

by ksucubbie on Mar 15, 2006 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't let the door hit you in the @$$

on your way out, frontrunner.

Luck is the residue of design. -- Branch Rickey

by Gregory on Mar 15, 2006 3:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Escapegoat = Bandwagon Bandit

You're maybe the worst Cubs "fan" ever, possibly the worst "fan" ever. You're worse than those girls right out of college that move here from Ohio and act like they have been a fan since they were born. Sorry, but there has not been one game played and the extent of Priors injury is uncertain. I bet the Cubs start playing well, you'll claim you've been with them all along.

Furthermore, your plan of getting rid of Derrick Lee and the rest of the team is just plain stupid. We would give up one of the best players in MLB for a prospect!? If you were GM, you'd get run out of Chicago faster than Bartmen. Have fun with Angels.

"I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want somebody else to go chase it.

by 10 14 23 26 on Mar 15, 2006 8:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

effects of Happy hour strikes again...

..yeah right, I wish I could dump this team that easily.

Lighten up fellas, sarcasm.

by escapegoat on Mar 15, 2006 10:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

BTW

was that comment "have fun with the Angels" supposed to be a stinging retort? I do root for the Angels as well as the Cubs and the 2 teams really shouldn't be compared.

Do you think being a Cubs fan is fun? Do you think this is fun? Huh, do ya? do ya do ya do ya?

by escapegoat on Mar 15, 2006 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like the typical

..Los Angeles Angels of Azuza fan to me, sad to say. Move on, dude. Check out the "Ed."

by Smooth Jazz Man San Diego on Mar 14, 2006 10:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Well there's the silver lining I guess...

Bandwagon fans will be jumping off in droves now. Time to buy some cheap tickets?

by FukudomeAtLarge on Mar 15, 2006 9:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

that's the best positive spin

i can pick up from this too, dude. :)

by gaius marius on Mar 15, 2006 9:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Mike Kiley, Bruce Levine or Dan McGrath?

Was it Kiley, Levine, McGrath or some other media member who did the the following:

"Carroll said the only thing that bothered him about the reaction to his report was that some media members belittled his credentials.

""It's not like I just came out of nowhere," he said. "I've worked at Baseball Prospectus for four years and have two books out. I think I have some credibility.

""To toss me out as some doof on the Internet, it really stung."" - As quoted in the Chicago Tribune

by DrCrawdad on Mar 15, 2006 10:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs