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Around SBN: Raiders' GM Begins The Purge

Firing Baker now won't improve Cubs

Firing the man on the top step of the Cubs dugout seems like a fitting and just conclusion to the disappointment we've felt since mid-October 2003.  A team that has looked punch-drunk ever since a game-tying 3-run HR by Victor Diaz on Sept. 25, 2004 (losing 132 times and logging just a .450 winning percentage since), we've been waiting for this team to play up to its expectations.

Dusty Baker may or may not lead this team to its next winning season. Only Jim Hendry knows for sure.  But recent Cub history and some currently existing and not easily changeable elements show that making the manager the fall guy in mid-season leads to more disappointment and an inability to judge the replacement fairly.

The new manager will be using the same personnel as Baker.  

Casey Stengel would have the same options if he was managing the Cubs: bat Neifi 2nd or 7th, start Bynum in LF or RF tonight, would Z have the same chance of Mabry of a late-inning pitch-hit.  I dare anyone to make a winner with the 25 men (24 at this point) that Dusty has had at his disposal during the first 2 months of the season.   More ABs from Bynum (70), Womack (67) and Blanco (63) than Derrek Lee (44)??  Rich Hill and Angel Guzman equaling Wood's start totals (4)??  Or Jay Kuk U. matching Prior (1)??   Could any manager anywhere win consistently with players like that to choose from?

The new manager would bring in a new set of coaches and new philosophies.  

That works well in spring training.  But its success in mid-season is less probable than a crapshoot.  Think of human nature when a substitute teacher is brought in.  A new boss at work.  A new step-father.  The threshold of success, even the threshold of tolerance is often set so high that instant gratification...any gratification... is nearly unheard of. "A new hitting coach, huh?  Great.  I wonder how this guy is going to try to change me."  Players, already sensing that the season is a lost cause, now get confirmation from the organization when the manager and coaches they've been listening to for years are gone and a new group of men that likely all players have never met, and in some cases, never heard of comes in to try to divert a last place finish.  If introductions are made in February and the team has a chance to get to know the players for six weeks when win-loss records don't count and players have a chance to adjust, changes can be productive.  But when changes are made mid-season, you risk players tuning out, turning off and showing even less drive.  Managers, some living their ultimate dream for the first time, will choose the mediocre sure thing over developing a rookie anyday (see Fred McGriff vs. Hee Seop Choi).

The 29 best managers have a job right now.

The selection is thin on the managerial store shelves at this time of the season.  During the winter, you might get to reel in the big name coming off a successful tenure elsewhere.  Even in September, you might snag a guy that was fired by a different yet equally disappointed organization.  But finding the kind of guy that you'd want to "see what they can do with this team" in the last 100 games often turns disastrous.  Since Whitey Lockman replaced Leo Durocher in 1972 and when 39-26 (.600) to lead the team to a 2nd place finish, mid-season Cub replacements have failed, and in some cases failed miserably.

1974 - Whitey Lockman is replaced by Jim Marshall, who goes 22-44 (.362) as the team finished last.

1983 - Lee Elia is replaced by Charlie Fox, who goes 17-22 (.436) as the team finished fifth.

1986 - Jim Frey is replaced by Gene Michael, who goes 46-56 (.451) as the team finished fifth.

1987 - Gene Michael is replaced by Frank Lucchesi, who goes 8-17 (.320) as the team finished last.

1991 - Don Zimmer is replaced by Jim Essian, who goes 59-63 (.484) as the team finished fourth.

2002 - Don Baylor is replaced by Bruce Kimm who goes 33-45 (.423) as the team finished fifth.

There is no guarantee of improvement over the deposed manager, no indication in any of these hirings that the team hired the 'right man', no indication that "all this team needs is to get rid of that bum and bring in fresh blood."  Look again at that list:

Jim Marshall
Charlie Fox
Gene Michael
Frank Lucchesi
Jim Essian
Bruce Kimm

Is there anyone available right now that wouldn't end up on this list in a couple years for future Cub fan to mock?  All were arguably good baseball men.  But were they better than Leo Durocher, Jim Frey or Don Zimmer?  They were brought into a situation in which success wasn't possible.  The candidate pool is so shallow that it's nearly impossible to find anyone that can single-handed turn this team, or any bad team around.

Does Baker deserve to continue managing the Cubs?  Would he have been better with a better team?  Perhaps, as he certainly came here with a winning record.  Would things have been different with Prior, Wood and Lee healthy?  Should he be blamed for the injuries?  Should Hendry?  Maybe.  But the bigger question is: Is there someone out there that, if filling out the line-up card in Cleveland tonight, would actually get better results on the field than Baker?  

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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It all....
depends on the philosphy of the team.

If they are going to gut the team and go young.  Baker, IMHO, needs to go.

If they are going to ride this out, it really does not matter AS long as he does not get the extension.  

he who is tired....

I went to Wrigley and all I got was this crappy "In Dusty We Trusty" shirt!

by timeforachange on Jun 20, 2006 4:03 PM CDT reply actions  

This is why
I don't work out.

she who only runs when being chased.

she

by Sarah Hope on Jun 20, 2006 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

same shit
different day.  if they take one more walk they wouldn't have before I will call it a victory.

by mike bornemann @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Jun 20, 2006 4:22 PM CDT reply actions  

The point is...
... that no one who would TRULY make a difference in the Cubs for the longterm, if that is the way you think they should go by firing Baker, is even available right now.

Most likely, they'd name Dick Pole, or even worse, Sonny Jackson, interim manager. Then they'd have to start the search all over again in the off-season.

Just let the year play out. NO ONE could do better with this roster.

by Al Yellon on Jun 20, 2006 4:56 PM CDT reply actions  

Well....
I guess we will have to agree to disagree about your "NO ONE" comment.

Where does the Dusty Baker Fan Club line start?

he who just ordered DAgostino's

I went to Wrigley and all I got was this crappy "In Dusty We Trusty" shirt!

by timeforachange on Jun 20, 2006 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why not Ernie Banks?
Banks was the first African American to manage a game at the professional level.  Why not Banks for manager?

From what I have heard seen and been told about Ernie, he is a consumate professional who absolutely loves the game of baseball.  I know he is just a name but he has experience hitting that he could impose on some of the struggling Cub hitters.

He also played the game the right way. I know my vote counts less than it does every four years but I vote for Ernie.

by cubsfan2883 on Jun 20, 2006 5:16 PM CDT reply actions  

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
Pick a name, any name, that you've heard of, and WOW! He'd make a great manager.

Banks is 75 years old. He has been out of baseball since he retired as a player -- that's THIRTY-FIVE YEARS AGO!!

What on EARTH would make you think that he would be able to construct lineups, manage pitching staffs, coach hitters? If he had ANY idea how to do so, he'd have been doing it for the last 35 years instead of being out of the game.

This is the Steve Stone argument, only more ridiculous.

by Al Yellon on Jun 20, 2006 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well for one...
Jack McKeon was how old when he won the World Series? Yes.

Plus sometimes it isn't about age as much as its about energy.

He has managerial experience and his energy could transfer to the listless team. I would at least like to see him take a hitting coach position.  Yes, I am an Ernie Banks fan. How do you know he hasn't been doing those things? (he has worked with the Cubs since 1971 I am sure).

by cubsfan2883 on Jun 20, 2006 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

What managerial experience
does Ernie Banks have?  As far as I can tell, his managerial experience consists of three innings of a game back in 1973 when Whitey Lockman got tossed.  Is that what you're talking about?

Might as well hire Ted Turner.  At least he managed an entire game.

Jack McKeon had been in baseball as a manager or front office man almost continuously for more than thirty years before taking the Marlins job.  To compare his record (or Frank Robinson's) to Ernie Banks' is silly.  Banks has not worked for the Cubs as anything other than a hand-shaker for over thirty years.

Phil Cavarretta is still alive and knows what it means to be a Cub player in the World Series.  He even managed the Cubs for two and a half years.  Would you also support Cavarretta being named manager?

The Tigers hired a much younger and almost as popular player with no managerial experience and little coaching experience.  How'd Alan Trammell work out for them?  How great have they gotten after they fired Trammell and replaced him with a real manager who knows what he's doing?

Al's right.  People are just throwing out names.  You could at least make an argument that Billy Williams was marginally qualified or that Ryne Sandberg knows what it's like to play today's game.  But Ernie Banks?  

by Josh Timmers on Jun 20, 2006 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

At this point in this season...
...for the sake of seeing what the younger players can do I say we hire Coach Buttermaker.  He can sit on the bench with a six-pack of Schlitz and watch the girl (Prior) pitch and just let the boys have fun.
vote santo for h.o.f.

by santo for prez on Jun 20, 2006 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Banks has not worked for the Cubs...
... in many years. I recall him being a part-time coach when he was still playing, but that's it.

