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Dusty's pitcher abuse - a numerical study

After Monday night's senseless 121-pitch outing by Carlos Zambrano, many of us were enraged at Baker's pointless overworking of his "caballo". Furthermore, there is ample evidence that Baker thinks this sort of work is good for Zambrano's career. For example:

"I talked to him about being himself and doing what he's capable of doing," Baker said. "To be a horse, to be a caballo, like an iron man under adverse conditions.

"If you're going to be truly great eventually, you're going to have to be that kind of person."

To me, this stinks of Dusty throwing his horse under the bus in order to save his ass...

Star-divide

However, despite Dusty's usage of Zambrano this year, despite his frightening comments from Monday, and despite his horrible track record of pitcher abuse, i was still skeptical of Dusty's real effect on pitch counts, as i recalled a recent Hardball Times article that claimed Dusty's "abuse" only added up to ~3-4 pitches per start. That article, written by David Gassko, attempted to determine how many pitches per start Dusty's starters were expected to throw:

"Let's take every pitcher season beginning in 2000, 394 in total, with six seasons worth of data, and try to predict pitch counts while controlling for everything in the universe that needs to be controlled for. In this case, "everything" means hits, walks, strikeouts, league, and year. Essentially what we're asking is this: 'Given that a pitcher allowed this many hits and this many walks, struck out this many batters, played in this season, and in this league, how many pitches per start would we expect him to throw?'"

More rigorously, he used the following methodology:

"I used an ordinary least-squares regression with Pitches/Start as my dependent variable, and Year, Hits/BFP, BB/BFP, K/BFP, NL, and 'Baker' as my independent variables. The Years were there essentially as constants. Hits had a negative relationship with Pitches/Start, as you might expect, so the more hits a pitcher allows per plate appearance, the more likely he is to be pulled early. Walks and Strikeouts both had a positive relationship, though the coefficient for walks was somewhat unexpected. The most likely explanation is a combination of the following three things: (1) Walks have a positive correlation with Ks, and high-K pitchers will generally be the ones who stay in for longest, (2) It takes a lot of pitches to walk a batter, and (3) A walk are not as costly as a hit, so a high-BB pitcher can still be good. The results of my regression are listed below. All estimates were significant at the 1% level."

The results? Gassko's model predicted the "Dusty" variable was worth 3.67 pitches/start. That's not a horrible number, but it is significant. However, i had some concerns about his analysis. Specifically, it seems to be answering the wrong question. The question Gassko answered was basically "On average, how many extra pitches per outing is the result of Dusty being the manager?" I think a more appropriate question would be "For Dusty's stable of 'caballos,' how many pitches per outing is the result of Dusty being the manager?" Fortunately, it is fairly simple to reproduce Gassko's method. In this case, we'll make a least squares regression model for every season during Dusty's tenure with the Cubs (2003-2006), and will use the same variables Gassko used, except we will exclude Dusty as a variable. We can then compare the expected number of pitches per game for Dusty-managed starting pitchers to the actual number of pitches/game they threw. Here are the results (GS=Games started, P/GS=Pitches/GS, Exp. P/GS=model prediction for P/GS, "Dusty effect"=(Exp P/GS)-P/GS. The important number is the "Dusty effect" which is a measure of the pitches Dusty "added" to an average start by a particular pitcher over the course of a given season. Positive numbers mean the pitcher threw more than would be expected given his performance that season; negative numbers mean the opposite.)

Year Last Name First Name GS P P/Start EXP P/GS "Dusty effect"
2006 Zambrano Carlos 26 2913 112.04 100.059 11.979
2006 Marmol Carlos 12 1174 97.83 91.621 6.212
2006 Hill Rich 8 736 92.00 89.794 2.206
2006 Prior Mark 9 835 92.78 93.398 -0.620
2006 Mateo Juan 1 88 88.00 85.082 2.918
2006 Maddux Greg 25 2104 84.16 94.259 -10.099
2006 Marshall Sean 19 1665 87.63 92.944 -5.313
2006 Guzman Angel 5 446 89.20 92.243 -3.043
2006 Rusch Glendon 9 752 83.56 93.083 -9.527
2006 Wood Kerry 4 317 79.25 94.405 -15.155
2006 Williams Jerome 2 147 73.50 81.295 -7.795
2006 Ryu Jae Kuk 1 28 28.00 73.591 -45.591
2005 Zambrano Carlos 33 3558 107.82 101.136 6.682
2005 Rusch Glendon 19 1873 98.58 92.776 5.803
2005 Prior Mark 27 2827 104.70 103.621 1.083
2005 Mitre Sergio 7 680 97.14 93.077 4.066
2005 Williams Jerome 20 1890 94.50 92.750 1.750
2005 Koronka John 3 284 94.67 103.445 -8.778
2005 Dempster Ryan 6 593 98.83 97.470 1.363
2005 Maddux Greg 35 3099 88.54 95.416 -6.873
2005 Wood Kerry 10 880 88.00 104.668 -16.668
2005 Hill Rich 4 323 80.75 92.168 -11.418
2005 Leicester Jon 1 59 59.00 84.859 -25.859
2004 Zambrano Carlos 31 3471 111.97 99.292 12.676
2004 Rusch Glendon 16 1609 100.56 95.902 4.661
2004 Wood Kerry 22 2221 100.95 100.357 0.598
2004 Clement Matt 30 2992 99.73 100.511 -0.778
2004 Prior Mark 21 2061 98.14 101.200 -3.057
2004 Maddux Greg 33 2925 88.64 96.904 -8.268
2004 Mitre Sergio 9 764 84.89 89.005 -4.116
2003 Prior Mark 30 3391 113.03 104.561 8.473
2003 Zambrano Carlos 32 3396 106.13 95.033 11.092
2003 Wood Kerry 32 3540 110.63 104.392 6.233
2003 Clement Matt 32 3142 98.19 97.536 0.651
2003 Estes Shawn 28 2591 92.54 87.428 5.108
2003 Cruz Juan 6 571 95.17 96.335 -1.169
2003 Mitre Sergio 2 136 68.00 77.782 -9.782
2003-2006 Total 610 60081 98.49 97.312 1.182

What can we glean from this data? Well, there does seem to be a fairly consistent pattern: every year, Dusty picks a horse or two (cough, Z, cough), who he overworks significantly, while letting the other members of the staff take on a lighter load. This keeps the average "Dusty effect" less than 2 pitches per start even though Dusty is really abusing his best pitchers. Remember, this data is already corrected for performance. In other words, although one would expect Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, and Carlos Zambrano to throw more pitches due to their effectiveness, one would not expect their load to increase nearly as much as it does under Baker. Conversely, the pitchers at the back of Baker's rotations have pitched less than one would expect, even when their sub-standard performances are taken into account. The numbers for Zambrano are particularly disconcerting. It seems that, with the lone exception of a "gentle" 2005, Dusty has left Zambrano in for 11-12 pitches more than one would predict given Zambrano's performance in those seasons. That's a lot. Keep in mind that those 10 extra pitches are the ones that will do the most damage to Zambrano's arm. (For those of you wondering how pitcher abuse points are calculated, its the number of triple digit pitches in an outing cubed, and then summed over each start.) If Zambrano were to see 10 pitches less per outing, his pitcher abuse points would be way down and i for one would be far less concerned about his future health. It may be that Zambrano's arm truly is indestructible, and that it can take year after year of overuse. However, a lost season in which Zambrano's team has an atomically-small chance of making the playoffs would be a good time to rest his arm for the future, not to test the hypothesis that it is made of adamantium.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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I don't think that your table..
..worked.  Also, just some constructive critizism....start the diary out with an intro, then put the bulk of your data in the other box so that it doesn't take up so much room.  That way we don't have to scroll so far down the page to read all of the other diaries.  
My Immediate Kindness Eventually Sets Up Cool Kosier Status.

by santo for prez on Aug 16, 2006 10:49 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

two good points...
i'm trying to get the table html to work on the fly. Once i have that, i'll put everything but the 1st paragraph below the fold.
The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 16, 2006 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Roger that...
..it is working now.  I have had a heck of a time getting the HTML format to work on here.  It doesn't seem to respond correctly to HTML codes sometimes.
My Immediate Kindness Eventually Sets Up Cool Kosier Status.

by santo for prez on Aug 16, 2006 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Table's good to go..
.now!
My Immediate Kindness Eventually Sets Up Cool Kosier Status.

by santo for prez on Aug 16, 2006 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ah....
that's better! Table's fixes, headings are bolded, and most of its below the fold.

I didn't know people actually used the "diaries" link to look at diaries in the main column... Frow now on, i'll use the header space as a lead in.

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 16, 2006 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Looks great..
...good info. I haven't gotten to go over all of it yet but DUSTY SUCKS is a definite.
My Immediate Kindness Eventually Sets Up Cool Kosier Status.

by santo for prez on Aug 16, 2006 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks!
This one took a lot of effort. Probably too much... If i keep this up, i'll end up on the DL with carpal tunnel syndrome.
The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 16, 2006 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent!
This is a fantastic analysis, shawn.  I don't particularly agree with all of your conclusions/assumptions, but you did an outstanding job.  This must have taken you some time to accomplish.  I'd be quite proud of this work were I you.

I truly hope people take the necessary time to read this and appreciate your hard work.

by Maddog on Aug 16, 2006 11:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The conclusions...
depend largely on how much one stresses pitch counts or pitcher abuse points as a measure of potential damage to an arm. However, the main point i meant to make it that Dusty works his "horses" for significantly more than 3 pitches per outing - its at least 6 and in many cases more like 12.

Whether or not that is going to cause arm problems down the line is the question most up for debate...

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

would you care to elaborate...
on your disagreements? Are there issues you have other than placing less importance on pitch counts than i tend to? I value your opinion, so would like to hear your criticisms...
The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The effects
of pitch counts to a pitcher is where you and I tend to see things differently as you know.  Other than that, I think you did a fantastic job in both writing this and researching it.  

I also tend to think that we do have to look at what Dusty has done the last 3 years in terms of the health of most of the starting rotation.  It hasn't been healthy, so what could we then expect from another manager in terms of the usage of the one left standing?  Has Dusty used Carlos Zambrano more than, say, Tony LaRussa would have had he managed the same rotation that suffered the same injuries?  

I don't know the answer to this question and i'm not sure we could answer it, but I can see the need in 2004 and even the first 4 months of 2005 to extend Zambrano a little longer than average.  The Cubs were in the race in '04 and weren't really out of it until August in '05.

Also, with regards to '06, has Dusty's usage of Zambrano been influenced by the injuries as well as the young arms in the rotation who have forced the bullpen to work extra hard?  My guess would be no, but I don't much respect Dusty Baker in any way, shape or form.  

I believe pitch counts to be important, but only in as much as each player has that number where they begin to become less effective.  The strange thing is that were I able to manage a team, even though I don't believe that Pitcher Abuse is that important, I would still probably have my starting pitcher throw less than most who believe Pitcher Abuse to be very important to the health of a pitcher.  

Once that pitcher reaches that number, whatever it is for each individual pitcher, and he becomes less effective than the average reliever, you've got to take him out.  For Greg Maddux that number is around 80 pitches.  For Carlos Zambrano it's 105 pitches.  

So, basically Shawn, I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I wonder what we could expect another manager to do in the same exact situation Dusty has been in.  There's no doubt he'd have to ride his starters a little longer than he'd like because the bullpen can't throw everyday, but how much more would he let them throw than is the expected pitch count total?  I have no idea.  

My best guess is that we'd get right back to that 3-5 extra pitches that THT's research showed.  I very well could be wrong.  I mean, there's no doubt Dusty has used Zambrano more than he should.  I figure every pitch over 105 is costing the Cubs runs and therefore wins.  

by Maddog on Aug 17, 2006 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

excellent points!
I agree with just about everything you said here. I simply copied Gassko's approach, which i think was an excellent first stab at this question. I may have done better by including a few other variables, such as age, P/GS for the rest of the rotation, rate stats for the pitcher's bullpen, and perhaps the number of different starters used by a pitcher's team that season (to get at the "rookies in the rotation effect").

As far as pitch counts goes, i think its something those of us who don't enough knowledge or experience to analyze pitching mechanics turn to. I don't think its the end-all be-all of injury prediction (not even the best statistic, imo). But its the one thing most prime for me to hit with a statistical sledgehammer. Thus the numbers above =)

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow
That is terrific.  Very interesting and pretty much confirms what I suspected.

One other note.  Big Z pitched in the WBC this year, which is another reason Dusty should ease up on him down the stretch.  The season is over.  The Cubs are playing for nothing more than, perhaps, Dusty's job.  To throw Big Z out there for 120 pitches every start is borderline criminal.

by cubsbak on Aug 17, 2006 12:25 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That is one thing that I don't like...
...about the WBC.  If MLB is going to agree to let its players participate in something like that, then they need to shorten the season.  162 games is a lot of baseball and a lot of additional strain on player's bodies.  I do like the WBC, just not in addition to a 162 game schedule.
My Immediate Kindness Eventually Sets Up Cool Kosier Status.

by santo for prez on Aug 17, 2006 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What I'd like to see is...
... a comparison between Z and other pitchers who throw as many innings/have as many starts as he does.

That would compare what Baker does to what other managers do; I think it'd be useful.

(Nitpick: you have "Kuk" instead of "Ryu" listed for his last name.)

by Al on Aug 17, 2006 8:09 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

nitpicky thing...
fixed. Thanks for catching it.
The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

At the time i collected the data
Zambrano was tied for the most starts in the majors, with 26, and had the second most IP with 170.7. Here are the numbers for those with over 165 IP, showing name/GS/IP/"overuse"

B.Webb/124/172.3/3.08
C.Zambrano/26/170.7/11.98
B.Arroyo/25/170.3/11.49
R.Halladay/24/170/-0.52
J.Santana/25/169.3/-4.22
J.Smoltz/25/169/-0.66
D.Haren/25/168.7/4.604504999
B.Zito/26/166.7/11.92629676
J.Lackey/25/166.7/4.902247436
C.Schilling/25/166.7/2.844702153
C.Wang/25/166.3/2.882919533
D.Lowe/26/165.3/3.73507006
D.Willis/25/165.3/15.78822251
C.Capuano/25/165.3/0.470051514
J.Schmidt/24/165/9.800771238

It looks like most of these guys are overused. However, that shouldn't come as a surprise, as we have a huge selection bias when we look at those with the most time on the mound.

I hadn't looked at individual data until you asked this question, and that may prove useful. Already, i have an idea of how to improve the model by including age as an independent variable in the regression. That should allow us to factor in the effect "babying" young starters has, as well the effect old age has on the pounding an arm can take.

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

rounding above...
i manually entered the first few numbers in the above comment and rounded them myself, then copied and pasted the others from my spreadsheet. Thus, Webb didn't have exactly 3.08 as his "overuse number" that's a rounded figure.
The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent analysis!
Very interesting to see how Dusty views his "horses", and how it corresponds to pitcher abuse. I agree wholeheartedly - why abuse Zambrano's arm in this lost season? Maybe he's got an indesctructible arm, but why take the chance? Great job.
By the way - how did you get the table to work? I've been trying to figure that out for awhile.

by mportsch on Aug 17, 2006 9:13 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Another interesting aspect...
of the data is that other than in 2003, Mark Prior and Kerry Wood were not overused. Of course, in 2003 they were overused significantly, especially when one considers they logged extra innings in the playoffs. However, that year the Cubs had a horrible bullpen and all the Cubs starters were "overused" that year, which may be a function of the lack of faith Dusty had in the bullpen as much as it is a sign of a long term trend of pitcher abuse.
The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's more than that...
... look, for example, at how the White Sox starters have struggled this year after being "overused" during last year's playoffs.

Conventional wisdom these days seems to say you need only four, and sometimes only three, starters in the postseason. Maybe that needs to be rethought.

by Al on Aug 17, 2006 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you edit a diary...
you can enter in html code that won't be recognized the first time you post an article. Thus, i simply posted the article with the script for the table in it, at which point the html script for the table showed up in the article. Then i copied and pasted this text, including the table script into the edit diary box, and told the server to read it as html script. That seemed to work.

If you want to test this, edit an old diary and put a table in it - it should work!

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Under the current software...
... set up for this site (which I do not control and which I know just enough about to do my posts), this is the only way to post tables at the present time.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

by Al on Aug 17, 2006 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually...
it wasn't too difficult, other than the confusion at the top of the thread from when the diary was initially posted.
The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Riding the horses?
Your comment that Dusty rides his top horses is probably true of lots of managers.  Isn't that what an ace is supposed to do?  I would expect that most managers leave their aces in a little longer that maybe expected and pull the younger guys a little quicker.        

by rlpete on Aug 17, 2006 11:09 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It depends on your definition of "ace"
If you definition of an "ace" is a certain level of performance, then this data includes the extra pitches one would expect Zambrano to throw given his "ace-ness," i.e. his level of play. The fact that he throws 11-12 pitches more than predicted tells us that he throws about a dozen more pitches than he would if he performed at the same level elsewhere.

Now, the cause of Zambrano's extra work doesn't necessarily have to be Baker. It could be a poor bullpen, a lot of young starters in the rotation, or Zambrano himself telling Dusty he's OK and doesn't need to be taken out (and he may be right).

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

remember...
Zambrano is still young. He has yet to pass through the age at which the chance of him getting injured decreases with age. Thus, even if a manager left his "veterans" in longer because their arms are more "seasoned" that trend wouldn't apply for Zambrano due to the young age at which he has reached "veteran" status.
The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Greg Maddux - Underused
I found it interesting that your numbers show Maddux was CONSISTENTLY underused during his 2 1/2 years with the Cubs.  Is that because he, not Dusty, decided when he wanted to come out of the game?

by JFCubFan on Aug 17, 2006 11:16 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes, that is definitely in there...
and it may partially explain why Zambrano is overused. If Maddux doesn't pitch as much as one would expect for someone with his peripherals, then those innings need to come from somewhere else. That "somewhere" may be part of Zambrano's extra work.
The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What?
Your numbers indicate that Maddux had MORE starts than Zambrano so that conclusion is wrong:

Year   Maddux   Zambrano
2006   25          26
2005   35          33
2004   33          31

When Maddux leaves the game early it is the RPs who pitch the remainder of the game.

I think Zambrano pitches more innings per game simply because HE wants to, for whatever reasons, and Baker & the coaches let him because it gives the RPs a break.  

If anything, I would argue that underutilizing the SPs stresses out the RPs but overutilizing the SPs stresses out the SPs.  It is the job of the manager and pitching coach to balance the correct amount of work for everyone, which is the point of your analysis I guess.

by JFCubFan on Aug 17, 2006 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, the bullpen has to make up innings...
in the specific game Maddux pitches. However, over the course of a series or a week, that burden may shift to Zambrano as he pithes longer innings that he otherwise would in order to give the bullpen a rest after working an extra inning for Maddux.

I'm not blaming Maddux for Zambrano's overuse. However, Maddux's age has caused him to be used less than a pitcher with similar stats. This may be part of the reason for the data showing the opposite trend for Zambrano.

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me get this straight
You are suggesting that Dusty HAS TO pitch Zambrano later in the game than usual to compensate for the extra work the bullpen performed when Maddux pulled himself out early in his previous start.

If what you say is true, then Zambrano will be pitching less now that Maddux is gone.  

Please present your analysis at the end of the season to support your hypothesis, professor. However, I stand by my previous statement that Dusty lets Zambrano pitch as long as he wants as long as he is winning.

by JFCubFan on Aug 17, 2006 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

look for the <i>italics</i> above...
Dusty doesn't have to do anything, and i'm not saying that Maddux's lower pitch count is certainly a part of the high pitch count for Z. It may be related.

Let me try an example:
The Cubs have a game in which the starter, who normally pitches 6 innings/start, has to leave the game after the first inning due to an injury. The Cubs do not have an off-day for at least 5 days. What does this imply for the rest of the staff? Well, on that day the bullpen will pull the extra duty, pitching 8 innings instead of the 3 you'd normally expect them to throw that day. However, over the next 4 days the manager would have to try to use the bullpen less than they normally would in order to make up for the overtime the bullpen arms received in the first game. If the manager has a "horse" on the staff, may pull the horse into their office and tell them, "Look (dude), the pen's tired. We need you to be a horse today. Go get 'em."

Of course, the manager doesn't have to do this. But many managers will do something of this nature. Since the endurance of the rest of the rotation isn't taken into account in this study (nor is the endurance of the bullpen), it is a variable that has to be considered part of alternate hypotheses for describing the data.

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're right...
Dusty probably lets Z pitch as long as Z wants to pitch, but you're fooling yourself if you don't think innings NOT pitched by someone else aren't made up in the rotation at a later date.  Here's an example--an extreme example to get the point accross...

Starter 2 goes 4 innings
Starter 3 goes 4 innings
Starter 4 goes 3 innings
Starter 5 goes 1 inning

Over those 4 games that's 24 innings pitched in relief.  The average number of innings from the bullpen per game is just under 4 innings yet during those 4 games they pitched an average of 6 innings per game.  Like starting pitchers, relievers can be overworked as well and a 4-day stretch like this is a good way to achieve it.

When Starter 1 goes to the mound the manager is looking for innings to SAVE his bullpen.  At this point, it's the bullpen that needs more rest than the starting pitcher.  

So, yes, he'll throw Starter 1 out there for another inning, maybe even 2 or 3 innings to save his bullpen because the other 4 starters did NOT pitch their expected innings.  

Over the course of the season things aren't often this bad, though they sometimes are as was the case with Zambrano's last start after the bullpen had pitched more than the rotation the previous 4 games.  

Every out not recorded by a starting pitcher is recorded by a guy in the bullpen.  If we assume that managers want to keep their bullpen usage at X number of innings, that out has a direct affect on the other 10 or 11 pitchers on the staff.  When 4 guys in the rotation are consistently failing to pitch their expected number of innings, this will have an impact on the bullpen, as is abundantly clear by simply looking at any of the stats as well as the other starting pitcher, which isn't so clear, but is most certainly present.  

by Maddog on Aug 17, 2006 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your table
All of this makes absolute sense if you can provide scientific proof that a certain number of pitches thrown represents over-use for all pitchers and invariably leads to injury. But I have never seen such proof presented, and in fact, Bill James argues that there is no proof that tracking pitches leads to a decline in arm injuries.

by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 12:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

this table tells us one thing about Z...
that he's used more than one would predict based on his level of performance. Whether or not that is harmful is extremely debatable.
The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

pitcher abuse
I'm not going to respond the way I have in the past, by bringing up examples of pitchers from the past who seemingly were "abused" but somehow managed to pitch 280 innings a season year after year. Every time I've done that, I've met the same response: "He was one in a million" or "that's like talking about the 98-year old who smoked his whole life."

What I will say is that in the past, all pitchers were "abused." That is, until about 20 years ago, the goal of every pitcher and his manager was to go the distance (Roger Clemens completed 18 of his 36 starts in 1987 as a 24-year old) and nobody cared how many pitches it took to do that. The pitcher stayed on the mound until he was unable to get the opposing team out - this was true for starters and relievers.

Under that regime, a lot of pitchers blew their arms out and had their careers end early. The same is true today despite the fact that pitchers are babied (compared with in the past). The rate of injuries now is similar to the rate then, from what my research shows, and perhaps a bit higher (though this may reflect that with so much money being spent now on these pitchers, management is quicker to take them out of action when they feel pain).

If, 20 years from now, you can show me proof that this babying of pitchers ended up resulting in far fewer careers ruined and far fewer trips to the DL, then great. I'll shut up. But for now, after about a decade of watching pitch counts and seeing starters pulled early to "save" their arms, I see no evidence that injury rates have fallen compared with historic levels. And the game has suffered. We haven't had a no-hitter in more than 2 years (perhaps because most pitchers can't throw 9 innings anymore). We're subjected to 1-0 games that take nearly three hours to play and feature 8 pitching changes. I can't see how that's good for baseball.

by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 1:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good points
and let me add that with today's medical improvements, many of today's pitchers can be saved where they would have been done 20 years ago.  The improved medical options plus today's "babying" should result in much fewer serious injuries if you believe all the abuse arguments.      

by rlpete on Aug 17, 2006 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
Good to hear some support for my position. Sometimes I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness arguing with pitch count supporters, or "pitch count police," as I call them. They're like a cult - they're so certain they're right that they can't believe anyone would have the audacity to challenge them.

by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with you too Danimal
The pitchers these days really do seem babied. There are some people that think everything can be quantified using the same template for everyone. (not neccesarily you shawn) I just can't stand it when a pitcher is going great, mowing hitters down and the manager feels he has to pull him because he's reached some arbitary pitch number.

by wicubfan on Aug 17, 2006 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.
I also agree that Pitcher Abuse is far from a reality in this game and, in my opinion, much more like a farce than anything else, but when I took a look at pitch counts for pitchers from the 60's through the present day, my findings showed that pitchers did not in fact throw more pitches per start back then as we are often told.  Pitchers would have a higher maximum pitch count than in today's game, but he average number of pitches per start was not more.

In fact, in 1971 there were only 6 guys who averaged more than 100 pitches per start.  In 2000 there were  54 guys who average more than 100 pitches per start.  There were 34 such guys in 2005.  

by Maddog on Aug 17, 2006 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm
Interesting stats. But you're helping prove their point - they say the innings pitched statistics from past years don't equate with innings pitched today, because pitchers threw far fewer pitches back then. But research I've seen shows that pitches thrown hasn't varied much in the last 50 years, meaning just as many pitchers were throwing 100 pitches or more per game in say, 1975 (when more than 1/3 of starts were completed), as are now.

by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

but that's also why...
pitchers could throw 280+ innings per season. Those innings were less strenuous than those thrown today, primarily because there were less pitches in each of those innings.

If you were to show me data that pitch counts have gone down dramatically over the past 50 years, you'd begin to convince me that we're all worry-warts and that the old timer's have shown arms can withstand more punishment than we think.

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well
As I said in my response to this research, I have seen other research that shows pitches thrown per game hasn't changed substantially since the 60's and 70's. I wish they'd kept that stat back then, for comparison's sake. All we have now are educated guesses.

However, it is undeniably true that in certain games and with certain pitchers, pitch counts were indeed much higher in the 1970s then today.
For example, in one 1974 game, Nolan Ryan pitched 13 innings, during which he struck out 19 batters and walked 10. A conservative estimate is that he threw over 200 pitches in this game (most of them fastballs, of course).

Another thing to take into account is that Nolan's 13-inning appearance wasn't all that remarkable at the time. Indeed, it was quite common in the 70's and even the 80's for a starting pitcher to continue into extra innings (Greg Maddux has done it several times, actually). So it isn't necessarily fair to look at just 9 innings for all games.

According to Retrosheet, in 1974 there were 16 separate starts in which pitchers went 12 innings or more in a single game (with a 15-inning start by Gaylord Perry topping the list), and 16 other games in which a starting pitcher made it through 11 innings. So even if they were throwing fewer pitches per inning, they were pitching a hell of a lot more innings, at least in some games, which adds up to more pitches.

They were also making a lot more starts - it was common for pitchers then to start more than 40 times a year. So if you believe pitching damage to arms is cumulative, then that has to be taken into account - obviously a pitcher starting 41 games instead of the top mark of 33 or so achieved today would throw a lot more pitches over the course of a season, even if in his average game he threw fewer than 100.

by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dusty would not have to "abuse" Z
and others. IF THEY DID NOT WALK so many batters
I really don't know how you can hold him responsible
for that , it is definately  a huge orginizational flaw

Most Cub starters are adding at least 20 pitches per start
with their insane number of walks. FYI with Maddux who
has the fewest walks in the NL gone, the Cub numbers
are going to SHOOT up on this.

I HATE NED COLLETTI

by jessica on Aug 17, 2006 1:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree with the spirit of this post...
but a pitcher's BB rate is already a part of the equation. Thus, the implications are even worse: Z throws a lot of pitches, even for someone who walks as many hitters as he does. And he walks a lot!

However, i do agree that the Cubs have to cut down on their walks. I think its even more important than drawing more walks (which to me is a close 2nd in general recommendations for the team).

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...
Everyone on the staff should cut down their pitches and less walks would definitely help.  Sometimes I think I would rather see them walk guys intentionally because I get so frustrated when a guy walks on 12 pitches.  It just really bugs me how they can't put guys away sometimes.  They foul off pitch after pitch and our pitcher just can't get them out. They get to a 3-2 count and it takes forever for the next batter to come up.  Sometimes I feel like the only way these guys know how to get people out is with a strikeout.  

It also annoys me when they get to 2 outs quickly and they need a million pitches to get the last guy out or can't get him and the inning continues.

A lot of things annoy me.

Cubbie Blue will always sPaRkLe in my eyes, but please stop losing. PLEASE!

by sparkles721 on Aug 17, 2006 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching efficiency
"Z throws a lot of pitches, even for someone who walks as many hitters as he does."

This is really an argument for pitching efficiency.  The key metric should be P/IP.  I think it is universally agreed that, in today's game, effective starting pitching should ideally provide 7 IP per game.  Since all managers would thus be trying to coax at least 7 IP out of their starter, managers that manage staffs consisting of inefficient pitchers would be more likely viewed as abusing their pitchers than ones that manage efficient staffs.  I ran some numbers and found them quite interesting:

Pitcher            2003 P/IP    Career
Wood              16.8        16.6
Prior            16.1        17.0
Zambrano        15.9        16.5
Clement                15.6        16.4

Pitcher            Career P/IP
Livan Hernandez            16.2
Shawn Estes        16.6
Russ Ortiz        17.2

Curt Schilling        15.3
Roger Clemens        14.5
Mark Buehrle        15.0
Randy Johnson        16.4
Johan Santana        15.5
Roy Halladay        14.8
Greg Maddux        13.4
Brad Penny        15.8

Clearly, though Prior, Wood, and Zambrano are (were) top pitchers, they are not nearly as efficient with their pitches as other top pitchers.  This creates a huge dilemma for the manager, because their dominance is limited due to shorter outings.  I also included other top pitchers managed by Dusty while with the Giants, and they are inefficient as well.  Rather than fire Dusty because he lets pitchers throw too many pitches, I think we would be better served by signing/developing pitchers that are much more efficient.

They played hard. They did their best. Move on. Their whole life isn't out in that field. It's their job. It's not an obsession.

by Jeff Pico on Aug 17, 2006 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

those are some interesting numbers...
and i wonder if P/IP would be a better predictor of P/GS all by itself than BB/IP, SO/IP, and H/IP are in total. If i do this sort of analysis again, i may look at P/IP independently.
The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about
the age of Prior and Zambrano?  These are guys who have yet to reach their prime and fully understand pitching.  What were these other guys P/IP at the same ages as Zambrano and Prior?

by Maddog on Aug 17, 2006 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good question...
I didn't run the numbers for every pitcher, but my spot checks indicate that pitch efficiency seems more innate and less learned, not unlike the ability to take walks or not strikeout.  For example, in Mark Buehrle's first full season he threw 221.1 innings with 15.0 P/IP. Greg Maddux's first full season was 155.2 IP/16.0 P/IP and his next season would be 249/14.2.  Curt Schilling's full first season as a starter was 226.1/14.4.  By contrast, Jason Schmidt's first full season was 187.2/16.4.  Mark Prior, in 2002, was 116.2/17.4.  You can find the data for P/IP for pitchers at espn.com if you'd like to run more samples.  I wish it were available somewhere already compiled and sortable, though.
They played hard. They did their best. Move on. Their whole life isn't out in that field. It's their job. It's not an obsession.

by Jeff Pico on Aug 17, 2006 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unclear to me...
How exactly is the expected pitches/start calculated?
They played hard. They did their best. Move on. Their whole life isn't out in that field. It's their job. It's not an obsession.

by Jeff Pico on Aug 17, 2006 2:33 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If you have MS Excel, you can do this yourself!
Basically, i took all the pitching seasons from 2003-2006 (Dusty's tenure with the Cubs) and copied the Name, Year, League, Pitches thrown (P), Games Started (GS), Pitches/Start (P/GS), At Bats Against (ABA), Hits (H), Walks (BB), and StrikeOuts (SO) for each pitching season. From this i calculated their H per ABA, BB, per ABA, and SO per ABA. Then, i had MS Excel come up with a set of linear equations that minimized the errors in predicting P/GS based on Year, League, H/ABA, BB/ABA, and SO/ABA. In other words, i told Excel that a player's P/GS can be predicted using the following equation:

P/GS = a*BB/ABA + b*SO/ABA + c*H/ABA + d(function of year) + e(function of league) + f (constant),

and further asked Excel to calculate what a, b, c, d, e, and f are in order to predict P/GS with the least amount of error

Excel uses a least-squares fitting to do this. If you want a more rigorous explanation of what that is you can try this explanation from the wonderful MathWorld.

The Cubs better shine 'fore twenty-oh-nine!

by shawndgoldman on Aug 17, 2006 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understood it.
I think.

Great job, Shawn.  Your posts are always very thought out and interesting.  Hopefully, you will give us more posts this offseason.

Since I love Z, I'm always worried. Sometimes more than other times because I don't know how the future will be like.  I really hope he has a strong arm that can stand anything because I don't want his career to end early.

Cubbie Blue will always sPaRkLe in my eyes, but please stop losing. PLEASE!

by sparkles721 on Aug 17, 2006 3:30 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Z
Please don't waste your time worrying about Carlos and his arm. If he were going to have arm troubles, it's likely they would have surfaced by now. Too many people spend too much time worrying about possible injuries to pitchers rather than just enjoying watching them pitch.

If Z were pitching in the 1970s, he'd be throwing 25 CGs and 300 innings a year (and winning 20 games a year), and no one would be worried. And it's likely he'd be able to keep it up. We worry way too much these days.

by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

article
Below is a link to an article that has a table estimating average pitches thrown per game for the top starting pitchers year by year for about the last 60 years.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/what-pitch-counts-hath-wrought-part-deux/

by danimal15 on Aug 17, 2006 4:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
I guess we are a bit spoiled living through the 70's.  That seemed to be the high water mark in terms of pitches thrown.  

by rlpete on Aug 18, 2006 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

pitch counts
the more you do something, the more chances you have to get hurt yourself doing it.  If you went to the gym and did increasing amounts of reps at some point you would hurt yourself, the guy next to you may be able to do double or half that amount before they hurt themselves.

by mike bornemann on Aug 18, 2006 10:10 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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