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Down in the minors

As some of you know from my blog, with the season going on like it is, I look at the minors as a diversion.  

A prospect that some have overlooked is Donald Veal, who I recently rated the Cubs top prospect in my July top 10.  Veal has pitched 18 2/3 scoreless innings after his callup to Daytona.  

Typically there is a learning curve when being promoted, but Veal has jumped the curve.  Veal was taken in the 2nd round of the 2005 draft and was rated the 2nd best prospect in the Northwest League last season by the managers there.  

Anyway, when the Chicago Cubs get hard to watch, don't forget there a guys down in the minors that are working their tails off (for the most part) trying to get a taste of the big leagues.  

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Good news about Veal!
He is, of course, still very young and probably three years away from any help he can give at the big league level. Let's see how he does next year at Double-A.

by Al Yellon on Jul 5, 2006 9:12 AM CDT reply actions  

Expectation Game
Yup.   The Cubs are going to leave Veal down in the minors for three or four years.  He's going to come up, get a small cup of coffee, be hammered at least once (like all rookie pitchers) and then labeled as a failure because, gosh, he's already 25 years old and that's too old for a prospect.  (He turns 22 in September).   Remember, this is not a high school kid who went into the Farm System at 18.  This is a college player and they have to be on a faster track because they are already older.   The Cubs draft or acquire college players and still think that they can take 4 or 5 years in the minors to develop.  With a College player that gives you a 26 year old suspect by the time the reach the majors as opposed to a 22 year old prospect.  

And once again the Cub management will have take potential steak and turned it into compost.  

If Veal really is such an uber prospect, he should be fast tracked over the next season and a half, brought up in September 2007 and played, and given a real chance to be on the team as the last guy in the  pen starting the 2008 season.  

by Frustrated Fan on Jul 5, 2006 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

AGE
You make a good point about Veal, he did come from a Community College, but technically Veal is on the fasttrack.  Moving Veal from Peoria to Daytona so early in the season, is moving someone quickly.  

If Veal continues to pitch well at Daytona, I fully expect him to be at West Tenn late in the year.  

Check out my Cubs Minor League System website: Top Cubs Prospects

by jonpyardi on Jul 5, 2006 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fast Track
The problem is that the Cubs still think of the "fast track" in 1960's players don't go to College terms.   Players that played in College need to be "faster tracked" than the "fast track" if they are real prospects.  

by Frustrated Fan on Jul 5, 2006 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Definitely
His timetable is certainly a few years away, but from all reports Veal has been pretty unhittable.  Stop me if you've heard this one, but Veal's one weakness has been his inability to consistently find the strikezone.
Check out my Cubs Minor League System website: Top Cubs Prospects

by jonpyardi on Jul 5, 2006 9:15 AM CDT reply actions  

That's not uncommon...
... for pitchers his age who have that kind of stuff.

That's why you don't rush guys like this.

by Al Yellon on Jul 5, 2006 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

That always presents the difficult decision
Do you keep a guy at a level where he dominates or push him higher where he may struggle.  

IMO if a guy is doing well you promote him and let the results at the higher level dictate what you continue to do.  

What I hate though is to see guys promoted who have not excelled.  For example Dopirak and R Harvey both advanced a level after very poor years.  They should have been sent back to the team they were on and earned the promotion.  

by CA Cub Fan on Jul 5, 2006 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Nice list but depressing
For those that think the Cubs have prospects to trade for anyone, look at this list.  Not a single Grade A prospect here.  

I'd change it somewhat but agree that Veal might be #1 now.  I'm not as high on Gallagher.  From what I've heard, he has an average fastball.  Best projection might be mid-rotation guy.  Dopriak is off the list for me too.  Holliman appears to have talent.  Good ratios.  

Without too much in-depth work:    

  1. Donald Veal LHP
  2. Eric Patterson 2B
  3. Felix Pie OF
  4. Sean Gallagher RHP
  5. Mark Pawalek LHP
  6. Mark Holliman RHP
  7. Mitch Atkins RHP
  8. Jake Fox C
  9. Randy Wells RHP
  10. Scott Moore 3B

by rlpete on Jul 5, 2006 11:03 AM CDT reply actions  

The Farm System
The farm system is in the crapper, no doubt about it.  We can thank Jim Hendry for that.  

by Mike63 on Jul 5, 2006 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are you kidding?
Look at all the "untouchables" we have! Rich Hill, Angel Guzman, Jae Kuk Ryu, Jerome Williams, Ryan Theriot, Brian Dopriak. . .

Oh, wait. . .

