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A Different Take on Girardi

I didn't see anything else about this, so I thought I'd pass it along to see reactions.  Though I am reluctant to give Rick Morrissey any credit, his article does highlight this detail about Girardi's tenure in Florida (which, I suppose, should be obvious):

"But it needs to be pointed out the Marlins have a history of fielding low-budget teams and having success. They scout well. The short story: The Marlins' success this season wasn't a solo production."

I'm not saying Girardi fits or he doesn't, but looking back over the Marlins' long-term low-budget success (must we Cub fans be reminded?) is a nice wake-up call to reconsider just how much impact Girardi's really had.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-060923morrissey,1,5969800.column?col l=cs-home-utility

peace,
hoosiercubbie

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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What...
...really needs to be paid attentionto IMO is the fact that Joe Girardi thinks he knows better than Dave Dombrowski, who's managed to win a WS without Girardi.

by jolietconvict on Sep 24, 2006 5:15 PM CDT reply actions  

When was this?
Isn't Dombrowski with the Tigers now?

by hoosiercubbie on Sep 24, 2006 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think there's something to be said
for the job Girardi's done while having one of the worst excuses for an owner in all of sports looking over his shoulder the entire time.
So much for the law of averages.

by JDay on Sep 24, 2006 5:25 PM CDT reply actions  

Larry Benifast
is the genius in Florida.  The fact that he has grown to loathe Girardi along with Jeffrey Loria speaks volumes to me.  Benifast is the best GM in baseball that nobody ever talks about.  

by BlueBooHoo on Sep 24, 2006 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Question: Is he
as good a GM as you think Izturis is a SS? I really value your opinion.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Sep 24, 2006 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Girardi
Regardless my lukewarm opinion of Joe Girardi, I believe he stands minimal chance of being a serious candidate for the Cub job.  Right or wrong, that's just the way I see things shaking out.  I'd love to see Mike Maddux and Bud Black be candidates, but doubt that will happen too.  Hendry will probably focus on the following...Fredi Gonzalez, Bob Brenly, ??? Acta (Mets), Jose Oquendo, Jim Fergosi.  A darkhorse candidate may be Larry Bowa.  

Something tells me Fergosi is going to wind up being the choice.  I think Gonzalez is going to be snatched up very quickly by Florida.

by BlueBooHoo on Sep 24, 2006 5:29 PM CDT reply actions  

Fregosi...
... eh. I read today he may get the Giants job, which would be fine with me.

You credit Beinfest for a lot of the Marlins success, which is true, but Morrissey also had it right when he said they have good scouting.

The Cubs need some of that, almost more than they need a good manager.

by Al Yellon on Sep 24, 2006 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Giants
A friend of mine who is from the Bay area tells me that Brenly's near the top of the list as well.

DmL

by dmlichte on Sep 24, 2006 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Brenly
Wasn't he a Giants coach at one time?

by Al Yellon on Sep 24, 2006 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep
He joined Roger Craig's staff and stuck around when Dusty got there.  And he played for them for a few years.  Was even an All-Star there.

My question is, if Brenly goes, can the Cubs get Dave O'Brien from ESPN this year or is he still under the type of contract where ESPN can refuse to allow the Cubs to talk to him.

by DSZ on Sep 24, 2006 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

2 things
First O'Brien is a PbP-guy not a color man.  Second IIRC it wasn't that ESPN wouldn't let him talk to the Cubs, it's that the Cubs will not let their broadcasters do any other broadcasts.  For my money there is no better radio voice than Dan Shulman.  He and Soup Campbell make a great team.

by jolietconvict on Sep 24, 2006 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right and wrong
You're right about O'Brien.  My mind had a lot in it that my post did not.  If Brenly leaves, the Cubs will have an opportunity to revamp the broadcast team.  If Brenly leaves, I would hope the Cubs would  once again offer the job to Steve Stone.  With Baker gone, Stone can claim victory and return to the booth.  And with the opportunity to revamp at hand, they could replace Kasper with O'Brien, who I think is one of the best in the business.

As for the ESPN/Cubs think with O'Brien, your memory fails you.  ESPN would not let him out of his contract.  http://web.archive.org/web/20041129165355/http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/col_rozner.asp?intid=383 10260

by DSZ on Sep 24, 2006 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would think...
... that if Brenly does leave for a managing job, this would be the PERFECT time to bury the hatchet with Stone and rehire him. Remember, he wasn't fired. He quit, and he had specific reasons for doing so.

This would be another gesture which would be extremely well-received by the vast majority of Cubs fans. The Cubs NEED good PR right now. This would be a good way of getting some.

Whether they replace Kasper or not if they did this is irrelevant. Stone's good enough that he could make Kasper sound better.

by Al Yellon on Sep 24, 2006 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

While I agree
something tells me the 60 year old, recently married Steve Stone would tell the Cubs to pound sand.  Stone has a nice gig with ESPN and WSCR which enables him to spend quality time down in Scottsdale during the baseball season.  

by BlueBooHoo on Sep 25, 2006 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

O'Brien
As you said, ESPN would not let O'Brien out of his contract, which is unfortunate as it seems that Schulman and Miller, the lead radio and TV broadcasters are going to stick around. IIRC, O'Brien was given an extention on his ESPN contract after they refused to let him leave for the Cubs.

As for Stone, I don't think its out of the question that he could return if Brenly leaves. I think all parties involved are mature enough to put the Dusty stuff aside and not even make it seem that he ever existed if all works out. I happen to like Len Kasper and I do think that he and Stone would make a nice team. Ultimately I could see a situation, when Ron Santo is no longer a Cubs broadcaster, where the Cubs could rotate the PBP announcer between TV and Radio, as they did when Harry Caray and Brennaman were there.

DmL

by dmlichte on Sep 24, 2006 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes...
... as others have stated, he was a coach under Roger Craig. As I am sure you remember, Brenly was part of the three man booth with Thom Brennaman and Ron Santo (rumor that I've heard was that it was just supposed to be Brennaman and Brenly, but Santo got pissed and the Cubs placated him). Brenly left the Cubs broadcast booth to take the coaching job with the Giants.

DmL

by dmlichte on Sep 24, 2006 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well,
it helps when you're trading away MLB talent and getting elite prospects in return.  Even the Cubs wouldn't screw that up.  Their problem is they don't see the value in trading MLB talent for prospects, which is really sad.  

I'll guarantee you that if you were to ask Jim Hendry if Brandon Wood and Ervin Santana have as much value as Aramis Ramirez he'd laugh.  Sadly, the joke would be on him...again.

by Maddog on Sep 24, 2006 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's a paradox, isn't it?
Because isn't Hendry the guy who always overvalues his OWN prospects?

by Al Yellon on Sep 24, 2006 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's not the same thing.
You can overvalue your own prospects, and still not understand how a trade of MLB talent for prospects can make the team better.  Also, I don't believe I've ever said Hendry overvalues his own prospects.  That's not something I would say.  I don't necessarily disagree with it, but it's not that simple.  And I'm sure you know that I have no problem explaining my thoughts in great detail.  

by Maddog on Sep 24, 2006 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

No...
... sorry for the confusion. I didn't say YOU said that Hendry feels he overvalues his prospects.

Nevertheless, I do think he does, which is why a lot of Cub "prospects" have faded away without producing either for the Cubs or for another team. Examples: Bobby Brownlie and David Kelton, who were at one time highly valued prospects who MIGHT have brought value in trade, but who wound up becoming useless.

I do agree in general that trading for prospects, if done properly, can improve your team. This year's Marlins are a perfect example of that.

by Al Yellon on Sep 24, 2006 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure that's...
overvaluing though.  In my opinion (I know you've been sitting on pins and needles waiting for it...lol), Hendry gets an idea what a prospect is worth via trade and then is unwilling to adjust that value with how well, or poorly, they've played.  

Let's take Todd Wellemeyer as an example here.  Todd had some pretty decent value back in 2003 and even in parts of 2004.  However, he began losing value pretty much the instant he started pitching for the big league team.  He was overmatched.  Hendry failed to adjust the value he thought he deserved to get out of him and in the end, he got nothing of value.

What Hendry didn't understand, and still doesn't, is that by trading him in 2004 for less value than he could have gotten in 2003 is still MORE value than he ended up getting out of him.  

Hendry has this idea that if a guy begins to lose value that he can fix it.  A little time to make some adjustment and the value is right back up there and he'll pull the trigger.  That's unlikely to happen because MOST players do not succeed.  

This is the reason why I continue to say that Rich Hill will be traded this offseason.  Hill is the first of numerous players Hendry has failed to get any value out of that has actually reached the point where his value was highest, and in Hill's case, perhaps even higher than it was back in 2005 before he made his MLB debut.  Hendry will trade Rich Hill this offseason.  

Unfortunately, Hill's improvements probably embolden Hendry's position with prospects and he'll continue to get no value out of almost all of them.

I suppose this is technically overvaluing of prospects, but I don't believe Hendry overvalues them from the start.  It's the decline in value that Hendry just can't accept.

This is also the same reason why I said that trading Mark Prior before the 2006 season was the best move Hendry could do.  Everybody said that Prior didn't have as much value as he once did and that you had to get it back up there.  Well, it would have been better to trade him last offseason than now.  It's now at the point where you can't trade the guy.  Nobody in their right mind would trade for him.  So you're stuck with him unless you want to release him.  

It would have been better to get some value than no value.  People all too often fail to realize when they argue about increasing a player's value that it's more likely that value will only be decreased.  It's more likely that the Cubs, as I said, would have been trading Mark Prior last offseason when his value was as high as it was ever going to be from that point forward.  

The Cubs had one thing going for them with regards to Prior and his value last offseason.  He had never had a serious arm injury.  Now he's had.  Rotator cuff and his labrum.  The guy now has slim to none odds of EVER even becoming the average pitcher he was in 2004 and 2005.  Good thing we hung onto him.

by Maddog on Sep 24, 2006 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Re: Trading Hill
While I believe that Hill has excellent value now, I believe that it's generally imprudent to sell assets that you have a shortage of. Right now he's cheap and probably wouldn't get us a suitable replacement.

Let's wait a year and see what our pitching prospects turn out to be before we see how the staff looks going into 2008.

Obviously if we have an overwhelming offer, it's another case. And no way do I trade him for someone 30+ no matter who it is. I'd like to see spend all of 2007 evaluating our youngsters

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Sep 25, 2006 1:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree tharr.
I wouldn't trade him either.  I actually wouldn't take on any players at this point.  Let the youngsters play.  I just think that Hendry will trade Hill this offseason.  

by Maddog on Sep 25, 2006 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't, but...
... if he does, clearly, Hill's trade value has never been higher, wouldn't you agree?

by Al Yellon on Sep 25, 2006 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Definitely!
I see one of two deals this offseason.  Both involve Felix Pie and Rich Hill.  Pie and Hill to Florida for Miguel Cabrera.  Perhaps even Pie, Murton, and Hill if Pie/Hill isn't enough.  I'd think it would be though.  The other deal is one Hendry went after last offseason.  Hill and Pie to Baltimore for Miguel Tejada.  

I'd be in favor of a Pie and Hill deal to Florida for Cabrera.  He's one of the best in the game and is only 23 years old.  And he'll be relatively cheap the next 2 seasons.  Pie and Hill for Tejada is just digging yourself another hole as far as i'm concerned.  

Also, I expect Cabrera will play 3rd base for the Cubs because I just don't see the Cubs offering the kind of cash they'll need to in order to keep Ramirez.  

by Maddog on Sep 25, 2006 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd do that deal, too.
I differ from you in that I see Ramirez staying. In that case, the Cubs could consider a Jones/Murton platoon in LF, while playing Cabrera in RF -- that means, of course, they'd either have to re-sign Pierre, or go get another CF.

by Al Yellon on Sep 25, 2006 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Jacque Jones will not platoon
He was signed as a starter and is paid starter money.  He had one of the best seasons of his career even though his lefty/right splits were terrible.  

Regardless of whether people think he should platoon, it would be a shocking move. Here's why:

Can anyone think of a similar player, someone making $5 million per year, who is playing at or above his career norms, who has been forced to platoon?  It just doesn't happen.

by DSZ on Sep 25, 2006 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Trot Nixon

by Santos Sorrow @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Sep 25, 2006 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Try again
But this time please offer some evidence.

Nixon started to platoon with any regularity in 2003, the year after a 2002 season in which he had career lows (full seasons only) in batting average, OBP and OPS.

You are right that the Red Sox, who have a demonstrated willingness to spend 50% more than the Cubs on salaries, did platoon someone with a huge contract.

