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Book Review: "Game Of Shadows"


copyright 1973, universal press syndicate

That's what Barry Bonds is. Guilty! Guilty, guilty, guilty!!

It's so clear (and not "The Clear", one of the "designer steroids" Bonds took as described in the book) that I cannot imagine anyone who's read this book -- and I highly recommend this to all of you, because Bonds is, for better or worse, going to be very much in the news in 2006, having hit his 711th HR yesterday, and also since he is now under investigation for possible perjury charges, in that he is thought to have possibly lied to the original grand jury investigating the BALCO steroid scandal.

There are a lot of subplots in this exhaustively-investigated book. First, we learn a bit about Barry Bonds and how he grew up, the pampered son of a major league player, the only black kid in his neighborhood, and how that shaped him as he was growing up -- as the most talented athlete in his high school, and also at Arizona State. There is a telling passage about his time there that foretells some of the ways in which Bonds has acted since he became a major league player:

"I never saw a teammate care about him," his coach, the late Jim Brock, told Sports Illustrated in 1990. "Part of it would his being rude, inconsiderate, and self-centered. He bragged about the money he had turned down, and he popped off about his Dad. I don't think he ever figured out what to do to get people to like him.

Brock was considered tough, demanding and distant. But even he found himself making a different set of rules for Bonds, excusing his objectionable behavior because of his tremendous talent. The coddling started from the day Bonds arrived on campus driving a new Pontiac Trans Am. When his teammates first saw the shiny black car, it was parked in the coach's parking space.

In 1984, Bonds and some teammates were caught breaking curfew, and Bonds mouthed off when the coach confronted then. Momentarily pushed past his limit, Brock blew up and kicked Bonds off the team. After he calmed down, the coach told the other players he had suspended Bonds and asked them to vote on whether to let him return; Brock was confident they would want their best player back. But Bonds was so unpopular that his teammates voted to kick him off the team for good. Before the incident spun further out of control, the coach ordered a second vote, and Bonds was reinstated.

I think you can see here the germ of some of Dusty Baker's managerial techniques -- remember, his first year as a manager was Bonds' first year as a Giant, and the ego (of Bonds, that is) couldn't have gotten smaller by then.

Bonds apparently got the idea to begin taking steroids during the 1998 HR chase between Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire; he felt he -- not they -- was the best all-around player in baseball and couldn't stand it that they were getting all the adulation. He told his then-girlfriend that "the powers that be wouldn't let Sosa win it, that they wanted the white guy to have the record."

I'm not making this stuff up, so please don't think I am being a racist here, since I am not. All of this is well-documented in the book.

There's a lot more, and the book goes into great detail about how BALCO was formed by Victor Conte. You may have seen Conte's self-serving interview on 20/20 after this all broke into the open; what I did not know is that Conte was a self-made man, a street-hustler type who was once a member of the Bay Area funk band Tower of Power. Fascinating character study.

The book names quite a few baseball names, most of which are now public, and also goes into detail on how BALCO provided steroids to various Olympic athletes, including Kelli White and Marion Jones, and how there was a race against time to "clean up" some 2004 Olympians so that the entire USA track team wouldn't be disqualified, since Olympic testing standards are much more stringent than those in baseball.

Barry Bonds is a very sad, sad case. He IS a tremendously talented baseball player -- or at least has been; you can tell that his knees are just about shot and he may be trying to hang on just long enough to hit HR #715, so he can have the most for any left-handed hitter -- and was a Hall of Fame player even BEFORE his fateful 1998 decision to do steroids. He is NOT a very nice human being, which is too bad; had be been so, he'd surely have been the most admired athlete of his generation.

Instead, he is mostly reviled, except, apparently, by Giants fans, who don't seem to care about any of this if he helps their team win. I cannot say how I'd feel if he were a Cub; I can only say I'm glad he's not, so I don't have to make that decision. It is instructive to note that when this book was released and excerpts published in Sports Illustrated, Bonds' public statements didn't deny any of the allegations in the book -- all he did was criticize the reporters for supposedly leaking sealed grand jury transcripts.

The current investigation should worry Barry Bonds. The book details a similar investigation into NBA star Chris Webber, and notes that Webber only avoided jail time

... because a key prosecution witness died from a heart attack. Webber was forced to plead guilty to contempt, pay a huge fine, and publicly admit he lied under oath.
There's also the possibility the feds will come after Bonds for tax evasion. The book details how he bought a house for his girlfriend in Arizona, paid for with cash he got for signing autographs at card shows (and further, he got her around the federal cash-reporting requirements by asking her to deposit the money in her accounts in amounts less than the $10,000 that would trigger those reports)... and didn't report this money to the IRS. Tax evasion is the reason Pete Rose spent time in federal prison.

This is an important book, and the story told within is not over. All of you should read it.

And my personal opinion is -- I absolutely hate the adulation that ESPN is currently giving to Barry Bonds; he's probably hit about 100 more HR than he would have with a "normal" career progression, and it is my hope that he never, ever hits another one.

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As to the final paragraph
There is really no way to know what his "normal" career progression would have been.  SInce the steroids or other substances that he probably took, also most likely led to his recent injuries and inability to stay healthy.

In my personal opinion - with or without steroids Barry Bonds is still one of the greatest if not the greatest hitter of all time and yes I do wish he was a little less of an a-hole.

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 27, 2006 10:19 AM CDT   0 recs

Sure there is...
... because "normally" career highs in HR -- by TWENTY-FOUR -- aren't made by 37-year-old players.

Bonds was healthy through the 2004 season, when he had 703 HR. I still believe that's about 100 more than he would have had without steroids.

Will, you've been a Bonds defender throughout many threads we've had about him. Read the book and you won't be.

by Al on Apr 27, 2006 10:23 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I refuse to give my money to these writers
I have a problem with whole steroids issue being turned into a discussion of Barry Bonds.

He is the scapegoat for the entire steroids era, which started in the late 70's.  

Another problem I have is that there is no proof that steroids actually help or hurt homerun numbers.  Climate change could have as much to do with it, who knows?

The book will not answer these questions, I am intelligent, I understand that Bonds probably used steroids or something else, though I won't officially declare that he did until the positive test comes through.

In the past I defend Bonds, because I respect his amazing baseball abilities, and people throw that out immediately just because he "allegedly" used steroids.  

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 27, 2006 10:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

"Until a positive test comes through"
That statement completely discounts the fact that the masking agents are usually a year or two ahead of the tests. Giambi and Sheffield never tested positive, and both admitted to using before the grand jury.

No one is saying that steroids make you hit more homeruns, though I personally believe that the added strength could push a warning track ball out of the park. What they do is help players recover faster from injuries and prolong their careers.

I think it's very telling that, through all of this, Bonds has never once said "I've never used steroids." What he keeps saying is "I've never had a postiive test." Kind of like what my guilty clients used to say. It was never "I didn't do it," it was always "they can't prove I did it."

And, once again, HGH hasn't even entered into this scenario yet. The only person in baseball I dislike more than Bonds is Don Fehr.

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Apr 27, 2006 10:45 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Why limit it to Fehr?
What about Bud Selig, every owner who turned a blind eye, every manager who turned a blind eye, every other player who took steroids, every player who enabled another to take steroids, every player who turned a blind eye, every reporter who failed to expose the story, every fan who overlooked the obvious?
All will be fixed in 2006

by DSZ on Apr 27, 2006 10:51 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Did I say that don't blame anyone else?
No, I didn't. But Don Fehr is the person I hate hate the most--acting like MLB players are poor, downtrodden factory workers who never get a fair shake. It sickens me. As for all the players who used steroids or HGH--I would be happy to personally make sure that the door hits their asses on the way out.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Apr 27, 2006 10:54 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

For sure
And that includes Sosa.

My respect for the game is greater than my love for anyone who cheated regardless, of whether or not they played for my favorite team.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 27, 2006 11:16 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree
it totally includes Sosa.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Apr 27, 2006 11:17 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree with the recovery part
but you are also seeing what happens as a result.  Steroids and other drugs give you the ability to play hurt, but you damage your body more in the long run.

The net effect on the amount of games Bonds could play in his career may be negligible, he may actually play less than the total amount of games he could have potentially played.

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 27, 2006 10:51 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Selig and MLB are hoping that the focus of
the media attention on Bonds takes away from their complicitness in this whole ordeal.  They failed to test for anything until 2003.  

They are hoping that if something comes out of the investigation they can erase Bonds name from the record books(which would be deplorable in my opinion) and they will bear no responsibility for anything.  Barry Bonds is being used as a scape goat, and it is made easier because he is just not very likeable.

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 27, 2006 10:55 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You realize
that when Bonds' lawyers tried to sue to stop the publication of the book, they didn't claim libel. Just that the grand jury testimony was illegally obtained.

I think it's very telling that they never claimed that anything in the book was untrue.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 27, 2006 11:31 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I have to tell you...
No trainer, no exercise.... no squats, lifts, or pushups.... no diet in the world can ever, EVER make your head muscles grow.  

This I guarantee.  

Also goes for jaw structure growing at hulk proportions (AHEM, Sammy...), but whatever.

she

by Sarah Hope on Apr 27, 2006 10:54 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Or your nose
have you seen Bond's nose in person? I have---it's bigger than my fist. It's unreal--the size of his head.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Apr 27, 2006 10:55 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Quick
someone give him the number of Jacko's plastic surgeon.
she

by Sarah Hope on Apr 27, 2006 10:56 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

HA!
Will you are so unwilling to be objective.  

Are you sure you're not just protecting your fragile pride.

Talent or no talent...Barry Bonds is a classless loser who cheated for a good part of his career, and with proof, all your arguments are tossed out the window.

Read the book man, be objective for a change.  We all listen to your defenses of the man.

Anyone can have a bad century...

by Kinky Reggae on Apr 27, 2006 12:05 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

WIth proof that steroids causes increased homeruns
If Alex Sanchez or Matt Lawton come out and break Bonds' record then I would say that might constitute some evidence that they enhance perfrormance.  
"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 27, 2006 12:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

There's a huge difference between
defending Bonds the player and Bonds the person.

I assume Bonds did steroids and I still defend Bonds the player.  I could care less about what kind of person he is.  My appreciation for him and virtually every other athlete is limited to what they do on the field.

Bonds played baseball before the steroid era and he plays during the steroid era.  In both eras, he was among if not the absolute best player in the game.  Try as we might, the question of what physical impact steroids has on the game of baseball is a question that we will not be able to answer.  That's because we're never going to be able to isolate the users from the non-users to perform such a study.

Was Bonds able to recover from the wear and tear of a 162 game schedule faster because of steroids?  Undoubtedly.  So were the perhaps hundreds of other hitters who he outslugged over the past few years.  And so were the perhaps hundreds of pitchers who he was hitting home runs off all season.

All will be fixed in 2006

by DSZ on Apr 27, 2006 10:49 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What about the home run boom in 2006?
Is it possible that steroids benefitted pitchers more than hitters as Lance Berkman suggested?  And if so, isn't it then safe to assume that Barry Bonds would have put these numbers up regardless?

The most important thing to me is that I just don't care.  Like Will said, Bonds is being used as the scapegoat and the whole perjury investigation is a witch hunt.  They are never going to be able to prove the guy lied.  Why they are even trying is just to undermine the home run totals he has amassed.  

Leave the guy alone.  As far as i'm concerned these books are nothing more than trash and should be used to start fires.  I find it interesting that the leak of the grand jury testimony hasn't been sought, but the person in question is being investigated for possible perjury charges.  What kind of fucked up system is this?

by Maddog on Apr 27, 2006 6:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And one more thing...
...telling me I should read this is like telling me I should read yesterday's weather.  No thanks, Al.  I already know the guy used steroids.  I don't need a book to explain this to me.  I sure as hell am not going to give $20 to these assholes who are telling me something I already know.  I'd sooner read yesterday's weather before I bought this book.  At least that won't have a hefty price to come with it full of speculation with the only intent is to smear one steroid abuser in this game.  No thanks, Al.  I'm very disappointed you would suggest this book to anyone on this site.  That is, unless, of course, you are making money doing so.  I know that you've lost one reader as a result of this.  I can only hope that others find this post as insulting as I do.  

by Maddog on Apr 27, 2006 6:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No more Maddog?
I'll believe it when I see it. Dude, you need to grow up. Cursing and threats are immature. If you don't care to read the book then don't. But posting and ranting like a nut is not going to help anyone listen to your point of view.

by LT on Apr 27, 2006 8:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

This is one of those comments
that should have been stated in an email rather than in the forum. Completely inappropriate and overly hostile, regardless of your opinion on Bonds' guilt or how the investigation is being handled.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 27, 2006 9:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think
that's arguable. You're right. Look at his stats before 1998 - from 1986 to 1998, he had 411 homers and 1,200 RBIs.

