Dusty's pitcher abuse - a numerical study
After Monday night's senseless 121-pitch outing by Carlos Zambrano, many of us were enraged at Baker's pointless overworking of his "caballo". Furthermore, there is ample evidence that Baker thinks this sort of work is good for Zambrano's career. For example:
"If you're going to be truly great eventually, you're going to have to be that kind of person."
To me, this stinks of Dusty throwing his horse under the bus in order to save his ass...However, despite Dusty's usage of Zambrano this year, despite his frightening comments from Monday, and despite his horrible track record of pitcher abuse, i was still skeptical of Dusty's real effect on pitch counts, as i recalled a recent Hardball Times article that claimed Dusty's "abuse" only added up to ~3-4 pitches per start. That article, written by David Gassko, attempted to determine how many pitches per start Dusty's starters were expected to throw:
"Let's take every pitcher season beginning in 2000, 394 in total, with six seasons worth of data, and try to predict pitch counts while controlling for everything in the universe that needs to be controlled for. In this case, "everything" means hits, walks, strikeouts, league, and year. Essentially what we're asking is this: 'Given that a pitcher allowed this many hits and this many walks, struck out this many batters, played in this season, and in this league, how many pitches per start would we expect him to throw?'"More rigorously, he used the following methodology:
"I used an ordinary least-squares regression with Pitches/Start as my dependent variable, and Year, Hits/BFP, BB/BFP, K/BFP, NL, and 'Baker' as my independent variables. The Years were there essentially as constants. Hits had a negative relationship with Pitches/Start, as you might expect, so the more hits a pitcher allows per plate appearance, the more likely he is to be pulled early. Walks and Strikeouts both had a positive relationship, though the coefficient for walks was somewhat unexpected. The most likely explanation is a combination of the following three things: (1) Walks have a positive correlation with Ks, and high-K pitchers will generally be the ones who stay in for longest, (2) It takes a lot of pitches to walk a batter, and (3) A walk are not as costly as a hit, so a high-BB pitcher can still be good. The results of my regression are listed below. All estimates were significant at the 1% level."The results? Gassko's model predicted the "Dusty" variable was worth 3.67 pitches/start. That's not a horrible number, but it is significant. However, i had some concerns about his analysis. Specifically, it seems to be answering the wrong question. The question Gassko answered was basically "On average, how many extra pitches per outing is the result of Dusty being the manager?" I think a more appropriate question would be "For Dusty's stable of 'caballos,' how many pitches per outing is the result of Dusty being the manager?" Fortunately, it is fairly simple to reproduce Gassko's method. In this case, we'll make a least squares regression model for every season during Dusty's tenure with the Cubs (2003-2006), and will use the same variables Gassko used, except we will exclude Dusty as a variable. We can then compare the expected number of pitches per game for Dusty-managed starting pitchers to the actual number of pitches/game they threw. Here are the results (GS=Games started, P/GS=Pitches/GS, Exp. P/GS=model prediction for P/GS, "Dusty effect"=(Exp P/GS)-P/GS. The important number is the "Dusty effect" which is a measure of the pitches Dusty "added" to an average start by a particular pitcher over the course of a given season. Positive numbers mean the pitcher threw more than would be expected given his performance that season; negative numbers mean the opposite.)