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Jul 5, 2006 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

You forgot to mention
Ryan Harvey and my personal favorites, Nic Jackson and Luis Montanez.  

by Mike63 on Jul 5, 2006 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ryan Harvey
Has there ever been a more highly hyped prospect that could not even get out of A Ball for non-injury problems than Harvey?  I'm sure there has been but he's been a complete disaster.  

by rlpete on Jul 5, 2006 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ryan Harvey
Ryan Harvey is a patented Jim Hendry ballplayer.  Just like Jason Dubois, Brian Dopirak and Brendan Sing before him, Harvey is an undisciplined strikeout machine with holes the size of Roseann's ass in his swing.  But on the bright side, Harvey can actually play the field while Dubois, Dopirak and Sing are DH's masquerading as position players.  

Apparently Jim Hendry thinks the Cubs play in a softball beer league.  

by Mike63 on Jul 5, 2006 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

i watched harvey
take bp in spring training, and i think i could strike him out in my beer softball league (though i have been known to throw some wicked backspin on...). i've never seen a professional player foul so many by pitches straight up into the cage.

by tomas21 on Jul 5, 2006 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hey, you gotta root for Jackson
Here's a guy who was a borderline major leaguer at best, who lost nearly TWO YEARS to injury.  Then he came back this year to play at 3 levels in his quest to continue his career.  Dude's got heart.  So he's no blue chip prospect: he can hit, he had speed (before the injury), he bats lefthanded, and has played all around the OF.  Here's hoping Nic gets a cup of coffee in September, and a better ML career than Moonlight Graham.

by cubzfan on Jul 5, 2006 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Felix Pie
Some of you jumped down my throat when I analogized Felix Pie as a poor man's Juan Encarnacion.  I apologize.  Upon further review, that comparison was too lofty.  I hereby want to go on record as saying that Felix Pie is a poor man's Angel Pagan.  

We now take you back to your regularly scheduled programming.  

by Mike63 on Jul 5, 2006 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wasn't me
I rated him #3 and heading downward in a bad minor league system.  I think he might be better than Pagan but I'm not holding my breath that he'll develop into even a regular starting OF'er much less an All-Star.    

by rlpete on Jul 5, 2006 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Pie
He's young for AAA right now, if he fails again next year in his 2nd year at Iowa, then I'll give up on him.
Check out my Cubs Minor League System website: Top Cubs Prospects

by jonpyardi on Jul 5, 2006 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not giving up
but the shine has dulled a little.  He's still probably a Grade B prospect.  The plate discipline just isn't there yet.  Sometimes that comes but sometimes it never does.  

by rlpete on Jul 5, 2006 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Holliman
I'm with you on Holliman, he is one to watch as well.
Check out my Cubs Minor League System website: Top Cubs Prospects

by jonpyardi on Jul 5, 2006 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

This might have been true.
About Gallagher up until this year I've heard his fastball has jumped in both movement and velocity this year from 89-90 to 92-94.. Which is very exciting. He also is getting hitters out with more than one pitch another exciting piece of info.  Wait for Gallagher

by cubsfan2883 on Jul 5, 2006 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Glass half full or half empty
Don't let the fact that the MLB cubs suck right now taint your analysis of the minor league teams.  The cubs teams have the following records:

Iowa (AAA)      40-44
WT (AA)         43-27 (1st half)    9-7 (2nd)
Daytona (HiA)   35-35 (1st)         9-2 (2nd)
Peoria (MidA)   41-28 (1st)         8-5 (2nd)
Boise (LoA)     6-10

Overall record:  191-158

For a system that does not have a lot of "old" players at each level this is pretty solid.  Some MLB teams keep players on teams that are old for their level and their W/L ratios are much better b/c of it.  The Cubs really don't do much of that.  

True there are not a lot of top of the line stud propects but there is a good depth of talent.  

by CA Cub Fan on Jul 5, 2006 12:23 PM CDT reply actions  

That is pretty irrelevant...
We don't need our minor league teams to do well. We need two or three top shelf prospects, and we just don't have them. It doesn't make sense to evaluate a minor league system based on the records of the respective teams, because that could easily just be a function of a system full of mediochre prospects. A good minor league system has players that project to superstars, or at least solid starters in the MLB. Do the Cubs have any minor leaguers that project as superstars? Not really: possibly guys like Veal and especially Mark Pawelek, but he is still way too raw to count on with any certainty. Do the Cubs have any minor leaguers that project to solid MLB players? Kinda...but again, those prospects are shaky at best, and very few position players have anything close to eye-popping skills. When Felix Pie is seen as the very best position player prospect in the entire system, that is a sign that we have an incredibly weak system, especially for position players. We used to have a much stronger farm for pitchers, but a lot of our best prospects have been traded away, and it seems like every Cubs pitching prospect suffers from two common things which has become a Cubs motif: injury problems and/or control problems.

by CosmicCharlie911 on Jul 5, 2006 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

good point
Just look at what the Brewers are doing in my current home of Nashville.  They focused on their prime candidates, and moved Prince Fielder and Ricky Weeks into the major league starting lineup in a very short time.  The local Sounds have even enjoyed greate success in the standings (though you're right, that doesn't matter to the parent club).  Amazing what a small market team can do with efficiency and direction.

by Cajuncub on Jul 5, 2006 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

and years of high draft picks
Getting all those high picks year after year is what really helped the brew crew's farm system.  The cubs have promoted a fair # of youngsters of late- Marmol, Marshall, Murton, Guzman, Hill, Novoa, Wuertz, and Cedeno all come to mind.  Not all of them have played that well but many of them have been given some opportunities.  

As for the overall records I disagree still.  It does show overall talent level of a system- true it is not a perfect correlation but if you have a bunch of shitty players the records will reflect that.  

by CA Cub Fan on Jul 5, 2006 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fair Opportunities?
Most of the young players that you listed were given minimal opportunities (less than a season) to prove their worth.   And yet, under the current management regime, veterans were given large parts of full seasons to turn it around.  Do you honestly think Juan Pierre would have been given a chance to turn it around after his horrible start this year if he had been a rookie?  Or Jacque Jones?  

by Frustrated Fan on Jul 5, 2006 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why o' why
can't certain people recognize when a young player really isn't very good and is product of the Infamous Cub Overhype Machine.  Sean Marshall is a gifted young pitcher and Dusty Baker is pitching him every 5th game.  Matt Murton is a fifth outfielder type.  Despite this, Dusty played him in 56 of the first 60 games of the season.  Neifi Cedeno is reincarnation of Neifi Perez, only with lousier glove.  Yet Dusty has maintained Cedeno as his starting shortstop.

No matter what, some Cub fans want to stubbornely insist that all products of our farm system are destined to be exceptional major league ballplayers.  Seems to me Dusty Baker, the guy with the anti-youth label, has been solidly vindicated in the cases of Hee Seop Choi (playing in the minors for his 4th organization), Bobby Hill (playing in the minors for his 3rd organization), Jason Dubois (playing in the minors for his second organization) and Juan Cruz (sucking it up for his fourth organization).  Corey Patterson utterly sucked (.254 OBP in 2005 to go along with 168 Ks) and was resistant to change, yet Dusty (and Don Baylor and Bruce Kimm before him) presided over Corey grabbing a whooping 1,700 major league at bats in a Cub uniform.  

Give Dusty quality young players, and he will play them.  But don't sit there with a straight face and tell me all the wondrous virtues of the crap cranked out by Jim Hendry's infamous farm system.

by Mike63 on Jul 6, 2006 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

What are you smokin?
.."some Cub fans want to stubbornely insist that all products of our farm system are destined to be exceptional major league ballplayers. "

And someone masquerading as a Cub fan want to stubornely insist that our farm system can't produce an exceptional major leaugue ball player!

You keep making these bogus knocks on each player and when shown factual statistics that prove you wrong all you can do is make fun of handicapped people and children.  The more you post comments the more I realize that my mentally retarded aunt has a higher IQ than you do!

vote santo for h.o.f.

by santo for prez on Jul 6, 2006 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Furthermore..
...It is not being argued that every prospect is going to be an exceptional ballplayer.  Teams are not full of 25 all-stars.  Your own farm system is a great place to also develop pinch-hitting bench players or fielding bench players.  I am not saying that Ronnie Cedeno is going to ever be an all-star but he is going to be a solid everyday SS in this league.  

There are 9 positions in the field and Ronnie Cedeno will be filling one of those for some team for years to come.  Get over it.

vote santo for h.o.f.

by santo for prez on Jul 6, 2006 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Have Mercy on Me
I am an Orphan.

That's essentially the excuse that you are giving for Baker and the Cubs.  Just as someone who kills his parents can't plead for mercy becuase they are an orphan, the Cubs, who destroy young talent, can point to their failures and say that they were justified.  By the time the Cubs and their "genius" coaches get through with a player he is usually too old to be a prospect and does not have enough MLB experience to be a useful veteran.  

Oh, that's right, your s--t doesn't smell and you are always right.

by Frustrated Fan on Jul 6, 2006 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice argument, but...
The Cubs farm system is devoid of projectable, blue chip talent.  There is not a single other positional prospect to get terribly excited about at Double A outside of perhaps Eric Patterson.

by Mike63 on Jul 5, 2006 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

what about
scott moore, he's only 22, a former top 10 pick and is following up a solid season last year with another solid one this year...whats the word on this kid, could he possibly replace aramis in the next couple years if we did trade him away?

by kylejo on Jul 5, 2006 3:51 PM CDT reply actions  

More on Veal
 Veal is rated #9 on Baseball America's prospects "Hot Sheet".

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/hotsheet/261873.html

by escapegoat on Jul 6, 2006 5:56 PM CDT reply actions  

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