Bleed Cubbie Blue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: The Boxing Bulletin for Boxing Fans!

2007 Cubs = 2006 Devil Rays ???

I noticed a lot of positivity lately presumably because the Cubs have been playing better baseball lately.

If the Cubs can finish like they have played the last couple of months they will end up around 67-95 give or take a couple of games.......Does anyone know what Tampa Bay's record was last year?  It was 67-95.  

A healthy DLee, a healthy Prior and next year could be the exact same kind of season.  What is to say that two of the rookies won't come back next year on fire .....how many Devil Rays fans thought their rookies were gonna be so good?  I mean, besides Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus, The Hardball Times, and all the other people that thought the D-Rays prospects were good.  

So many posters on here (myself included) have voiced their opinions stating, "let the kids play" since the season is lost anyway.  Well the kids are playing and they are going to take their lumps, the key is for them to become completely different players in the offseason...and to reflect.  If Cedeno can learn to hit 30 homers play better defense while Murton learns to hit 40 homers this team is then only 12 or 13 players away from being really, really good.  

I am not real knowledgeable about how Tampa Bay played as a team last year (I started taking drugs and drinking heavily last year) so let me know why you think that either the Devil Rays were in the same situation as the Cubs are or why they were better off than this years Cubs are heading into next season.  

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

0 recs  |  Comment 137 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

It is time.....
....to change the framing, zeitgeist, attitude or whatever and stop using the words "healty Mark Prior" in conversations about the future of the club.

We should just pretend we don't have him and do our conjecture from there. If he comes back in any meaningful way then it's gravy. But really, how many times do you have to be smacked in the head to decide to finally get out of the way?

Besides the obvious - Go Irish.

by PopeFlick on Aug 24, 2006 6:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You know...
... if you want to post something dripping with sarcasm, at least use the sarcasm font.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 6:21 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Why don't you..
...just pick a new team to root for?  You obviously could care less about rooting for this one.  Not only is it frustrating seeing all of the Cubs-haters posts, this is also an example of laziness....the same type of laziness people acuse ARam for.  You can't even come up with your own material.  Too bad I can't receive some royalties for already posting this diary verbatim.
One more month!!!!!

by santo for prez on Aug 24, 2006 6:24 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Love it, or Leave It!!!!
It's like a county music festival/knife & gun show 'round here.

by Santos Sorrow on Aug 24, 2006 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Come on
that's not fair to the rest of us, especially those of us that came here from DailyKos.

There's plenty of criticism of the Cubs here. And yes, it's often peppered with posts from people who think criticizing the team means you are not a fan. Whatever. This place is full of people who hate Dusty, Hendry, etc, and are plenty pissed off over what has transpired here the past few years. To say it's not is just ridiculous.

But stop painting all of us with such a broad brush.

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 24, 2006 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What are you talking about?
This place is much less dangerous than a knife and gun show.

by jcub on Aug 25, 2006 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

for gods sake
what has this site become? the neo con version of cubs blogs???

is there no room for sarcasm? must you present your views in the BCB way?

if ANYONE here would take the time before they spoke to realize that maddog runs a great blog  (which for some reason isnt linked here) is one of the smartest commentators out then you wouldnt see this type of reaction

he knows more than that 90 % of the ppl who comment here and just because he doenst think we will be the 2007 Tigers he gets this shit

is this going to be a Cubs love it or leave type of place or somewhere where anyone can post?

"Getting the current version of Maddux is a minor help. Losing Izturis, who's just a glove playing out of position on the Dodgers, is a major one. "

by ksucubbie on Aug 24, 2006 6:34 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah
because no one ever criticizes the Cubs on this site. Good God, people, half of you think that this is happy shiny Cubs land where no dissent is tolerated, and the other half thinks that everyone here is routing for the Cubs to lose and hates everything Baker does.

Truth be told, we are probably somewhere in the middle. Everyone just relax.

And, for the record, this diary made me laugh. Well, maybe smirk.

"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 24, 2006 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.
We all HAVE to be somewhere in the middle, because part of rooting for a baseball team IS having hope for the future. Obviously, this year is done, was done long ago.

But why give up on next year NOW?

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed
about next year but diares saying we are next years tigers are silly and deserve scorn

al this site swarms on maddog, santos ect because they are agressive in their anger at this team yet people can trumpet players like izturis and bascially be agressivly foolish in their optimism

bcb is leaning way too much towards the America F**K yeah kind of crowd

"Getting the current version of Maddux is a minor help. Losing Izturis, who's just a glove playing out of position on the Dodgers, is a major one. "

by ksucubbie on Aug 24, 2006 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm fine with the doom and gloom...
...hell I sympathize. But I don't see too many, if any of the positivites running down others who don't think the Cubs are going to be good next year. Whereas Santos, Maddog, et al, don't seem to be satisfied with simply disagreeing with those who believe that there's hope, they feel the need to belittle and berate them. Everyone of their posts is in a pejorative spirit. Maybe running down and belittling others goes hand in hand with doom and gloom, but I would think there should be a way to disagree with those around you without resorting to such things.

And the Tigers comparison wasn't silly when you look at how bad the Tigers were last year and what they're getting out of essentially the same players this year. Somehow the Tigers have been romaticized into this fantastic team (and they are very good this year, though deceptively good) that everybody saw coming a long while sgo but it's simply not true.  The Tigers were a bad team last year and most thought they'd be bad this year. You could make the Tigers argument for a number of teams for next season.  

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly...
Feel free to have a negative attitude. But don't take it out on those who don't with condescending sarcasm.

by thekansasian on Aug 24, 2006 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
These guys fall all over themselves at 1060west trying to one-up each other in BCB baiting.
They played hard. They did their best. Move on. Their whole life isn't out in that field. It's their job. It's not an obsession.

by Jeff Pico on Aug 24, 2006 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can't stand that site...
...Whatever Cubs fans those guys on 1060 are, they aren't the kind of Cubs fan I want to be.

When the Cubs do finally win the World Series the only sad place in Cubdom will be that blog.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

theprognosticator...
Look through my comments here and find me 3 comments where i've belittled someone.  And when you're done I'll accept your apology.

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this entire diary was created to run down...
...the opinions of another.

If there's anyone who should be issuing an apology it is you, and not to me, but to santo4prez who didn't deserve the crap you gave him.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You said
every post of mine berates or belittles others.  

So find 3 of them that do this.  Just 3.  If every single one of them does it, it shouldn't be hard to find just 3.  

I will not apologize to Santo for prez for writing this.  Under no circumstances will that happen.  He had this and then some coming his way after the way he went off on people who disagreed with what he said on his thread.  

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Since we're nitpicking here...
I said every one of your posts (it was in fact more in regards to Santos Sorrow than yourself, who I don't see posting here very often) was in a pejorative spirit and that this diary was created solely to belittle another.

It was. You're nitpicking in order to distract from the issue. You posted a diary specifically to run down another poster.

And I checked the other diary santo started. I couldn't find one post where he was ripping into people, he was merely having a discussion.

If you don't want to apologize then that's your business, I'm done talking about this. But you clearly effed up in posting this diary and the sooner you just accept that and move on the quicker we can get over this and on to discussing Cubs baseball.

 

by theprognosticator on Aug 25, 2006 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK..
.."diares saying we are next years tigers are silly and deserve scorn"

Really, I asked the question why couldn't we be next years Tigers.  The basis for that question was the fact that the Tigers had a comparable record last year.  They did not make HUGE moves during the off-season and they have depended on previously un-proven players and young pitchers.  A person who is intelligent had every right to dispute that fact (hopefully with some reasonable basis for dispute).  To write a reciprical diary almost verbatim to the first, was not only childish, but also confirms my theory that there are a lot of posters here that are happier with a poor Cubs team....some people seem to be happiest when the can complain and sarcastic.

One more month!!!!!

by santo for prez on Aug 24, 2006 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

because
on so many levels we arent last years tigers team

we werent better than them last year we certainly arent this year

put this team in the AL central and we are worse than the royals

as trite as maddog's diary was its a response to seeing diaries like that

"Getting the current version of Maddux is a minor help. Losing Izturis, who's just a glove playing out of position on the Dodgers, is a major one. "

by ksucubbie on Aug 24, 2006 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The point is...
... that at this time a year ago, would you have said that the Tigers would have the best record in baseball right now?

Of course you wouldn't, and especially not after having made two free-agent signings (Jones, Rogers) that were widely panned in Detroit.

A lot of credit has to go to Jim Leyland, of course.

Now, does this mean the 2007 Cubs WILL be as good as the 2006 Tigers? Of course it doesn't. It only means that it COULD happen. If you don't want to believe in hope and possibilities, what on Earth are you doing being a fan of a sports team in the first place?

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wait a minute
 If you don't want to believe in hope and possibilities, what on Earth are you doing being a fan of a sports team in the first place?

first off, how the hell are you going to say that? i can be a sports fan for whatever reason i choose and of course i have faith the cubs can win next year

but i dont want to spend my time thinking about what COULD happen i would rather debate steps to take to make it MORE REALISTIC than hoping

the tigers of last year had alot more of quality young talent that this team did and they all devolped at the right time and THATS why they win not because its their time or they are this years magic team--

teams win for a reason tell me what reason we have to think we will hold the best record next year?

"Getting the current version of Maddux is a minor help. Losing Izturis, who's just a glove playing out of position on the Dodgers, is a major one. "

by ksucubbie on Aug 24, 2006 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because...
... anyone can do that, IF THEY MAKE THE RIGHT MOVES, and also with a little bit of luck, which the Tigers have also had.

Yes, sure, let's debate it. Let's do it reasonably, without condescending, without sarcasm, and without accusations toward each other.

That's not too much to ask, is it?

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

do you realize that this team
could really be looking at 90 losses

thats no joke
and it would take a helluva lot of moves to turn that into 70 plus or however many the tigers have at this point

"Getting the current version of Maddux is a minor help. Losing Izturis, who's just a glove playing out of position on the Dodgers, is a major one. "

by ksucubbie on Aug 24, 2006 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

90 losses? Hell they could lose 100
It will take 85-90 wins to make the playoffs in '07, that's a 20-25 game turn around.  Win Shares for even the BEST players in the league couldn't yield the Cubs enough incremental wins to compete next year with a likely budget of 85-95 million.

I think we should have a rational, civil look at our likely set of players who will be remaining on the Cubs for '07.  We then can match those players with their projected '07 Win Share.  Once we do this, we can take the expected budget less the likely current roster commitment and match that against the free agent market for '07 Win Share/Price.  

Does this sound like an exercise BCB would like to participate in?  The community can even project '07 stats for current Cubs if you like.  I'd like to just show you all, we aren't here to belittle or make fun of you all.  We just think a dose of realism in our fandom, would be good for everyone.

What do you think?

by Santos Sorrow on Aug 24, 2006 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How do you figure...
that the 06 team is any worse than the 05 team. In fact, before D Lee went down, I would say they are unquestionably better on paper. The bullpen has better arms, and they added a leadoff man, and didn't lose anyone (other than the fact that D Lee's year was probably somewhat of an aberration, although to what degree we don't know)

that 05 team won 79 games. If you extrapolate that team's talent when adding a big bat and two pitchers and a hopefully healthy Lee, how is winning 10 more games so ridiculously farfetched.

The prospective 07 team would be better than the 05 team at almost every position. You have D Lee and Ramirez and Barrett, but Izturis > Neifi (who played most of the season) Murton or prospective big bat is far > the joke of Dubois and Hollandsworth, JP > CP and Lawton and company and JJ > Burnitz offensively (although his throwing arm is still a joke. If the big bat plays second instead of left field then he is > Hairston/Walker.

What is your rebuttal?

I didn't feel like considering it, but very importantly, adding two solid pitchers would also make the starting staff > the 05 staff, and there is no question that next year's bullpen will be better than that travesty.

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well let's put this...
..into perspective then.....take your computer generated stat machine and see what the Tigers were supposed to do this year.  Cause I sure the hell don't think that at the end of the year, ANYONE would have predicted this season (computer or no computer).

P.S.  What is up with your username anyway?

One more month!!!!!

by santo for prez on Aug 24, 2006 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Futile effort
Direct from "The Hardball Times":

"Win Shares are a great player comparison tool. I like using them for Hall of Fame discussions, or MVP arguments. Also, they're good for contract evaluations. Conversely, they're not well-suited for evaluating a player's true talent, so they're also not good for forecasting a player's or team's future performance.

They played hard. They did their best. Move on. Their whole life isn't out in that field. It's their job. It's not an obsession.

by Jeff Pico on Aug 24, 2006 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.
I have said this so many times, but I will say it again: There are things about winning baseball that cannot be measured on a stat sheet.

Granted, statistics CAN be useful for certain purposes -- we all wish that a certain Cub manager would pay more attention to OBP -- but burying your head in WARP and PECOTA and those things, isn't going to tell you how to build a winning team.

That said, sure, I'll start a reasonable debate about how to put together a winner, not only for next year, but for many years to come.

That's what we all want. Right?

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reasonable debate?
Post a 25 man with salaries, that should start one.

by Santos Sorrow on Aug 24, 2006 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I agree with Al...
..on the stat quote and all things PECOTA and WARP, etc.  I agreed to listen, but I would like to see what the "your" system had projected the Tigers to do this year.  I guarantee it was no where near the kind of year they are seeing.
One more month!!!!!

by santo for prez on Aug 24, 2006 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amen, brother...

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

PECOTA
sure seems to a fairly accurate job at projecting a team's success or failure in a season.  Obviously there are things that happen that a computer can't take into effect, but it's a pretty useful tool in establishing a baseline of wins and losses for a team.

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again, you confuse realism with...
...utter despair.

And gleeful despair at that.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Despair, no?
just contempt for Cub fans

by Santos Sorrow on Aug 24, 2006 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're right...
I forgot.

You hate the Cubs and have contempt for all Cubs's fans.

Well, lol, more power to you man, everybody loves a good villain.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

how is this useful?
Your projected budget is an absolute guess.  It could be 80 million (not likely), or it could be 110 million (also not likely).  But I would guess it will be closer to what it has been the last few years, around 95-100 million.

Unless you have inside information as to what the salary structure looks like, it is absolute speculation to try to construct a team.  I have no problem with trying to do so, and enjoy reading posts about it.  However, for you to insinuate that your method of trying to figure out how poor next year's team will play is bogus.  Much like your attitude.

by jcub on Aug 25, 2006 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, Al...
I figured it would come down to the Twins and Tigers.  I think there were quite a few people who thought the Twins were going to be good.  A good friend of mine with whom I make annual prediction bets picked the Tigers to win the AL Central.  I caved in and gave the division to the Twins with the Tigers in 2nd.  Had I known they wouldn't put Liriano in the rotation at the start of the season, I would have gone with the Tigers.

They were much better than their record indicated last season and they played in a tough division.  They probably would have finished in 2nd place in the NL Central ahead of the Astros had they played in the Central in '05.  That's more a sign about how bad the Central is than how good the Tigers were.  They weren't a good team, but they weren't bad.

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Part of that....
... last year, is that the White Sox owned the Tigers, just as they have for most of this year. That accounts for a fair amount of the Tigers' under-.500 deficit in 2005.

They were primed to have a run like this, you're right -- but no one thinks of that when looking at a 90-loss team.

Just the same way no one looked at the 1983 Cubs that way. Or the 1997 Cubs. Or the 2002 Cubs. All of whom lost 90-plus games.

Granted, all of those teams made significant player acquisitions in the following offseasons. Two of them (1984, 2003) changed managers. That's where the Cubs have to start this offseason.

Now, let's debate THAT instead of sniping at each other.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But, Al...
You're missing something when you mention those Cubs teams.  They overperformed.  All of them.  I'm not doubting that the Cubs could luck into the playoffs in 2007.  A couple career years, everybody stays healthy, Prior returns to "normal" and a pat on the back from God's hand and the Cubs could be in the playoffs.  But when that luck goes away in 2008 we're back to 90+ losses.  Let's build a team that doesn't require that luck.  

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Take Verlander and Bonderman..
...out of that rotation, trade Rogers to the Dodgers.  Put Ordonez on the DL for most of the season and let me know how the Tigers do.
One more month!!!!!

by santo for prez on Aug 24, 2006 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The
question about the Tigers was posed for discussion. The diary about the Devil Rays was sarcastic and an insult to the original diary.

If he wants to present his disagreement, do it in the Tigers thread and say why we're not the Tigers rather than make some smartass diary in response.

It is becoming like grade school on this site; who can mock the other one the most, who can come up with the most sarcastic reply etc.
I enjoy debating with people who don't see optimism next year; but the problem is that that rarely happens because it always is broken down into insults. I post what I think, and rather than make an intelligent reply with facts, I am met with just sarcasm mocking my original statements.

by thekansasian on Aug 24, 2006 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you.
I'd like to think we can debate disagreement reasonably here without sarcasm and condescension. There are certain people, apparently, who don't agree with that.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well put...
If people want to bury the Cubs for the next ten years, fine by me, but it seems to be that if you think the Cubs will continue to be terrible that you also have a penchant for resorting to condescension and insults rather than intelligent discussion.

Perhaps they feel it necessary as no matter how negative they are, the majority of Cubs fans always seem to find their way back to hope (which is in our DNA as Cubs's fans it seems) and perhaps they are afraid they might end up hoping a little too?

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know no
Cubs fans who would say they have no chance for the next 10 years.  I know many who will say they have no "legitimate" chance the next 2 and maybe 3 seasons.  

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think you can say that...
... until you see what they do or don't do this offseason.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it is important to note...
that although this organization seems to eschew big free agent signings, can you ever remember a season and this ensuing offseason where Cubs fans were more disgruntled, because I can't. I'm 21, so I can't speak to years before like 1990, but this has to be the penultimate in disgruntledness for my lifetime.

And don't say 2003, because that was disappointment, not so much disillusionment.

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you can, Al.
Keep in mind I'm talking about being a legitimate contender.  A team that clearly has the talent from the start of the season to get to the playoffs.  The Cubs aren't going to have that.  They're well below average in LF, CF, SS and they'll probably improve at 2nd base so i won't include that position.  Still, that's 3 positions they're below average at and the production of DLee is going to be much closer to his 2004 numbers than his 2005 numbers.  We can expect a regression to the mean for Barrett.   We can probably expect the same for Jones as well. We've got no pitching and only 2 reliable relief pitchers and no bench.  How this team can be built into a legitimate contender in one offseason is beyond me.  It would cost upwards of $70 million or more in the free agent/trade market.  

We're looking at a team that will likely have to improve 25 games to definitely get into the playoffs.  25-game improvements don't happen very often.

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you're talking about a playoff lock...
then I definitely agree with you. Anything that the Cubs could conceivably do in this offseason wouldn't place them as a playoff lock. It is sad that we have to assume the worst in regard to their offseason activity (or lack thereof), but this organization is just so disappointing that I think a lot of us, myself included, expect failure so we don't expect too much. Therefore, I try to be optimistic about the small genstures that this team makes to satiate the fanbase enough to keep us buying tickets.

There is absolutely no way that the Cubs will be a playoff lock next year, but it has a definite chance of happening. With two or three smart moves, we will be just as much of a contender in the NL Central as any other team.

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no problem with negitivity, but
this kind of soothsaying is a little silly.  We have no idea what the Cubs will do this offseason, or next, or in 2008.  We also have no idea whether Lee and Barrett are just hitting their strides ('05 and this year, respectively), or if they played out of their minds.  Seems like pessimism to this degree is just as silly as saying that the Cubs will the best team next year (that is not a slam on Santo for prez's Tigers diary--I haven't even read that).

by jcub on Aug 25, 2006 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was being hyperbolic...
and arbitrarily picked a number.  

You missed the point.

Point being is that people can bury the Cubs for next year or for the next fifty years, it makes no difference to me.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No problems here prez...
I thought your diary had a very reasonable point.

The Tigers were a flat out bad baseball team last year, they made few moves in the offseason, stuck with their youth, changed managers, and are now where they are.

Does it happen everytime? Of course not. For every Detroit Tigers team that busts out you get about a dozen Pittsburgh Pirates teams who change managers, roll with youth, and lose 90+ games again.

But this Cub team, with a healthy D Lee, with a couple of solid moves, with a year better Murton, with the kids improving pitching-wise, could very well turn it around next year.

Point being, you believe the kids we're bringing up have ability. I happen to agree, so it's not out of the realm of possibility at all that the Cubs can right the ship and make the postseason next year.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And...
... don't forget the most important part of your post: A NEW MANAGER.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and Ben Cherrington
n/t

by Santos Sorrow on Aug 24, 2006 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Could you explain...
... your infatuation with Ben Cherrington? I don't get it.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's just more condescension...
...pick something relatively obscure, esoteric, refer to it, nobody gets it, and voila, you are smarter than they are.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gosh o golly then...
... how clever.

Why is it that he thinks he HAS to condescend? Does it give him that much pleasure?

I think the rest of us have better things to do.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, he misspelled it...
I googled it and came up with some Iowa college wrestler.

by theprognosticator on Aug 26, 2006 2:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Disagree...
Maddog wrote his diary specifically to run down somebody else in an attempt to make them look stupid.

No, that has no place here. Nobody can stop him from posting these kinds of diaries of course, but we sure as hell don't have to like them or sit by and idly take them.

If he has the right to post these kinds of diaries, we have the right to respond and tell him to go to hell.

 

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah
kick his ass!

typically people who say x or y isnt tolerated in places are the ones who shouldnt be tolerated

"Getting the current version of Maddux is a minor help. Losing Izturis, who's just a glove playing out of position on the Dodgers, is a major one. "

by ksucubbie on Aug 24, 2006 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whatever...
...put it in whatever terms you wish to try and turn me into this bigoted, intolerant person but this juvenile diary wouldn't make it past daycare. This is the kind of crap you see all the time on that infantile Cubs.com message board.

I'm sorry but there's no reason for anyone to post a diary explicitly intended to run down another poster for something as harmless as optimism.

It was mean-spirited and I didn't appreciate that. Why should I keep quiet when somebody is being mean for the sake of being mean?  

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

very well
i could care less about this diary its the larger problem that this site is being drained of smart, bright commentators because of the perception that this is a place for pie in the sky fans or militant fanatics

and like it or not the onus should be on all of us who post here to change that-- people like maddog bring great ideas and make a richer discussion

but people like you drive them away and thats a shame

"Getting the current version of Maddux is a minor help. Losing Izturis, who's just a glove playing out of position on the Dodgers, is a major one. "

by ksucubbie on Aug 24, 2006 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No one is criticizing ideas or discussion here...
... and if you think anyone is, you are just plain wrong.

Instead of bitching about this, why don't you add some of that "smart, bright commentary".

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Defend Maddog on another diary...
...This is one you should have left alone. This does not qualify in the least as bringing great ideas and richer discussion.

And if all I accomplish is driving away someone who posts little more than meanspirited diaries, then I have done this blog a service.

This is a stinking turd and you should have left it alone. Defend him when he actually has a good idea, not when he does something he should regret.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

All my ideas
will be called pessimistic by you.  As i'm sure they were before.  It makes it easier for you to dismiss them, I suppose.  

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, pessimism is fine...
You missed the point.

The Cubs are doomed. My brain agrees with you 100%. But I like to fight my brain as I don't want my brain to be right. So, I do what I must or otherwise, why watch baseball if there's no hope?

But it's meanspirited posting meant to belittle another poster who has hope for the future. That is the problem. Not being negative.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's not it at all...
... and you know very well this isn't a "love it or leave it" place, regardless of what some others might think.

In fact, I am remiss on not including Maddog's site. I haven't updated the CBA links in a while -- I'll add it.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's becoming such
n/t
"Getting the current version of Maddux is a minor help. Losing Izturis, who's just a glove playing out of position on the Dodgers, is a major one. "

by ksucubbie on Aug 24, 2006 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In your opinion...
... to which you are entitled.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
"maddog runs a great blog"....in your opinion

"he knows more than that 90 % of the ppl who comment here "....in your opinion

"is one of the smartest commentators"...in your opinion....I visited the site.  The site is filled with gramatical errors.  I know that I make mistakes in my posts and that will happen in the high-speed blog world, but when you want to magnify your voice to everyone, then you should really take the time to do it right.  

One more month!!!!!

by santo for prez on Aug 24, 2006 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok
when i first talked to maddog i didnt like him either but his site even with spelling errors (eyes rolling to the sky)
 is chock full of detailed posts with FACTS not opinion and IS a worth while read

but to each his own

"Getting the current version of Maddux is a minor help. Losing Izturis, who's just a glove playing out of position on the Dodgers, is a major one. "

by ksucubbie on Aug 24, 2006 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Facts?
Sure. There are plenty of facts here too, if you'd look around for them.

Maddog's site, as does every single blog in existence, has plenty of his opinions. That's his right. Just as it is for me to have mine.

You can disagree with my opinions, and I welcome fair debate and I always have.

It's the belittling and condescension I can do without.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it has
nothing to do with you personally you views are usually pretty decent

in some ways your a victim of your sucsess you have a broad spectrum of fans here and need to stay in the middle but need to reconize that as annyoing as relentless negativism is is the same for the other side

"Getting the current version of Maddux is a minor help. Losing Izturis, who's just a glove playing out of position on the Dodgers, is a major one. "

by ksucubbie on Aug 24, 2006 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It...
is NOT the negativity! I, and most everyone on here, is fine with that; but simply state your opinions rather than make fun of ours (not saying you personally, but those who are negative).

by thekansasian on Aug 24, 2006 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gosh, yeah, why should we expect someone
who is posting their opinions on a purportedly legitimate Cubs blog to go to the trouble of running spellcheck or editing their own work?

by jcub on Aug 25, 2006 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

FWIW
I've visited Maddogs' blog a couple of time and he's very knowledgeable.

by VS on Aug 24, 2006 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL
I'm sorry, but you want me to take you seriously when you're complaining about grammatical errors rather than the content itself?  I could care less what errors there are when it's done.  As long as it's readable, that's fine with me.  I don't do this for a living and don't have to time to edit my posts, but if you're willing and ready to take on anything I've said on that site based on content and not grammatical errors, let me know.  

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ridiculous, worthless diary...
It's fine if you see no hope for the Cubs Maddog, go ahead and stew in your own rage at the team.

But don't drag the rest of us down, as misguided as we may be. If we choose to find hope that perhaps this team can turn it around come 2007, for crying out loud just let us. It's one thing to disagree and think this team is doomed, but quite another to run everybody down and ridicule those who think differently than you.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 6:34 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If you want to make...
an argument against the Cubs, then make it. Don't pull this second grade trying-to-be-funny shit. This is a Cubs blog for Cubs fans; you don't have to be positive, but there's no need to criticize those who are.

by thekansasian on Aug 24, 2006 6:39 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Disingenuous
It was one man's opinion.  The Tigers weren't a good team last year, this year they are.  The '92 Phillies weren't a good team, the '93 team was.  The '83 Cubs weren't a good team, the '84 Cubs were.  Not one of those teams turned over their entire roster in the offseason.  The 2007 Cubs could get some great and unexpected performances from players, just like the '84 Cubs got an unexpected MVP year from Ryno.  I think my favorite Harry Caray quote sums it up best:

"I want to jump up and down when I think about that `84 team, and I want to cry when I think about Steve Garvey.  That ball Tim Flannery hit through Leon Durham's legs, how can that happen?  You know how? Because that's baseball.  That's what makes this game great.  It happens every day.  The impossible is possible.  The unbelievable is believable.  That's why I love baseball."

They played hard. They did their best. Move on. Their whole life isn't out in that field. It's their job. It's not an obsession.

by Jeff Pico on Aug 24, 2006 7:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well done...
Nice post...

Don't forget the 2002 Cubs and the 2003 Cubs.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look...
I care not how one roots for their favorite team.  I don't even particularly care if people are optimistic or pessimistic or whatever.  Many would refer to me as pessimistic, but I would not.  I think I'm generally right down the middle full of hope when the season starts and then much more desperate than I am angry about this team.  I accept that this is the Cubs and I chose to root for this team.  This was a conscious decision I made when I was 6 years old.  I have no one to blame but myself.

This post was intended to be funny and nothing more than that.  There was no cut downs of the author who wrote much of the original wording to this.  I said what I had to about his diary right off the bat.  I said nothing else in that thread.  

To be quite honest with you all, what irritated me the most about Santo for Prez's diary was his claims that those who disagreed with him were Cub-haters as he has already referrred to me in this diary.  Personally, I don't care.  I know how much the Cubs mean to me and how much the game of baseball means and I don't have to prove that to anyone else.

This was merely an attempt to be funny making light of a thread that caused much argument earlier today.  Perhaps it's one I shouldn't have done.  Perhaps I should not have added the little commentary I did.  Perhaps, just maybe, this was much needed to show that not only are the 2006 Cubs going to have a similar record to the Tigers a year ago, but also to one of the worst teams in the game a year ago.

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 7:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You know...
... I think ALL of us here can say the same thing that you did about the Cubs and what they mean to us. We are all passionate fans and that's why we follow this team so closely, live and die (mostly die, this year) with its results, and want to win SO badly, because NONE of us have ever experienced a World Championship.

There are ways to do this without being sarcastic and condescending. I know you were trying to be funny. It didn't work.

I don't think ANY of us here, or on any other site, are "Cub-haters". Really, why invest that much emotion in a team if you hate them?

Yes, it's true that the Cubs aren't going to be that much better than the Devil Rays this year. Is it possible that the 2007 DEVIL RAYS will contend? Sure it is. Is it LIKELY? No, it's not.

But that's why we start each and every spring with renewed hope. It may be squashed in a few weeks, or it may last all year. But as was posted several posts above, that IS why we all love baseball so much.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I give each Cubs team
the benefit of the doubt from Opening Day until the end of May before I come to any conclusions about how that team is going to do.  it takes 2 months to get an idea what the team is capable of doing and I refrain from any worthwhile analysis until that time has come and gone.

that being said, it's awfully darn hard to look at what Hendry has to do (with Hendry's skills nonetheless) and turn this team around.  First of all, it's a team that shouldn't be turned around, but should work on promoting the youngsters and seeing what they have down the road.  Of course this won't be done so that's a moot point really.  

But how does this team get from where we are to where we want to go?  Short of an increase in payroll up to the $130 million + mark I just don't see it.  It's not there.  

Sure, there's always the possibility that you get 3 or 4 career years from places you weren't expecting it and everybody stays healthy and somehow, almost magically, you contend.  is this really what we're reduced to hoping for though?  Hope that we can get lucky?  Short of the greatest amount of luck that I've seen in this game this team won't come close to contending next season.  

How about we build a team that can legitimately contend?  Let's take as long as it takes to do it, but let's do it right.  I'm sick and tired of this patch it up and send it back out stuff we see every single year.  It's not working.  The Cubs will never be an annual contender if they keep doing this.  None of the teams that have contended on an annual basis throughout the history of this game have done it the way the Cubs are.  It won't work.  

We may get lucky from time to time, but I'd much rather have a 5-10 year window where we're contending each and every season than this 1 out of 10 years stuff.  

Just do it right.  Take as long as it needs, but do it right.

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's an intelligent post...
I don't necessarily agree, but I am interested in the opinion, as long as it is not draped with sarcasm.

On another note, as I have made about 4-5 posts on this thread condemning the practice on belittling another poster, I realize that I too sometimes get caught up and may make a sarcastic remark or two. I apologize and hopefully everyone can get along and talk intelligently.

by thekansasian on Aug 24, 2006 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's my question.
Why can't you write posts like this all the time? This one makes a great deal of sense, and yes, I'd love to have exactly what you are talking about. I think ALL of us would.

Now -- let's take this as a starting point for debate. Let's say you're the GM. What's the VERY FIRST THING YOU DO?

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He does, often
just not here.

by Santos Sorrow on Aug 24, 2006 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wrote
this article yesterday or last night and it pretty much sums up what I'd do were I the GM of this team.  I look ahead to the future hoping a few of the young guys can show some progress in the next year filling in around them with free agents or trades.  I DO NOT sign any free agents this offseason with the exception of a pitcher who eats some innings--this is not a guy I'd anticipate being a part of a team that can contend in a few years.  He's just someone who can allow 3 youngsters in the rotation allowing them to go through what they'll have to go through without destroying the bullpen arms.  

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maddog
I  have read your blog... Like it... alot.
I look forward to your posts here.  I agree some, I disagree some.  You are ane intelligent baseball mind.
This was beneath you.
It's cool we like the same junk and stuff- Phillip J. Fry

by smwojoz on Aug 24, 2006 7:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

ksucubbie...
...This got lost in all of the chaos above so I am bringing the question down here.  I am asking a serious question here, I hope that it is not misinterpreted in any wasy:

If you take Bonderman and Verlander out of that rotation, trade Rogers to the Dodgers (or where ever).  Put Ordonez on the DL for most of the season and let me know how the Tigers do.

One more month!!!!!

by santo for prez on Aug 24, 2006 8:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This was a bad team
Regardless of injuries.  Yes, they might not have been "as bad", but they were bad nonetheless.

Are you comparng Wood/Prior to Bonderman/Verlander?  If you are then you would be way off this year.  Even when healthy the "horses" have sucked.

Just imagine if 1-7 Prior could have pitched all year.  

by pwhalen on Aug 24, 2006 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's correct.
Too much was put in the Wood/Prior basket. Yes, IF those two had been the Wood/Prior of 2003, then we'd have had something.

But those guys may never be like that again. It's time to move on.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly, even if we get the Prior of '05
...again, add another quality starter and I think you have something.

Prior was overall pretty good in 2005, if we could just get that guy back, we'd be a much better ballclub.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem
is not the injuries to Wood and Prior, but Hendry's inability to plan for their inevitable injuries.  EVERYBODY knew they'd be injured.  And now we're getting word from the same guy who first told us about Prior's shoulder injury that the Cubs have been told his injury is the exact same as what Wood had at the end of the '05 season.  Prior will also be injured next season...guaranteed.  The injury excuse doesn't fly.  There was certainly no way you could predict an injury to Derrek Lee, but you could predict the injuries to Wood and Prior.

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 24, 2006 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My 2 cents
I'm new here, but it seems like a lot of the pessimism is sensational, hyperbolic, and borderline ridiculous. No, the Cubs of '07 probably won't be the 100 win team that this Tigers team is, but to say that this team needs to make an unbelievably extensive overhaul to compete is just completely indefensible, and negative for the sake of negativity.

How would a team with one new big bat, and 2 new starting pitchers (one being top notch, the other being solid) be such a farfetched contender. And for that matter, how is that so different than the 2003 Cubs. Realistically, that would mean 3 players with 30 plus homers, and optimistically it could mean two or three guys with more than 40 homers. And besides, pitching is far and away more important, and barring injury that would give us Zambrano and two FA quality starters. You don't think that out of Prior, Miller, and this veritable cadre of young guys that we have couldn't make up two decent starters between them? What exactly is your reasoning? Even most good teams don't have aces for their 4 and 5 starters, and with that large of a pool to draw from, it seems almost farfetched that two of them wouldn't be decent.

That isn't a guarantee of success by any means in that we always have to worry about injuries etc., but young guys typically get better, and a solid pitching staff always makes teams look far better. The Tigers are only 10th in runs scored (I remember when we were like seventh a few years ago, and Cubs fans were complaining), so I really don't think that a good pitching staff anchored by  a continuously maturing Z couldn't keep the Cubs in contention.

Obviously this is all contingent upon 1. a new manager/coaching staff...2. those 3 major FA aquisititions....and 3. health, but if those things fall into place, and the stars align this isn't exactly a quixotic dream here.

I get the feeling that being that pessimistic in the face of poor reasoning is so popular because it is a safe position. If you stay pessimistic and the Cubs fail, you can say "I told you so" and "I knew it" in a vindicated manner. If the Cubs do well and win, you will obviously be too happy to care about your predictions. The optimists here (when optimism isn't ridiculous and has logic behind it) are the ones taking a chance. You have to make yourself vulnerable to leave yourself open to disappointment.

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 8:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'd also like to point out...
this year's Cardinals. They have Albert Pujols (who is of course, great) and then Scott Rolen (very good) and then an aging Jim Edmonds (not that great anymore) and then very little offense, and their pitching staff consists of ONLY ONE very good pitcher, and yet even with all of their troubles they are still leading this division. To me, this is proof positive that the NL and particularly our division is so weak that contention requires very little from what we don't already have (a lot of it involving our manager).

Remember, before this season I remember writers actually laughing about how terrible the Reds are, and predicting a basement finish, and yet here they are nearing september at the top of the wildcard. You can be a flawed team and still compete

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That last paragraph, I think...
... says it all, and quite well.

On another part of this topic -- it doesn't take a very good team to contend in 2006. It may in 2007. We simply do not know that yet.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's just not likely
The Cubs will have about 28 million left to spend on the following CF, LF, 2B, 3 starters (4 if Prior isn't healthy), 3 bullpen arms, and their entire 5 man bench.

Some of these positions can be filled cheap (Murton, Marshall), But do the math and then let me know how they are going to add 3 good free agents and fill the other spots while still coming in under budget.

Yes they might contend if if if and the stars align.  It would be better if they were less worried about patching holes in hopes of a miracle next year, and more inclind toward building with a plan.

by pwhalen on Aug 24, 2006 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You didn't read what I said...
They need ONE new big bat (Soriano) and TWO starters. They don't need a complete new bullpen. They have what they have, and the rest is filled internally. And yes, they do re-sign Pierre, because otherwise it was completely illogical to not trade him. They don't need to completely redo the bench as Theriot is a solid fit, and bench players aren't exactly multi million dollar aquisitions.

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are right...
.."bench players aren't exactly multi million dollar aquisitions".....unless their name is Neifi Perez:)
One more month!!!!!

by santo for prez on Aug 24, 2006 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But
that's a team that might be able to win the Wild Card.  That's not what I want.  I want a team that contend on an annual basis and not have to wait for luck to grant them a spot in the playoffs.  If one or even two of those new acquisitions get injured, which is likely, then we're right back where we are.  

Furthermore, we can't ignore the fact that the Cubs have not signed an elite free agent since Andre Dawson in 1987 when he handed the Cubs a blank check and told them to fill in his salary.  This is a weak free agent market and the Astros are going to be the richest of all teams in baseball and they happen to be in the same division.  Whatever 2nd tier players the Cubs sign, the Astros will do more.  They have more money, more incentive to win, and a more competent general manager.  

The Cardinals lose all 4 of their starting pitchers and will most certainly be signing one of the best available as they went out and tried hard to get AJ Burnett this past offsason.  with 4 free agents in that rotation, they won't fail this time around.  

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Babysteps...
...the blow it up method may work sometimes, but not always.  What is to say that 3 years into your "rebuilding", you don't run into more of the injury bug or guys start to hit FA.  The problem with "blowing it up" is that if it doesn't work, then you're not going to compete for anything for a really long time.

IMO, make a couple moves in the off-season, more power at 2B, solid starter and an innings-eater.  Be competitive for a few months (maybe even better), then make a key trade or two during the season.  

One more month!!!!!

by santo for prez on Aug 24, 2006 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha
its funny that you mention "babysteps", because I contemplated using that word, and I was going to make a "what about bob" reference

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What they're doing now
hasn't worked for 100 years.  I'm willing to take a chance and take on the model that other successful teams have done in building an annual contending team.  

Obviously if you play 8 rookies across the diamond, you're lucky if two pan out, but then you know which areas you need to fill with outside resources.  Then you bring up some other guys, or maybe give some another look and after another year you fill some other holes with free agents.  

This is EXACTLY what Detroit did and they started working on it in 2003 when they lost 119 games.  Anytime you see a team rise to the top quickly, it's going to be through homegrown youngster who CAN produce (Murton does not qualify here...unfortunately--not yet anyway), veteran free agents, a deep bench, pitching and defense.  

The problem with your method is that you're plugging some holes and ignoring others while still trying to contend.  This means you can't give the youngsters the look they deserve to see if they can show some progression.  You're then forced to play some veteran like Neifi over Cedeno even though it has no future benefit to your team whatsoever and at the end of the season you're right back where you were a year ago.  

Not to mention that you're still asking for a great deal of luck to get your where you want to go.  You need that career year, you need to stay healthy because you don't have the depth you need, and a major injury is crippling which can result in ill-advised trades.

It's a dead end to longterm success.  No team with a moderate payroll has been able to sustain success this way.

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, you're probably right
I was just arguing that the Cubs don't need a complete overhaul to contend. I too have no faith in  this organization to go pick up these guys that they NEED to get. At this point, I will take a playoff contending team, even if they aren't strong WS contenders, because I don't know about you, but I'm sick of these joke laughing stock teams. I don't see how you could call them just a wild card team though. Take a good look at this year's Cardinals team. They have Pujols, then Carpenter, then Rolen, then a whole lot of ho-hum mediochrity and they are leading this poor excuse for a division.

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Cardinals
are not really a playoff team though.  I said before the season started the Cardinals would win less than 88 games and it appears at this point that they may not even come close to that.  They're not a very good team that's helped out by a weak central division and a weak national league.  I certainly don't hope to be the Cardinals.  The Cardinals of '04 and '05, yeah, but not this trainwreck they're running out there.  

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And yet...
they are still in the lead in this joke of a division. You don't think that the NL Central is all of a sudden going to be great next year, do you? I'm not saying that the Cubs, with the additions that I outlined would be as good as them. I'm saying that team would be markedly better. The point is that if a team that crappy can be playoff bound, a potential team of significantly more talent could handily win this weak division.

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem with that...

He is being paid superstar money for half a season of performance.

...is that you're assuming the Cubs will improve next season, and nobody else in the division will.

This is just my opinion, of course, but I believe the Brewers are poised to take over the NL Central crown next season.

by VS on Aug 24, 2006 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is quite possible...
but if we make a few smart moves, we stand just as good of a chance as them. Plus, as good as guys like Capuano are, Sheets is just as reliable as Prior, and they will almost assuredly be counting on him.

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Astros
are the richest team in all of baseball having more than $50 million to spend on the free agent market.  

if it was like last season when they didn't have much to spend, then I'd say the Cubs had a shot, but the Astros are better than us now and they're going to be better than us next season no matter what we do.  They've got more money... A LOT MORE MONEY!  

The Cardinals have more than us as well.

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've read the exact opposite about the birds...
I've read that they will have a bit of a crunch come the offseason, though that won't stop them from being in the mix for anybody.

That being said, the Cardinals haven't made a big splash in free agency for awhile now, as they tend to pick up guys off the scrap heap (Carpenter, Suppan) and turn their careers around.

But perhaps they're due.

The Astros on the other hand will have Pettitte, Bagwell, AND Clemens off the books. That's a ton of money right there. Remains to be seen where they decide to spend it, but they will have it to spend and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Soriano and/or Carlos Lee playing for the Stros next year considering how poorly they've hit the baseball this time around.

But the Astros do have a number of gaping holes around the diamond and other than Hunter Pence, little in the way of homegrown talent to fill it with.

Which makes the possibility of the Astros pulling an Omar Minaya-esque offseason quite likely.

Unless Drayton McClane decides to pucker up tighter than a drum (which he has been accused of doing in the past) and pare back payroll instead.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Astros GM
really hasn't proved he's anything more than a caretaker. Houston lost a great GM when Hunsicker left. The team has huge holes in it and Oswald may or may not return. What the Astros do have is a steady stream of minor league prospects.

But, to the point, I fear this year like most years, we'll look to patch our holes rather than build a solid organization. I don't want a team that's ecstatic over being a wild card. I want one that's disappointed at losing in the WS.

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 25, 2006 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Couldn't agree more...
The question is: can such a team be built in one offseason?

by theprognosticator on Aug 25, 2006 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If they
re-sign Pierre, that leaves about 20 million to address LF, 2B, 3 starters, 3 bullpen arms and the 5 man bench.  The bullpen and the starters are the back-end (maybe not starters because I don't see counting on Prior as a #2).

How are they going to get one big bat and two starters for 20 million, with money left over for 11 other players?  Even at the minimum those 11 players cost about 4 million.  That's 16 left for three top players.  How can that happen?

I read what you said, but it doesn't work.  This is a team which supposedly can't pay for the parking garage they promised to build.  Do you really expect a significant salary increase?

by pwhalen on Aug 24, 2006 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unreasonable
You're delusional if you think the Cubs need that many additions to compete successfully. They don't need ANY bullpen work. Sure, it would be nice, but that isn't where the limited monies should go. They need one bat, and one blue chip starter. Those are the two moves of primary priority. Then they need a solid starter, one of the second tier FAs. Then, some of the bench can be filled by quality from within, like Theriot and possibly coats/fontenot. The backup catcher is slated to be Soto, and they could then sign 2 other bench options for 3 to 4 million total. Depending on whether they do get 2 starters or not, this is slightly over the 20 million you say they have to spend. I'm not saying they WILL do this...I'm saying IF they do this, they stand a good chance of contending. You are being completely unrealistic, and misevaluating this team if you really think they need 3 starters and 3 bullpen arms and 5 guys off the bench. Come back when you aren't talking fantasy.

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What???
Those are the holes they have (non-committed money) and the funds available to fill them.  This shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp.  

They don't need ANY bullpen work.

Based on a 12 pitcher staff they need seven relievers.  They 4 signed for next year already.  Dempster (5.3m), Howry (4), Eyre (4), and Rusch (3.25).  They need three more pitchers to fill out the pen.  If they keep they others they have, those people will cost them money above the 72 million they have committed for next year.  Probably about 1.5 more.

You are being completely unrealistic, and misevaluating this team if you really think they need 3 starters and 3 bullpen arms and 5 guys off the bench. Come back when you aren't talking fantasy.

Do you understand what I am saying now?  If they resign Pierre, that's 7-8 million (18.5 now left).  Soto, just over 300k.  4 more bench players at least two mil.  16 left.  Murton 400k.  15.6 left.  

Show me how you get a big bat and 3-4 starters for 15.6 million (include young cheap guys if you want), and then look at the lineup and tell me you really think they can contend.

by pwhalen on Aug 24, 2006 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously, I'm saying that they need to spend...
a little bit more than this absolute minimum. We aren't talking about a 120 million payroll here, but it will have to be raised 5-10 million. With the disasters of the last few years, this isn't out of the question for a sane organization in a large market. And aside from the bullpen arms you noted, we will assuredly use wuertz, Ohman, and either one of the many rookie starters we have or Carmen Pignatiello or something. You can't have your cake and eat it too. That bullpen would be pretty decent. Remember that a major reason why it has been so poor this year is that they've had to log so many innings, and because guys like Novoa have logged so many innings. With the exception of Rusch, Eyre and Howry are very good, Wuertz has the potential to be very good, and Ohman and Dempster are mostly solid (especially when Ohman is used primarily as a loogy).

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plus, you are embellishing some of these numbers..
Isn't the amount of money owed to guys like Murton already factored into this supposed 30 million spare dollars.

I don't see how it is completely impossible to fathom that they might raise the total payroll too. The Bluejays went out and spent...the Mets went out and spent. They are now dealing with a disgruntled fanbase. I'm not saying they WILL, but I'm saying that it is a distinct possibility.

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Go read the earlier diary on 2007 salary...
If this diary is right, then you are completely misinterpreting the amount of money available, assuming the Cubs won't be raising the payroll. You can see that diary Here . It also specifically says there that "the Cubs payroll will be around $64M before any free agent additions" so assuming the Cubs don't raise their payroll at all, they SHOULD have the money to make the moves I mentioned. You seem to think that the Cubs need to make 10+ free agent aquisitions, which I am saying again is unrealistic and not necessary for contention. I'm no expert on workings of Cubs payroll, so I'm sure someone else can speak to this. I do know that the Cubs would be significantly better if they made the three aforementioned major FA aquisitions, and then maybe 2-4 secondary moves.

I'm not too sure why you feel the need to be so condescending, because as of right now, it appears that you are the one that are unclear on the amount of money available in the coffer.

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The payroll
as it stands now is only for guaranteed money.  Murton, Ohman, even Zambrano among others are not guaranteed money.  

After raises for Zambrano and Ohman, re-signing Pierre if they go that way, and adding in the guys like Murton, Aardsman and Novoa who make league minimum PLUS the non-active members on the 40-man roster who earn $50,000 per year you're looking at $12-15 million MAX that this team has left to spend.  

It's not a pretty picture.

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If that is really the case...
and they don't plan on raising the payroll, then I agree, we are indeed screwed.

by Thelonious on Aug 24, 2006 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah!
Not only that, but it would have to be raised up to $115 million at the very least in order to get 3 top free agents that may make the team able to contend.

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The numbers in that diary
appear to be pretty accurate.  Prior will make more than $2.9 million though.  He'll make the same as he made this season.  Zambrano will be making upwards of $12 million.  He's arguably the best pitcher in the game...certainly the most durable, most effective pitcher over the last 4 years now.  If the Cubs go to arbitration with him and turn in $9 million, Zambrano would likely win as long as he didn't as for more than $14 or 15 million.  

What's more likely to happen is that the cubs and Z will agree on a multi-year deal, which in the end, $9 million may be what he gets in 2007 though Hendry doesn't like to backload contracts.  Z will get more than Derrek Lee got.  5/70 is a good bet.  If Z wants to risk staying healthy next season on going into free agency after '08 he'd be in the 7/100 range for a team like the Yanks or Sox.  

he'd be the best starting pitcher with the most upside who hasn't even entered his prime in a very long time.  If Z thinks he can stay healthy he would be wise to turn the Cubs down and enter free agency looking for more money, which he'd surely get.  

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why is there talk
about "competing" or "contending"?  Now if you mean "contending" or "competing" for a World Series title, than I'm in agreement.   Anything less than a title is failure.  

I'm looking for moves that point toward a World Championship, and does anyone honestly believe that Hendry is the man to make those moves?  That's the bottom line.  

The Cubs have a G.M. who has taken a team that was five outs away from the W.S. three years ago to this.  And I think he is in way over his head.

by Peoria Matt on Aug 24, 2006 8:47 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree, Matt.
Anything less than a World Series Championship is not good enough.  A berth in the playoffs may be better than it is right now, but it's not good enough.  

I don't see a point in building a team that "could" contend.  Let's build a team when the youngsters are ready to be productive around a core group of youngsters with several free agents mixed in that WILL contend not just for the wild card, but be legitimate contenders for the World Series.  year after year after year.  

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Remember this.
It is much easier to win a playoff series than it is to make the playoffs.

Yes, winning the World Series is the goal. It ought to be the goal of all thirty teams. But assuming you have put together a team good enough to make the playoffs, once they begin you start with an 0-0 record, and sometimes, the best team doesn't win.

Just ask the 2001 Mariners. Or ask the Yankees of the last four years, who are supposedly built this way.

Make the playoffs. That's a laudable goal. Contenders do this. Build a contender. That's step one.

by Al on Aug 24, 2006 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree, Al.
The best team doesn't always win with the watered down version of the playoffs today, but the goal has got to be to build a team that can win on an annual basis before anything else.  Do that, and you'll see a team that is a World Series contender.  The Braves have one world series during their 83 year run, but they were World Series contenders every single season.  

by Maddog on Aug 24, 2006 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think...
... we're talking about the same thing here, then. Making a team that contends on an annual basis IS building a "playoff team". Call it a "World Series contender" if you will, but I think we all agree that is the goal.

by Al on Aug 25, 2006 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are plenty of reasons
why this thread shows BCB is an intellegent, reasonable blog that can offer differing opinions
without (ok, maybe a little, but it's harmless) name calling. I've given up on most of the others because of their apparent hatred of the Cubs. That's fine. Love it. Go for it. If you even try to post a differing opinion on some other blogs -- you are ridiculed and insulted.
I commend the writers on the quality of posting that's found here -- some of it brutally frank, but without malice. That's what makes BCB interesting, and a great read.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 24, 2006 9:06 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree completely...
This is one of the few blogs where it seems all POVs are reasonably discussed (for the most part) and opinions respected without getting into too much rancor.

A lot of other blogs just seem like spewfests of venom and any other POV is laughed out of there.

by theprognosticator on Aug 24, 2006 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My only comment here
I have no problem with the cynicism after all after 100 years, why not?  However, I saw nothing wrong with the question on whether the Cubs could be the Tigers.  I'm not sure I agree but it was a valid question.  

Definitely a lot more valid and worthy of discussion than some of the Miguel Cabrera deals that were posted over the summer.  

by rlpete on Aug 24, 2006 9:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If you had told me
one year ago that I would have fajitas 2 night in a row I wouldn't have belieevd you.

What does that have to do with the 2007 cubs?  Absolutely nothing, which is the exact amount the 2006 Tigers will have with the 2007 Cubs, or the 2005 tigers and the 2006 cubs.

Why does there need to be a conversation here every day about how "anythng is possible", I think everyone knows that.  I gues its because the management can't/doesn't do anything that gives more of a chance then that, and people need to justify their fandom or why to watch this year.

Just for funsies, how many teams had a simliar record to the 2005 tigers and didn't have a great year the next?

no apologies for grammatical mistakes. and i booed myself the whole time I wrote this.  stay classy bcb.

by mike bornemann on Aug 25, 2006 12:37 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

lol...
...the last sentence. Hilarious.

by theprognosticator on Aug 25, 2006 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon
Start posting about the Cubs »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Reversal of opinion...Bradley will not be moved
Yelloncard_small
Baseball Picture Puzzles Overflow 1
Derrick_rose_poster_by_rokasm_small
You know you want him, Get it done Jim!
Yelloncard_small
Baseball Player Picture Puzzles
66103_small
The Ordinary Wizarding Levels of Milton Bradley & the 2009 Chicago Cubs

Recent FanPosts

Cubs_small
Cubs HR Over/Under
Cubs_ying_yang_small
OT Aged Stadiums
Small
Here's a thought
Jake_fox_small
25th Annual Cubs Convention
Bucky_small
OT: Annual Thanksgiving  Thread
Dscn2381_small
Cubs 2010 2B and "the L word"
Cubswin712_small
Is there anyway we trade some of our high-priced players?
Yelloncard_small
Milton Bradley Named NL "LVP" By Joe Posnanski
Self-portrait-4_small
Crazy Idea: Rob Quinlan
10424_528302137858_173702948_31567344_967269_n_small
OT: Big Ten Football Thread, Nov. 21

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Would you blow up the farm system for Halladay?
FanGraphs calls Grabow a "waste of cash."
Fangraphs hasn't given up on Geo, should you?
Baseball America's Top 10 Cubs Prospects
An animated tribute to the no-hitter that Pirates pitcher Dock Ellis threw on June 12, 1970. Simply...

Recent FanShots

Cubs' next major hire: marketing guru
Zambrano attends Bears game
Cubs install sign boards in bleachers to block Horseshoe Casino (Budweiser) building...
This one is for you sabermetricians
A Chicagoan, Part Of Cardinals Ownership Group, Dies
Making Fun Of Tim Lincecum's Hair...
Minor League Ball Interview With Billy Beane
Castillo Rumor Won't Go Away
Minor League FA's

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

It Is Only...

Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

Click here to order your copy, available now!

SPONSORS

Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges

Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: Cubs Convention 2010
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: General 2009 Ticket Exchange
Yelloncard_small
Ticket Exchanges: September 29-October 4 Homestand

Managing Editor

Yelloncard_small Al

Editorial Cartoonist

Toonmike_small toonmike

Contributors

Dsc_0139_small holy mackerel

100px-boisehawkscaplogo_small Josh77

Small shawndgoldman