| Year | Last Name | First Name | GS | P | P/Start | EXP P/GS | "Dusty effect" |
| 2006 | Zambrano | Carlos | 26 | 2913 | 112.04 | 100.059 | 11.979 |
| 2006 | Marmol | Carlos | 12 | 1174 | 97.83 | 91.621 | 6.212 |
| 2006 | Hill | Rich | 8 | 736 | 92.00 | 89.794 | 2.206 |
| 2006 | Prior | Mark | 9 | 835 | 92.78 | 93.398 | -0.620 |
| 2006 | Mateo | Juan | 1 | 88 | 88.00 | 85.082 | 2.918 |
| 2006 | Maddux | Greg | 25 | 2104 | 84.16 | 94.259 | -10.099 |
| 2006 | Marshall | Sean | 19 | 1665 | 87.63 | 92.944 | -5.313 |
| 2006 | Guzman | Angel | 5 | 446 | 89.20 | 92.243 | -3.043 |
| 2006 | Rusch | Glendon | 9 | 752 | 83.56 | 93.083 | -9.527 |
| 2006 | Wood | Kerry | 4 | 317 | 79.25 | 94.405 | -15.155 |
| 2006 | Williams | Jerome | 2 | 147 | 73.50 | 81.295 | -7.795 |
| 2006 | Ryu | Jae Kuk | 1 | 28 | 28.00 | 73.591 | -45.591 |
| 2005 | Zambrano | Carlos | 33 | 3558 | 107.82 | 101.136 | 6.682 |
| 2005 | Rusch | Glendon | 19 | 1873 | 98.58 | 92.776 | 5.803 |
| 2005 | Prior | Mark | 27 | 2827 | 104.70 | 103.621 | 1.083 |
| 2005 | Mitre | Sergio | 7 | 680 | 97.14 | 93.077 | 4.066 |
| 2005 | Williams | Jerome | 20 | 1890 | 94.50 | 92.750 | 1.750 |
| 2005 | Koronka | John | 3 | 284 | 94.67 | 103.445 | -8.778 |
| 2005 | Dempster | Ryan | 6 | 593 | 98.83 | 97.470 | 1.363 |
| 2005 | Maddux | Greg | 35 | 3099 | 88.54 | 95.416 | -6.873 |
| 2005 | Wood | Kerry | 10 | 880 | 88.00 | 104.668 | -16.668 |
| 2005 | Hill | Rich | 4 | 323 | 80.75 | 92.168 | -11.418 |
| 2005 | Leicester | Jon | 1 | 59 | 59.00 | 84.859 | -25.859 |
| 2004 | Zambrano | Carlos | 31 | 3471 | 111.97 | 99.292 | 12.676 |
| 2004 | Rusch | Glendon | 16 | 1609 | 100.56 | 95.902 | 4.661 |
| 2004 | Wood | Kerry | 22 | 2221 | 100.95 | 100.357 | 0.598 |
| 2004 | Clement | Matt | 30 | 2992 | 99.73 | 100.511 | -0.778 |
| 2004 | Prior | Mark | 21 | 2061 | 98.14 | 101.200 | -3.057 |
| 2004 | Maddux | Greg | 33 | 2925 | 88.64 | 96.904 | -8.268 |
| 2004 | Mitre | Sergio | 9 | 764 | 84.89 | 89.005 | -4.116 |
| 2003 | Prior | Mark | 30 | 3391 | 113.03 | 104.561 | 8.473 |
| 2003 | Zambrano | Carlos | 32 | 3396 | 106.13 | 95.033 | 11.092 |
| 2003 | Wood | Kerry | 32 | 3540 | 110.63 | 104.392 | 6.233 |
| 2003 | Clement | Matt | 32 | 3142 | 98.19 | 97.536 | 0.651 |
| 2003 | Estes | Shawn | 28 | 2591 | 92.54 | 87.428 | 5.108 |
| 2003 | Cruz | Juan | 6 | 571 | 95.17 | 96.335 | -1.169 |
| 2003 | Mitre | Sergio | 2 | 136 | 68.00 | 77.782 | -9.782 |
| 2003-2006 | Total | 610 | 60081 | 98.49 | 97.312 | 1.182 |
What can we glean from this data? Well, there does seem to be a fairly consistent pattern: every year, Dusty picks a horse or two (cough, Z, cough), who he overworks significantly, while letting the other members of the staff take on a lighter load. This keeps the average "Dusty effect" less than 2 pitches per start even though Dusty is really abusing his best pitchers. Remember, this data is already corrected for performance. In other words, although one would expect Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, and Carlos Zambrano to throw more pitches due to their effectiveness, one would not expect their load to increase nearly as much as it does under Baker. Conversely, the pitchers at the back of Baker's rotations have pitched less than one would expect, even when their sub-standard performances are taken into account. The numbers for Zambrano are particularly disconcerting. It seems that, with the lone exception of a "gentle" 2005, Dusty has left Zambrano in for 11-12 pitches more than one would predict given Zambrano's performance in those seasons. That's a lot. Keep in mind that those 10 extra pitches are the ones that will do the most damage to Zambrano's arm. (For those of you wondering how pitcher abuse points are calculated, its the number of triple digit pitches in an outing cubed, and then summed over each start.) If Zambrano were to see 10 pitches less per outing, his pitcher abuse points would be way down and i for one would be far less concerned about his future health. It may be that Zambrano's arm truly is indestructible, and that it can take year after year of overuse. However, a lost season in which Zambrano's team has an atomically-small chance of making the playoffs would be a good time to rest his arm for the future, not to test the hypothesis that it is made of adamantium.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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58 comments
Comments
I don't think that your table..
