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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Open Thread: Cubs vs. Padres, Sunday 5/7, 3:05 CT

Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,
And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout;
But there is no joy in Chicago -- mighty Jacque has struck out. Again.

(with many apologies to Ernest Lawrence Thayer)

 Today's Starting Pitchers
Angel Guzman
 A. Guzman
Cubs
vs. Woody Williams
 W. Williams
Padres
0-1 W-L 2-1
5.91 ERA 3.06
12 SO 21
7 BB 11
2 HR 4
vs. SD -- vs. Cubs
Don't look too long at that pitcher box -- your eyes will start hurting. This appears to be a pitching mismatch, although Williams is only 2-8 lifetime with a 4.71 ERA vs. the Cubs.

These stats probably don't matter given the current state of the team, but Juan Pierre is 12-for-25 vs. Williams, with a walk, no strikeouts, a double and two triples. Michael Barrett is 6-for-10 with two doubles and a triple, and Neifi is 15-for-43 (.349) with three doubles, a HR and 7 RBI.

Here's a stat that will astound you: the Cubs have not had a multiple-run inning in 77 innings. This is the third-longest such streak since 1916. 86 innings from May 17-28, 1961 and 90 innings from Sept. 3-12, 1963 are the only longer ones. I'd love for that streak to end in the first inning today.

Time for a breakout game. Seriously.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

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Well...
Ten Bucks says the Cubs get shut-out again...

Well, 2007 could look good!

Git 'er done!

by KChiCubs on May 7, 2006 11:49 AM CDT reply actions  

the best part of this season
is knowing afterwards we will (probably) have to find a lead off hitter again, and we get to see Jones for 2 more years!! So excited, time to start planning for 09.

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on May 7, 2006 12:24 PM CDT reply actions  

10 dollars says that:
Hendry eats his contract and DFA's Jones by the end of 07

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

i really hope so
but it would suprise me.

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on May 7, 2006 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or
Trades him for another big contract that is in it's last year and would be less than paying Jones for 3 yrs.
Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on May 7, 2006 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Might as well
start making those improvements now!  

by BringBackRyno on May 7, 2006 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Depressed, disgusted, discouraged
That about covers it for me today. Oh, and my mother is here "cleaning" my house. Oh happy day.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 7, 2006 12:38 PM CDT reply actions  

Re
Send her over here when she's done with yours.

by Jed Taylor on May 7, 2006 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or
bewitched, bothered, and bewildered. That fits..

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 7, 2006 12:44 PM CDT reply actions  

Ah
one of my favorites. . .
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 7, 2006 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or
flustered, flummoxed, and flamboozled. Taking alliterative liberties, I know.

by teacher tom on May 7, 2006 12:57 PM CDT reply actions  

Almost makes me happy that it's finals week...
That means I have something to do to take my mind off of....this. Whatever it is that you want to call what they are doing out there.

couldn't help but think of a certain scene in Bull Durham.

Skip: You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!
Larry: Lollygaggers!

AC 00 00 00 - BELIEVE

by mike @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on May 7, 2006 12:58 PM CDT reply actions  

A very good friend of mine
used to say, "This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains." Think about that for a while.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 7, 2006 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

me and Kev
go way back. Back to when he was still hot. LOL
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 7, 2006 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

When
his hair all fell out and he started exposing himself to masseuses at Scottish golf resorts.

I'll admit, he looks great as recently as "The Upside of Anger"

"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 7, 2006 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok, I seriously
regret cancelling my Enquirer subscription...

How did I miss all of this?

she

by Sarah Hope on May 7, 2006 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

My wife loves that movie,
maybe Kevin Costner or Tim Robbins has something to do with it.

by teacher tom on May 7, 2006 1:13 PM CDT reply actions  

Do we have a lineup yet?
n/t
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 7, 2006 1:40 PM CDT reply actions  

Lineups
1- Pierre CF
2- Cedeno SS
3- Walker 1B
4- Barrett C
5- A-Ram 3b
6- Murton LF
7- Jones RF
8- JHJ 2b
9- Pitcher

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Arguably...
...as good as it gets with what Dusty has.  At least Bynum is nowhere to be seen.

by Chadnudj on May 7, 2006 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Grrrr
JHJ again. Arg.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 7, 2006 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Re
Finally Barrett hitting 4th.  But Neifi! should be playing 2nd.  Other than that, Baker needs to lock this lineup down, quit moving people around every day like Lego blocks, and platoon JJ.  These are all things Baker could do to give his team a better chance at finding stability and turning it around.

BTW - I wonder if Barrett insisted on playing today, since it's a day game after a nite.  I hope so, because that's the kind of suck-it-up leadership this team needs right now.

by Jed Taylor on May 7, 2006 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Does anyone think that?
Tinkering with the lineups is having any negative effect on the offensive players?

I mean one moment you are hitting 4th and the next you're htting 7th.. Do you think players would have a tendency to press a bit and then swing at balls they would have normally taken?

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 2:29 PM CDT reply actions  

Go Guzzie!
And GO OFFENSE!  
Cubbie Blue always sPaRkLes in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on May 7, 2006 2:36 PM CDT reply actions  

I would like to see a stable lineup
but they need a stable team first. I like this lineup better than yesterday's but once again I find myself longing for Neifi. God help me.

by teacher tom on May 7, 2006 2:54 PM CDT reply actions  

I did the same thing last night...
I was like "Hairston??? Bleck!! Where's Neifi?"

In unrelated news, I was instantly struck by alightning bolt.

she

by Sarah Hope on May 7, 2006 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hairston > Neifi > Theriot> Ojeda
A logical progression.. boy its gotten ugly at 2b in Chicago

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

How can...
Dusty not play him?  Last year he had the worst excuses to play him, and now that he has good ones like Neifi hits this pitcher well and Hairston is doing bad he doesn't?  Take advantage while you can Dusty!
Cubbie Blue always sPaRkLes in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on May 7, 2006 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

a quick 1-2-3
boy i missed the Cubs top of the first... it lasted 3 minutes

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 3:10 PM CDT reply actions  

it's nice to see
the cubs really make Williams work.
"I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure."

by DanP on May 7, 2006 3:11 PM CDT reply actions  

How is our dear Woody doing?
Did he already finish his start?
Cubbie Blue always sPaRkLes in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on May 7, 2006 3:12 PM CDT reply actions  

Nevermind...
He doesn't start until 6:30.
Cubbie Blue always sPaRkLes in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on May 7, 2006 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

BAH
HIT THE CUTOFF MAN JJ

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 3:15 PM CDT reply actions  

Looking bad already...
2nd and 3rd with no outs...let's see how Guzman handles this.

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 3:16 PM CDT reply actions  

Game over
I'd like someone to run DNA tests to prove Jacque Jones isn't Sammy Sosa's less talented little brother.

by grifdog on May 7, 2006 3:19 PM CDT reply actions  

Good God
Way to keep that runner from advancing.  Can anybody say, "Uninspired"?
AC036198

by gjdow on May 7, 2006 3:19 PM CDT reply actions  

Was Barrett
always this bad defensively? Seems like he's regressed.

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 3:20 PM CDT reply actions  

This is embarassing
Guzman is terrible. Let's package him and Hill and get whatever we can for them. Throw in Jones for a case of beer.
"Aw, how could he lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico!"--Harry Caray

by cubbiejulie on May 7, 2006 3:25 PM CDT reply actions  

This Game's Over ...
Produce three runs?  Surely, you jest!

by 08Cubs on May 7, 2006 3:26 PM CDT reply actions  

We need...
Kobe Bryant to come play and inspire a late comeback!

Wait...

by grifdog on May 7, 2006 3:27 PM CDT reply actions  

We Need
half of a pitcher who can throw strikes that are not right down the middle up in the zone

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ron already sounds pained
If for nothing else, win it for him...we're past due for an offensive explosion.

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 3:28 PM CDT reply actions  

Hey now
Ramirez with a base hit..lets GO

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 3:32 PM CDT reply actions  

Ramirez
ARam's been drilling a lot of balls the past few days, and they're starting to fall for hits.  I think he's about out of his slump.
AC036198 Fire Dusty. Please.

by gjdow on May 7, 2006 3:32 PM CDT reply actions  

Come on Cubs
You're killing Ronnie

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 7, 2006 3:34 PM CDT reply actions  

Come-on Jacques
let's do something

by phatass on May 7, 2006 3:34 PM CDT reply actions  

I predict a 3 run HR
just 'cause...we really need it...this has been a dark week.

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 3:35 PM CDT reply actions  

THE WORLD JUST ENDED
Rallykiller with an RBI base hit?  I am speechless.
AC036198 Fire Dusty. Please.

by gjdow on May 7, 2006 3:35 PM CDT reply actions  

Hey now
And before Jones's at bat, I was going to say the Cubs should pay him for his services this year in Golden Sombreros

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 7, 2006 3:35 PM CDT reply actions  

Like no way..
that was a run! wow.. its been a long time since someone has gotten a base hit w/RISP

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 3:35 PM CDT reply actions  

2 runs
In 2 games, stop the presses!!

by akcubfan on May 7, 2006 3:36 PM CDT reply actions  

base hit for JJ
Now let's get some more. Only one out.

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 3:36 PM CDT reply actions  

Maybe
the pigs in Cincinatti will fly

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

People in Cincy better duck!
No prob, Guzman is the best player on the field for SD today.

by grifdog on May 7, 2006 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hariston too?
Did Baker sprinkle holy water on these guys?
AC036198 Fire Dusty. Please.

by gjdow on May 7, 2006 3:38 PM CDT reply actions  

Woody Williams....
Must feel terrible. This team got shot out by Chan Ho park after all

by CosmicCharlie911 on May 7, 2006 3:38 PM CDT reply actions  

Hairston singles
But no RBI...bases loaded, one out.

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 3:38 PM CDT reply actions  

Loaded with one out!
Comeon, Guzman! No DP.

by phatass on May 7, 2006 3:38 PM CDT reply actions  

Terrible
Guzman GIDP on the first pitch...just...at least strike out...

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 3:39 PM CDT reply actions  

Ron...
was just talking with Pat how you will never see everything in baseball, and then he ends the inning by saying, 'Oh, I've seen it all!'
Cubbie Blue always sPaRkLes in my eyes.

by sparkles721 on May 7, 2006 3:40 PM CDT reply actions  

Intentional Strikeout
I've never understood why there isn't an "intentional strikeout".  Just keep the bat on your shoulder -- if you get really lucky, you may walk.  If not, do no harm.

Yeesh.

by 08Cubs on May 7, 2006 3:42 PM CDT reply actions  

What just happened?
was that just a 1-2-3 inning? amazing... Trade this guy please.. he is all bark no bite

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 3:47 PM CDT reply actions  

1-2-3
Much better inning for Guz

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 3:47 PM CDT reply actions  

A-Ram
2-2 hr single.. tie game

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 4:05 PM CDT reply actions  

ARam
Is now officially out of his slump.

by phatass on May 7, 2006 4:05 PM CDT reply actions  

Aramis homers!
cue NBA Jam announcer..."He's heating up!"

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 4:06 PM CDT reply actions  

NBA Jam
great game
"I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure."

by DanP on May 7, 2006 4:06 PM CDT reply actions  

Let's hope Murton doesn't
have to get hit again to get on base

by phatass on May 7, 2006 4:06 PM CDT reply actions  

Murton
tap single.. 1 out runner on

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 4:06 PM CDT reply actions  

I better go get my eyes checked
Jones walked
"I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure."

by DanP on May 7, 2006 4:09 PM CDT reply actions  

JJ clogs 1st
with a walk Murton thrown out at second but called safe

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 4:10 PM CDT reply actions  

WOW
a lead!

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 4:10 PM CDT reply actions  

Yes!
Now, Guzman, sit down and be patient.

by phatass on May 7, 2006 4:11 PM CDT reply actions  

Nice play all around
Not only was that a good bunt, but I appreciate Guzman's attempt to keep the play alive as long as possible.
AC036198 Fire Dusty. Please.

by gjdow on May 7, 2006 4:11 PM CDT reply actions  

Damn!
Pierre whiffs...but it's okay...we do have the lead, and the bats seem to be waking up today.

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 4:14 PM CDT reply actions  

wild pitch
Settle down and throw strikes!

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 4:19 PM CDT reply actions  

STOP GIVING AWAY BASES
passed balls, wild pitches, sheesh!

by CubFaninNY on May 7, 2006 4:19 PM CDT reply actions  

Hairston just
Earned his pay for the day.

by phatass on May 7, 2006 4:27 PM CDT reply actions  

phew
Guzman escapes a jam...score still tied.

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 4:29 PM CDT reply actions  

lol
cedeno's just a remarkable hitter...

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 4:31 PM CDT reply actions  

oh yeah
lets just forget he went 3-5 yesterday

you want to take that game away from his stats too?

"a sort of soft tyranny of positivity" -GM

by ksucubbie on May 7, 2006 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

what's hos obp since april 10?
.298, i think. GREAT. hall of fame, really.

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

or the fact
that going into todays game he led our team in BA at .320
"a sort of soft tyranny of positivity" -GM

by ksucubbie on May 7, 2006 4:36 PM CDT reply actions  

it was an ugly AB
but if he gets 1 hit every 3 attempts and looks like that every other one .. i'll take it

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 4:38 PM CDT reply actions  

he's
a freakin rookie! let the kid learn

what we are seeing is just raw talent to hit how he has- once he learns how to bat by experiance things will get better

"a sort of soft tyranny of positivity" -GM

by ksucubbie on May 7, 2006 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Swinging at a ball over your head is a
Little League thing to do.. Not to be done in the ML's

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

oh please
every player will look bad from time to time trying to hit a high fastball

it happens lets not make any all encompassing indictments about him because of it

"a sort of soft tyranny of positivity" -GM

by ksucubbie on May 7, 2006 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

He has done it..
he did it two or three times against the Diamondbacks too.. if this were just an isolated incident I wouldn't have made the comment.. but it has happened more often than I would like..

by cubsfan2883 on May 7, 2006 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Base Hit Cedeno
Where's the outrage?
What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on May 7, 2006 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

it was
one of the worst swings i have ever seen.  reminded me of burnitz getting turned completely around.

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on May 7, 2006 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

yea you nitpicking knuckleheads
"I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure."

by DanP on May 7, 2006 4:41 PM CDT reply actions  

when does shark week start?

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on May 7, 2006 4:50 PM CDT reply actions  

This game...
... might have been manageable if Rusch (who throws better out of the bullpen) had been in there instead of Novoa.

Novoa -- back to Iowa with you!

by Al Yellon on May 7, 2006 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

control problems
I still have a hard time thinking they go away jsut because your in the bullpen.  Has he made a bullpen appearance yet?  Been missing some games lately.

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on May 7, 2006 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

nevermind
just saw he had a good two innings in arizona.

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on May 7, 2006 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

great
we can bring back aardsma!!

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well...
... how much worse could it get?

by Al Yellon on May 7, 2006 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

it can't
welcome to the 90 loss conumdrum.

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

sorry
"conundrum" :)

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

do we specialize in this?
hard throwing hurlers who can't find the plate?

by CubFaninNY on May 7, 2006 4:51 PM CDT reply actions  

farnsworth
looked good today, speaking of wasted talent unharnassed by a bismall coaching staff.

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on May 7, 2006 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

this really is a great bullpen, hey?
much improved, i'd say. best in the nl, i'd say.

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 4:51 PM CDT reply actions  

comforting
my alternative is the mariners.  side step at best.

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on May 7, 2006 4:53 PM CDT reply actions  

lmmfao
dusty just turned to rothschild in the dugout and said -- very clearly via lipsynch -- "what do we do?"

rotflmao!

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 4:55 PM CDT reply actions  

answer
"call up theriot and ryu and play for 2007."

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Theriot...
... why? He's not going to be a major league regular.

Ryu -- OK, I'll buy that. Get rid of Novoa, bring Ryu up.

by Al Yellon on May 7, 2006 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

i'm not sure about that
and what do you have to lose? this team's finished. find out what's in the cupboard.

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

fwiw
if theriot can't be a major leaguer, there's no hope what-so-ever for cedeno.

it may be so for both, but let's find out.

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, sure...
... NOW he brings Rusch in.

by Al Yellon on May 7, 2006 4:58 PM CDT reply actions  

Novoa
is in the bigs why? Wasn't he this bad last year? I seem to remember a lot of hard throwing, but not much pitching.

by Perkins on May 7, 2006 4:59 PM CDT reply actions  

this is the problem
the whole organization is short of effective pitching. the bullpen isn't deep enough -- hasn't been all along. it's why they'll be average in most every metric in the end.

howry and eyre were a great start -- but only a start. job half done, cruller jim.

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

no this
is silly

League average for SS is .266 Ronny is .320

and he cant hit?

http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/story/2006/5/7/51549/71028

or you in this thread- and then not defending your view

thats silly

"a sort of soft tyranny of positivity" -GM

by ksucubbie on May 7, 2006 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

good luck with this
i hope you're right in two months.

but you won't be.

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dusty's a buffoon!
When has Novoa been good with RISP?

by CubFaninNY on May 7, 2006 4:59 PM CDT reply actions  

The answer is not only "NEVER"...
... but look at these splits (Career totals):

with RISP: 11.57 1.76 .286  (ERA, WHIP, Opp BA)
with RISP & 2 out: 23.82 2.12 .286 (ERA, WHIP, Opp BA)

Do these guys even READ stat sheets?

by Al Yellon on May 7, 2006 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not Dusty's
style.  He prefers to go with his gut feelings...

by BringBackRyno on May 7, 2006 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

why is he allowed to do that?
how many stupid decisions is he allowed before he gets canned?

by CubFaninNY on May 7, 2006 5:08 PM CDT reply actions  

Wasting pitchers again
let Rusch hit, we can't afford giving up more runs!

by CubFaninNY on May 7, 2006 5:17 PM CDT reply actions  

Mabry
is the top pinch hitter--Dusty tends to use Bynum earlier in the game, in non-pressure situations.  

However, pinch-hitting Bynum for Rusch (or for anybody, really) seems pointless.  Bynum was a joke from day 1.

by Short4Fanatic on May 7, 2006 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

outhitting the opponent, yet losing big
today it's the walks, what will it be tomorrow?

7 free passes given up, one taken, ridiculous!

by CubFaninNY on May 7, 2006 5:26 PM CDT reply actions  

here's a perfect example
of dusty's incompetence.

ohman has a .188 baa against lefties. why does he have a 9.20 era?

because he's faced almost as many righthanders as lefthanders.

can we send dustbag to the scrapheap yet?

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 5:30 PM CDT reply actions  

That doesn't tell the whole story
Ohman has been used late in a bunch of games that were already out of hand, when the cubs had already used several pitchers and needed somebody to get them through another inning.  That's probably when he faced a bunch of the right-handed hitters.

by Short4Fanatic on May 7, 2006 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dusty has few options
The bullpen is spent. Ohman was available. At this point it doesnt matter. The Cubs are done. Bankrupt!

by MOE on May 7, 2006 5:39 PM CDT reply actions  

You Just Knew
The pitching would break down the day we get three runs.  The note upthread about Dusty asking Rothschild "What do we do now?" was just priceless.

Anybody know how to clone Pujols?

by 08Cubs on May 7, 2006 5:50 PM CDT reply actions  

Insulting!
They are straight up telling the cubs they don't even their closer for this weaak squad!  I feel sick......
To Bleed or Not to Bleed?

by TheRamZamDLEE on May 7, 2006 5:52 PM CDT reply actions  

Cubs oblige them
JJones 1st pitch swinging. Stupid.

by CubFaninNY on May 7, 2006 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

without as much as a whimper
what a clueless manager
what a hopeless team.

by CubFaninNY on May 7, 2006 5:56 PM CDT reply actions  

I can't even say
that I really care anymore.

Wow. That sucks. I can't believe I just said that. But it's true.

--Tim http://fridayafternoonintheuniverse.blogspot.com

by elscorcho0682 on May 7, 2006 5:59 PM CDT reply actions  

they're done for this year
but there's a lot to be hopeful about for 2007, at least.

keeping playing the kids -- even cedeno.

by gaius marius on May 7, 2006 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

I beg to differ...
... on your assertion that they are "done" this year... for further info please check out cubbiejulie's diary on the 2003 Marlins, who were 19-29 at a later point in May than where we sit right now, and had lost key players to injury, etc.

Yet another example of how your assertion that teams 5+ games out in early May are "done" is just plain wrong.

by Al Yellon on May 8, 2006 4:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

great
meteors also occasionally hit the earth and wipe out most of the life on the planet.

should we expect it to happen this year? ;)

you can deny it if you like, sir, but you clearly haven't cared to take the evidence about what going five back at this juncture means in terms of probability.

by gaius marius on May 8, 2006 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

I just don't understand...
... why you won't look at real-life examples, of which not only I, but several others, have quoted here...

You bend statistics to fit your own views, and I suppose we do too... so why are we wrong and you are right?

The answer is that we're not, and neither are you.

Yet. It is too early.

by Al Yellon on May 8, 2006 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

lol
do you really think i haven't?

i'm always amazed at the total lack of education most people have in probability. it's no wonder people play slot machines.

i HAVE looked at the exceptions to the rule, al -- ad nauseum. but they are EXCEPTIONS -- as in uncommon, rare or unexpected.

if you're relying on cub exceptionalism, bully for you -- but prepare for disappointment yet again.

by gaius marius on May 8, 2006 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wasn't it you...
...that said in a previous diary that NO NL team since 1995 went on to win their division after trailing by 5 games during the season?

OK, a casual check reveals these teams that did EXACTLY that.  

Braves 2005
Braves 2004
Cubs 2003
Cardinals 2002
Astros 2001
Cardinals 2001

All within the past five years.

I'm sure there are more, but that is what I came up with in a quick check.

How can we take you seriously when you make such sweeping statements and then back it up with false, if not purposely distorted information?

by jazzman56 on May 8, 2006 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

To put it another way...
...from 2001-2005, they were 16 NL Division to be won (16 instead of 15 because in 2001 the Cardinals and the Astros tied).  At least 6 of those were won by teams that came from 5 or more back.

That is 37.5% or more.  Those are not exceptions, they are a TREND.

by jazzman56 on May 8, 2006 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

in other words
10 of 16 never fell back by more than five.

that's in approximate keeping with what i'm saying -- falling five out cuts your chances of success in the end by somewhat more than half.

by gaius marius on May 8, 2006 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not in keeping with...
...what you have said at all.

You have used terms like "odds are so remote now that they barely register", "phenomenally rare", "occurs once in a half century", to describe a team's chances when they trail by a good amount in May.

A casual check of recent history proves it is not so!  So, why don't you just concede the point so we can move on to more interesting stuff?  

I'd hate to see you hurt yourself back-peddling that fast.

by jazzman56 on May 8, 2006 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

again
attention to detail, please, if you continue to engage the argument.

going down five on may 3 is clearly and factually very devastating, moreso than going down five at any point.

it does seem that the tendency in the data suggests (though i haven't yet quantified it) that going down five early is much worse than going down five later in the year -- which makes rational sense as well, if one considers that going out five late means having to have been competitive up until that point.

by gaius marius on May 8, 2006 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

even so
without taking into account another degree of freedom in the date, having one's playoff chances halved is a very big blow. consider that any team's chances are broadly 1 in 4 -- going back five would then cut them then to 1 in 8 or 9, which is 11 or 12 playoff appearances in a century.

that is, i might note, the approximate cubs rate of success since 1933.

and going back on in early may seems to indicate a yet greater attrition -- to something like a 4% success rate, or halved again.

by gaius marius on May 8, 2006 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

not so
...even a causal perusal of the historical standings shows that it is not at all unusual for a team to surge and recede many times during a season.

It is easy to find a number of teams that fell behind early, then caught up, then fell behind again and then caught up again. Sometimes they go on to win the division and sometimes they fall short.  But, there is no getting away from the fact that they stayed in the race and had a chance to win in Septemnber.  And that is what teams strive for.

This completely goes against your theory that falling behind early is a death blow.

Furthermore, it is extrmely common for a team to pick up three games or more in the course of a week or two, literally at any point during the season.

This fact alone puts to bed the theory that an early five game deficit is somehow a death sentence.  In reality, it is a small speed bump.

by jazzman56 on May 8, 2006 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Re
Common sense tells us that it is not extremely common for a team to pick up three games in the standings in the course of a week or two.  I'll bet you that for every team you find that's done it, I can find 20+ that, during the same time period you choose, didn't.  That means it happens less than 5% of the time.  If you think 5% is "extremely common", it's no wonder probability is a concept lost on many here at BCB.

First, a team has to go on a winning streak.  Then, the division leader has to lose (or, more correctly, not win) at a rate that's greater than the other team's winning streak of 3 or more games out of, say 12 to be generous (since there's huge difference between the end points of your range).  To get the probability, you'd multiply the likelihood of these two events together.

The first event is far more likely than the second, because you get to choose from every team not in first place having a winning streak.  The second event, however, is far less likely because it's just one team and any team good enough to be leading the division isn't going to have many losing streaks during the season.

Finally, you get to cherry-pick the time frame.  Let me do the same and I'll find week after week after week when no division leader lost 3 games to any other team in its division.  Shouldn't all these failure be included in the overall probability?  Of course they should.

In his exhuberance to make it clear that the probability of coming back from 5 games down to win the division is pretty low, Gauis may have used adjectives that overstate the case.  But he's absolutely correct that the probability is low, lower than, say, drawing to an inside straight after the flop in HE.  Does it happen?  Sure.  Should you bet on it?  Not without great pot odds.  And the pot odds for the Cubs are horrid right now.

The math is really pretty simple.  How many teams each year are 5 games or more out of the division lead on, say, June 1st?  How many of those teams come back to win their division?  Divide the two.  Repeat for each year, then average your results.  If it's greater than 10%, I'll push a peanut down Clark Street with my nose.

If you (the general you) want to hang you hat on a 1-in-10 shot, got for it.  I'm rooting for the Cubs to be the 1-in-10 exception, but my money's firmly in my pocket on them doing so.

by Jed Taylor on May 9, 2006 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

We can add...
...the 2005 San Diego Padres to the list.  Now we are up to 7/16 or 44%.

by jazzman56 on May 8, 2006 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

as of may 3
again, sir, you can't seem to keep the details straight. you're so interested in affirming your bias that you can't bring yourself to think with a clear head.

what i said is that of the 50 teams five or more back on may 3 since 1995 none won the division.

it's not the information that's wrong. it's your inability to set your prejudice aside and focus on detail.

fwiw, as i pour more work into this, it seems to me that somewhat less than half of playoff clubs fall afoul of the five game rule. in other words, going five back cuts your chances in half.

that's devastating when you consider that the chances of going to the playoffs in baseball are slight anyway.

moreover, though i haven't quantified it yet, the tendency of the data seems to indicate -- counterintuitively, perhaps -- that the earlier a team gets five back, the worse for them it is. this would help explain why the success rate from may 3 -- just a month in -- is so small.

and that makes sense. a team that can hang in until july without falling out is a more competitive club with a greater chance of reconciliation. teams that go five back after just a month usually have deeper issues that will send them 20 back or more.

by gaius marius on May 8, 2006 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

But, your original post...
...said at any time during the season.  You are the one that can't keep it straight.  All but one of the teams on this last trailed by 5 or more AFTER May 3rd, so what is the logic behind choosing that as the cutoff date?  It proves nothing and has no value whatsoever.

by jazzman56 on May 8, 2006 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah
you actually have to keep up with the conversation when talking with me. :)

to review for you:

i studied may 3 as a specific subset of the general case.

i studied the cubs as a subset of the general case.

now i've studied houston as a subset of the general case.

and what have we learned so far?

-- that going down five at any point apparently cuts a team's playoff chances by slightly more than half;

-- that going down five early may be quite a bit worse than going down five later, which would account for the much more devastating attrition rate for may 3 than overall.

by gaius marius on May 8, 2006 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

And just so nobody...
...is deceived by your frantic back-peddling, I'll point out that the Padres trailed by 5 games on April 28th last year.  And hmmm...they went on to win their division.

I'm sure a lot of their fans thought at the begionning of May 2005 that the Padres had issues that would prevent them from winning the division, yet somehow they did.  Just last year.  

by jazzman56 on May 8, 2006 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

And on May 3rd last year...
the Padres were 4.5 GB. but 5 out in the loss column.

So we don't have to look any further than 2005 for an example that disproves your "once every half-century" argument.

by jazzman56 on May 8, 2006 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

tell you what
if you want to look smart, why not prove your case with large numbers -- instead of cherry-picking refutations, actually apply the thought and do the work of examining large numbers of cases to determine probabilities.

once again -- i have no trouble conceding that there are exceptions to the rule. we're talking about probability, after all. but the rule is the rule nonetheless.

and please -- don't mischaracterize my arguments by taking words out of context. it makes you sound like maury povich.

by gaius marius on May 8, 2006 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you are...
...disowning your previous posts, then that is up to you.  It has nothing to do with me (or Maury Povich).

In addition to completely obscuring the original concept with pointless restrictions on the facts that ultimately proves nothing, you are now pissing me off.

The overall point is this and I suggest you read carefully, because I'm not repeating it again for you.

Teams frequently come from anywhere from 3 to 7 games behind during April, May, June July and even August.  It happens all the time.  

That is the point.  Using exactly May 3rd or exactly 5 GB is meaningless, because it is a moving target.  The Cubs could be 3 GB in a week, or they could be 9 GB and the list of comparable teams tilts dramatically one way or the other if that happens.

And neither you or anybody else know what will happen in the next week or even further out.

by jazzman56 on May 8, 2006 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

to answer the question
so why are we wrong and you are right?

because exceptions to the rule by their rarity prove the rule, not the exceptions.

you can cite all the exceptional examples there are. they remain nonetheless exceptions.

you tell me 2005 houston. fine. i never said it's impossible.

i said it's unlikely. and for my evidence, i'll cite 2005 pittsburgh, 2005 cincinnati, 2005 milwaukee and the 2005 cubs -- as well as the 2005 teams for colorado, los angeles, san francisco, arizona, washington, florida and the mets.

i know that human sensibility tends to distort reality in such a way as to radically overemphasize the frequency and importance of the unusual, and i know that a basic western education does nothing to remedy that flaw -- but it is wrong to do so nonetheless.

by gaius marius on May 8, 2006 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Of course...
... there are going to be many teams that are 5+ games back in May and don't win. Sheesh. There are twenty-two teams each year that don't make the playoffs.

You are attempting to study this as if it were just numbers on a page. They're not just numbers. They represent real performance by real human beings.

I'd buy your theory more readily if you went back, say, to the beginning of divisional play in 1969 and studied ALL teams and told me then, how many came back from such a deficit at ANY time during the season. Even then, since there are a large percentage of ALL teams that DON'T make the playoffs every year -- no matter how far ahead or behind they get -- your "percentage" theory is faulty.

by Al Yellon on May 8, 2006 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Re
But that's exactly the point, Al.  Because only 8 out of 30 teams can make the playoffs under any circumstance, it's important not to dig yourself in a hole early.  Doing so makes it significantly more unlikely that you'll overcome the inherent disadvantage every team starts with on opening day.

And none of this takes into account the structural differences between teams.  For instance, last year the Bankees started the marathon very slowly, but given their makeup, it was hardly surprising that they eventually climbed back into the playoffs.  Can anyone look at the Cubs and argue they have the same kind of potential?  Yet counting the Bankees success last year without factoring this in raises the probability for the Cubs doing so this year, when, in fact, the underlying reason actually argues against them.

by Jed Taylor on May 9, 2006 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

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