In 1998 alone, he hit .303, with 37 homers and 122 RBIs. At that rate, of course he would be considered one of the greatest hitters of all time.

But I certainly believe that his previous talent alone doesn't absolve him from the consequences of his actions.

If an Olympic track star tested positive for steroids, the committee wouldn't even think of saying, "Well...it doesn't matter. He/she probably would have won that race anyways." And I don't see any reason why we should hold Bonds (or anyone else) to a different standard.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 27, 2006 11:28 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That's the problem, though everyone else
is being held to a lesser standard.  How many books have come out about Mark Mcgwire's performance enhancing drug use?  Or anyone else?  Jose Canseco is not included since he co-authored his book.

Bonds is being unfairly hoisted to the top of the scandal when he is just a symptom of the problem that resulted from MLB not having any official steroid testing policy prior to 2003.

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 27, 2006 11:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree
that the investigation is being overwhelmingly focused on Bonds, and I agree that it's not right to go after just Bonds. But I also don't think the fact that he's being held to a higher standard should mean anything. It's unfair, yes. But that accusation alone is so transparent that there's no way it should be used to keep him from being investigated.

This "victim" tag on Bonds has got to stop. He's the one who decided to take steroids. He's the one who decided that his already-hall-of-fame-caliber stats just weren't good enough. Regardless of MLB's testing policy, steroids were still against the law. And now we're supposed to feel bad for him because he's about to break 714 and people are starting to publicly wonder how on earth he got that way?

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 27, 2006 11:39 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So you are saying it is all fine and well
if they throw Bonds and his records out of baseball.  And that's that problem solved, MLB bears no responsibility for any of this, nor do any of the hundreds of players that took steroids illegally going back to the 70's.

I know Bonds is an a-hole, but he should not be the focus of the investigation. There is really no point in investigating anymore, they are not going to uncover anything nor shed any light anything new.  People will believe what they want to believe.

MLB has an adequate drug policy now and that is the best thing that could come out of this.  Scapegoating Bonds may make some of the Bond's haters feel better, but it doesn't solve anything.

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 27, 2006 11:47 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No,
you're putting words in my mouth. That's not at all what I said, and you know it.

What I'm saying is that this "unfair treatment" by the league does not by one iota diminish the fact that he STILL cheated to get to where he is today! You're trying to force blame on Major League Baseball, when it was BONDS who decided that he was going to take steroids.

I think they should go after EVERYONE who's suspected to have taken steroids - Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Sheffield, and anyone else they can get their hands on. I don't think baseball has correctly handled the issue over the years, but again, that does NOT take anything away from the fact that Bonds did what he did. And we should not give him a free pass just because "it's not fair."

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 27, 2006 11:54 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And the hell Canseco is not included
he just had the smarts to admit it and make it profitable.  Bonds OTOH, chose to deny (like an a___hole) and then give reality tv a try.

He's a classless bum and people defending him is humerous.

Anyone can have a bad century...

by Kinky Reggae on Apr 27, 2006 12:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Your spelling
is humorous
"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 27, 2006 12:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Just playing
"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 27, 2006 12:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Look Will
this has gone on way too long.  All any of us want you to do is buy, borrow, check out thebook and read it to see what it has to say.

It just seems like your refusal to read it (for reasons that appear to be bogus) is a claim that you are unwilling to see if what it has to say is valid or not.  

If you read it and come back and say the same thingm then you are entitled to that but if you tell me lobster tastes like crap and then refuse to try it, I will call BS on you.

Anyone can have a bad century...

by Kinky Reggae on Apr 27, 2006 12:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Az, have you read it?
Also if you want to buy it for me or start a collection to buy it for me I will read it.

A book that would be more relevant to prove the point to me, would be one that shows statistically the impact of steroids on a baseball player.  Also one that shows statistically that Barry Bonds actually had a leg up on the competition, since steroids and other PEDs were available and used by many other baseball players since the 70's.  So if you find a book that shows first that there is an actual link between steroids and performance and one that shows that Bonds benefitted moreso than anyone else did in the league, I will stop defending Bonds and admit that Bonds should be stricken from the records.

You catch my drift.

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 27, 2006 1:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Re
Yeah, I catch your drift.

The Doonesbury comic that opens this thread is ironic to me because you remind me of a teacher I had in high school.  During the Watergate stories in the Washington Post, she and I got into an argument about whether Nixon was guilty.  She finally couldn't take the possibility that her idol was actually the lying, cheating, guilty SOB that everyone had been saying he was since his days as a Congressman and started crying.

This isn't just about Bonds taking steriods.  This is about a member of the asshole HOF who has less self-awareness than Pete Rose getting his well-deserved comeupance.

Guys like Matt Lawton take steriods because they're barely hanging on to an MLB job.  Barry Bonds took steriods because being the best player wasn't good enough for his massive ego; he needed to have the spotlight shining down on him and was miffed it wasn't.

Karma's a bitch.  Why you want to share his ride is a question well worth asking yourself.

by Jed Taylor on Apr 27, 2006 3:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Seems like you are a little off topic
I don't think my defense qualifies me for the same come uppance that Mr. Bonds may have.  

He is not the best person in the world, but this is not Watergate either.  If we were to use the Watergate analogy, Bonds is not Nixon, he might be a low level staffer, a symptom of the problem not the actual problem itself.

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 27, 2006 4:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think
he would be G. Gordon Liddy.

;)

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Apr 27, 2006 4:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well
in order to write such a book, one would have to know definitively who has used and who has not. And since none of these guys seem to be too open about it, I would think that such proof is, at least for the present, completely impossible.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Apr 27, 2006 4:05 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

almost done with it.
I would be happy to share but I get the feeling you aren't truly interested. if you read below, I said in no way did he benefit more than others,all should be held accountable ...but why should his blatent use be shrugged off because people like you think he is so great? if he cheated,he does not deserve your praise, talented or not.
Anyone can have a bad century...

by Kinky Reggae on Apr 27, 2006 4:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Are you kidding me?
You actually believe there is no evidence linking steroids to improved baseball performance?

Every medical study on steroids has shown that they increase muscle mass and strength (including "fast twitch" muscle tissue), improve recovery time for workouts, allow quicker healing from injuries, and thus make you stronger and allow you to work out more and longer and with a decreased risk of injury.

So being stronger and able to hit a baseball farther (thus more often out of the park), being able to swing a bat faster (thanks to increased fast twitch muscle speed), avoid injury, and in general become a superhuman sized freak at a point in your career when your abilities should by all rights be deteriorating (or at least not improving exponentially) has nothing to do with baseball performance?

Look, Bonds cheated.  Don't give me the "it wasn't outlawed in baseball" argument - it was illegal in the real world, period. He deserves scrutiny and criticism for what HE chose to do, especially since he's now near to passing some of baseball's most cherished records.  Its ludicrous to argue that there is no link between steroids and increased performance - if there wasn't, why would ANY player take them?

by Chadnudj on Apr 27, 2006 4:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I eat Broccoli
because it is believed to reduce my risk of getting cancer later on in life.  It is not proven that it has this effect, but I believe it will so I eat it.
"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 27, 2006 6:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

This isn't even
making sense anymore. Broccoli isn't proven to reduce cancer risk (and what are you trying to prove by that analogy, anyways?) But steroids are proven to increase muscle mass and reduce injury recovery time.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 27, 2006 6:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Again I understand what steroids do,
yet they are not proven to have any impact on a baseball players career. These players who take them only believe they will improve their career, as I believe broccoli will make me healthier.
"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 28, 2006 7:58 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If I injected heroin
because I believed it would give me some sort of euphoric rush, wouldn't I be breaking the law, regardless of whether or not this drug managed to take effect in my body?

That's like saying someone shouldn't be charged with attempted murder, because after all, they didn't succeed in what they originally set out to do.

How can you possibly agree with the fact that steroids increase muscle mass and decrease recovery time, but then turn around and say that increased muscle mass isn't proven to help athletes?

Please, for Pete's sake, just read the book!