by santo for prez on Aug 16, 2006 10:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
two good points...
by shawndgoldman on Aug 16, 2006 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roger that...
by santo for prez on Aug 16, 2006 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Table's good to go..
by santo for prez on Aug 16, 2006 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah....
I didn't know people actually used the "diaries" link to look at diaries in the main column... Frow now on, i'll use the header space as a lead in.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 16, 2006 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks great..
by santo for prez on Aug 16, 2006 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
by shawndgoldman on Aug 16, 2006 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent!
I truly hope people take the necessary time to read this and appreciate your hard work.
by Maddog on Aug 16, 2006 11:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The conclusions...
Whether or not that is going to cause arm problems down the line is the question most up for debate...
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
would you care to elaborate...
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The effects
I also tend to think that we do have to look at what Dusty has done the last 3 years in terms of the health of most of the starting rotation. It hasn't been healthy, so what could we then expect from another manager in terms of the usage of the one left standing? Has Dusty used Carlos Zambrano more than, say, Tony LaRussa would have had he managed the same rotation that suffered the same injuries?
I don't know the answer to this question and i'm not sure we could answer it, but I can see the need in 2004 and even the first 4 months of 2005 to extend Zambrano a little longer than average. The Cubs were in the race in '04 and weren't really out of it until August in '05.
Also, with regards to '06, has Dusty's usage of Zambrano been influenced by the injuries as well as the young arms in the rotation who have forced the bullpen to work extra hard? My guess would be no, but I don't much respect Dusty Baker in any way, shape or form.
I believe pitch counts to be important, but only in as much as each player has that number where they begin to become less effective. The strange thing is that were I able to manage a team, even though I don't believe that Pitcher Abuse is that important, I would still probably have my starting pitcher throw less than most who believe Pitcher Abuse to be very important to the health of a pitcher.
Once that pitcher reaches that number, whatever it is for each individual pitcher, and he becomes less effective than the average reliever, you've got to take him out. For Greg Maddux that number is around 80 pitches. For Carlos Zambrano it's 105 pitches.
So, basically Shawn, I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I wonder what we could expect another manager to do in the same exact situation Dusty has been in. There's no doubt he'd have to ride his starters a little longer than he'd like because the bullpen can't throw everyday, but how much more would he let them throw than is the expected pitch count total? I have no idea.
My best guess is that we'd get right back to that 3-5 extra pitches that THT's research showed. I very well could be wrong. I mean, there's no doubt Dusty has used Zambrano more than he should. I figure every pitch over 105 is costing the Cubs runs and therefore wins.
by Maddog on Aug 17, 2006 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
excellent points!
As far as pitch counts goes, i think its something those of us who don't enough knowledge or experience to analyze pitching mechanics turn to. I don't think its the end-all be-all of injury prediction (not even the best statistic, imo). But its the one thing most prime for me to hit with a statistical sledgehammer. Thus the numbers above =)
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
One other note. Big Z pitched in the WBC this year, which is another reason Dusty should ease up on him down the stretch. The season is over. The Cubs are playing for nothing more than, perhaps, Dusty's job. To throw Big Z out there for 120 pitches every start is borderline criminal.
by cubsbak on Aug 17, 2006 12:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That is one thing that I don't like...
by santo for prez on Aug 17, 2006 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I'd like to see is...
That would compare what Baker does to what other managers do; I think it'd be useful.
(Nitpick: you have "Kuk" instead of "Ryu" listed for his last name.)
by Al on Aug 17, 2006 8:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
nitpicky thing...
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the time i collected the data
B.Webb/124/172.3/3.08
C.Zambrano/26/170.7/11.98
B.Arroyo/25/170.3/11.49
R.Halladay/24/170/-0.52
J.Santana/25/169.3/-4.22
J.Smoltz/25/169/-0.66
D.Haren/25/168.7/4.604504999
B.Zito/26/166.7/11.92629676
J.Lackey/25/166.7/4.902247436
C.Schilling/25/166.7/2.844702153
C.Wang/25/166.3/2.882919533
D.Lowe/26/165.3/3.73507006
D.Willis/25/165.3/15.78822251
C.Capuano/25/165.3/0.470051514
J.Schmidt/24/165/9.800771238
It looks like most of these guys are overused. However, that shouldn't come as a surprise, as we have a huge selection bias when we look at those with the most time on the mound.
I hadn't looked at individual data until you asked this question, and that may prove useful. Already, i have an idea of how to improve the model by including age as an independent variable in the regression. That should allow us to factor in the effect "babying" young starters has, as well the effect old age has on the pounding an arm can take.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
rounding above...
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent analysis!
By the way - how did you get the table to work? I've been trying to figure that out for awhile.
by mportsch on Aug 17, 2006 9:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Another interesting aspect...
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's more than that...
Conventional wisdom these days seems to say you need only four, and sometimes only three, starters in the postseason. Maybe that needs to be rethought.
by Al on Aug 17, 2006 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you edit a diary...
If you want to test this, edit an old diary and put a table in it - it should work!
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Under the current software...
Sorry for the inconvenience.
by Al on Aug 17, 2006 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Riding the horses?
by rlpete on Aug 17, 2006 11:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It depends on your definition of "ace"
Now, the cause of Zambrano's extra work doesn't necessarily have to be Baker. It could be a poor bullpen, a lot of young starters in the rotation, or Zambrano himself telling Dusty he's OK and doesn't need to be taken out (and he may be right).
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
remember...
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Greg Maddux - Underused
by JFCubFan on Aug 17, 2006 11:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, that is definitely in there...
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What?
Year Maddux Zambrano
2006 25 26
2005 35 33
2004 33 31
When Maddux leaves the game early it is the RPs who pitch the remainder of the game.
I think Zambrano pitches more innings per game simply because HE wants to, for whatever reasons, and Baker & the coaches let him because it gives the RPs a break.
If anything, I would argue that underutilizing the SPs stresses out the RPs but overutilizing the SPs stresses out the SPs. It is the job of the manager and pitching coach to balance the correct amount of work for everyone, which is the point of your analysis I guess.
by JFCubFan on Aug 17, 2006 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, the bullpen has to make up innings...
I'm not blaming Maddux for Zambrano's overuse. However, Maddux's age has caused him to be used less than a pitcher with similar stats. This may be part of the reason for the data showing the opposite trend for Zambrano.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me get this straight
If what you say is true, then Zambrano will be pitching less now that Maddux is gone.
Please present your analysis at the end of the season to support your hypothesis, professor. However, I stand by my previous statement that Dusty lets Zambrano pitch as long as he wants as long as he is winning.
by JFCubFan on Aug 17, 2006 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
look for the <i>italics</i> above...
Let me try an example:
The Cubs have a game in which the starter, who normally pitches 6 innings/start, has to leave the game after the first inning due to an injury. The Cubs do not have an off-day for at least 5 days. What does this imply for the rest of the staff? Well, on that day the bullpen will pull the extra duty, pitching 8 innings instead of the 3 you'd normally expect them to throw that day. However, over the next 4 days the manager would have to try to use the bullpen less than they normally would in order to make up for the overtime the bullpen arms received in the first game. If the manager has a "horse" on the staff, may pull the horse into their office and tell them, "Look (dude), the pen's tired. We need you to be a horse today. Go get 'em."
Of course, the manager doesn't have to do this. But many managers will do something of this nature. Since the endurance of the rest of the rotation isn't taken into account in this study (nor is the endurance of the bullpen), it is a variable that has to be considered part of alternate hypotheses for describing the data.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right...
Starter 2 goes 4 innings
Starter 3 goes 4 innings
Starter 4 goes 3 innings
Starter 5 goes 1 inning
Over those 4 games that's 24 innings pitched in relief. The average number of innings from the bullpen per game is just under 4 innings yet during those 4 games they pitched an average of 6 innings per game. Like starting pitchers, relievers can be overworked as well and a 4-day stretch like this is a good way to achieve it.
When Starter 1 goes to the mound the manager is looking for innings to SAVE his bullpen. At this point, it's the bullpen that needs more rest than the starting pitcher.
So, yes, he'll throw Starter 1 out there for another inning, maybe even 2 or 3 innings to save his bullpen because the other 4 starters did NOT pitch their expected innings.
Over the course of the season things aren't often this bad, though they sometimes are as was the case with Zambrano's last start after the bullpen had pitched more than the rotation the previous 4 games.
Every out not recorded by a starting pitcher is recorded by a guy in the bullpen. If we assume that managers want to keep their bullpen usage at X number of innings, that out has a direct affect on the other 10 or 11 pitchers on the staff. When 4 guys in the rotation are consistently failing to pitch their expected number of innings, this will have an impact on the bullpen, as is abundantly clear by simply looking at any of the stats as well as the other starting pitcher, which isn't so clear, but is most certainly present.
by Maddog on Aug 17, 2006 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your table
by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 12:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
this table tells us one thing about Z...
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
pitcher abuse
What I will say is that in the past, all pitchers were "abused." That is, until about 20 years ago, the goal of every pitcher and his manager was to go the distance (Roger Clemens completed 18 of his 36 starts in 1987 as a 24-year old) and nobody cared how many pitches it took to do that. The pitcher stayed on the mound until he was unable to get the opposing team out - this was true for starters and relievers.
Under that regime, a lot of pitchers blew their arms out and had their careers end early. The same is true today despite the fact that pitchers are babied (compared with in the past). The rate of injuries now is similar to the rate then, from what my research shows, and perhaps a bit higher (though this may reflect that with so much money being spent now on these pitchers, management is quicker to take them out of action when they feel pain).
If, 20 years from now, you can show me proof that this babying of pitchers ended up resulting in far fewer careers ruined and far fewer trips to the DL, then great. I'll shut up. But for now, after about a decade of watching pitch counts and seeing starters pulled early to "save" their arms, I see no evidence that injury rates have fallen compared with historic levels. And the game has suffered. We haven't had a no-hitter in more than 2 years (perhaps because most pitchers can't throw 9 innings anymore). We're subjected to 1-0 games that take nearly three hours to play and feature 8 pitching changes. I can't see how that's good for baseball.
by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 1:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Good points
by rlpete on Aug 17, 2006 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you too Danimal
by wicubfan on Aug 17, 2006 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
In fact, in 1971 there were only 6 guys who averaged more than 100 pitches per start. In 2000 there were 54 guys who average more than 100 pitches per start. There were 34 such guys in 2005.
by Maddog on Aug 17, 2006 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but that's also why...
If you were to show me data that pitch counts have gone down dramatically over the past 50 years, you'd begin to convince me that we're all worry-warts and that the old timer's have shown arms can withstand more punishment than we think.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
However, it is undeniably true that in certain games and with certain pitchers, pitch counts were indeed much higher in the 1970s then today.
For example, in one 1974 game, Nolan Ryan pitched 13 innings, during which he struck out 19 batters and walked 10. A conservative estimate is that he threw over 200 pitches in this game (most of them fastballs, of course).
Another thing to take into account is that Nolan's 13-inning appearance wasn't all that remarkable at the time. Indeed, it was quite common in the 70's and even the 80's for a starting pitcher to continue into extra innings (Greg Maddux has done it several times, actually). So it isn't necessarily fair to look at just 9 innings for all games.
According to Retrosheet, in 1974 there were 16 separate starts in which pitchers went 12 innings or more in a single game (with a 15-inning start by Gaylord Perry topping the list), and 16 other games in which a starting pitcher made it through 11 innings. So even if they were throwing fewer pitches per inning, they were pitching a hell of a lot more innings, at least in some games, which adds up to more pitches.
They were also making a lot more starts - it was common for pitchers then to start more than 40 times a year. So if you believe pitching damage to arms is cumulative, then that has to be taken into account - obviously a pitcher starting 41 games instead of the top mark of 33 or so achieved today would throw a lot more pitches over the course of a season, even if in his average game he threw fewer than 100.
by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dusty would not have to "abuse" Z
I really don't know how you can hold him responsible
for that , it is definately a huge orginizational flaw
Most Cub starters are adding at least 20 pitches per start
with their insane number of walks. FYI with Maddux who
has the fewest walks in the NL gone, the Cub numbers
are going to SHOOT up on this.
by jessica on Aug 17, 2006 1:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the spirit of this post...
However, i do agree that the Cubs have to cut down on their walks. I think its even more important than drawing more walks (which to me is a close 2nd in general recommendations for the team).
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
It also annoys me when they get to 2 outs quickly and they need a million pitches to get the last guy out or can't get him and the inning continues.
A lot of things annoy me.
by sparkles721 on Aug 17, 2006 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitching efficiency
This is really an argument for pitching efficiency. The key metric should be P/IP. I think it is universally agreed that, in today's game, effective starting pitching should ideally provide 7 IP per game. Since all managers would thus be trying to coax at least 7 IP out of their starter, managers that manage staffs consisting of inefficient pitchers would be more likely viewed as abusing their pitchers than ones that manage efficient staffs. I ran some numbers and found them quite interesting:
Pitcher 2003 P/IP Career
Wood 16.8 16.6
Prior 16.1 17.0
Zambrano 15.9 16.5
Clement 15.6 16.4
Pitcher Career P/IP
Livan Hernandez 16.2
Shawn Estes 16.6
Russ Ortiz 17.2
Curt Schilling 15.3
Roger Clemens 14.5
Mark Buehrle 15.0
Randy Johnson 16.4
Johan Santana 15.5
Roy Halladay 14.8
Greg Maddux 13.4
Brad Penny 15.8
Clearly, though Prior, Wood, and Zambrano are (were) top pitchers, they are not nearly as efficient with their pitches as other top pitchers. This creates a huge dilemma for the manager, because their dominance is limited due to shorter outings. I also included other top pitchers managed by Dusty while with the Giants, and they are inefficient as well. Rather than fire Dusty because he lets pitchers throw too many pitches, I think we would be better served by signing/developing pitchers that are much more efficient.
by Jeff Pico on Aug 17, 2006 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
those are some interesting numbers...
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about
by Maddog on Aug 17, 2006 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good question...
by Jeff Pico on Aug 17, 2006 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unclear to me...
by Jeff Pico on Aug 17, 2006 2:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If you have MS Excel, you can do this yourself!
P/GS = a*BB/ABA + b*SO/ABA + c*H/ABA + d(function of year) + e(function of league) + f (constant),
and further asked Excel to calculate what a, b, c, d, e, and f are in order to predict P/GS with the least amount of error
Excel uses a least-squares fitting to do this. If you want a more rigorous explanation of what that is you can try this explanation from the wonderful MathWorld.
by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understood it.
Great job, Shawn. Your posts are always very thought out and interesting. Hopefully, you will give us more posts this offseason.
Since I love Z, I'm always worried. Sometimes more than other times because I don't know how the future will be like. I really hope he has a strong arm that can stand anything because I don't want his career to end early.
by sparkles721 on Aug 17, 2006 3:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Z
If Z were pitching in the 1970s, he'd be throwing 25 CGs and 300 innings a year (and winning 20 games a year), and no one would be worried. And it's likely he'd be able to keep it up. We worry way too much these days.
by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
article
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/what-pitch-counts-hath-wrought-part-deux/
by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 4:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
pitch counts
by mike bornemann on Aug 18, 2006 10:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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