But Jones hasn't declined the way Nixon had.  In fact, he's in the midst of his best season in 4 or 5 years.  I can't imagine demoting him to a platoon player would go over well with him and perhaps some veteran teammates, no matter how statistically justifiable it may be.

by DSZ on Sep 25, 2006 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

You do have a point...
... but that's one of the traits of a good manager; he can get players to subjugate their own desires and needs for the good of the team. Baker was very poor at this.

by Al Yellon on Sep 25, 2006 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps, but
as I've pointed out, a move like this would be if not entirely unprecedented, an extraordinarly rare treatment of a $5 million/year player.

The blame here, if there is blame, must go to Jim Hendry.  He game him starter money.  Jones had terrible splits last year and he's always been better against righties.  I don't care about the salary as I have little doubt the Cubs could spend significantly more on salaries and still turn a profit, but it should have been made clear to Jones when he signed either that he was going to platoon from the start or that it was a possibility if he continued to struggle against lefties.  A midseason switch this year would have shocked me.  With the expected change in management, a new opportunity arises to approach Jones about platooning.

But, it is worth noting that Jones' overall numbers this year make him an above average offensive outfielder.  Of the problems the Cubs have, Jacque Jones' numbers against lefties are nowhere close to the top.

by DSZ on Sep 25, 2006 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you suggesting
that it wouldn't be in the best interest of the Cubs to get a quality platoon partner with Jones?

Frankly, I don't give a damn what Jones is making. He is not being asked to take a cut in salary. If he has a problem, tell him to work hard enough to improve his numbers against lefties. Other than that, it's his problem, not mine. The team is diminished with him playing against lefties.

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Sep 25, 2006 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

i do not want to be a part of this travesty
1060west -- sans libert? de bl?mer, il n'est point d'?loge flatteur.

by gaius marius on Sep 26, 2006 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

in today's news
BERLIN - Berlin's Deutsche Oper has removed the provocative staging of a Mozart opera from its schedule for fear of enraging Muslims, the opera house said in a statement Monday.
One of three opera houses in the German capital, it cancelled director Hans Neuenfels's production of "Idomeneo", a 1781 drama set in ancient Crete, because authorities warned it could present an "incalculable security risk".

In the staging, which sparked audience protests during its premiere in December 2003, King Idomeneo presents the lopped-off heads of Poseidon, Jesus, Buddha and the Prophet Mohammed and displays them on four chairs.

German critics saw the show at the time as a radical attack on religion and religious wars.

Musical director Kirsten Harms decided to cancel the new staging of the opera, scheduled for November, to avert "any danger to the audience or staff" that could arise from violent protests.

The opera itself deals with resistance to sacrifices demanded by the gods but makes no mention of any of the world's major religions.

The cancellation comes two weeks after Pope Benedict XVI sparked Muslim anger on a visit to his native Germany when he quoted from a medieval text that criticized some teachings of the Prophet Mohammed as "evil and inhuman".

And the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten set off a firestorm in the Muslim world when it printed 12 caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed last September and other, mostly European, newspapers followed suit.

Islam considers images of the prophet to be blasphemous.

09/25/2006 18:37 GMT

1060west -- sans libert? de bl?mer, il n'est point d'?loge flatteur.

by gaius marius on Sep 26, 2006 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Scouting question
Scouting, which amounts to talent evaluation, is obviously a longtime Cubs weakness. Why is it that noone has ever thought to just go out and pay the Twins' and Marlins' scouts with a track record an amount far above the going rate? In other words, make them an offer they can't refuse?

by cubz1963 on Sep 24, 2006 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

I see your point, but I suspect . . .
they won't spend because the Cubs just don't value scouting.  Period.  So why would they "waste" money on that?

by hoosiercubbie on Sep 24, 2006 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Cubs DO value scouting!
That is the problem.  They value it too much.  Gary Hughes has said that he just doesn't understand the guys with the stats (sabermetrics) and Jim Hendry is on Hughes' side.  This team hasn't adopted the statistical analysis they need in order to maximize their scouting efforts.  Instead, they stick to some absurdly out-dated notion that scouting is the best way to spot talent--that watching a guy play for 3 or 4 days is better than using statistical analysis.  It's not that stats are better than scouting.  They aren't.  The two need to be used 50-50 and right now the Cubs are 100-0 scouting/stats.  

Statistical analysis would have saved us from the misery of Ronny Cedeno.  Anybody who can look at the simplest of stat sheets knew this guy had no future at the MLB level.  It was the most obvious thing I'd ever seen.  But the Cubs didn't think so.  They thought that hitting .355 over 60 games at AAA had more value than the previous 5 years.  They're idiots!

Cedeno, in a quality organization would have been gone 3 years ago and the chance for him to ever make it never would have happened.  This is what the Cubs need to do.  The Cubs are managing their farm system using 1950s techniques.  Any organization that does this is bound to fail.  It's no wonder the Cubs suck.  Really, it's not, guys.  They do suck for a reason.  Well, more than one, but this is a large one.

by Maddog on Sep 24, 2006 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

You know...
... I agree again. One of the things I got out of Moneyball, is that NEITHER statistical analysis NOR traditional scouting in and of themselves, can provide useful information in this day and age. It's a combination of the two that makes for the best organizations, just as you wrote.

This is something that also has to be addressed. Maybe Tim Wilken, over time, can have some influence in this area.

by Al Yellon on Sep 24, 2006 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps!
I think Wilken is much more in line with Hughes and Hendry though.  And I don't really blame him.  He's a scout.  

What needs to be done is exactly what the A's and Red Sox do.  If your scouts turn in a list of 6 outfielders (in real life it would be larger than this, but this is just for the sake of simplicity) in the organization they think have a bright future, that's great.  What you need to do is have a statistical analysis team on staff that also turns in 6 names.  More than likely, as Bill James notes in one of his books, 3 of the names are likely to appear on both lists.  THESE are the guys that you put most of your development time into.  

Let one compliment the other.  This minimizes the chances that some player like Ronny Cedeno makes it to the major leagues.  It doesn't eliminate those chances.  Stats and Scouting together are still fallible and in most cases of prospect, they're still going to fail--it's what prospects do.  But you should be able to increase the odds of success for some while eliminating others.  

by Maddog on Sep 24, 2006 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Look at the Marlins championship teams
1997 Marlins

Kevin Brown
Livian Hernandez
Al Leiter
Charles Johnson
Bobby Bonilla
Edgar Rentaria
Moises Alou
Cliff Flloyd
Gary Sheffield

2003 Marlins

Josh Beckett
A.J. Burnett
Carl Pavano
Dontrelle Willis
Brad Penney
Ivan Rodriguez
Derek Lee
Luis Castillo
Mike Lowell
Miguel Cabrera
Juan Pierre

Dave Dombrowski was named GM in 1997 and Beinfest joined the team in 2002. And while they both are considered excellent at their skills, they have not been involved in the long term success of the team.

The Marlins team of 2006 is truly a low low budget squad and their success cannot be overstated. Much of that success is due to the excellent managerial skills of Girardi. Name another manager who would have achieved what Joe has done. Imagine that club's record with Dusty at the helm.

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Sep 24, 2006 7:02 PM CDT reply actions  

Not to take anything away from the Marlins
but part of their success this year is that the NL is awful.  You have to give them credit for taking advantage of the situation but when teams like the Reds, Astros and Phillies are playoff contenders, it is a bad year.  This is probably the worse Cardinal team is years and they will probably win the division unless they lose the rest of their games (which sometimes seems like a possibility).  

by rlpete on Sep 25, 2006 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Bull
Look at the stable of young talent...superstar Miguel Cabrera, superstars in the making in Hanley Ramirez and Jerimy Hermida, Dontrelle Willis, Josh Johnson, Scott Olsen, Anibal Sanchez, Ricky Nolasco, acquisition of Dan Uggla.  

Florida is blessed with an exceptionally gifted front office.  That is key to their success and their continued pattern of relative quick turnarounds after selling off player assets.  

by BlueBooHoo on Sep 25, 2006 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

As usual
your opinions are insipid and therefore your comments are irrelevant.
Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Sep 25, 2006 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fregosi?
Please, lets not dust him off. Perhaps an in-your-face, abrasive manager might do some good next year. I doubt Aramis will be back next year, but could you imagine Girardi letting him dog it like he has so many times this year? Could you imagine him mouthing the lame ass excuses like Dusty did when a guy dogged it, or did something braindead on the bases. Dusty kept on telling us how just because he didn't publicly berate the players, it didn't mean he didn't get on them in private. Well, it sure wasn't working if he was dressing them down in the clubhouse.

by Nibbles on Sep 24, 2006 8:55 PM CDT reply actions  

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