Again, like Steve Stone, he's a wonderful fellow, but totally unqualified to be in baseball management.

by Al Yellon on Jun 21, 2006 4:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

So
is Dusty.  WTF is anyone worried about this year for. It's been over for a month.  Dusty should go before he can ruin any more of the players.  

The other guy might be worse dooesn't cut it when the current guy is making 4 million a year.  He should have been fired after thhe choke in 04.  Letting thhe pplayers blame the announcers, umps, and fans was pitiful.

by pwhalen on Jun 21, 2006 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

The main reason I'd like to see Dusty fired
is because the longer he's around, the more I worry about him getting a contract extension.  That is something I would definitely not like to see happen.  
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" -Homer J. Simpson

by Whitebacon on Jun 20, 2006 5:20 PM CDT reply actions  

Hendry
In my humble opinion Hendry put this team together and the blame needs to lie with him ONLY! Blame Dusty for everything but his choices have been pretty slim. Was going to do an entire diary on this but here it goes here...Lee (hurt) Jones (slow start, warmed up, throws like a girl) Pierre (extremely slow start, will he ever rebound) Murton (young struggles) Aramis (great spring, terrible April-May-??) Neiffi (bad) Wood 9never may make it back) Prior (bombed) Marshall (some promise, inconsistent) Maddux (hate to see it but he is old) Big Z (lost some games he never would have) All the Young Arms Starting (been bad) Nevin and Womack (nice bump, will it hold?)Barrett (suspended)The REST (bad).......TWO BRIGHT SPOTS: WALKER AND CEDENO! This is the GM' fault, how would you like to manage this team??? Baker must have NIGHTMARES! Get some players and let's see what happens. This is SQUARELY on Hendry.

by mrcubsfan on Jun 20, 2006 6:01 PM CDT reply actions  

Great post
You are 100% on the money.  

by Mike63 on Jun 20, 2006 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm glad you agree
I've thought about this for quite some time wondering if we are so unlucky that every player we have either gets hurt or has an off year. But this team is devoid of players that can produce. For $90 odd million you would think somebody would get us out of LAST in nearly every offensive category. Blame Dusty all you want, but the hand he was dealt is not major league caliber.

by mrcubsfan on Jun 20, 2006 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes...
..the players stink and a different manager wouldn't make THAT much of a difference.  Hendry acquired the players, he's mostly to blame for this season.  However, there's several guys on this roster that were acquired/retained because Dusty wanted them.  Hendry built the team Dusty wanted.  Dusty wants aggressive hitters that run fast.  Dusty doesn't have patience for hitters that are patient.  

The bottom line is getting better players wouldn't make Dusty a better manager.  They'd win more games, of course, but his poor philosophy/management would still cost them games and/or playoff series.  

by MikeJ on Jun 20, 2006 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

you said it best
MikeJ, Hendry should be held responsible for listening to Baker, but remember, many of these men are only on the team because they fit Baker's mold.  Secondly, the players on the team could be playing better if Baker taught them discipline at the plate.  However, he insists on "agressive hitting" which translates into swinging at many bad pitches, which translates into pop-ups and double plays, which translates into losing, which translates into people perceiving these already bad players as being worse than they actually are, which translates into people incorrectly placing all the blame on Hendry.  We must remember, the manager is the captain of this ship.  Even if the ship-builder is largely responsible (which Hendry is) for building the very brittle titanic, the captain must also bear some blame for not avoiding the iceberg!  Baker has failed to teach patience at the plate and he has failed to reenforce key fundamentals.  Also, he has batted neifi and pierre and womack in the 1, and 2 spots while benching walker.  that is a prime example of not just colliding with the iceberg, but recklessly aiming for it!
So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jun 21, 2006 1:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

How about this
They both deserve blame, as well as the players.  Replacing Dusty now won't make a difference, but just because he's been given inferior players doesn't mean that he's not at least somewhat culpable with the teams record.  Girardi was given inferior players and he's got them playing well.  Batting Neifi second is mind boggling for sure but in the grand scheme of things it's not going to have that large an impact on the season.  Having Neifi on the team is.  Who's responsible for that?  I think both Hendry and Dusty are.  And Neifi is only one example, there are others.

I say blame Hendry for the poor macro-management of the team and blame Dusty for the poor micro-management of the team.

by pageian on Jun 21, 2006 3:16 PM CDT reply actions  

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