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 28, 2006 9:37 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

the book isn't going to answer
those questions -- it's going to present one view.

there are two perspectives here -- one of society, the other of baseball.

again, i don't think anyone would disagree that steroids have physical effects.

what the net result of those effects are, however, in any analysis that isn't uselessly simplistic, cannot be known. they vary depending on the type, the usage, the activity of the player. whether and how they help or hinder isn't a black-or-white issue -- there's a vast spectrum of possible results. and there's no way to know where bonds falls on that spectrum.

from a purely sporting perspective, there's little to be done. virtually everyone in the game cheats, some more than others. baseball, it has to be remembered, is an amoral game and had no rules against anything he did.

so if he's to be punished -- and i agree, there's room for it and it may well happen -- let it be by society through law, not baseball. what he may have done is clearly illegal.

by gaius marius on Apr 28, 2006 10:03 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

agree with you entirely gaius
"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 28, 2006 10:20 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That's fine
But let's not give him a free pass because of his talent, because "everybody cheats", because "it's baseball's fault", because "we don't even know how much this helps your game." When you give players (be they specific players or the whole lot) an excuse to cheat, that's just enabling the problem to continue.

From a moral standpoint, that is. Do you agree this is a problem throughout baseball, and you would rather see baseball played without cheating? (I can't imagine why you wouldn't.) Fine. Let's fix it, by whatever means necessary. We have to expose one of the most blatant users? Fine. We have to expose users that we never suspected? Fine. Just fix it.  

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 28, 2006 10:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think you are missing the point,
cheating has been in the game forever and will always be.  You do not seem to exist in the real world but in your world where trashing Barry Bonds will somehow eliminate cheating from the game of baseball.
"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 28, 2006 10:44 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If you've listened to even a word I've said
You'd know that I'm not for trashing only Barry Bonds. I'm for a full on investigation against everyone. (Scroll up, down, wherever else I said that.)

You're twisting my words to fit your own point of view so that you can claim yourself and Bonds as martyrs, and I don't appreciate it.

I understand that cheating has always been a part of the game - but you can't tell me honestly that that means we should allow it to continue unchecked. You're a baseball fan, aren't you? You'd like to see games played fairly? I know I sure would.

Listen to someone else's opinion for a change instead of just attacking people's concepts of "the real world."

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 28, 2006 10:58 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Again,
I'm done talking about this. You can believe what you want to believe. It's obvious you're so entrenched in your own opinion that you refuse to listen to anything that anyone else has to say. That's it.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 28, 2006 11:00 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You should read your own comments and
heed some of their advice as well.

I never said cheating should be unregulated, but it will always be a part of the game and there is really nothing we can do about it now.

From spitballs to corked bats, to stealing signs and cutting the corner on bases, baseball players always look for an edge.  

The only good that is going to come of this investigation has already happened.  Baseball now has a strict policy on steroids.  Going back in time isn't going to solve any problems nor save any records.

"You know what God told the cubs. Don't do anything until I get back!" Pete Rose

by Will71081 on Apr 28, 2006 11:09 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, I'll be sure to do that
Just one last thing though - I think that looking back at what happened will aid policy and policy implementation for the future. I agree that we can't go back and strike records, etc, etc - that just doesn't make sense - but ignoring that anything in the past ever happened will only make it worse.

I keep saying I'm done talking about this...my self control sucks.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 28, 2006 11:22 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

to fix it
i think you'd have to fix society. this isn't a problem with just baseball; it's a problem with western civilization, of which baseball is a mirror.

there's no set of administrative laws that's going to suppress this, just as no effort of government will ever stamp out drug use or pornography in the broader population. there's simply too much incentive to try and too mush technology enabling -- and too little responsibility to conform to the social compact in an age of rampant individualism.

i daresay that there is no fix short of real and widespread social disaster -- things we're only now seeing the beginnings of in the last century of the western experience. only then, i suspect, will people begin to appreciate how being bound to a limiting compact not of their choosing can preserve them from themselves and be the guarantor of pragmatic liberty.

by gaius marius on Apr 28, 2006 11:09 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Let's not get out of control Gaius
western civilization has a plethera of problems, this issue CAN be looked at on a smaller stage.  Baseball is a much smaller venue for regulation.  The facts are that Bonds (and many others) have cheated during this era when there are ways to prove they did.  Still Bonds never tested positive yet there remains substantial eveidence that he cheated. Lawton, and Co. did pay a penalty for their use (aka cheating) and so should Bonds if there is undeniable proof.  Since Bonds defenders are so determined to argue details of the rules (ie. roids not illegal in baseball, etc.) let's do just that.  The policy, as far as I know, does not specify that the only justifiable proof has to be a positive test...therefore, the testimonies that are in question, have to be considered as evidence if deemed valid.

You, unlike many of us, look to instill change in the greater society as a whole.  Your right.  I look at the smaller picture.  There are in fact ways to eliminate cheating in this day and age AND , the means to punish past cheating if it is discovered.  At the very least, the records that have been set, ought to stand alone if they appear to have been set free of cheating.  And I am not talking about coffee, that is absurd.  Apples and oranges...heck apples and broccoli man...not even in the same class as one another.

Anyone can have a bad century...

by Kinky Reggae on Apr 28, 2006 12:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well said, Al
I picked it up last week but haven't read it yet. I get so angry every time I think about Bonds breaking Aaron's record that I just haven't had the heart to get into it yet. And I agree, ESPN's constant glorification of Bonds, as if cheating on his part has never been brought into question, is really sickening. That and their round-the-clock coverage of "Damon returns to Boston" that been going for over a week now.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on Apr 27, 2006 10:26 AM CDT   0 recs

May 1-3
is when the Yankees go to Fenway. He's not jumping ship again.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 27, 2006 11:18 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I know
I was just joking.  It's so over-covered it makes me sick!  
she

by Sarah Hope on Apr 27, 2006 12:29 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

There I go again
Didn't I totally miss the sarcasm the other day, too? My bad.
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 27, 2006 12:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh no worries!
Tone is so hard to convey via type.  Darn this black and white communication!! :) haha
she

by Sarah Hope on Apr 27, 2006 12:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The NFL Draft is coming up soon too...
That's the rumor, at least... I haven't seen or heard it mentioned on ESPN lately.
"A hot dog at the ball park is better than steak at the Ritz." -- Humphrey Bogart

by hokie316 on Apr 27, 2006 12:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Haha
Are you kidding?!? I hadn't heard!!
--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 27, 2006 12:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

ESPN
Number one on their Top Plays today was his 711th homerun. I think it's purely hypocritical how much attention they gave to the allegations when the book first came out; now that he's getting closer and closer to the record, they seem to have forgotten the distinct probability that he CHEATED to get there.

There's a reason the term "sportsmanship" has the word "sport" in it. Cheating is NOT sportsmanship, and anyone who cheats should no longer fit the definition of "sportsman."

But I digress. ESPN also needs to quit with their round-the-clock draft coverage. I'm done now.  

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on Apr 27, 2006 11:12 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

good ol' ESPN
The East-coast Sports and Poker Network. Even their website has been lacking lately, half of everything there is behind the "insider" firewall.
The poster formerly known as CherryPoppinCubbies

by jrm78 on Apr 27, 2006 11:30 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

ESPN are total Bonds whores
I find it funny when one of their commentators
questions Bud's investigation re Mitchell etc as
not being sufficiently independent. I agree but
ESPN itself is worse. They  are wrapped up with
Barry and his silly "reality"  show financially

The thing that annoys me  the most is that
Giants games now take precedence over
ALL over  NL scores and are now listed OUT
of sequence ( i.e time) EVEN WHEN BARRY IS NOT
PLAYING. How stupid is this ?

by jessica on Apr 27, 2006 1:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I always
thought it was "Bond girls" ... ?

:)

she

by Sarah Hope on Apr 27, 2006 2:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

This is so difficult.....
.....I don't let him off the hook for perjury, but the whole 'steroids issue' goes so far beyond him that all of baseball is culpable.

You might be glad that Bond's isn't on the Cubs, but we'll always have to deal with the Sosa legacy, which for some reason methinks still isn't quite over yet: no one disappears like he did and not come back (to say something on the record) at some point.

I'm going to grab this book Al, and I share your distaste of Bonds, but regarding steroids, I believe making him the poster child lets others (namely the commissioner's office) off the hook who are as culpable, if not more so for allwoing it to reach the proportions it did.

Besides the obvious - Go Irish.

by PopeFlick on Apr 27, 2006 10:55 AM CDT   0 recs

Saturday Tickets??
ANYONE HAVE TICKETS TO SATURDAY'S GAME???  

by BillHoldenFan on Apr 27, 2006 11:40 AM CDT   0 recs