Jones vs. Pierre

by Will23 on May 17, 2006 12:21 PM CDT Comment 29 comments

I still don't understand why Jones gets so much criticism directed at him while Pierre gets little to none. JJ has 30 points on JP in both avg and obp, yet he is the target of fan discontent (literally and figuratively) both here and at Wrigley.

Okay, so maybe he has made a few inexcusable base running errors. But at least he was on base. How many games have the Cubs lost because Pierre has gone 0-for or 1-for? Here is the team record for JJ/JP when each get on base 1 or fewer times a game (Hits/Walks)

Pierre - 7-17 (9-5 when on base at least twice)
Jones - 11-13 (3-5 when on base at least twice)

So it is fair to say that the Cubs lose fewer games when Jones has a bad night at the plate than Pierre. Granted, Jones has played in 6 fewer games but the trend is still visible. This also shows that Pierre is indeed the catalyst for the offense (if being the lead off man wasn't enough already).

All I am trying to say is to treat both of these guys the same. They are both offseason acqusitions and should be held to the same standards of play. If you are going to boo JJ, then boo harder for the guy to his left who is making nearly $2 million more and producing less.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Simple...

3 years/ 18 million.

by timeforachange on May 17, 2006 12:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Pierre..

.."earns" more than that. Did you not read the diary?

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on May 17, 2006 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or..

..did you mean because Jones 3yrs & Pierre just 1? My bad.

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on May 17, 2006 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Three years was my point....

Plus Pierre was on most of our "hot list". I am not sure if anyone was excited about JJ.

by timeforachange on May 17, 2006 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Isn't OBVIOUS???

He gets attacked because he is Black. um wait that
doesn't work . Never mind

J. Jackson

( well it worked for Barry)

by jessica on May 17, 2006 12:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Mishmash...

Up with hope...Down with dope...

by timeforachange on May 17, 2006 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

to me...

it's the strikeout totals that separate these two players. Jones has whiffed 22 times in 106 at-bats (20.7% of his at-bats); Pierre has whiffed 14 times in 156 at-bats (8.9% of his at-bats).

If Jones would quit striking out so much and start throwing to the cut-off man instead of earthworms, I'll cut him some slack.

One day, the dream will come true.

by brianp88 on May 17, 2006 1:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough..

..some of JJ's fielding/baserunning fundamentals are not as sound as they should be. But the strikeouts are still fewer than Burnitz (24.2% w/Pitt) and certainly are less than if that-other-right-fielder-we-had-before was still around.

And keep in mind also that JJ has walked only 3 fewer times than his leadoff buddy in center.

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on May 17, 2006 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are correct, sir

My point is that fans tend to boo the strikeouts more than the ground-outs or fly-outs. Burnitz is being booed in Pittsburgh and deservedly so. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06137/690737-63.stm

Though Jones strike outs haven't reached Burnitz proportions, they are still high. If JJ can just make contact a bit more, fans might lay off him. Improving the throwing might help too.

One day, the dream will come true.

by brianp88 on May 17, 2006 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Scary number re: Burnitz

Despite the fact that his numbers are poor (.613 OPS to Jones' .773), his 23 RBI would lead the Cubs.

by Al on May 17, 2006 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yep

Burnitz is hitting .44 points higher than his average with RISP. He is an anemic .169 hitter with the bases empty. That explains that.

One day, the dream will come true.

by brianp88 on May 17, 2006 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very true..

..in Jones' case, his strikeouts will more likely end a scoring oppertunity. I agree that is fair game for boos.

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on May 17, 2006 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do you mean ...

... by the people who frequent this board, or by the media in general?

If it's the former, I can speculate why: there are a lot of people on this board, the proprietor included, who regarded Pierre as the answer to our leadoff problems, and that he would be a huge upgrade over Corey Patterson (which is a pretty low bar to go over).

Because people liked the Pierre pickup, they're reluctant to criticize his poor performance, because they may feel it's also a criticism of their own projection capabilities.

Jones, on the other hand, was roundly recognized here as a bad pickup, so people feel a lot freer in piling on him.

I was one of the few skeptics about the pickup, and I took a lot of heat for it in this thread: http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/story/2006/1/16/153157/533. Now we're all seeing what I was talking about: when Juan Pierre's batting average goes into the toilet, his value drops considerably. His only real attribute is speed, because he has no power, no patience and below average fielding skills. Pierre has to hit .330 to be a good leadoff guy. Those guys are super hard to find. And he's not one.

I don't think he'll end the season at his current .231/.273/.295, but now I'm starting to wonder whether he'll even make my projection of .288/.318/.362, who was one of the lowest projections on the above referenced thread.

Chuck

by chasfh on May 17, 2006 1:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Pierre's lifetime numbers...

... coming into this year were .305/.355/.375. If he could even come close to that, he'd be an effective player.

by Al on May 17, 2006 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I Don't Agree With That ...

... in the least. .355 is not a good OBP for a leadoff man -- if he had that, he would be 14th of 22 in the majors among qualifiers this year. And a .375 SLG would make him 17th out of 22nd. In both cases, he would be well below average.

The only thing that's his saving grace is the 12 of 13 in the SB department -- but stolen bases don't provide enough run creation benefit to make a player with a .305/.355/.375 line become a positive contributor.

by chasfh on May 17, 2006 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yabbut...

.... .355 would be over 100 points better than what he's doing NOW.

by Al on May 17, 2006 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who was..

..the last Cub lead off man to even get close to .355? Lofton had a .381 obp in the 56 games he played in 2003. But before that..Lance Johnson?

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on May 17, 2006 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

... Eric Young led off most of 2001, had a .333 OBP. That's not great, but it's better than the Cubs have had since, except for the half-season of Lofton.

Johnson did a .335 OBP in 1998. So did Jerome Walton in 1989.

by Al on May 17, 2006 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bob Dernier

was .356 in 1984. I'll see if I can find someone more recent...

One day, the dream will come true.

by brianp88 on May 17, 2006 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jerome Walton

was .350 in 1990. His slugging percentage was actually lower than his on-base percentage that year (.329). How often does that happen?

One day, the dream will come true.

by brianp88 on May 17, 2006 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh I Must Have Misunderstood

I thought you were saying that would make him an effective player. Because I think we can both agree that it wouldn't, right?

by chasfh on May 17, 2006 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely..

..people on this board. And some fans at Wrigley, noted by the boo birds and objects thrown at him. I think you are spot on about the reluctance to criticise him. He is just flat out terrible at Wrigley (.181/.224).

I think his numbers will improve somewhat also, but not anywhere near close to elite or even above average.

Man alive, Kenny Lofton is hitting .277 and has almost as many SB as Pierre. I think JP deserves some vocal motivation from fans at the park.

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on May 17, 2006 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry everyone,

but in my opinion both players are a bust right now. Especially Pierre. I was very excited about getting him in the offseason. My excitement has drastically dwindled.

"The only way to prove that you're a good sport is to lose." - Ernie Banks

by madog93 on May 17, 2006 2:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

While I didn't think...

... Pierre was a superstar, neither did I think he'd be this bad.

One of two things has happened: either he's simply off to a horrible start because he's pressing, or he has suffered a real decline in abilities.

A month from now, we'll know better.

by Al on May 17, 2006 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

is it possible

We know that Pierre is perhaps one of the hardest working players in baseball. I really respect that in him, but do you think it is possible that he works to hard before a game and is worn out by game time? I know this is pure speculation, just wanted to know what others thoughts are on this subject.

"The only way to prove that you're a good sport is to lose." - Ernie Banks

by madog93 on May 17, 2006 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It may not be...

... "works too hard", but the work ethic may make him press even harder than most players do when they start to slump, and that magnifies the slump.

by Al on May 17, 2006 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's a curse

put on by Patterson when he was traded. He wanted the fans to miss him when he was gone.

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on May 17, 2006 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Say what you will about Monsiour Pierre

and his lousy season stats but please give him credit for denying a certain large-headed fellow on the West Coast the opportunity to tie the home run mark of one of the most beloved American sports icons of all time.

by JFCubFan on May 17, 2006 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re

I strongly supported the acquistion of JP. So far, he's shown that when he gets on, he's as disruptive as adverstised. The problem is he just isn't doing the job of getting on base.

He needs to turn it around, and do so in a hurry, mostly because it will raise his value in July when the Cubs are sellers. He's not the future of the team in CF.

Visit The Digital Gazette

by Jed Taylor on May 17, 2006 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs