Open Thread: Cubs vs. White Sox, Saturday 7/1, 12:20 CT

by Al on Jul 1, 2006 9:20 AM CDT in Game Threads Comment 207 comments

This story has nothing to do with the Cubs, but if you haven't heard:

Jose Canseco returned to baseball Thursday when he agreed to a contract with the independent San Diego Surf Dawgs, planning to be their designated hitter and -- get this -- pitch.

The Golden Baseball League announced the deal Thursday night, saying the former AL MVP and Rookie of the Year will make his Surf Dawgs debut Monday night on the road against the Chico Outlaws.

Beyond the utter absurdity of this whole idea -- Canseco turns 42 tomorrow and hasn't played in five years -- I might be able to get some pretty good scoops on this. Why? Well, I happen to know a guy who's playing for the Surf Dawgs.

Oh, and while you're on the Surf Dawgs website? Check out who's on their coaching staff.

Today's Starting Pitchers


G. Maddux Cubs	vs.	J. Vazquez White Sox


7-8	W-L	8-4
4.94	ERA	5.00
56	SO	75
19	BB	24
11	HR	9
vs. Sox	--	vs. Cubs

Remember this game? It was last year's season opener at Arizona. The Cubs beat the living daylights out of Vazquez. Like Jon Garland, Vazquez has been getting hit pretty hard but has a winning record because the White Sox are scoring buckets of runs for him. So far this year, he has won games 9-2, 13-3, 11-0 and 20-6.

Derrek Lee hits him well -- 13-for-38, .342. The other Cub in today's lineup who kills Vazquez is... Greg Maddux, who is 5-for-11 against him.

Maddux has a very poor lifetime mark against the Sox -- 2-3 with a 6.48 ERA in five starts, including a 6-1 loss on May 19 at the Cell. Greg has, however, thrown at least seven innings in each of his last three starts -- all losses.

It's a new month today. Time to stop the losing.

Oh yes, the game's on Fox again. Other Fox games are Yankees/Mets, Rangers/Astros, and Dodgers/Angels, which means that if you're on the East Coast, West Coast, or Texas and other parts of the south or southwest, you're out of luck if you want to watch the Cubs/White Sox.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

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Comments

Looks like a 7-5 Cub loss to me.

I don't expect Maddux to shut them down. Maybe he'll make 6 innings giving up 4 or 5 runs. Cubs hitting seems improved of late so they should get something off Vazquez.

by rlpete on Jul 1, 2006 10:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Very close sir

Nice call.

by grifdog on Jul 1, 2006 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I

remeber when Canseco was supposed to do a book signing at the State Street Borders, they had to cancel it bc he received so many threats. For the record, I didn't want/plan on going, I just read about it.

My money is on Maddux throwing a dud and Vazquez doing really well.

by colossus on Jul 1, 2006 10:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Pagan off DL, Womack DFA

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-cubsmove&prov=ap&type=lgns

by baturkey on Jul 1, 2006 10:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Lineup same as yesterday

Pierre, CF
Walker, 2B
Lee, 1B
Ramirez, 3B
Jones, RF
Nevin, LF
Barrett, C
Cedeno, SS

by baturkey on Jul 1, 2006 11:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

MLB.TV

Not sure why... but I can watch the game on MLB.TV (I shouldn't be able to because of blackout restrictions). Sweet!

"As tempting as it is to bury these guys right now... I just can't do it."

by cubbieblue on Jul 1, 2006 12:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Wow! The same lineup two days in a row!

I wonder how long we're going to be subjected to Nevin in LF. I understand the rationale, but hopefully, Murton will get some more playing time.

by teacher tom on Jul 1, 2006 12:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Smooth first for Maddux

That's been a rarity. Hopefully he's got it working today.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 12:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Nice at bat Juan

You made him throw a whole pitch. That's the way to do it.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 12:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Runners at 2nd and 3rd

with 1 out. How will they screw this one up?

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 12:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Nice!!!

AmRam came through!!!! 2-0 Cubbies!!!!

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 12:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

should be 3-0

Raneriez wouldve scored but they held him at 3rd..dumb move,and nevin strikes out.. hope that dosent cost us

by PrimeTime on Jul 1, 2006 12:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Explain To Me

Please -- why is Phil Nevin our regular left fielder? We are 21 games under .500. Why is Murton sitting out every game?

by bigdaddy on Jul 1, 2006 12:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The only reason I can think of

is that they're featuring Nevin for a trade. Once that happens hopefully they'll play Murton. Otherwise they should just send him down. He needs to play somewhere.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How Much of a Difference

I know the brass is dreaming but do they think that if Nevin hits a couple of home runs that they are going to get some prospect of significant value for him? More like a low achieving double AA player instead of a single A player.
That is just not worth it.

by bigdaddy on Jul 1, 2006 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nevin in left?

Presumably because he's being showcased for a trade. Either an NL team wants to see whether he's a viable outfielder, or it's just the only way to get him into the lineup to let an AL team see him hit. I would hope that Murton would go back to Iowa to get some regular at-bats if the Cubs are really planning to keep Nevin in left for an extended period of time.

by Slats Grobnik on Jul 1, 2006 12:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

While probably true....

I can't believe the Cubs will get anything for Nevin. A .220 1st baseman who strikes out a lot. The Cubs got him for Jerry Hairston after all.

At this point, I think taking away playing time from Murton hurts more than the positive of anyone we could possibly get for Nevin.

by rlpete on Jul 1, 2006 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You've got to love

the caption describing the game at the Cubs website.
"AGGRESSIVE CUBS COME OUT SWINGING". Is this some kind of subtle salute to dusty? "aggressiveness" at the plate is exactly why this team sucks so bad!!

FIRE DUSTY NOW!

So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jul 1, 2006 12:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

WHY DID PIERRE STEAL

Walker had a 3-1 count and was probably going to walk anyway!

So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jul 1, 2006 12:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

They're being aggressive!

:=)

by rlpete on Jul 1, 2006 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It was the right move

Pierre got a lousy jump.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

MLB TV

MLB TV wont allow me to watch the game due to blackout restrictions? This is weird, I've watched all other Cubs/Sox games on MLB TV and live in NC for gods sakehow can I be blackedout!?

by VS on Jul 1, 2006 1:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Argh....I'm an idiot

nevermind.

by VS on Jul 1, 2006 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How many runs has Nevin

cost the Cubs in left? That ball has to get caught.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 1:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Once Again

Not worth what we might possibly get to continune having him out there on a regular basis. He is a DH or part time 1B -- not an outfielder.
Once again, a team that is 21 games under .500 has no business playing a slow-footed 35-year old has been on a regular basis.

by bigdaddy on Jul 1, 2006 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's kind of ironic

because Dusty refused to play Nevin for weeks when the Cubs first acquired him. Instead he put Neifi at 2nd and Walker at 1st, when he should've been using Walker at 2nd and Nevin at 1st. Now Dusty's playing him in left instead of Murton. It really makes no sense. Dusty is so freaking dumb it makes me want to scream sometimes.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Aramis legging one out for a triple....

n/t.

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jul 1, 2006 1:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

this game...

isn't going to be much to talk about, even if this offense continues, so let's pick a topic for today. (How's that for abject pessimism for you?)

"Contenders" such as the Seattle Mariners are starting to give away prospects for marginal improvements to their team.

They did this yesterday when they traded a 20-yo AAA shortstop (B prospect according to Sickels) for a 36-yo platoon utility player.

I'm pretty familiar with this player. He played just up the road from me... and I would have loved to have him in the Cubs system as much as I love Ronny "Ballgame" Cedeno. He's got a much better chance at developing an offensive profile than Cedeno or Corey's little brother.

...and this isn't the end of the Mariners' cache of expendable prospects... most of which would crack the Cubs' top-10 without a sweat.

The Cubs have a number of pieces which could make a difference on a playoff team or a team thinking they're a playoff team.

The list includes Bobby Howry, Scotty Eyre, Scotty Williams, Philly Nevin (don't know why I'm adding ys to everyone's name, but it's my post), Juany Pierre (ok, now that was ridiculous James)... There are more. You're familiar witht he roster, I'm sure.

Ah yes the topic.... How quickly do you want this Cubs team to blow up their roster and start planning for 2007 (08?)? Yes, it means AAA filler would play the games you're paying to see either with your money or time, but doesn't waiting mean you're missing out on the time period where the demand (teams who want your players) and supply (teams who think they're out of it) are heavily in the Cubs favor?

And what do you do with the Dusty factor? Is he really the guy you want managing a AAA team when he hasn't been able to manage a single young talent his entier managerial career? Does he have to go before the fire sale begins?

Let's face it guys... the Cubs need everything except first base... and the help isn't coming from within. Jim Hendry's signings haven't all worked out, but I'm interested to see him put his trading and young-talent skills to work. If he can't come up with a promising future for this team by the end of the year, then it's time to look elsewhere there too.

So let the rantings begin and of course....

GOOOO CUBBIES!!!

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 1:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

should...

I make this into a diary or something instead of doing this here?

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pierre

Even with his rather uninspiring CS... his value couldn't be higher. He had a great June.

.283 avg .352 obp .381 slg 9 sb 4 cs

These numbers would be valuable to just about any team as a leadoff hitter. I haven't been watching him very often lately, but I haven't heard any moaning about his defense either.

Anaheim, Seattle, Boston, White Sox... the list of teams who could use such a player don't end...

He can't be in our plans for next season... why not do something while the price is going to be this high?

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I

I could not agree more!!

So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jul 1, 2006 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maddux

Way to go, sir!

He can pretty much write his own ticket with me. If he asks to go to another team (such as the Seattle Mariners where he could pitch at SafeCo Field), they should oblige him. If another team doesn't offer a lot for him, there's no reason to deal him. He's lost a lot, but he's given us a lot. There's no reason to trade him unless that's what he wants.

In fact, I don't have a problem with him coming back next year as the fifth starter with the way the team's shaping up for next year. Every extra win he picks up in a Chicago Cubs uniform is valuable to me. Regardless of his performance, if he wants to pitch, he can pitch for my team. It's too valuable just to have him in the organization.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 1:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

yeah...

now this I'm going to have to disagree with you on. You're letting your emotions dictate how you would run a business. It's not fair to the fans to operate this way. Maddux is making $9M this year. Unless he's willign to take an $8M paycut (which I am willing to bet $8M that he won't), he's not worth it. Every year will begin to affect him more and more as he ages into his 40's. He's old, and he's certainly on the downhill.

So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jul 1, 2006 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

he's already

given up 3 runs in 5 innings. That's pretty crappy

So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jul 1, 2006 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

as a business decision...

Greg Maddux makes me more money (jerseys baby!) than Angel Guzman, Ryu, etc.... and they'd be doing even worse than Greg Maddux.

He's pitching crappy, but so is every pitcher whose name doesn't start with the last letter of the alphabet.

And the money doesn't matter... even if he takes an $8 million paycut next year, they're not going to put that money back into the team. The Cubs have proven that pretty consistently. Greg Maddux was only supposed to be the fifth starter on this team. He's not the reason why they're losing.

Keeping him in the organization makes it much more likely he'll stay with the organization when his career is over. I want him as the next pitching coach of the Chicago Cubs. I don't want him going to San Diego to do the same thing.

...and if he sucks next year... he'll just bow out gracefully... as a Cub. Call it sentimental if you want, but that's worth it.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Excuses

They Fox guys just interviewed Dusty. He made excuse after excuse for this underachieving team, talking about missing his "main man" Derrek Lee and Wood and Prior. As if that explains why they've lost 50 games before July. Nobody's ever held accountable, everybody just makes excuse after excuse. I hate this team.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 1:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

interesting...

the top five guys in the lineup have 7 hits - three XBHs - through five innings... of course the team still only has two runs.

I can't really complain about the lineup too much... with exception of batting Nevin in front of Barrett (Barrett's the third best hitter on the team if not the second.)... but I would love to try batting Jacque Jones (the team's hottest hitter) between right-handers Lee and Ramirez with RHPs on the mound.

I'm not as in love with Walker at the top of the lineup either as most Cubs fans, because they need his power lower in the lineup and Murton and Barrett have shown more aptitude for getting on base.

All of that is debatable... what isn't is Dusty Baker running the same lineup out there today that scored only two runs off of Jon Garland.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 1:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Walker has power?

I don't think so.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

murton gets

on base far more than cedeno, but more than Walker?! I think not, go look up the stats bud. As far as Barrett, why would you waste his power by batting him in the #2 spot. However, batting Jones #4 is essential considering Vazquez is a righty and Jones DOMINATES against righties. You'd think dusty would know this considering he gets wet just thinking about lefty hitters vs. righty pitchers and vice versa

So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jul 1, 2006 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

in Dusty's defense

Jacque Jones probably would have hit into a DP right there before Aramis could hit a three-run homer.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pierre

another hit..hes been on fire

by PrimeTime on Jul 1, 2006 1:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Get rid of him

NOW!!!

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

AMRAM!!

Did it again!!!

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 1:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

All he needs

is a single for the CYCLE!!!!

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ARAMMM

HES BACK!!! 3 run shot

by PrimeTime on Jul 1, 2006 1:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

woohoo!!

ARAMIS!!!

So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jul 1, 2006 1:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

i called that shot

i was talking to my buddy online. He was giving me crap that I'm still watching this game. I said "they'll score this inning. Ramirez will hit one out". This was before pierre even got on base. Right after he hits it out, i get a message saying "&*%$ you". Oh the love.

by luv4cubs2 on Jul 1, 2006 1:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

ahhhh

damn u maddux...take his oldass out now

by PrimeTime on Jul 1, 2006 2:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

He's a 5th starter at best

It's sad to see him finish his career this way. These last two years have been brutal. But at least he takes the ball every 5th day, which is more than I can say for Prior or Wood.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are you guys kidding me?

There are still Cubs fan who expect better than 4 runs in 6 innings from their starting pitchers who aren't named Z?

Bad for your fantasy teams, yes... but about as good as we can expect. He's gotten us to the seventh inning with a lead. It's now time for our extravagantly-paid bullpen to do their frickin jobs. If Dusty sends him out there next inning, then that's his bad.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

ummm...

and that's apparently what Dusty is planning on doing. I don't know... is he trying to bunt? I can't see the game.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

why

is maddux in, we got a man on first no one out and he cant even put a bunt down

by PrimeTime on Jul 1, 2006 2:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

look...

to the manager's seat for this boneheaded move... maybe the master can make chicken salad out of the chicken poop Dusty just handed him. I really don't want him going out there for the seventh.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that ended in disaster,

but it's really not an awful move. Maddux has thrown under 80 pitches, and he's certainly one of the most experienced bunters on the team. I think most managers would've left Maddux in to bat there.

by Short4Fanatic on Jul 1, 2006 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

GEEZ

ruined that inning, idiot baker shouldve put in a pinch hitter... that inning went to hell

by PrimeTime on Jul 1, 2006 2:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Pierre...

he's even walking... I wonder if he's giving the White Sox his measurements too?

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yup

Why wasn't there a pinch hitter? Madedux isn't gonna pitch the 7th anyway. It's not like the Cubs have a short bench anymore. Dusty is such an idiot.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 2:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I can't believe it

In the bullpen, the Cubs have:
Eyre
Howry
Ohman
Novoa
Williamson
Guzman
Dempster

That's 7 friggin' guys in the bullpen. Maddux gave him his 6 innings. A man on and no one out, he should have been lifted.

I really am seriously begining to wonder if Baker just doesn't care anymore.

by rlpete on Jul 1, 2006 2:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

What a freakin moron

maddix isnt even pitching, and he was batting last inning.... How stupid is dusty?

by PrimeTime on Jul 1, 2006 2:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Maddux....

78 pitches is about the right number for him... please tell me they had some guys warming up and ready to come into this game... maybe make them announce a pinch hitter for Vazquez before you bring out a replacement for Maddux.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Dusty went to the 'pen anyway

So why wasn't there a pinch hitter? One of you Dusty backers explain to me why that wasn't completely stupid. Dusty is a moron.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 2:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm not a Dusty backer,

and I want to see him fired. But it was a bunting situation: the Cubs had a speedy runner at first with no outs, and they were up by one run. That's a bunting situation, where you'd like to push across another run to add to your lead. Maddux is an experienced bunter. He failed this time, but he's an experienced bunter, and Dusty sent him up there in a bunting situation.

The team has quit on Dusty, and this season is a disaster, but let's look at each situation for what it is.

by Short4Fanatic on Jul 1, 2006 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

is the wind blowing out today?

So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jul 1, 2006 2:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

sure is...

mostly just the hot air out of our inept, incompetent, ridiculously overrated manager.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

WHAT????

Please tell me he didn't put Eyre out there to have Guillen put Konerko out there...

no matter what you think about Baker... forward-thinking, innovative... not words you can use to describe him... and the Cubs need a manager and front office with those words on their minds... it obviously hasn't worked for almost a century. It's time to change everything.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yup

Apparently Dusty liked that Eyre-Konerko matchup. He is so stupid it's beyond belief.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

I cant beleive were gunna lose this game...Eyre is getting rocked already...we are potheic

by PrimeTime on Jul 1, 2006 2:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

nevermind

the wind is blowing directly out to center field at 19mph

So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jul 1, 2006 2:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

For the record

Maddux blew it this time ( I only get the play by
play on my computer) but he is THIRD of all active
MLB players in sacrifices. The odds of Maddux being
able to sacrifice the runner where SIGNIFICANTLY
higher than anyone on the bench. Whether he
was pitching in the 7th or not leaving him into
hit in a sacrifice situation was NOT a bone head move

by jessica on Jul 1, 2006 2:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

thank you.

n/t

by Short4Fanatic on Jul 1, 2006 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

well...

who said you had to sacrifice?

This is why I hate National League baseball.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How can you be

a Cubs fan and hate NL baseball? In that case go root for the white sox. NL baseball is much more interesting and fun to watch.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dude....

I don't have to explain to you why the Cubs are my team. There's another thread for that.

Just like you apparently don't have to explain to me why you find NL baseball fun and interesting instead of aggrevating to watch .100 batters at the plate every nine batters and your manager screw up double switches. There's about three managers I'll watch manage NL baseball... the rest are stupid.

I'll take Edgar Martinez and David Ortiz over a pitcher every day.

Paul Konerko coming off the bench to hit a homer is a prime example... National League teams aren't built to win against American League teams. They're superior. It's why they've won the last 10 All star games and are dominating in Interleague play.

It's not necessary to have pitchers hit. They pitch that's their job... maybe they'd be better at it if they spent more time doing that instead of hitting.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The NL style of baseball

is much more interesting and fun to watch. If you play the field you should hit. That's the baseball has always been until they bastardized it over in that other league. It makes for much more strategy. If you want to see fat guys hit who can't play the field go watch the other league. I agree that the AL teams are better, but the NL style of play is much, much better.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

With the wind blowing out

and Vazquez looking very hitable and only a 1 run lead I think you go for the big inning if you can. You know the White Sox are probably gonna score more than 6 runs. Be aggressive. If you have a chance to pinch hit for your pitcher on a day like today you HAVE to do it.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who would you use as a pinch hitter?

Lefties available are Mabry, Neifi and Pagan. You could make a case for Murton, who is 1 for 3 against Vazquez, but he's still batting .234 against righties this season. None of the options on the bench sound great to me.

by Short4Fanatic on Jul 1, 2006 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They sound better to me

than using Maddux. Put Pagan in there if you're worried about a DP since he's got speed and would bat lefty and would be unlikely to hit into one. That's probably what I would've done. But you can't hit Maddux in that situation. Not on a day like today. You can't do it. The white sox offense is too good to play that conservatively.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pagan.

You argued that the wind is blowing out as a major reason for using a pinch hitter, then argued that Pagan should be the pinch hitter because he's fast, although he has no discernible source of power. I'm getting confused.

by Short4Fanatic on Jul 1, 2006 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okay, I'll slow it down for you

On a day like today, when lots of runs will be scored, because the pitchers stink and the wind is blowing out you have to take advantage of every opportunity. You had Vazquez struggling and a man on first with no outs. So you pinch hit for your pitcher since you're replacing him anyway. I guess you could put Mabry in there and hope for the long ball, but I would've probably gone with Pagan so to save Mabry's power for later in the game and get guys on base for the big boys at the top of the order. I'd be happy with Mabry too. Anyone but Maddux. That's the point. You can't play so conservatively on a day when you know the white sox will put a lot of runs up there. Still confused?

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

No, not at all. You've just made things all too clear. Clear as an unmuddied lake.

by Short4Fanatic on Jul 1, 2006 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ugh...

and I couldn't have been more right. You don't feed Eyre to Paul Konerko... that's why you pay Williamson and Howry. Ridiculous mis-management of resources... you can't blame that on Jim Hendry.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

if eyre doesn't

give up anymore runs and we score 2 runs in the bottom of this inning, (and go on to win) does maddux or eyre get the WIN?

So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jul 1, 2006 2:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Eyre

would get the win in that situation.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

interesting

but at the end of each complete inning we would have been winning ever since maddux left the game

So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jul 1, 2006 2:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

That doesn't matter at all

From the baseball rulebook:

WINNING AND LOSING PITCHER
10.19
(a) Credit the starting pitcher with a game won only if he has pitched at least five complete innings and his team not only is in the lead when he is replaced but remains in the lead the remainder of the game.
(b)The "must pitch five complete innings" rule in respect to the starting pitcher shall be in effect for all games of six or more innings. In a five-inning game, credit the starting pitcher with a game won if he has pitched at least four complete innings and his team not only is in the lead when he is replaced but remains in the lead the remainder of the game.
(c)When the starting pitcher cannot be credited with the victory because of the provisions of 10.19(a) or (b) and more than one relief pitcher is used, the victory shall be awarded on the following basis:
(1) When, during the tenure of the starting pitcher, the winning team assumes the lead and maintains it to the finish of the game, credit the victory to the relief pitcher judged by the scorer to have been the most effective;
(2) Whenever the score is tied the game becomes a new contest insofar as the winning and losing pitcher is concerned;
(3) Once the opposing team assumes the lead all pitchers who have pitched up to that point are excluded from being credited with the victory except that if the pitcher against whose pitching the opposing team gained the lead continues to pitch until his team regains the lead, which it holds to the finish of the game, that pitcher shall be the winning pitcher;
(4) The winning relief pitcher shall be the one who is the pitcher of record when his team assumes the lead and maintains it to the finish of the game. EXCEPTION: Do not credit a victory to a relief pitcher who is ineffective in a brief appearance, when a succeeding relief pitcher pitches effectively in helping his team maintain the lead. In such cases, credit the succeeding relief pitcher with the victory.
(d) When a pitcher is removed for a substitute batter or substitute runner, all runs scored by his team during the inning in which he is removed shall be credited to his benefit in determining the pitcher of record when his team assumes the lead.
(e) Regardless of how many innings the first pitcher has pitched, he shall be charged with the loss of the game if he is replaced when his team is behind in the score, or falls behind because of runs charged to him after he is replaced, and his team thereafter fails either to tie the score or gain the lead.
(f) No pitcher shall be credited with pitching a shutout unless he pitches the complete game, or unless he enters the game with none out before the opposing team has scored in the first inning, puts out the side without a run scoring and pitches all the rest of the game. When two or more pitchers combine to pitch a shutout a notation to that effect should be included in the league's official pitching records.
(g) In some non-championship games (such as the Major League All- Star Game) it is provided in advance that each pitcher shall work a stated number of innings, usually two or three. In such games, it is customary to credit the victory to the pitcher of record, whether starter or reliever, when the winning team takes a lead which it maintains to the end of the game, unless such pitcher is knocked out after the winning team has a commanding lead, and the scorer believes a subsequent pitcher is entitled to credit for the victory.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Eyre

would get the victory if the Cubs didn't relinquish the lead again.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

hopefully

Dusty isn't dumb enough to leave Eyre (who never should have been in the game in the first place) to face Dye. So Williamson would then get the win when the Cubs score after a Lee double and an Aramis single for the cycle.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Hendry

..would be a genius to get out from under Howry, Eyre and Jones's contracts and get actualy prospects for them. That would make the money he spent on them to have Dusty mismanage them worth it.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Howry

good job getting out of the inning... I don't like how this sets up though. When the Cubs go on a scoring run right there... they'll have to pinch hit for Howry, leaving Williamson and Ohman for the eighth, maybe Dempster if necessary. I'd much rather use Williamson for one out than Howry.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

JAQUE JONES

I Love You

by PrimeTime on Jul 1, 2006 2:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

YES!!

Go Jacque!!!

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 2:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yahoo

I hate watching this on yahoo... and here in Seattle, I'm being forced to watch Yankees-Mets... fricking ridiculous.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Jones

they really need to get him fit for a Yankees uniform and fast. Maybe they'd give us Philip Hughes if we throw in Howry or Eyre.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 2:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

enough of trading Jones!!

he's here for 3 years so live with it! the guy's a f'ing run producer and I'm sick of all the bashing because of his "fat" contract. he's earning the money so shut the F up everybody! how long is this jones-bashing shit gonna go on??
and don't tell me this is just an aberration. the guy can smash the ball. he can do it another 2 years. I've heard all the f'ing stupid arguments so that's all I got to say.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Jul 1, 2006 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why..

..is it that everyone wants to trade multiple players for one player all of the time. He may be playing out of his ass right now, but I would keep him before trading multiple players for one prospect or player.

vote santo for h.o.f.

by santo for prez on Jul 1, 2006 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

jones AND howry or eyre for that guy??

don't be ridiculous

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Jul 1, 2006 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hughes

Do you even know who Philip Hughes is? He'd immediately be the best pitching prospect in the Cubs organization. Better than Guzman, Hill, Marshall, Gallagher...

He's worth getting out from under the contracts of Jones and Howry. It's a moot point since the Yankees probably wouldn't trade him anyway.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Key word...

..is prospect. Why should we trade a guy who is batting over .300 and driving in runs for a prospect. And moreover, why should we throw in extra bodies to make it happen?

vote santo for h.o.f.

by santo for prez on Jul 1, 2006 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Santo...

In case you haven't looked... this whole organization is nothing but prospects... well, actually suspects outside of Lee and Zambrano.

I have no problem with Jacque Jones. He's the hottest hitter on the team right now.. in fact, I think he could play center on the team next year if he can get his defense back under control. But his defense isn't under control, and he was one of the Cubs' worst hitters for most of this year. His track record says he's not this good, which means he's overvalued to a team who's actually trying to contend this year.

Howry and Jones and Eyre ad Dempster all have more value to other teams than they're actually worth. They're all easily replaceable. Trading them is getting something for nothing.

I'd be much happier with the prospects from trading these guys than the prospects we have now, and it's not hard to find more of the guys we'll be trading.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But...

..everyone keeps criticizing Hendry... There is no way (regardless of his past) that you trade a guy (who is currently putting up these numbers) for a prospect straight up, let alone throwing in another player. If anything you Trade Jones for him and make the Yankees throw in another prospect or two or you don't make the deal.

vote santo for h.o.f.

by santo for prez on Jul 1, 2006 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's get serious here...

There's no point in arguing the merits of a Jones for Hughes swap. In the first place, the Yankees aren't going to trade Hughes, and, if they did, it would have to be for a Miguel Cabrera caliber player, not Jacque Jones caliber player. Second off, there's no particular reason (other than rumored "internal discussions") to think that the Yankees are interested in Jones at any price. I'd like to see it happen, but the most that we could hope for from the Yankees' system would be Steven White or Jeff Karstens, but even that is probably wildly optimistic,

by Slats Grobnik on Jul 1, 2006 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

NNICEEEE

Double play... 3 more outs to go

by PrimeTime on Jul 1, 2006 2:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Cubbies are playing some

defense!!!

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 2:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

It's nice to see the Cubs

out there hustling for a change. That was the third excellent DP today.

by teacher tom on Jul 1, 2006 2:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

If Dempster

blows this save im going to put a hole in my Tv

by PrimeTime on Jul 1, 2006 3:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Careful

Don't do anything crazy.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Update?

Pics if possible.

by grifdog on Jul 1, 2006 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd feel better if they could put at least

1 more run on the board. As it is, I'm putting away all sharp objects.

by teacher tom on Jul 1, 2006 3:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd feel better

if the Cubs had Mariano Rivera. I'm expecting a blown save. That way if Dempster comes through I'll be pleasantly surprised. If not, it'll be just what I expect. That's what I'm telling myself anyway.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

At least..

..he is getting some consistent work. It is pretty hard to be put in this situation every couple of weeks.

vote santo for h.o.f.

by santo for prez on Jul 1, 2006 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Atta boy demp

"As tempting as it is to bury these guys right now... I just can't do it."

by cubbieblue on Jul 1, 2006 3:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Thome?

If I was Ozzie I would not have taken out Thome in a one run game

"As tempting as it is to bury these guys right now... I just can't do it."

by cubbieblue on Jul 1, 2006 3:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

It's hard enough

to keep track of Dusty's stupid moves. Can't be bothered with the opposition.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

screw dempster

grahhhh

by VicVega on Jul 1, 2006 3:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I am now turning off my TV

Ugh.

by cubsbak on Jul 1, 2006 3:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

This

Un*** Beleiveable

by PrimeTime on Jul 1, 2006 3:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

shocking- not.

dumpster is GARBAGE. anybody wanna talk about HIS stupid contract??

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Jul 1, 2006 3:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

It's crazy...one side picks it up...

And the other side lets us down.

Maddux, Eyre, and now Dempster, have all screwed the pooch badly today.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pierzynski no less...

Wow. Just wow.

Dempster's days as closer might be coming to an end.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 3:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Poor Dempster..

..if only he was in save situations more often. YEAH, RIGHT.

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on Jul 1, 2006 3:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I have to agree...Dempster has lost it...

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dempster has blown..

..5 of his last 10 save oppertunities while Joe Borowski has 1 blown save in 16 oppertunities the entire season. Go figure.

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on Jul 1, 2006 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I saw Joe interviewed after the win yesterday

Still sweats like no one I have ever seen
I still love the guy and am glad to see him
doing great. Somebody has to win and he is
one of the good guys
Not much left of the season for me except to
watch individual players I like and root for and
against teams ( Go Tigers, Red Sox & Twins)

by jessica on Jul 1, 2006 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Me too..

..ya can't help but root for a guy like JoBo. He goes out and pitches on sheer nerves and gets the job done. Oh and he makes $4 million less than the Cub "closer." I hope he is enjoying a good laugh over this latest Dempster meltdown.

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on Jul 1, 2006 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

c'mon pat

there IS a reason to throw garbage on the field right now. all the reason in the world!!! throw trash at the DUMPSTER that is our pathetic closer.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Jul 1, 2006 3:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

if i were there

id be trashing the field too

by VicVega on Jul 1, 2006 3:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm at a loss.

We were ONE OUT away from taking this one home...Dempster manages to do it yet again...Dammit. Just, dammit.

"That would be a home run, if it were in a phone booth!" -H. Caray

by riggs on Jul 1, 2006 3:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

dshywr

one PITCH

we had two strikes before the walk

by VicVega on Jul 1, 2006 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're right

I was too busy loudly cursing to remember the count...(sigh)

"That would be a home run, if it were in a phone booth!" -H. Caray

by riggs on Jul 1, 2006 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

CAN IT BE ANY COOLER THAN THAT?

My life is complete now.

by mjc on Jul 1, 2006 3:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

41,000 tickets sold

BaaaaaHaaaawwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!

by mjc on Jul 1, 2006 3:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Now

he gets the third out. 5th blown save. Thanks LaTroy I mean Ryan.

by kessinger on Jul 1, 2006 3:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Easy to see

which team is the better one. I think 100 losses is not out of the question.

"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will

by eswan9 on Jul 1, 2006 3:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

You're kidding me

Due to the sheer incompetence of this organization, we (Tigers fans) are getting NO HELP this weekend. It is astonishing that an organization can have so much money to work with and so little idea of what to do with it. Complete morons. Amazing. If I did my job as badly as Baker and Hendry do theirs, I would be out on the street. Pathetic. Fucking pathetic. Baker is a dumb asshole who doesn't know the first thing about how to do his job. Fuck this shit!

by nuncheon on Jul 1, 2006 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

here here, buddy.

go tigers!

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Jul 1, 2006 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you're kidding me

Couldn't agree more nuncheon. Just a pathetic organization. Dusty and his whole coaching staff needs to go.

by dkateeb on Jul 1, 2006 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

blow me

go fuck yourself tigers fan, we gave you three straight so quit your bitching

"The Cubs are due in Sixty-Two" - Ernie Banks

by TimeForChili on Jul 1, 2006 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

all's fair

c'mon detroit dan, cubs couldn't do the sox any favors either.

by cnobody on Jul 1, 2006 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

all's fair?

All's fair? Bullshit!! The Sox get to play these shitbirds 6 times! Are you fucking kidding me?! It's horseshit.

by nuncheon on Jul 1, 2006 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are just pissed..

..because the Tiger's defense showed you signs of what is to come and you want the Cubs to bail you out.

vote santo for h.o.f.

by santo for prez on Jul 2, 2006 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What are the chances

that Jenks blows the save? I'd say next to nil.

by kessinger on Jul 1, 2006 3:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Hey now

Let's get our rally caps on... this game ain't over yet... we have three guys who can do some damage coming up

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 3:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Would you trade

Dempster back to Fla for Joe Borowski who has 15 saves? I would bet they wouldn't rade!

by Ernieboy on Jul 1, 2006 3:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I hate this team

I should have known that Dempster was going to blow this. What do we have another 2 years with this guy? What a pathetic organization!!

by dkateeb on Jul 1, 2006 3:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Borowski has 15 saves???

Wow, another brilliant move by Hendry.

"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will

by eswan9 on Jul 1, 2006 3:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The only upside

Is that I didn't have to listen to Joe Buck's verbal diarrhea while watching this stinker of a game.

"That would be a home run, if it were in a phone booth!" -H. Caray

by riggs on Jul 1, 2006 3:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Nice game..

..ARam.

vote santo for h.o.f.

by santo for prez on Jul 1, 2006 3:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

BOYCOTT

People-if you haven't already-STOP GOING TO THE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JOIN THE BOYCOTT NOW!!!!
http://www.petitiononline.com/SellCubs/petition.html

There is no other solution. EVERYONE NEEDS TO GO-TRIB, MACFAIL, HENDRY, BAKER, and most of the players.

by wyatttripps on Jul 1, 2006 3:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

That is why I think

this team should lose 100 games. Only then will changes, hopefully for the better, will be made. I am sick of Dusty Baker, and I do not think he is the Mgr for this team. Even Riggleman would be better IMHO.

"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will

by eswan9 on Jul 1, 2006 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

does

anyone know where i can find cheap tickets? :)

So we're stuck in a slump, it's only been a century...

by Old Style Heavy on Jul 1, 2006 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And that's

what a real closer does. Three up and three down in the ninth.

by kessinger on Jul 1, 2006 3:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

And that's a White Sox winner!

nyuk, nyuk. Keep fillin' that crackerbox, guys.

by mjc on Jul 1, 2006 3:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Another

sympathetic WS fan. We appreciate your sympathy. No really we do.

"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will

by eswan9 on Jul 1, 2006 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

AJ

Yes. Force of nature.

by the wolf on Jul 1, 2006 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you guys deserve this treatment

because of all the ass kissing the papers give yuo and all the and the bandwagonjumper celebs. Bite us White Sox people. All of us.

by mjc on Jul 1, 2006 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ha ha ha

The Mets just brought Billy Wagner into a five run game and he might have just hurt himself... covering first base. Maybe now they could use Dempster?

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2006 3:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

how can ANY of you losers

attend cubs games these days??? tell me AL, why don't you sell your season tickets and give it up already?? anybody who goes to that fucking place and gives them your money is a beyond a sap.
you should all be ashamed of yourselves. and this coming from a 20-year fan. I've had enough. I go to a game once a year but that's it for me until a new ownership/front office.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Jul 1, 2006 3:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Poor Ron.

He sounds so sad. He sounds like I feel.

Nice game Aramis, indeed. Too bad it's every man for himself.

by jhj on Jul 1, 2006 3:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Hey Dempster Apologists..

..whatcha got to say now socalbob, faith plus 1, johnny callison was a cub, BCB site administrator? The truth hurts.

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on Jul 1, 2006 3:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Incompetence

How would not going to Cubs games help anything? That is a completely misguided idea, that if the fans would just stop supporting the team they would end up doing better. Whoever says that doesn't know the first thing about A, why the Cubs are bad in the first place and B, baseball economics in general. Unless you were joking. Were you joking?

by nuncheon on Jul 1, 2006 3:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

No kidding...

Teams that don't have any money due to lower revenue tend to not spend more money.

I believe upper management is aware, and they do care, contrary to popular opinion, they just need to get the right people in charge to build a better ballclub.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The wrong people start with McFail

When the Cubs stop making $$ -- or, realistically, start taking in a little bit less $$ -- then and only then will the Powers That Be make changes, starting with McFail. Since shit rolls downhill, that means the end of Hendry and Dusty as well.

Every dollar you hand over to the schmucks at Wrigley preserves the College of Clowns for another day.

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Jul 1, 2006 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rubbish...

Less money means they give us the line: "we'd like to spend like the big boys but nobody's coming to the park anymore so we have to pare back payroll this year and tighten our belts and hope our young guys produce."

Not one corporate-minded ownership spends more money when they bring in less money.

What you are saying is total nonsense.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wrong

The White Sox team is where they are because their fans demanded a winner.

The Cubs fill their park no matter what- there is zero incentive to win.

Turnstile attendance is already down this year, and after this series will likely continue to dip. The Trib is already not going to have as much Cub revenue as it's had the past few years. In a huge market like Chicago, you can't simply say "oh well, we'll lower payroll." The media would hand them their head on a platter.

The Trib will either pump up the payroll or sell the team.

by Matt Allison on Jul 1, 2006 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are you kidding?

The White Sox are where they are because the fans demanded a winner? Give me a break. You wish that was true. White Sox fans are the most bandwagon-riding pieces of shit ever. They are, by and large, idiots. I've seen countless White Sox fans with World Championship shit all over their cubicles/cars/bodies who didn't ever mention the team a single fucking time before the championship. That fan base is arrogant, trashy, and, all too often, physically violent. A bunch of fucking trogodytes.

You didn't deserve shit. Last year you were one of the luckiest teams ever, and this year, though you're legitimately better, you're getting all the breaks. Don't give me this shit about the great, loyal fan base who "demanded" a winner. That is a fantasy.

You threw the world series. If there was ever a club who deserved to be cursed it is the shitsox. To hell with those assholes.

by nuncheon on Jul 1, 2006 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

then why give Hendry that extension?

he's obviously the WRONG person. and they really don't give a shit, by the way, as long as they keep filling the seats. same old story.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Jul 1, 2006 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The decline of Jim Hendry...

Is baffling.

He built a good team in 2003 and a very good one that choked in 2004.

Since then he's been lost. He hitched his star to Mark Prior and Kerry Wood and this is the fallout.

But since he's still here, the only thing to wish for is that he'll turn it around and get back to what he was pre-2005.

One thing's for sure. If he's going to be at the Cubs convention in 2007 and not get lynched, he's going to have to appease Cubs fans by getting some big names in the offseason.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hendry in 2003

He got lucky with the arrival of the young pitchers.
He was given Ramirez and Lofton on a golden platter. No one would have said no.

He has never done anything creative! He has no vision or plan. He hasn't declined because he was never anything to begin with.

by rlpete on Jul 1, 2006 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hendry's decline.

The team in 2003 was overrated. An 88 win team in a bad NL Central. 9 out of 10 years that team doesnt make the playoffs (just like the 2001 Cubs team... same win total, none of the press).

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Jul 1, 2006 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

A 2003 team that got to within 5 outs...

Of the World Series.

That knocked off a 101 win Atlanta Braves team.

If any team was overrated, it was the 101 win team, not the 88 win one.

That 2003 squad ended up being a very good one, especially when you take into consideration that we weren't even supposed to be good that season.

I'm sorry, you don't get within 5 outs of the World Series by being a lousy team.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No one said "lousy"

Strawman argument rears its head again.

No one said the 2003 team was lousy. Not even close. The 2003 team was decent. So was the 2001 team.

You could build an 88 win team every year and would not very often make the playoffs. Perhaps once every 5 years or so.

It isnt that the 2003 team was lousy; far from it.

My point is that if 88 (or the even better 89 win total in 2004!) is not good enough to make the playoffs.

If less than 90 wins is your high water mark every few years, expect to make the playoffs maybe once a decade.

In 2003 the good Cubs team was very well suited to do well in a "short series" as you face in the playoffs. And that is to the Cubs credit, dont get me wrong!

Also, the Cubs month-by-month record throughout 2003 and 2004 was a game or two above or below .500 mark every month both of those seasons, EXCEPT September of 2003, when I think they were 19 - 8.

The Cubs were a good team in 2003 AND 2004 (not lousy), and I commend them for that. However, less than 90 wins as a high water mark organizationally is not a selling point for me on Hendry.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Jul 1, 2006 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The 2003 team..

...may have been an 88 win team, but they were a better team (at the end of the year when it counted) than 88 wins. I didn't take the time to look it up right now, I am going off of memory, but the 2003 team if I remember right was the 2nd hottest team in baseball during the second half of the season (2nd to Florida who went on a tear after McKeon took over). I know that there are 162 games in a season, but that team (the one assembled by August) was much better than an 88 win team.

vote santo for h.o.f.

by santo for prez on Jul 1, 2006 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good point

About the Cubs playing better than 88 wins down the stretch. But really, it was just that September when they were really great. Again, every other month of 2003 and 2004 they were within a game or two of .500.

2003 was alot of fun, and I believed we had a great nucleus around starting pitching for years to come.

I wonder what our nucleus is now.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Jul 1, 2006 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Their Pythagorean W-L

was 85-77, so based on that measure they weren't even as good as an 88-win team.

by the wolf on Jul 1, 2006 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But the 2004 team...

Was a 94-68 team using the same measurement.

Though I suspect you like to view the 2003 team as an 85 win team and the 2004 team as an 89 win team. Downplaying the good.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um, no

The comment to which I replied made no mention of the 2004 team. It was an assertion that the 2003 team was better than 88 wins. By one objective measure (Pythag W-L), it was not. If you can produce an objective measure that can support the "better than 88 wins" argument (other than having one a single playoff series), I'd like to see it.

by the wolf on Jul 1, 2006 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Er

"won" not "one"

by the wolf on Jul 1, 2006 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was saying that the "team"

being the team that finished the season (Aug, Sept) was better than an 88 win team. The team that was fielded at the beginning of the season played to keep them in contention in a tough division that season (Houston, St.Louis). But the team that was 5 outs from the world series is not the same team that was on the field in April, May, June, and July. Thus meaning had they fielded those same players from the start of the season they would have been better than an 88 win team.

vote santo for h.o.f.

by santo for prez on Jul 1, 2006 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My apologies for the lousy stuff...

But you still have to give Hendry a sizeable amount of credit. The 2003 team did an about face compared to what the 2002 team was doing.

And looking at that 2004 team, I don't know that you could have asked Hendry to do a better job.

He bolstered the rotation with Maddux. He signed the best free agent reliever in LaTroy Hawkins (who knew he would implode the way he did?). He swapped Choi for Derrek Lee. He brought in Michael Barrett for peanuts. He brought in Todd Walker to boost second base.

He made the big move by trading Alex Gonzalez and netting Nomar Garciaparra, a move of a sizeable magnitude, the kind the Cubs never do.

That team to me, on paper, was a 90+ win team. How it didn't happen is more of a testament to the toll of injuries (Prior and Wood weren't labelled as they are now, so Hendry gets a pass for 2004 in that regard) that year, and how the team was mismanaged by Dusty down the stretch and allowed to implode, not to mention the precipitious decline of Sosa's game, which killed us.

That 2004 team is more of a heartbreak to me than 2003 as that 2004 team had a bomb squad for a lineup and a pitching staff, when healthy, that was the envy of baseball.

But 2004 I don't fault Hendry for in terms of roster construction. That team should have won.

And your argument about how an 88 or 89 win team rarely makes the postseason is incorrect.

Since 1996, eleven teams have gone to the postseason with less than 90 wins, and a number more right at 90 wins. So it does happen, not just every five years or so, but virtually every season. And I expect that as revenue sharing continues to kick in and more teams get to keep their marquee players, that that number will GROW and 90 wins will become the new 95.

And am I saying Hendry should be given carte blanche for building two teams that won just under 90 games?

No, like I said, for the result of the past two seasons, he should be let go.

But he has shown he can go out and get the players we need to be successful. That 2003 team went from a 67 win team to an 88 win team in one year, no small achievement. Hendry then built on that 2003 team and made it, on paper, what should have been a great team in 2004.

He has shown he can get us the players. And since all the grousing and complaining from us isn't going to get him fired, and he's going to be here for at least another offseason, I want him to go back to what he was doing in 2003 and 2004, even if the best we can hope for is another 88-89 win team.

It's better than what we're dealing with now. And more than likely, these days anyway, it will net us the postseason.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree with most of the above.

As for the 88 win total not making the playoffs often comment, here is where I came up with that. Looking specifically at the Cubs division and the National League wild-card, I went back to 1996 and determined how many times with 88 wins the Cubs would have either been the Division Winner or the Wild-Card.

In that 10 year period, the Cubs with 88 wins would have made the playoffs 2 times outright, and one time would have tied the Cardinals with 88 wins for the Division, so potentially could have made the playoffs that year as well. Let's call it 2.5, shall we?

But I totally agree with you about the 2004 team being the real killer. That was the window... 2003 came out of no-where... 2004 was the killer...

But remember, the Cubs arent winning 88 games every year... in that time period the Cubs won over 90 games 1 time (1998), won 89 games 1 time (2004) and won 88 games 1 time (2003).

And here I will admit my math skills cannot take me to the next level... but... in other words, the Cubs PEAK season essentially has to dovetail with a DOWN year for the league and division.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Jul 1, 2006 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whoops! Sorry 2001 cubs

Obviously I forgot the 2001 Cubs team, which also won 88 games.

So, from 1996 - 2005, Cubs won 88 or more games 4 times (folks, hate to say it, but these ARE the Cubs glory years, at least since the 1940's, think about it).

In that same time period, the made the playoffs twice.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Jul 1, 2006 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

A good point...

We need to set our sights higher than that, and I think we do.

I'd like, the year we win it all, to go triple digits and steamroll everybody.

That's how I want it done.

But if it means an 88 win team, just squeaking into the postseason and winning a game 5 and two game sevens, well, I'll probably have white hair or no hair by then, but I'll take it.

And I think we can, if we're smart, get back to 88-90 win levels as soon as next year.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wasn't 1984 somewhere between..

..the 1940s and 1995? I didn't take the time to look this up but didn't we win like 97 games that year and have a 2-0 lead over SanDiego in the playoffs. Granted, we shouldn't be satisfied with anything less than a championship but I would think that that season would constitute a glory year.

vote santo for h.o.f.

by santo for prez on Jul 1, 2006 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

But if you were born in 1976 (like I was), or you were born in 1946 (like my father), you have seen the Cubs be successful (ie., make the playoffs) essentially the same number of times. In fact, the exact same number of times.

So, I guess what I meant was, as bad as the last 25 years have been, looking at it from, say, the perspective of my dad, or Al, etc., it's actually been better than what came before. Scary as that is.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Jul 1, 2006 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He built an 88-win team in 2003

That got to the playoffs because Prior carried them there on his back. Yeah, that Prior. Wood had an ERA of 1.00 in September that year. Starting pitching got them to the playoffs. And Sammy Sosa, the guy we ran out of town just like we're going to run Prior and Wood out of town with jokes about their vaginas, didn't hurt either.

Hendry doesn't have a plan or a vision for this team. He careens between wanting good clubhouse guys; wanting speedy guys; wanting a small-ball team. That's why this team is such a disaster. He only sees trees, not the forest.

He doesn't know the meaning of OBP. If it's not spelled DONUTS, he's not interested.

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Jul 1, 2006 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

YES!!!!

That is my biggest problem with the team under Hendry. Ok, I accept that after 2003 the theme was starting pitching and then build around that. Didnt happen in 2004 but there was a theme. Now, not so much.

After 2004 there has been no theme. The starting pitching has been in the lower half of the league... we have veterans, we have FA's, we have rookies, we have... no plan.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Jul 1, 2006 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Say what you will...

But Hendry built solid teams in 2003 and 2004. Postseason caliber teams, winning ballclubs.

I agree that since then he's been mostly poor, but I do have hope he'll get it turned around.

And honestly, what is our choice but to have hope?

And I don't think it is misguided because this team has won under Jim Hendry's stewardship.

Would I prefer he were fired? Of course. This is not an endorsement of Jim Hendry as GM. But seeing that he's going to be here for awhile longer, I'd just as soon have him turn it around and we start winning next year, rather than HOPE HE FAILS AGAIN, just so I can have the ridiculous satisfaction of ripping him on a message board.

We need Jim Hendry to get it turned around because he's not going to be fired anytime soon.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Felix...

See my above... I agree, the Cubs had good teams in 2003 and 2004. Absolutely.

BUT, for example, those would have been considered down years (in terms of win total) for the Cardinals.

I am not ripping Hendry so much (I liked alot of his off-season moves and was solidly behind him on the bull-pen help and getting Pierre... wish he would have picked up a starter though) as the idea that peaking at less than 90 wins should be the extent of our expectations. That's all.

That's a fine ball-club, and coming on the heals of 90 + loss seasons in 2001 and 2002, very welcome.

However, those sorts of win totals are not (very often) post-season level baseball.

That is not an opinion, that's a verifiable fact. Less than 90 wins does not often equate to a post-season berth (yes, I know the Padres last year were much worse... but for every Padres, there is an Indians like team, 90 + wins, that doesnt make it).

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Jul 1, 2006 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

NL..

My post above pretty much mirrors a lot of what you're saying.

We really are quite close in agreement.

And I do agree that our expectations shouldn't be just 90 wins, but above and beyond.

And I do think Hendry is smart enough to get us there.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you.

Agreed. But I feel Hendry has stumbled in assembling the team around a core component. 2003 - 2004 it was the starting pitching. But what is the core now? I am not sure and not sure if Hendry knows either.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Jul 1, 2006 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jim is up to the task

He's already got his guys scouring the DFA list and the accountants preparing 3 year contracts for their agents.

Then he plans on accumulating the names of anyone having TJ surgery in the past 60 days.

Finally, he'll be getting together with the KC GM and see what they don't need.

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Jul 1, 2006 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The good news

only two more years of watching Ryan. But hey, Hendry got him for 5 mil a year.

Here's an interesting quote from Commander Mctoothpick form crap(cubs).com:

But is winning the only thing?

"Not to me," he said. "But to most people. Morale of the team, hustle -- there's probably a thousand categories. People are going to evaluate you the way they want to. "

Is winning the only thing important to the skipper? NOPE.

That's all you need to know about Dusty.

As long as he escapes here with his "reputation" intact and his taxes paid off.

This whole organization is the biggest embarrasment in pro sports.

by Peoria Matt on Jul 1, 2006 3:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

it's a matter of principle

If I don't like a product, I don't buy it. of course I know why they're bad and of course I know economics. it's been repeated ad nauseam. in this case a boycott will not work, of course. it's just a matter of time, but I for one will not pay another cent.

by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Jul 1, 2006 3:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Ha

I sold my tickets for this weekend months ago.

I marvel that there are still cubs fans going to the game and lapping up this crap.

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Jul 1, 2006 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And that is your right...

Nobody is saying you have to go to games or buy merchandise, it's just that one shouldn't dog people who still go.

And the idea that the team will spend more money with less revenue is just not a very bright one.

They won't.

Not that anyone's going to stop attending games.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who cares if they spend more money?

The Trib is a lousy owner.

They hire incompetents and let them rot away in office.

They spend bundles of money on zero talent. Did you hear about the 11th-rounder the Cubs just gave a $1.3 million dollar signing bonus to? Yeah, that's going to pay off. Supposedly he's all recovered from the Tommy John surgery that HE HAD IN HIGH SCHOOL.

I want them to spend money wisely.

You can insult my intelligence, but I said before this season that they would be lousy. Look it up. What did you predict?

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Jul 1, 2006 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You still miss the point...

Giving them less means they won't spend it. Wisely or otherwise.

It doesn't matter how wise a team is if they don't have any money to spend.

And I said we need better people managing the club, that we agree on.

And for the record, I had two predictions.

If the team stayed healthy, which meant Prior and Wood, I predicted anywhere from 84-88 wins and possibly a Wild Card berth depending on a couple of factors, chiefly the play of Matt Murton and Ronny Cedeno.

If the team was hurt, which meant to me no Prior and Wood, I predicted sub .500 baseball though I didn't factor in Derrek Lee's absence as he's never been hurt in his career, and I didn't see it getting this bad.

And I don't think you did either.

by felixfelicis on Jul 1, 2006 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You and Hendry were counting on Wood, huh?

I mean, really.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Jul 1, 2006 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, you miss the point

spending $ wisely >>>> amount of $$ to spend

Cut $25 million tomorrow from the Cubs payroll and give me Billy Beane. I guarantee that you will not be crying about payroll concerns next year.

Or continue to be concerned about what might happen if Hendry & McFail & the Trib bite the dust. Goodness gracious! The Cubs might have not have $100M to blow next year. They may not have $1.3M signing bonuses for 11th-round highschool tommy john pitchers. However will they compete?

I already spent the time demonstrating to Al that the entire NL has done better (we can argue about Pitts & Montreal) than the Cubs since the Trib took over. I really wonder whether people are Tribune fans or Cubs fans.

The onus is on you to look up the predictions post since you were the one flinging the mud earlier. I remember my astonishment at the predictions then and hoping that people could be correct.

Speaking of which, whatever happened to KSU?

What does not kill you makes you stronger.

by Pa on Jul 1, 2006 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...it does.
Dusty looks like he's going to cry...

"If you can accept losing, you can't win." - Vince Lombardi

by bergs55 on Jul 1, 2006 3:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I can't

feel sorry for these guys. They have opportunity after opportunity to win and they don't. If this poor play and lack of execution was the occasional brain fart it wouldn't be as bad, but it's an every game occurance.
Hey Ryan you're Canadian pretend that you're a goalie on the mound and block the ground ball in front of you and throw the guy out at first and end the game.

by kessinger on Jul 1, 2006 3:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Beat the "Cubs Town" Drum....

...loudly Trib, because it won't be true by 2008 at this rate.

My only question: Did all of the White Sox fans today buy these tickets months ago, or did that many people scalp their tickets? I'd be curious to know.

Have U Ever Been Experienced? Well, Luis has...

by The Luis Salazar Experience on Jul 1, 2006 4:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Sox fans got them from scalpers

Including me in this case ( though I really don't
know if a Sox or Cubs fan bought mine) I always sell my
interleague games to cover my airline tickets
The difference this year I suspect is that Sox
fans where more pumped up and willing to
pay more.
I am pleased to report that the bottom has fallen
out of the scalping market ( I love looking at
Stubhub & eBay) and while the Cards & Mets series
are still tough tickets relatively speaking no one but
an out of towner who is clueless will have to pay
a scalper now. I expect I will eat a bunch of my Sept
games but that is my own fault for not being more
insistant that people who bought the good summer games
took a Sept game with them ( I half did but that was
mainly April games)

Still going to my 26-19 games from 7/14-8/6
I like to remember that I am 3-0 this season so
maybe I can bring some luck.

by jessica on Jul 1, 2006 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would imagine summer weekend games

will continue to do decently, but agree September is going to be a blood-bath for the scalpers.

NLBallClub

by NLBallClub on Jul 1, 2006 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Even if I lose money

Watching scalpers going nuts is FUN.
Like I said I end up "eating" tickets because I am not
aggresive enough in terms of "packaging" and
I always have some hope for Sept which is not
such a good idea
I actually ended up scalping tickets I did not even
want to. Early on I offered tickets to friends, BCB
& others but since everyone wanted the same games
I ended up with a lot of perfectly good ones left over

In my business ( Film) there is the slightly unsavery
practice of "block booking" so if you want to show
LORD OF THE RINGS you have to take some bomb
later. I need to do more of that with my tickets

by jessica on Jul 1, 2006 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs