Why Wait?: Fire Dusty Now
Update [2006-9-5 19:44:58 by billy pilgrim]:I changed the title of this diary because I really want to hear some reasons for keeping him around any longer. As a long-time lurker of BCB it's about time I contribute and I simply need to rant. It is time to fire baker. Not in the off-season. Not moments after the final game. Today.
In today's Tribune, Maddux gives us two reasons...
I'm a first time poster, so be kind, or rant along...
see Louis Salazar's diary for more on the Maddux article...
http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/story/2006/9/4/212428/7700
Here's the link to the trib
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-060904gregmaddux,1,7236812.story?col l=cs-home-headlines
1.When speaking about his new clubhouse...
"That's the way it should be," Maddux said. "You can actually get ready for the game. It's easier to talk, it's just ... quieter."
2. When speaking about the guys playing behind him, he said...
"I've seen more plays here in a month than I've seen in the last three months." And, "Turning double plays, I don't know how many we've turned here, but there have been some you can't believe."
I was excited when the Cubs signed Maddux, because he simply embodies professionalism, and I hoped it would rub off on the others. As he correctly noted, though, during that first press conference for his second trip with the Cubs, it wasn't his job to "mentor" the younger pitchers. That is, it's not one player's job to teach other players how to go about their professional careers. Nope. You need a leader, and in the world of baseball that leader has the official job title of "manager." Although I've never been in a major league clubhouse, I would imagine it's the job of the manager to set the standards for what is or is not acceptable in the clubhouse. And, while some big league teams have veterans to help cultivate and sustain professionalism, when teams do not, it is the manager's j.o.b. If the manager doesn't like that role or doesn't feel as though that's the way to run a clubhouse, then he's got to teach a player or a group of players to take on that role. That is, he's either got to be a leader, allow leaders to do what they do best, or cultivate the leadership qualities in some player(s) in order to get a leader. From the outside looking in and from making inferences through Maddux's comments, we have a leadership vacuum in the clubhouse. And it's simply unacceptable.
Not only does a manager have to provide leadership, but he's got to emphasize some part of the game, something his team can create an identity around, some sort of style that provides some sort of structure for his players (and fans) to grasp on to. For Maddux and his new team, it seems like it is defense. For other teams it is power hitting or lights-out starting pitching or "small ball." I'm not sure what the style of the Cubs is this year. [Insert snark here about swinging at first pitches, lack of clutch hitting, or extending middle relievers]. If a team doesn't have an identity, the manager is supposed to shape or form one.
And, while Hendry is complicit in providing particular kinds of players, the manager still has a responsibility to take what he has and work with it. Coach them. Teach them. Scold them behind closed doors. There seems to be a lack of accountability or, at the very least, no boundaries for what is considered the kind of baseball Dusty wants his team and his players to play.
To be sure, this is also an organizational problem. Maybe the organization has a bunch of guys who don't want to learn. Maybe we just have lousy teachers up and down the system. Maybe the general manager, the one I've been giving a pass to for years because he stole two good players for Todd Hundley, isn't sure what kind of baseball he wants his teams to play. But Dusty has done a seemingly lousy job of leading and teaching his players.
And, we have a ton of young players on the roster, including, I would argue, D. Lee. We can debate all winter long about the kind of organization, team, and manager we wish our Cubs would embody, but for now, I would just like any sort of clarity and a few boundaries. Personally, I'm for a roster filled with guys who aren't afraid to have two strikes on them, who know how to hit to right field with a guy on and less than two out, and a staff of groundball pitchers who trust their fielders -for good reasons - to do their jobs. But if we can't have that, then I'd settle for simply having a manager who actually helps his players improve. And, really, who has improved under Dusty's tutelage? Does he really get the most out of what he has? What's the point of having him here if no one is going to get better? Is just the experience of being in the big leagues enough? I think not. Players need to learn and managers are the ones who help create situations for that learning to take place. Don't waste anyone else's time. Dusty isn't teaching the youngsters or any of the guys who will be on the roster next year.
On his new manager, Maddux said, "I trust Grady's judgment. Whatever he thinks is best for team is best for me." I wish I could say the same for Dusty.
Be gone.
Today.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
0 recs |
32 comments
Comments
Double plays
by CubFaninCA on Sep 5, 2006 3:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
terminology
Don't think, it can only hurt the ball club.
by Ross on Sep 5, 2006 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh please...
Ask Boston Red Sox fans what they think of Grady Little.
He is no better than Dusty.
You guys seriously need to start engaging your brains. Greg was saying the same stuff about Dusty when he was here and how much he loved it back in Chicago and how he never wanted to leave in the first place. Now he's being asked questions by the LA media, what is he going to say, "no, I want to be back in Chicago"? Of course he is going to be glowing about LA.
And the only reason Greg wants a quieter clubhouse is so he can watch golf on the big screen.
Look, Maddux is a legend, one of my favorite players, but you guys are doing everything but wrap him in an American flag and paint him as this martyr who suffered through 2.5 years begging for a trade when in fact he was an overpaid, over-the-hill, former great, who disappeared for months at a time and did more than his part to ensure we are as bad as we currently are.
by theprognosticator on Sep 5, 2006 3:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Reply
Oh please...
Yeah, Dusty is terrible but Grady Little are you serious?
Ask Boston Red Sox fans what they think of Grady Little.
He is no better than Dusty.
Agreed.
I doubt Maddux is really taking shots at the Cubs. He's just praising his new team. No story here.
by VS on Sep 5, 2006 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I'm not mad at Maddog...
And I don't think he's taking potshots at the team, I just think he's answering questions as best and as honestly as he can.
One thing I do find humorous though is that in Maddux's tenure in LA, he's already given up 4 unearned runs in 7 starts. In 22 starts here, he gave up 7 unearned runs total and that after a very generous move by the Cubs to make sure that certain runs that were charged as earned were changed to unearned.
Granted Furcal is a vastly superior shortstop to Cedeno, and makes tremendous plays out there, but Jeff Kent is hardly a quality fielder anymore, and Nomar, despite a fine first year, wouldn't be anyone's first, second, or even 3rd choice to be manning first base either.
I think Maddux is praising his defense because he's gonna need them just as much as he's going to need the spaciousness of Dodger Stadium if he's gonna keep this mirage up through the playoffs.
by theprognosticator on Sep 5, 2006 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reply...
And you hate on Maddux way too much. I don't think he ensured our spot as much as you claim...I blame a chunk of his fall on the Cubs slide. With no D behind him and little offense for him...I don't know. It's not much of a topic anyway, he's gone, he's a pretty good guy, and he likes L.A. Big deal.
by thekansasian on Sep 5, 2006 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not hating on Maddux...
And what I'm hating on are those who are romaticizing his second tenure here and putting the lion's share of the blame on the rest of the team, which is horribly unfair. That much should have been clear and should have been obvious to anyone who read my post.
Maddux is equally as culpable for the mess that he left behind as are those that are still a part of it.
Maddux would agree with me.
He simply was not very good here. Sure defense didn't help at times, and our offense was not that great this year or last, but I blame Maddux's record and performance on Maddux. He is far more hittable than he was in the past and that has to do with the fact that he's getting older and nearing the end.
And you talk about offense. Those Braves squads of yesteryear were hardly juggernauts themselves and Maddux didn't have any trouble.
by theprognosticator on Sep 5, 2006 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh of course...
The real argument is contention. As he has shown lately that he does better when focused. That's not an excuse, but it is easier to get jacked up for a big game.
And I'm not much of a Maddux fan...I was too young to remember his first tenure so my only impression of him is his latest stint. Good for a 3 or possibly a 4 starter. Not Great.
by thekansasian on Sep 5, 2006 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
"but you guys are doing everything but wrap him in an American flag and paint him as this martyr"
by CubFaninCA on Sep 5, 2006 3:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you
I respect Maddux's approach to the game and I wish we had a manager who taught players how to approach it like Maddux. I'm not saying that Grady Little is that guy; I'm only trying to say that Baker certainly is not, and there's no point having him finish out the season.
by billy pilgrim on Sep 5, 2006 3:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed billy...
But for my part, as long as he's not with the team come October 2 I'm fine with him finishing out the year.
by theprognosticator on Sep 5, 2006 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok since I am now back
A few notes. Cedeno WAS brutal especially when paired
with Walker. You won't see it in the box score but there
were MANY times one or the other them blew a DP behind
Maddux. Runs were still earned but it was truly painful
and you could tell it was wearing him down
You watch him pitch for the Dodgers and he is just
reborn. The difference of great SS and an effective infield
is just huge for Maddux.
I always kind of suspected that Maddux was not a huge
Dusty fan though he never ever said anything. I still remember
when he tried to "cover" when Dusty said he(Maddux) was thinking of retiring but I think it annoyed him.
I think that the statement that summed it all up
was the one after his last start in which he said
how much he loved Chicago, Wrigley ,playing for the Cubs
and that there was nothing wrong "except the way we have
been playing " ( not the exact words but close). He never
exempted himself from the blame of the teams woes
but there is no question that the situation wore him down
mentally.
Maddux may be past his prime ( kind of hard to stay at that
level anyway) but he is far from "over the hill". In a race &
with a team that has a good IF, he has thrived especially
at pitcher friendly Dodger stadium. The game I was at
last Wed was probably the best one of his I have seen in the last few years . He has pitched better ones but in getting out
of jams he was amazing but what was great was that he also
hit, pulled of a squeeze and about 5 fielding gems it was
great. Not exactly a "mirage"
I do think Maddux's rejuvanation in LA does say
a good deal about the Cubs especially this year.
( FYI the article must be kidding about Maddux being
"tepid" in his response to a trade to the Dodgers. If you
don't think Maddux ( with a lot of pushing from Boras)
tried to get it done than you probably think Wood will
start 30 games next year). The most depressing part
to me is that he will almost surely pitch two more years
in LA and then work with the Dodger orginization after
he retires. I am still etnernally grateful for the 2 & 2/3rds
seasons he came "home." I will get to see him one more time
this season, this coming weekend in NYC ( FYI he is 4-1 in
games I have attended this year). I think it is 50/50 that
he might face the Çubs in the upcoming series ( if Dodgers
skip a starter on the off day he will start on the 14th)
I am a Cub fan first but it will break my heart to see him
pitch against them.
by jessica on Sep 5, 2006 4:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Augie Cedeno = Cubs LVP
At least Neifi could field
by CubFaninCA on Sep 5, 2006 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You talk about gems and getting out of jams...
But maybe that's just me.
Don't get me wrong Jessica, I'm a Maddux fan, he will always be my favorite pitcher, but what I'm reading today from others makes it seem as though Maddux was pitching brilliantly all the time, putting the team on his shoulders, and was simply let down by everyone around him, when I see it as Maddux let the team down just as much as it let him down. All are culpable in this mess of a team, including those that were fortunate enough to escape to better situations.
As far as "over the hill" and "mirage" and stuff, well, we're just arguing semantics. Past his prime = over the hill to me. Use whatever verbage you feel comfortable with but I think we're both saying the same thing.
by theprognosticator on Sep 5, 2006 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it is semantics
Maddux's "prime" was literally the best 4 year stretch of
any pitcher of the modern era so I don't think anyone was
expecting him to win a bunch of Cy Young awards and
post an E.R.A under two. "over the hill" implies that
he has very little left to offer which I think is dead wrong
Maddux is no longer an "ace" most of the time but he can
and is both an effective pitcher and an EXTRAORDINARY guy
to have on your team. I think he was "let down" by poor
fielding this year ( note he has drastically cut down on
the gopher balls) but he would be the first to tell you
that he just did not get the job done a lot of the time.
Like I said I think he got mentally worn down by the
circumstances around him and it did effect his pitching.
you only had to watch the the game last Wed was to see the difference.. Those laid back moronic Dodger fans were crazier than I have ever seen them. In many ways it was the squeeze and covering first on Nomar's desperate throw that were more vintage Maddux than the pitching. It was THAT kind of stuff that
showed the Cubs problems. The Cubs just totally failed
to execute stuff like that and 40 or not Maddux can get
it done. The Cubs HAVE TO GET BACK to fundamentals
like bunting and covering the bags. This as much as
throwing strikes and hitting homers can make the difference.
There is no way you can watch Maddux playing with the
Dodgers and not realize A that he has lot left in the tanks
B. That the Cubs as a team were failing to do the little
things that winning teams do.
by jessica on Sep 5, 2006 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your passion for Maddux...
Case in point this season. He was downright horrible in May, when we still had a fighting chance, and he did little to help stem the tide in June or July. Sure, there's only so much one pitcher can do, but with Z pitching lights out during that time, a better Maddux could have at least helped us remain within striking distance.
And I'm not exculpating the rest of the team, far from it, the entire Cubs team, with the exception of Z, was poopy during that stretch as well, and certainly didn't do Maddux any favors. But then, he didn't do the Cubs many favors either during that period either.
The whole team flat out stunk. Everybody. Including Maddux. And whether or not it was because he was worried about the defense or because he was concerned he wouldn't get enough run support, bottom line, he blew chunks in May, June, and July. He's a major league pitcher, one of the best of all time and should be able to overcome those types of things and do a better job of keeping his team in the game. Kelvim Escobar, a talented pitcher but nowhere near the caliber of Maddux, has had horrible run support this year and poor defense behind him and has still managed to post a very strong season and ERA. Is Kelvim Escobar a mentally stronger pitcher than Greg Maddux?
You point to LA and their play as an indictment of the Cubs, whereas I point to LA as an indictment of Maddux. Where the bloody hell was he when we needed him? Where was he in May? June? July? Is he that mentally weak? The Cubs defense has not been that bad this year. Give me a break on that stuff. If it were entirely the fault of the team around him then there's no reason for Maddux to have even had a good April.
So if you want to give Maddux a free pass because you love him so much, then fine, be my guest, but I'm going to put the blame where it belongs, that being, on him as much as on anybody else. You want to take a dump on the Cubs while leaving your favorite player out of it then that is your choice. But you're deluding yourself if you think he isn't part of the reason we are in the current mess we are in. Carlos Zambrano pitched with the same defense and offensive support and got Cy Young consideration until recently and Carlos in my opinion can't hold two thoughts together at the same time without running around the room like a lunatic. And yet he did his part in trying to keep the team in it. Maddux simply went in the tank with everybody else.
The failure of the 2006 Chicago Cubs belongs to everybody, including Greg Maddux, and I say that with no pleasure at all as he will always be my favorite pitcher. When the Cubs stupidly let Maddux get away the first time, they let him down, this time, he let them down.
by theprognosticator on Sep 6, 2006 4:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd better change one thing...
The last part. Maddux let the team down. To be fair I would say that both sides let each other down and probably the Cubs let down Maddux more than the other way around.
by theprognosticator on Sep 6, 2006 5:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maddux was pitching badly
poor fielding. I am NOT saying he was great
and it is just silly to ever think he was suppossed
to be a # 1 or #2 starter, not was he was hired for
but he really needed better fielding behind him
to stay in the game.
As for the resurgence in LA, I think there is no
question that is a result of better fielding and being
in the race which IS an indictment of the Cubs more
than Maddux. It is not like he "gave up" in Chicago
and just suddenly decided he would try harder now, because
that sure isn't Maddux. You can argue cause and effect
endlessly but personally I don't see how you can
doubt that Maddux's resurgence has more to do
with his new team than some sudden new found
skills
by jessica on Sep 6, 2006 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I watched Maddux pitch the entire time he was here
And somewhere along the line even players like Maddux need to be held accountable. I'm sorry but as high as Maddux's ERA was during those three months, it can't be accounted for or blamed solely on the defense. He was flat out bad. He went in the tank with the rest of the team. Perhaps it was just him being past his prime, or maybe mentally, he was worn down by the constant stream of injuries to key parts and the poor play by the rest of the team. I'm not saying that the Cubs were playing wonderfully and Maddux was bringing everybody down, just that he was equally as bad as everyone else.
And let's face it, Dodger Stadium, with its spacious dimensions in the OF, is far more forgiving of Maddux's mistakes than Wrigley is. I remember the great game he pitched against the Giants, the duel with Jason Schmidt. At least two balls by my reckoning, one in particular, to Bonds, would have been home runs at Wrigley. In a tight game like that, that would have made all the difference. Even the announcers, who were in Maddux-Gush mode all night, admitted he was being aided some by the park.
And there's still a bit of a ways to go before the season is up, let's see how Maddux finishes. 1 quality start out of his last 4 for the team that plays the game the right way. If he continues to pitch like he has of late, which has been looking more and more like May, June, and July, where will the blame go then?
by theprognosticator on Sep 6, 2006 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't blame it all on fielding
There is no doubt that Maddux had a bad stretch
this summer but to plagarize one of the local columist
at least " he never grabbed his arm and said 'ouch'"
You were bound to be disappointed if you expected
Maddux to be an ace but I still think he was worth
every penny of his contract and losing him has an
effect well past his every 5th day start.
You are right that we should watch how he does
the rest of the year ( and I will be at Shea to see him
this weekend. He had a poor start there earlier this year)
and perhaps more importantly next year. As long
as he isn't pitching against the Cubs ( which he
still MIGHT next week) I am going to root for him.
by jessica on Sep 6, 2006 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same here...
by theprognosticator on Sep 6, 2006 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry no ring
about it re Maddux, I HATE THE DODGERS. I WORSHIP
MADOG and love Nomar but NOT THE DODGERS.
I will root for them only one of five games. I do in
fact really want to see Maddux in the post season but
I can't overcome my dislike of the Dodgers.
by jessica on Sep 6, 2006 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey nowwww. Hold on there, loose cannon...
Flame on, brother, I couldn't agree more.
by Blood Brother on Sep 5, 2006 4:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I didn't intend
And, from an organizational perspective, this point of the season is about letting the young guys play and to see what, if anything, they have to offer the organization down the road.
Besides reluctantly and incosistently playing youngsters, few inexperienced players seem to improve. While it's easy to say that there are only a few weeks left in the season, it's a prime time to set the stage for many of these young guys during winter ball and to establish major league habits. Although I'm not convinced any of the short-term replacements would do any better (i.e. Chris Speier, Dick Pole, one of the minor league managers), Baker clearly won't do so. And even if he did teach them something, evidence suggests that it won't be the kind of lessons that will help improve their play.
I'm just asking...why keep him for the final weeks? Fire him now and start the search for next year. He's not helping the team we cheer for get any closer to the world series and any more time he spends here contributes to the delay.
by billy pilgrim on Sep 5, 2006 6:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
no comparison
Yeah, Dusty is terrible but Grady Little are you serious?
Ask Boston Red Sox fans what they think of Grady Little.
He is no better than Dusty".
If your're referring to Little leaving in Pedro during the '03 playoff's then you know as much about baseball as those that were and still are upset about that decision. What would you have done,hmmm? Are you going to lie and say that you would have gone to your bullpen and replace one of the best pitchers in baseball with someone from your unproductive bullpen?
The only comparisons that you can make between the two is that they're both major league managers.
"If he continues to pitch like he has of late, which has been looking more and more like May, June, and July, where will the blame go then"?
Don't take it personally, you make it sound like Maddux stuck a fork in your back. All Maddux did was tell the truth. This is the worst cub team in our lifetime.
by cubfan4life on Sep 6, 2006 1:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There's more to the blissfully short reign of...
So don't jump to conclusions about the genesis of my opinions. And please, cut the grade school crap about knowledge of the game. What we're discussing here are opinions that have support in all sectors of baseball, and can't be classified in a "smart baseball people" and "dumb baseball people" way. Grow up.
And if you'd please read carefully next time, I am not bashing Maddux's opinions of the franchise and the team, I am speaking out against those who are giving Maddux a free pass for the time he played here where he was, for the most part, average to below average, and especially awful for the three months where this team became the worst Cub team in our lifetime.
All I'm saying is that Maddux was a part of that team, and equally as responsible for how bad it was along with everybody else.
Maddux didn't stick a fork in my or our collective back, but he did his part in sticking a fork in this lost season. And he deserves as much of the responsibility as anybody else.
by theprognosticator on Sep 6, 2006 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're forgetting...
"There's more to the blissfully short reign of...
...Grady Little than just that moment"
Can't you provide any specifics other than your "conversations" with RSN. Obviously Little had a great offense but his pitching staff consisted of Pedro, Lowe and not much in between. Pitching is what wins baseball games, right?
by cubfan4life on Sep 6, 2006 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the kind of pitcher Maddux was...
And I don't care what the expectation was, being a "number 5" doesn't justify an ERA close to 6.00 for the better part of 3 months. Keep making excuses for him, but if you're going to do that you might as well start making them for everybody.
As far as Grady Little goes, here's his story.
A player's manager. Tends to let the clubhouse go whichever way it wants. Tends to rely heavily on veterans. Criticism of Grady reached the breaking point with the Pedro move, but the groundwork had been laid long beforehand as Little was repeatedly criticized for his poor handling of the bullpen, the lapses in fundamentals and concentration his team sometimes went through, and his odd lineup choices.
Sound familiar?
The reason I said Grady Little oh please is because he is essentially the same kind of manager that Dusty Baker is, cut from the same mold.
And since we're all clamoring for Dusty's departure, why would anyone be pining away for somebody who is essentially the same guy? If the roles were switched, and Little was managing the Cubs and Dusty was managing the Dodgers, would people be pining away for Dusty?
They're the same guy. Meet your new boss, same as the old boss.
Is Grady a bad guy? A horrible manager? Not necessarily. Given certain kinds of player he can be successful. But then the same could be said of Dusty.
by theprognosticator on Sep 6, 2006 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not according to Maddux
According to Maddux the Dodger clubhouse is professional and quiet. I guess he meant it didn't have the varying music being blasted by ten different boom boxes(and I thought that was supposed to end with Sammy's departure).
Look, I don't know if the Dodgers professional clubhouse is do in part to Grady or Coletti,ownership or the players but that's a far cry from the cub clubhouse, where the inmates are running the asylum. Make no mistake about it, the lack of professionalism in that clubhouse is all Baker's fault.
by cubfan4life on Sep 6, 2006 7:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree at all...
The clubhouse certainly wasn't like that in Boston during the year of Cowboy Up.
by theprognosticator on Sep 6, 2006 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also...
by theprognosticator on Sep 6, 2006 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 




















