Fire Coaching Staff--Keep Baker.

by southerncubbie on Jun 3, 2006 3:05 AM CDT

As an unashamed, long time Baker supporter, I have often posted in defense of the Cubs' manager who led us to our best season since 1984. I accept that, and I accept that some of you don't think Baker is the man to bring our Cubbies a championship--nuff said.

However, I have never seen--and I admit that I could have missed--a posting that suggested the Cubs offer Baker a contract, but only with the stipulation that the coaching staff is replaced: top to bottom. We need some hungry, hands-on baseball lifers and thinkers who are motivated to rally the players and do everything possible to get the best out of them.

First off, I think we all agree that the Cubs organization has made one major mistake: eating the hype surrounding our young aces, and relying too heavily on their arms--namely Prior and Wood; Secondly, and contrastingly, we've also been the recepients of misfortunate with our injuries: namely, Wood (2 years), Prior (2 years), Ramirez (last year), Garciaparra, and now D. Lee (whose absence I believe is compounded by the fact that the absence of his presence negatively effects our lineup in a synergistic way). These two facts cannot be argued, nor underestimated.

Hey, I love Sarge. He's one of my favorite Cubs, and was always clutch as a pinch hitter--but he, and D. Pole, and G. Clines, and even Larry Rothschild--who arrived with so much hype and so many accolades-- haven't shown a damn thing in my opinion.

I can't hide my belief in Baker. Nor can I try and convince anyone else out there that he's a track-proven manager, who's poured his heart and soul into The Cubs, and his desire to provide this cursed, drought-ridden team a championship.

But I will say this--Before you jump on the tired Fire Dusty BandWagon consider three things.

1.) In his first season with The Cubs, he managed a team to within several outs of a World Series appearance.

2.) He's been short-handed each succesive season, the team having been decimated by significant injuries

and, most impotantly--

3.) Who will you replace him with that's available and proven?

That said, I don't believe in the coaching staff, and I think that if Baker has one weakness, it's the fact that he doesn't surround himself with the best coaching options to compliment his managerial style.

This seems to me to be the next-best-thing that the Cubs can do to progress out of this mire in the next three years.

Big Win Tonight. Go Cubs--

When your so far down, there's always reason to believe

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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I wholeheartedly agree with this.

n/t

by Al Yellon on Jun 3, 2006 4:06 AM CDT reply actions

why?

after watching last nights game calling why defend this guy?

im not jumping on a bandwagon im just watching the game, there were so many freaking mistakes, i really do believe that players are exicted to play for him but as far as making stratigic moves (good lineups, game calls etc) how in the world can you defend this guy.

maybe dusty could win if we went out a bought Barry Zito, Giles, Tejada, but we dont and we arent going to- even with Lee back we have a team that CAN win games but has to be managed well to do so

im just frustrated that tonights result is going to make people foreget his blunders and all we are going to remember is a very exciting and fun game.

"a sort of soft tyranny of positivity" -GM

by ksucubbie on Jun 3, 2006 8:07 AM CDT reply actions

I agree Southern

On the broadcast last night Brenley had commented that Dusty made the right moves that the situation called for. I didn't see the entire game (only from the top of the 9th on) but from what I saw, I couldn't argue with any of the moves. If you think Baker's in game strategy is bad, look at another diary here that blasts LaRussa. If Baker had sent the pitcher up with the bases loaded and 1 out and the winning run at third to not even swing the bat, the cries for Baker's head would have reached a frenzy.

I would also fire the pitching and hitting coaches. Spier sees ok..an improvement over wavin Wendell.

by wicubfan on Jun 3, 2006 8:19 AM CDT reply actions

you missed the good stuff

On the broadcast last night Brenley had commented that Dusty made the right moves that the situation called for. I didn't see the entire game (only from the top of the 9th on

the majority of his blunders came two innings before

"a sort of soft tyranny of positivity" -GM

by ksucubbie on Jun 3, 2006 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions

Isn't the coaching staff a reflection of Baker?

I won't argue about Dusty's ability to manage the team; suffice it to say I disagree with your assessment. But isn't the coaching staff -- with the exception of Rothschild, which is a big exception -- hand-picked by Dusty and thus operating under his oversight and according to his philosophy?

My recollection is that Wendell Kim -- the worst 3B coach I have EVER seen -- was finally dismissed by Hendry over the protests of Dusty, who fought his firing tooth and nail. To me, the rank incompetence of the coaching staff reflects a managerial style of low expectations and no accountability for performance or outcomes. You can fire them, but if you allow Dusty to replace them -- a right that is typically accorded to managers -- expect a new round of inept clowns to take over the circus.

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Jun 3, 2006 8:34 AM CDT reply actions

This is exactly the reason...

... to replace the coaching staff with men who are not just pals of the manager. That's the way to put together a professional staff -- in ANY business, not just baseball.

As I wrote in the main post, the Cubs did win last night DESPITE Baker's goofy moves. That's what counts, right? Winning?

by Al Yellon on Jun 3, 2006 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions

Winning IS what counts

Since losing is happening with much more frequency this season, it's fair to look at why that's the case. Are the coaches part of the problem? Sure. So is the ownership, the front office, the management, and the players.

I'm curious as to how many teams hire their coaches separately from the manager and have them report to the GM or other front office person in addition to or instead of the manager. If you are saying that Dusty should no longer retain control over the hiring and performance of his coaches, I'm really at a loss as to why the heck he deserves a multi-million-dollar salary, even on paper.

He wouldn't be running a coaching staff; he doesn't reign in the behavior of his team; he has flat-out said that he doesn't believe it's his role to teach rookies; his in-game managing is at best described as "not one of his strengths;" and his ability to recruit good players has yet to pay off in any tangible way. Why exactly does he deserve an extension and another multi-million dollar payday?

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Jun 3, 2006 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions

apologies

At the outset, I didn't want to argue the Dusty issue ... I was planning to just stick with the coaching issue. But they do seem intertwined.

As a manager, I would have the expectation to put a coaches in place who reflected my baseball philosophies and beliefs. I wonder how Dusty would react to having the decision-making on coaching hiring / firing / assignments taken out of his hands. It would seem to be a public rebuke, and I can't see him accepting it well.

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Jun 3, 2006 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions

we did win

despite dusty but why is that ok?

lets get a manager that increases our odds rather than the opposite

"a sort of soft tyranny of positivity" -GM

by ksucubbie on Jun 3, 2006 9:08 AM CDT reply actions

Regime change

I can't believe Al said that.

I'm more in favor of a complete regime change, to borrow a phrase from 2003.

Trib? Gone.

McFail? Gone.

Hendry? Gone.

Baker? Gone.

The Coaching staff? Gone.

Sometimes it's entirely legit to burn it to the ground and start over.

I believe it has reached that point.

"We'll take off and nuke it from orbit...it's the only way to be sure."

by Sidd Finch @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Jun 3, 2006 9:21 AM CDT reply actions

As you are a Baker supporter...

... I will ask the question that I have asked before. What do you think Dusty does well as a manager? What tangible things does he bring to the table? Do you feel that he gets the most out of his players, that he gets them to play the game the right way, that he manages games well, that he instills a good ethic...? It seems that the only thing that people who support Baker say are the following:

He is a 3X manager of the year
He has changed the mindset of the organization
His players love him

I do not find any of the above things to be legitimate reasons and signs that he is a good manager.

So again, aside from the above three points, I'd like to know why Dusty is a good manager. Why do you feel that he is the right guy to manage the Cubs for the next 2-4 years?

DmL

by dmlichte on Jun 3, 2006 9:48 AM CDT reply actions

That's easy

Baker's teams win. Period. He is #30 all-time in winning percentage as a manager which is the same as LaRussa and higher than some well respected managers like Torre, Herzog, Pinella, and Lasorda. I refuse to buy the argument that he had the best player of his era, therefore he should have a high winning percentage. Some of those Giant teams he managed had terrible pitching staffs.

Cub fans have probably seen more bad managers than any other sports fan. It doesn't surprise me then that many fans don't know a good manager when they see one.

by wicubfan on Jun 3, 2006 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions

What exactly

have his teams won? I see 5 playoff appearances and zero championships. Not to mention two of the biggest choke jobs in playoff history.

by pwhalen on Jun 3, 2006 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions

Hmmmm

.... that's five playoff appearances in ten seasons there, and one World Series appearance.

We'd take that, wouldn't we?

In recent years, only Bobby Cox, Joe Torre and Tony LaRussa have done as well or better.

by Al Yellon on Jun 3, 2006 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions

actually

5 in 13 seasons total. One in three (four) here. And San Fran was happy to let him go. Why do you think that was?

by pwhalen on Jun 3, 2006 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions

13 seasons? How do you get that?

He managed the Giants from 1993-2002. Here is his managerial record.

Why did they let him go? A personal dispute between him, Brian Sabean, and Peter Magowan.

by Al Yellon on Jun 3, 2006 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions

13 seasons? How do you get that?

Gee, let me think Al. 10 with the Giants, plus three with the Cubs is, I'm fairly certain, 13. Or are you using the new math on me?

I love to know why you think he is a good manager. What his strengths supposedly are. Personally, I tend to think the only thing he is good for is entertainment value (dumbass comments like all walks do is clog the bases, or comparing steroid testing to McCarthyism).

Unfortunately, it looks like they are set on resigning him so I guess it's good that at least a few people will be happy about it.

by pwhalen on Jun 3, 2006 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions

Sorry...

... I was originally referring to the playoff berths and one pennant in his ten Giants seasons.

In those 13 seasons, four are losing years. In all of the other nine, his teams have won at least 86 games.

He wins. Isn't that the bottom line of managing? Winning?

by Al Yellon on Jun 3, 2006 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions

NO

enough with this crap "his teams win..."

What specifically do you feel that Dusty does as a manager? A manager has specific responsibilities. To me, he does most of them quite poorly. I can detail what he does not do well. I want a Dusty supporter to tell me what he has done well as the Cubs manager.

DmL

by dmlichte on Jun 3, 2006 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions

agreed

he doesnt win for us, period

"a sort of soft tyranny of positivity" -GM

by ksucubbie on Jun 3, 2006 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions

2 winning seasons

for the Cubs in a row is more than many, many other managers have done. The bottom line is to win games. Whether you make the right double switch, pull the pitcher at a certain time, or play this or that player on a given day are all debatable points. If you think you have the monopoly on knowing the right call to make in all of those situations, maybe you should be managing the Cubs. The bottom line is winning. I couldn't care less if the fan in the stands thinks Baker didn't pull the starter soon enough as long as the Cubs win. Which would you rather have?

Baker has a .537 winning percentage as a manger going into this year. I'm pretty sure the Cubs haven't approached that winning percentage in the last 20 years.

As far as the 2 biggest chokes in playoffs/world series, I beg to differ. The '02 Giants were not overwhelming favorites to win that series. They were not even overwhelming favorites to beat Tony LaRussa's Cardinals in the NLCS, yet Baker got them there. No one in their right mind had the '03 Cubs within 5 outs of winning the National League, so how exactly are these chokes?

If you want real chokes, look no further than LaRussa. The 1990 Oakland Athletics who WERE overwhelming favorites to win the world series and were SWEPT by the Reds. Or how about 1988 when LaRussa's A's were overwhelming favorites to win the series and were beaten 4-1 by a much undermanned LA Dodgers team.

Go ahead, tell me winning percentage doesn't matter..

by wicubfan on Jun 4, 2006 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions

They...

will not, or can not tell you why he is a good manager. That is why when this question is posed, it always goes unanswered.

I do not want to argue with Al or any of the other Dusty supporters. I just want them to explain to me what makes him a good manager and why he should be kept on.

by timeforachange on Jun 5, 2006 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions