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And Again.....Girardi available next year?

I know the possibility of Girardi managing in Chicago next year has been hashed/rehashed here before.  Until now, there really hasn't been good reason to believe that he would be let go from Florida- even he was quoted as saying that.  

However, some interesting rumblings continue to brew from South Florida;  the most recent being he Florida's owner basically not giving Girardi his due for the fantastic job he has done in Florida this year:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2562310

With Dusty managing every game lately as to make it impossible to even trust him as a bullpen coach next year, If Girardi is available- GET HIM!

I know there is extreme fondness around here for Fredi Gonzalez in Florida.  I've said it before; between the two, the known entity here is Girardi.  He has taken a minor league team and made it an almost-contender.  His players respond to him.  At this point, he would basically have a minor league team with a few outstanding players here in Chicago anyway next year.  I don't see a better fit for the Cubs at this point than Girardi, if available.  

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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I hope...
...I'm not reading to much into that but I think Girardi might be fired after the season.

"Managers obviously have some input during the course of the season ... but what's important is the product that's put on the field by the baseball department as well."

That's about as bad of an endorsement a manager can get.

cubsfan4life

by cubfan4life on Aug 26, 2006 9:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think
Girardi is any sort of miracle worker.  I'm not saying he hasn't done a good job in Florida--he has.

But here's the truth--the Marlins are four games under .500 and the idea that they are a minor league team is massively overstated.  Guys like Hanley Ramirez. Jeremy Hermida and Josh Willingham were very highly regarded at the beginning of the season by those in the know, and they've got one of the five best young players in the majors in Miguel Cabrera.  

He's managed to cobble together a pitching staff that was indeed quite questionable, if only because they were so young, when the season started, and for that he's been deservedly praised.

Girardi has done a good job  (Uggla?  Wow.) , but there was a lot more talent in Florida than a lot of the mainstream press was claiming, and a lot of people who knew the minor leagues were saying so in February.

I know people love Girardi because he was a hard-nosed Cub from Illinois, but he really hasn't performed miracles in Miami.  And the perfect manager for a young team of Marlins may not be the best manager for the roster of the 2007 Cubs.

I'm not against hiring Girardi, I'm just saying I wouldn't give up the bank or the farm system to get him.

by Josh77 on Aug 26, 2006 10:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The question you need to ask is...
Is he a signifigant improvement over Dust-bag?? The answer is an overwhelming yes....
Give Soriano 6 & 80. Oh wait, they won't give him more than Derrek Lee. :( Set your expectations low people.

by TheBeerBaron on Aug 26, 2006 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep
I can't see Girardi struggling over whether to play Bynum or Theriot. Not that Dusty ever really struggled with it, either.
"It's hard to put your finger on it. You have to have a dullness of mind and spirit to play here." --Jim Brosnan

by cubbiejulie on Aug 26, 2006 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No it's not
Because I'm assuming that Baker will not be managing the Cubs next season.  In any case, it isn't a matter of Girardi or Baker.  Clearly I would take Girardi in that case.

It's an issue of which one of the 40 or so possible candidates I would chose to replace Baker for next season.  If the Marlins decide to get rid of Girardi, I doubt they would let him manage the Cubs without compensation since he is under contract there for next season.  My point is simply that I wouldn't really give up anything of value to get him to manage the Cubs, not because I don't think he's a good manager, but because I think there are many other managerial candidates as strong out there who would not require compensation.

So the question that needs to be asked here is actually "Is he better than Fredi Gonzalez, Ron Roenicke, Bobby Valentine, Ron Washington et. al."  Baker has nothing to do with the question at hand.

by Josh77 on Aug 27, 2006 4:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.
The reason I haven't been on the "Girardi bandwagon" is that I assumed that the Marlins would want compensation if they let him go, because he IS under contract.

If they fire him, it's a far different story, and I would assume NO compensation would be required. How can a team fire someone and then demand compensation? That doesn't make sense.

Girardi has done a good job with a team expected to go nowhere, although as was pointed out elsewhere in this thread, it also has more talent than anyone gave it credit for.

I'd like to see Girardi considered for his managerial talents, and not just because he's a popular former Cub. I agree that IF he becomes a "free agent manager", he must be compared to the other possible choices, not to Dusty Baker, and not just because he's popular.

by Al on Aug 27, 2006 5:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Marlins will likely
contact organizations who will be seeking a manager and ask if they'd like to talk to Girardi.  If they would, they'd ask what that team would be willing to give up.  

That would be the first step anyway.  Several teams will have already hired managers--probably the Cubs as well.  If the Marlins don't find any takers and Loria really does have serious issues with Girardi, then he'll fire him.

I still think Girardi is managing the Marlins next season because it's doubtful any team is willing to give up a player for a manager who has managed one year.  I think Loria plays this out long enough that he's stuck with Girardi.

by Maddog on Aug 27, 2006 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL
This is hysterical.

A team contacting other teams to see if they want to talk to their manager so that they can get rid of him and be compensated in the process?  Where do you come up with that?

That would be like Jessica Simpson talking to her sister to see if she would take Nick what's his face of her hands so that when she divorces him she won't have to pay him anything.

Give me a break.

by jazzman56 on Aug 27, 2006 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seattle did this...
... with Piniella, but it was clear that Piniella wanted out, they had respect for him, and wanted to make a deal that was good for both sides.

If it's clear that the Marlins want Girardi out, why would any team say, "Oh, sure, we'll give you players!" No way -- any team that wants Girardi will simply wait till the Marlins fire him, if indeed they do that.

by Al on Aug 27, 2006 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps
if the Cubs sweetened the deal by including Rusch, the process might be accelerated.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 27, 2006 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If by "sweetened"..
..you mean glazed or jelly-filled, then you are probably right.
One more month!!!!!

by santo for prez on Aug 27, 2006 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very well put
However, can we really expect Jim to surrender his lifeline just to get a manager?
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 27, 2006 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps
But it WILL happen that way if Loria is considering firing Joe Girardi.  Loria sees the opportunity he has to get even a marginal player and will take advantage of it.  Other GMs should know that giving up a player to get a manager is never wise and that if Loria does contact them that they should wait and see how it works out.  I don't believe Loria gets rid of Joe Girardi unless he gets a team to give them some compensation.  If a team wants Girardi then they'll have to give something up.  

And it doesn't matter who contacts who, but I can assure you that if Loria is considering firing Girardi, he's already put the word out to Joe's agent who is putting together a short list for his client of teams that may have interest.  

by Maddog on Aug 27, 2006 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Assuming
the news story today is accurate, I would have to assume (and so would everyon else) that Girardi is toast.

Unless the owner has a change of heart, which is always an owner's perogative.

by jazzman56 on Aug 28, 2006 2:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even if saying Florida
IS a minor league team may be overstated, it in all reality is NOT that far off.   Yes Ramirez was highly touted-and has performed.  Hermida was probably the most touted of all, and thus far really hasn't put up the numbers expected.  Willingham has been OK.
My point is that it really is the OTHER players on that team, those not expected to perform and AA or AAA players on other teams, who have stepped up behind Cabrera.  

If that is the only caution regarding Girardi-that the team he has lead this year is probably better than everybody gave them credit for anyway- fine by me.  Then, shouldn't we expect even greater things from him in Chicago with a $100 million dollar payroll?

I agree that if it is going to cost a lot, then we'd need to be cautious in getting him.  Then again, who in our farm system is untouchable and who is the next star that's going to be the only missing piece for us to win the world series.

If available, I think Girardi's our guy in '07

by LuisSalazar on Aug 27, 2006 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching!
The Marlins young pitching has been very good and that is the reason they've been better than expected.  

Loria is right in this instance.  The front office did a stellar job putting a young team together that could compete immediately.  They traded every veteran they have so, in reality, it should be a very good young team.  

I said back in Spring Training that I'd rather have the Marlins team than the Cubs team knowing that they had the talent on their MLB roster and in their minor league organization that the Cubs did not.  They were clearly better than the Cubs were when this season started.  People just looked at the age of the team and the payroll and dismissed them.

Girardi has done an admirable job, but I remember several things in the Cubs/Marlins games this season that he did that would piss all of us off.  In fact, I remember thinking how very similar he was to Dusty Baker in his managerial decisions.  

The fact is that most managers are the same.  There's very little, if any, difference between one manager and another.  They look good when they have more talent and look bad as is Dusty's case when they lack talent.  This isn't to say that the Cubs should re-sign Dusty--they shouldn't.  It's not saying Dusty has done a good job--he hasn't, but there's no manager in the game that could lead this Cubs team into contention.  

This was a very bad team from the start that had little chance to contend.  

The manager is in part to blame, but it is not entirely his fault.  Jim Hendry, in my opinion, deserves a much larger share of the blame than Dusty and the players deserve a larger share than Dusty as well.

We can blame the manager for leading a terrible team to a terrible record or we can hope that the real issue is addressed this offseason--a serious lack of talent up and down this organization.  if it is, the Cubs, and whoever they sign to be their maanger will start to look better.

by Maddog on Aug 27, 2006 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Valid points, however
while I agree that most managers are really pretty similar, to say that the Marlins were 'clearly better' than the Cubs at the beginning of the season is a stretch.  Yes, when they traded away their veterans they were going to get top notch young talent-does that mean their talent  was going to be a possible contender or even major league talent?-that's a stretch.  

Their kids have played great!  Our proven talent here has not.  Our organization also miscalculated big time (Prior, Wood, Miller, Cedeno) etc.., BUT, I don't think you found too many at the beginning of the year who would say that the Marlins were better than the Cubs.  Were the Cubs ever serious contenders on paper this year? No.  However, their performance compared to the Marlins' performance has simply been uninspiring.  

Again, is this entirely the manager's fault? Absolutely not. Do I think that Dusty (with the way he's managed the last couple of years and with the way the Cub players have responded to him) would do as good of a job in Florida as Girardi has?  Absolutely not.  

If that is the case, Girardi, for as 'similar' as he is to Baker, has proven in a short time that he's 'different' enough to hopefully make a difference-hopefully here in Chicago.

That being said, I think everybody agrees that the entire organization needs some work.

by LuisSalazar on Aug 27, 2006 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Luis...
It comes down to ceiling for me when I make that kind of assessment.  The Marlins team had more talent than THIS Cubs team.  Whether or not it would pan out THIS season, like you, I didn't know for sure, but the talent was there.  Although miscalculation may be one way to say what the Cubs did, I think it's a bit misleading to include Wood, Prior and Miller as part of the miscalculation.  

Miller was told by his doctor and Hendry knew that this season would be a difficult one and that it would be a long haul for him to get to 100%.  Hendry has admitted this.  Hendry didn't tell us that because he didn't want us to know.

Wood had the same surgery and has, himself, stated that he knew it would likely be a long season and that setbacks were possible.  Again, Hendry knew this and did nothing about it.

Prior's holiday sickness should have been reason enough for Hendry to plan to move forward without him, but he didn't.  Furthermore, Prior's injury was reported early in Spring Training by Will Carroll and although the Cubs brass denied this, it's obvious Carroll was reporting the truth.  

I wish it was mere miscalculation on Hendry's part.  That's something that you would expect to have as a random occurrence.  Not all things a GM is going to do is going to turn out, but some should.

In this case, Hendry failed miserably with knowledge of Wood and Miller's unlikely success in the 2006 season and counted on a guy who looked miserably the 2nd half of 2005, spent 2 weeks in the hospital over the holidays, and clearly had shoulder issues at the very beginning of Spring Training.  

This is a case of mismanagement bordering on negligence in my opinion.  

The injury to Lee could not have been predicted, but a regression to the mean should have been.  Hendry did nothing to protect the Cubs offense for what he should have known would have been a less stellar season for Lee.  John Mabry was answer enough for a back-up role to Jim Hendry.

The sad thing about this is that none of this is new.  It's not like this is the first season Hendry has mismanaged this team.  It happened to almost the same extend the previous season and Hendry's response was signing Neifi Perez and Glendon Rusch to multi-year deals before November 15th.  And doing this when Rusch had a player option he would have been silly to decline.  Even worse, he signed both these guys, right off the bat I remind you, to 2-year deals.  

Hendry did first what he should have done last.  Save your money for your most needed spots and fill in with the left over money after you FIX what's wrong.  Hendry filled out the roster and left himself with less money to do what he would have liked to have done.  

This was indeed a terrible team to start the season.  Even IF HEALTHY, this is a team that's not significantly better than it has been.  They're probably 10 games under .500 as opposed to 22 games.  MAYBE that much of an improvement.  

Now, if IF HEALTHY means production from Prior like August/September of 2003 and 2005 production from Derrek Lee with 2004 production from Aramis Ramirez and a better season from Maddux as well as a 2003-like season from Woody, then I'd agree it's a team that was better than the Marlins.  It may have even been good enough to be in Wild Card contention this season.  However, you just can't count on that.  None of it.  Prior is not and never really has been the pitcher he was down the stretch in '03.  Woody has NEVER been able to stay healthy.  Derrek Lee was a .270ish hitter before his career season last year and Maddux was in decline.  Aramis Ramirez and Carlos Zambrano were really the only 2 players you could expect similar production from.  

by Maddog on Aug 27, 2006 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

maddog
You're absolutely correct with your comments above.  I'm in no way defending Hendry at all.  
He did, however, miscalculate big time at the beginning of the season-essentially relying on his pitching rotation to be healthy Prior, Wood, Maddux, Zambrano and possibly Miller by June 1.  

If he truly knew that those guys would not be ready by then, then he deserves to lose his job.  This team was not that bad on paper when the season started.  Assuming healthy-performing position players and a well-stocked bullpen, this team was really only a decent starting rotation away from contending, which is better than the Marlins could say at the beginning of the year.  

I think we agree on most points.  I really think that Hendry, inappropriately so, thought his horses would be ready (Wood, Prior etc..) and was banking on performances from his guys like they did have in the past.  If he knew all along they wouldn't be and didn't do anything about it, we are all in trouble for the next 2 seasons.

by LuisSalazar on Aug 28, 2006 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I find myself...
... in total agreement with your main points, which are, if I'm reading them right:
  • this team was VERY poorly constructed this year, and
  • Dusty Baker made it worse, but NO ONE could have done much better.
BOTH of those situations need to be addressed in the off-season, and IMO, very QUICKLY once the free-agent signing season begins.

I have written this before, but I think you'll agree, that had the Cubs gotten off to a poor start, Jim Hendry would not have gotten his contract extension and the club would now be looking for a new GM. However, having GIVEN that extension, you can surely understand why Andy MacPhail doesn't want to back off of it. SHOULD he? Probably so. But that's not how upper managers work, not only in baseball, but in MOST businesses.

by Al on Aug 27, 2006 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's pretty much what I was saying.
I'm not sure Hendry would have been fired though if the Cubs had gotten off to a slower start.  It's distinctly possible, but I get the feeling it was much more related to dotting the i's and crossing the t's in terms of his contract than it was the Tribune rewarding him with a successful offseason.

I doubt contracts can done as quickly as that, but it's possible.

My guess is that the contract was mostly done and agreed upon before the season began and then once the lawyers got ahold of it, it slowed it down.  

by Maddog on Aug 27, 2006 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps so...
... I was just saying that if it had been a little slower -- say, if it had been delayed till the disaster of May -- it wouldn't have happened at all. Hendry wouldn't have been FIRED -- he just wouldn't have been renewed for 2007 and beyond.

by Al on Aug 28, 2006 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maddog...
..I agree with you regarding the Marlins pitching, and I think they are for real as pitchers.  But here is a rebuttal to your comment about their young pitching...this rebuttal is from one of your previous posts...

"What are the odds that just ONE young pitcher who made his debut on a team turns in a respectable performance the following season?  5% maybe?  And you're suggesting that THREE of them could do this?  Again, HIGHLY UNLIKELY!  Not impossible by any means...but the chances are slim to none."

While I agree with you on the Marlins young pitchers, you don't seem to agree with yourself on this matter.

Just sayin:)

One more month!!!!!

by santo for prez on Aug 27, 2006 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I did contradict myself!
Thanks for pointing that out.  let me clarify why I do believe the 2 instances are at least a little different.  The Marlins selected nearly Major League ready talent when they traded their players, plus they play in a pitcher's park.  This talent had a much better shot of succeeding at the MLB level than your average farm system would expect.  

Add 5 or 6 top pitching talents that are close to MLB ready and you increase your odds that they succeed.  I generally base what I said previously on the average farm system.  Pitchers are very strange creatures.  It's the most inconsistent performance on the field.  Each season really represents a small sample size and in the minor leagues, that already small sample size is even smaller from one year to the next.  

This is the reason I'm sure you've noticed that one pitcher can have one hell of a minor league season and then not be that good the following season.  

I didn't really take a look a the talent the Marlins got in return in their trades except those the Cubs sent, but I'd guess that each of them had been fairly consistent among other minor league pitchers.  It was less hit and miss than the average prospect.

For what it's worth, despite my total dislike for Juan Pierre (I'll admit I really liked the addition when it happened--I thought he'd be a catalyst for this team), the Cubs did not give up much talent to get him.  Regardless of what's been said or written or what Nolasco has done this season, he's a pitcher with a low ceiling who put up mediocre stats at the minor league level.  It's possible he "turned the corner" but it is unlikely.  It's more likely he's been helped by the pitcher's park he pitches in and that the league is unfamiliar with him.  Also, there's probably been quite a bit of luck to go along with his success.  

In the end, this deal will only look bad in that these players could have gotten the Cubs a player that had more value than Pierre.  

by Maddog on Aug 27, 2006 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Girardi
Reading between the tea leaves, Hendry doesn't seem wowed by Girardi.  Of course, I'm not wowed by Hendry.  Do us a favor Jim.  Resign.  I'd rather have Andy McPhail pick the next manager versus you.  Not that good old Andy is a ball of fire or anything.  

Is Jim Essian still looking for work?      

by BlueBooHoo on Aug 26, 2006 10:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

please oh please oh please
can the Marlins have a day game on the last day of the season, fire Girardi, then the Cubs have a night game and fire Dusty? Hendry won't be able to say that Girardi was unavailable.

I want Girardi simply because he "gets it." He is a Cub man, a fan and a player, and he would make the perfect manager for the Cubs. he would have both young talent and good veteran talent (Lee, Amram, Jones) to put together a good team.

by jag alskar bjornungarna on Aug 26, 2006 11:30 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

While...
...Girardi may need another season to become more of a complete manager, primarily due to some of his in game strategic mistakes. I think it's a little unfair of Loria and others to not pass along some of the credit to Girardi for what should be deemed a successful season. Yes, Girardi has had some of the organizations better prospects playing for him but some of these guys, being as young as they are, would still be in AA on most other teams. I think for that reason alone Girardi should be commended.
cubsfan4life

by cubfan4life on Aug 27, 2006 8:51 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Girardi
fits our needs in so many ways that I find it hard to even think about someone else managing other than him.
  1. He would be emminently acceptable to the Trib and would allow them to seemlessly move on without baggage from the Baker years.
  2. Local boy makes good. My favorite moment this year was the shutout by O'Malley. Imagine the joy if Girardi began winning.
  3. What was Girardi's goal for the Marlins? The World Series. Not being competetive. Not reaching .500. That must be our goal. I am sick of hearing how little we need to change and compete for a playoff spot. I expect great, not good.
  4. Interviews with the his players paint a picture of greatness. He is respected and has earned their trust.
  5. He wants to be here and this isn't about money. Remember how ecstatic O'Malley was when he made the move to Wrigley. That's Girardi all over again.
  6. He's smarter than most of the stiffs in management. He plans ahead. He's proactive, not reactive.
  7. I doubt Loria will wait to fire his butt after the season. He's just to volatile. He'll want to show how powerful he is to Girardi. And he's still seething over the way he got treated by Joe. So I don't see compensation being an issue. Even if we have to part with someone, just do it. Girardi is that important to this team's future.
  8. He's been with the Yanks for a few years and watched how the big boys do it. It's time we considered ourselves big boys and acted that way. You want stability. Girardi is the the guy that can be here 25 years. Can we say that about anyother potential manager.
Ok, here is my personal rumor and conspiracy rolled into one. Hendry decided a while back to cut loose Baker after the season. He and MacPhail decide to test the waters on Girardi's availability. An intermediary who knows both the Cubs and Joe makes a trip to see Joe and drops a hint that if he were available, he's confidant the Cubs would love seeing him in Cubbie Blue. Of course he's interested but he's under contract. Well, knowing Loria's irrational behavior, he begins doing things that are likely to piss him off. It accelerates into the infamous firing/unfiring episode. It likely will end with Girardi cut loose and the Cubs picking up his contract rather than having to offer a player to Florida.

Added attraction. Baker hears about the Cubs intention to try and get Girardi. Hendry has already told Dusty that he won't be resigned. He offers to allow Baker the option of going now or after the season. If it's after the season, Baker can also say he left because the atmosphere isn't conducive to success. Baker begins a campaign to illustrate why it isn't his type of place. Included in that is the racist nature of the city and it's fans. Voila! See, they replaced me with a white guy. Everyone can draw their own conclusions.

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Aug 27, 2006 1:11 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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