Corey Patterson...

by nick3308 on May 24, 2006 7:51 PM CDT

I think earlier in the year actually before we let Patterson go to the Orioles..that I made a pretty bold prediction on what Corey Patterson would do this year. which was this

ok now that hes gonna be leaving
patterson will hit .286 with 26 HR and 89 RBI with an OBP of .342

ok im not saying hes going to hit 26 HR along with 89 rbi's this year..but he is doing a hell of a lot better than he was with the cubs..his statline as of now looks like this

.306 5 HR 18 RBI 23 R 15 SB .358 OBP

it is..my opinion..that this is just the cubs luck..now patterson is no lou brock..but we sure cyould use that kind of production right now

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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He would still be failing here

Due to the perfect storm of bad coaching and fan booing that kills most young players here.

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 24, 2006 8:06 PM CDT reply actions

very bad coaching at most levels

by whatever39 on May 24, 2006 8:13 PM CDT up reply actions

Yep

Not a coincidence. Patterson had absolutely no clue last year. I know it's early, but strange how he seems to have instantly figured it out. Amazing what happens when you don't have to listen to Clines or Sarge anymore. Or have someone pushing a no walk attitude.

by BringBackRyno on May 24, 2006 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions

Fan booing?

don't see how that's relevant here, I still own a Number 20 jersey, and I'm glad he's doing well. Watching him struggle last year killed me(and all of cubdom). Personally I blame Baker as I do for everything.

To Bleed or Not to Bleed?

by TheRamZamDLEE on May 24, 2006 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions

You don't see how it's relevant?

It's pretty simple. Fans have high expectations...young player struggles...young player plays defensively and tentatively to avoid mistakes...player fails. Call me crazy, but I don't think that it is mere coincidence that Corey's level of play dropped considerably when he was regularly booed.

What exactly is your point, anyway? How ISN'T that relevant?

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 24, 2006 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions

This also

Happens on every other team in the Bigs, don't like the booing step up your game. The Yankees Fan is notorious for booing and they have 26 World Championships coincidence? I think not! =Lame excuse

To Bleed or Not to Bleed?

by TheRamZamDLEE on May 24, 2006 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions

You're missing the point

I'm not making excuses for Patterson, I'm merely pointing out a fact. If you read what I originally said, I equated a great deal of his problems to bad coaching (especially of young guys). All I'm saying is that the booing of Patterson further hurt any chance of him performing well in Chicago. I'm not saying that * I * think this is a good excuse (he's a grown man, and he should have been able to work through it), but according to what I observed, it definitely made a difference. I don't see how you can argue that fact, his numbers were inversely proportional to the amount of booing he received. Thats why it is relevant.

And the Yankees are a bad example, because they are a team made of veterans. Patterson was a young player, trying to make a good impression on his first few runs through the big leagues, and didn't have the mental strength to block out the booing and play to his potential. If you think players in general (sure, there are some exceptions) play better in front of hostile crowds, then how do you explain why teams almost always play better at home? I thought this was obvious, but I guess I was wrong.

I wasn't saying that was the only reason, but it was A reason.

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 24, 2006 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions

No I'm not

I understand what you said just fine. He played even worse as the booing increased. I agree with that as well and should have said that before, I also said I was(still am) a fan of his and I still own his jersey.

I just don't agree with people when they say it's not good to boo. Cub Fans are as loyal as they come (hence the name of this site and the amount of standing ovations that have occurred at Wrigley seemingly every game) most of us loved Corey but he was "Lost" at the plate last year to say the least, and when your that frustrated and you care that much you vent. I don't see it as Hostility as I do tough love.

I said used the Yankees as an Example because they win so much. Bad example. Point Taken. I would however point to their second basemen, Robinson Cano who has more than held his own since he came up in 05'

To Bleed or Not to Bleed?

by TheRamZamDLEE on May 25, 2006 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions

Then I think we agree...

and didn't realize it. I don't think booing is bad at all, I was merely stating a fact. You are right, though, that fans boo in numerous cities (although if you ask Jacque Jones, apparently not in Minnesota). Aside from Patterson, I feel that numerous Cubs of the past few years have been highly boo-worthy. I am more adverse to booing young, and new guys though, just for the fact that they might not perform immediately, and when you preemptively boo them, they may never perform. But its not "wrong".

To summarize:
Booing: good
Patterson on the Cubs: bad
Cubs: highly boo-worthy
Dusty Baker: Booooooo!

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 25, 2006 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions

Nice Summary

And btw is your handle cosmicCharlie a reference to a Grateful Dead song, and your reply to nutsackylacky was priceless and right on the money about the Sox fans inferiority complex. I root for the Sox to Loose that's it. Go away Trolls quit polluting our Blogs.

To Bleed or Not to Bleed?

by TheRamZamDLEE on May 25, 2006 12:54 AM CDT up reply actions

CosmicCharlie

Is indeed a Grateful dead reference, from the song of the same name off of Aoxomoxoa.

And I hate to generalize about Sox fans, but it just seems like a large contingent of their ilk just can't let the fact that the Sox are now good and the Cubs are bad be enough. Its really incredibly juvenile. Who cares...what the Cubs do has absolutely nothing to do with the White Sox. And the so called class-war between whitesox and Cubs fans doesn't exist. They did a study on WSCR, and it turns out that the average White Sox fan and Cubs fan make around the same salary (I think they actually found that the Sox fans make slightly more, but the difference was negligible). This might not have always been the case, but it is now, and its not like being "blue collar" makes you a holier person anyway. I'm so tired of hearing that argument. Nietzsche calls that "slave morality". I call it annoying.

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 25, 2006 2:19 AM CDT up reply actions

Nice! Big Dead fan here

I must admit I have alot of Sox fans as friends and about half of them the loud obnoxious type. Like one that wears a shirt that says Wrigley Field "Chicago's Biggest Gay Bar". I had to sit my buddy down and remind him of his age and the fact his team just won it all! Quit worrying about the cubs and grow up. I should also point out the good natured ones are the ones making more than me so, the score survey holds true on my end.

To Bleed or Not to Bleed?

by TheRamZamDLEE on May 25, 2006 3:03 AM CDT up reply actions

WOW...

Chicago's biggest gay bar, huh. I bet you could wear that shirt at a black tie affair. A homophobic black tie affair, that is.

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 25, 2006 5:49 AM CDT up reply actions

Or not you, rather, but your friend

Seriously though, you should tell him to continue wearing that shirt, because it makes Cubs fans appear more sophisticated by comparison (not that we need any help). And see, that just proves the difference between the fanbase (again, not to overgeneralize, my Dad is a Sox fan, and he's one of the smartest and classiest people I know), but I haven't seen any Cubs fans wear shirts that mark US Cellular a giant gay bar (Not that there's anything wrong with that!)...(then again, US Cellular is probably a little too trashy, with the wrong aesthetic apppeal for Chicago's gay baseball fans, as even I, with zero decorating sense whatsoever, find that field tacky).

Glad to see another Deadhead on this board. I can honestly say that this Cubs team has me "Goin' down the road feelin' bad"

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 25, 2006 6:17 AM CDT up reply actions

Your point's invalid, Charlie

Patterson started to hear boos long after his deficiencies at the plate had been established by hundreds of major league ABs. That horse left the barn long before the boo-birds showed up.

Luck is the residue of design. -- Branch Rickey

by Gregory on May 25, 2006 2:38 AM CDT up reply actions

How many times do I have to explain this...

That doesn't make my point "invalid". The booing was just one of the many reasons why Patterson's career in Chicago suffered. Honestly, did you read what was written above at all. I never said that Corey was Babe Ruth reincarnate until he started hearing booing. I said that due to various factors like bad coaching, and his own deficiencies of inexperience (almost all young guys have problems, and no two have the exact same problems) and when he started struggling, his problems were exacerbated by constant booing, because he doesn't really strike me as having the strongest mental toughness. That doesn't mean that the booing was the only problem, or even the bigggest problem. And that doesn't mean that booing is wrong, or right. All I was stating was a fact, as I saw it. If you're going to disagree with me, it helps to actually read my points, because as of right now, it is you, sir, who's point is "invalid" (Perfect time for a gloveslap).

And put yourself in Corey's position. Lets say you started a new job and were struggling. Lets also say that you aren't exactly a pillar of mental toughness (hypothetically, of course). Now imagine that you have several bosses stopping by your cubical numerous times each day to yell at you, and generally give you negative feedback. Does your work performance improve? I think not. As I said above, if booing didn't at least partially affect players' performances, then teams wouldn't be SO much better at home than on the road.

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 25, 2006 3:12 AM CDT up reply actions

EDIT:

Not just booing, but the crowd reception in general affects performance.

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 25, 2006 3:16 AM CDT up reply actions

Baloney

If Patterson's lack of mental toughness was a preexisting phenomenon -- and I'm pretty sure that we can both agree that it was, as it's difficult to imagine someone undergoing complete psychological collapse while wearing a major league uniform. Unless you're talking about a very extreme case like Donnie Moore's, and nothing Patterson ever did got him the same sort of horrifying vilification (read: death threats) that plagued Moore right up until he committed suicide.

I didn't say that you were laying all the blame on the boo-birds. But the fact that you're even bringing it up at all makes it appear as though you're exonerating Patterson to a degree and laying the blame for his failure at the feet of Cubs fans. Sorry, I don't buy that at all.

Luck is the residue of design. -- Branch Rickey

by Gregory on May 25, 2006 6:59 AM CDT up reply actions

Salami...

Again, you miss the point. I'm not laying the blame on the fans, or exonerating Patterson. If you read my text above, at no point did I insinuate that fans were somehow wrong for booing him. I said booing is neither right nor wrong. There is a difference between stating a fact, and making an excuse. Take this at face value: all I'm saying is that Patterson was not mentally tough, fans here are booing more, and Patterson's already shaky performance at that critical point in his development further declined. If I wasn't clear before, let me be clear now: that is an indictment on Patterson, not the fans. He's not mentally tough enough to play in a major market.

That being said...you're kidding yourself if you think fans booing young players during their development does anything other than hurt them. Sure, its your right....big deal. Although I do agree players should be mentally tough, a lot of them aren't (especially young guys that are new to the bigs) and you can't change that. I'm all for booing veterans, but I'm far more tentative about booing young guys. The truth is, if Patterson could shorten his swing, and lay off the high fastball and the breaking ball away from lefties he has all the tools to be successful. Its hard for any player to work out those early career problems with the ire of 3.1 million people. Whether you like it or not, thats the way it is.

I don't even know why I'm even arguing this with you because its such a moot point. Patterson sucked here, he's gone and probably won't be back, he lacked the mental strength to play here, we still own his brother. It seems like you're reading too much into my posts, and at this point are merely arguing semantics over how you interpret my words have laid blame.

Actually, the more I read your post, the more you really annoy me. You basically took all of those points out of your ass, because I never exonerated Patterson, or blamed the fans for his failure. Then you concluded your statement like you'd somehow caught me on a major failure of logic with "I don't buy that". Well, neither do I, or anyone for that matter.
You said:
"But the fact that you're even bringing it up at all makes it appear as though you're exonerating Patterson to a degree and laying the blame for his failure at the feet of Cubs fans"

Directly above that, I said:
"That doesn't mean that the booing was the only problem, or even the bigggest problem. And that doesn't mean that booing is wrong, or right."

As ballplayers say, "it is what it is"

the key is that I never said booing was wrong. I'd say I'll type this slowly so you can understand it better, but it will show up at the same rate for you, so I'll just say it...booing isn't wrong, its not the fans' fault that Patterson sucked here, I was only stating a FACT that his performance further dropped off when he was booed. THATS NOT THE ONLY REASON HE WAS BAD. JUST ONE REASON. I still can't believe I'm arguing this point with you, quit trying to overanalyze my posts.

to make it simple answer these questions:
Did Patterson have numerous troubles, some due to being young, some due to coaching, and some due to his mental strength?

Did Patterson start playing worse when he was booed ad nauseum?

Would Patterson play better in a place where fans treat him like how Mr. Rogers used to make me feel when I was a three year old?

If you answer yes to these questions, then you see my point. Yes, he had other problems. Yes, it was his fault that he couldn't handle booing. But if we're going to boo young guys, don't expect any "delicate geniuses" to make their way through our system any time soon. Thats fine with me, I can do without them.

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 25, 2006 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions

As I noted elsewhere...

... Patterson had numbers here in the first two months of 2005, that weren't too much different from where he is now.

Let's revisit this at the All-Star break.

by Al Yellon on May 24, 2006 8:27 PM CDT reply actions

fair enough

by whatever39 on May 24, 2006 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions

i do believe

this is a case where the revert to the mean argument will happen

"a sort of soft tyranny of positivity" -GM

by ksucubbie on May 24, 2006 8:28 PM CDT reply actions

Corey's a talent

how soon we forget all the promise he showed in '03. He played around 80 games that year until he got injured. He projected to hit about .290 20hr 85rbi that year if had stayed healthy. His '04 season wasn't to shabby either, .260 24hr 72rbi. Maybe as fans we were a little to quick to pull the trigger on him. With all the natural talent he has, my money is on him to have a good season.

cubsfan4life

by cubfan4life on May 24, 2006 9:12 PM CDT reply actions

Not true

Patterson's 2003 numbers were based upon a one-month period in which he went on a torrid hitting streak. It was the only period during his Cubs tenure in which he displayed the potential for big numbers that everyone was convinced he had.

As for this year, it appears that he is having another one of those rarified streaks ... but, as Al said, wait until the year's over before you rush to judgment about Patterson's potential being validated as an Oriole.

Luck is the residue of design. -- Branch Rickey

by Gregory on May 25, 2006 2:42 AM CDT up reply actions

Corey

I'm happy the guy's doing well. I hope he keeps it up. I just hope we don't have a lot of turncoats around here that wanted to ship the guy to Saudi Arabia over the winter but want him now.

He and the Cubs both needed a change.

"If it takes forever."

by JDay on May 24, 2006 10:05 PM CDT reply actions