Anguish in Denver

by Cubfansince1957 on Oct 15, 2007 11:58 PM CDT

I wanted to talk about something that is difficult for a Cub fan to talk about in Denver right now (for obvious reasons). I figured, if anyone would understand, it would be you guys.

I've been a die-hard Cub fan all my life. I grew up near Chicago, and as my bio on this site says, I have died with the Cubs multiple times over the years, going all the way back to that magical season (that ended poorly) in 1969, with Leo Durocher, Ernie Banks (my hero), Ron Santo, Billy Williams, Ken Holtzman and Jim Hickman.

I've lived in Denver since 1985 (in Colorado since 1981 - life is good here). I was thrilled when Denver got the new National League franchise, because I knew it would be a chance to see the Cubs every year, and though I have missed a couple of years (this was one of them), I get to see them most years.

I was at the first Rockies home game ever, in the old Mile High Stadium, and it was probably one of my biggest sports thrills in Denver. I was at the first game in Coors Field (against the Phillies). When the Cubs aren't playing the Rockies, I've rooted for the Rockies (unless we've needed them to lose for the benefit of the Cubs, which hasn't been often).

I work in downtown Denver, and I frequently drive home right past Coors Field. The only regular season games that have sold out regularly over the past few years are Opening Day, the 4th of July fireworks game, and any Cubs game. Indeed, the Rockies even have "premium" (read "jacked-up") prices for these games, and the Cubs are the only regular season games that are "premium" games (this year, when the Yankees came to town, was the only exception).

Until about 10 days before the end of the season, I'd drive by Coors Field during a game and there would be 10 to 15 thousand people max there during a game. They didn't even sell out the play-in game against the Padres a week ago Monday (they announced it as sold out, but I got out of work late and when I drove by late in the game, I could see that the upper deck had several thousand empty seats)!

I contrast that with Wrigley Field where the stands are packed almost every game, regardless of how the Cubs are doing, and where the fans sing together after Cub wins. The Rockies fans don't do anything like that. I have a few friends who have cheered for the Rockies, even when they are twenty games below .500, but most of the people out here are always saying "How bout those Broncos?"

My anguish is this.... How come the Rockies are literally having everything come to them so easy on this postseason run? Why do their mostly fair-weather fans get this gem of a postseason, and we have to content ourselves with "next year". Yes, I know it is all about what happens on the field, but there is even a controversy in this series (the NLCS) about how the Rockies have caught all the breaks. I agree they are outplaying the D-backs, but when is it our turn to have a magical end of the year and postseason run? Why can't this happen to us, just once?

I know the answers, but I knew that you guys would understand my needing to share my anguish.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation, Bleed Cubbie Blue, or Al Yellon, editor-in-chief. FanPost opinions are, however, valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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I understand

your concerns and most of us here feel the same way as you do. As the best fans in the world we deserve more. I guess the answer is simple and it is not the billy goat or Bartman or a black cat or the evil witch. It is in the teams that we put together every season. Take for instance this 2007 cubs team. This team was so fundamentally flawed and did a very few things right. They couldn't execute the basic fundamentals through out the season and Jim Hendry should thank the weak NL central for the Division Title. If you take a look at the other teams in the post season including the Rockies you will find that the Cubs team is no where close to their performance level. All these teams are achieving more with less and the cubs team achieved very less with a lot more. Heck, I still do not understand how in the world we were swept by these Diamondbacks. I don't care if they have 90 wins in the regular season but their pitching was mediocre to poor in the post season and our over hyped hitters folded to that. We have seen numerous base running gaffes, apparent lack of preparation or an execution plan at the plate and the list goes on. We have seen our hitters clueless at the plate. They took meat balls right down the middle for called strikes and were quickly falling into pitchers counts and were swinging at pitches 3 feet away from the K Zone. I would say they were neither constructively aggressive nor patient. Heck even the Cardinals with their god awful team this year have been breathing on our necks and were within 1 game away at point to tie for first place. I would say there has been absolutely nothing about which we can be proud of in 2007. There has been some nice come from behind wins but the fact of the matter is if only our hitters didn't go to sleep the first 5-7 innings against some poor pitching we could have won those games much easier.

But we have to build on 2007 and get better to achieve better things in 2008 and we still have a number of holes to plug during the off season for that to happen.

by cubsnlinux on Oct 16, 2007 12:15 AM CDT 0 recs

I found it completely appalling ...

When at the award ceremony for the NL Championship trophy, the Rockies' fans were described as "the greatest fans in baseball." Though I'm glad the Rox made it in, and they did it with one helluva feat, they just don't have the best fans. Perhaps the base will be better next year, now that they've had a winner.

As for "The Greatest Fans," the Cubbie faithful have got that distinction won, long, far, and away. And we don't need no stinking hyperboles to add to the perception. The best and the most long-suffering.

Let's keep it real, MLB.

REVERSE THE CURSE! REVERSE THE CURSE!

by Littlerock Rynofan on Oct 16, 2007 1:24 AM CDT 0 recs

Greatest fans in baseball

has now become a throwaway term. Also, are they really going to say "the 12th greatest fans in baseball"?

IMHO, that to me, this series was pretty much the same as the Cubs/D Backs series. I don't feel the Rox pitching was dominant, the Snakes just didn't hit or play like they have all year. They didn't steal any bases, seemed to wait for the long ball. And last night, with Young on 2nd and only one out, I thought for sure they would score at least one run as they ususally do in those situations. To let Drew swing away 3-0 was a mistake and Byrnes grounding out on a check swing was weird. Again, AZ was a streaky team all year and this postseason maginified that. Won 3 in a row, then lose 4 in a row.

Still can't believe that the Rockies have won all those games and losing only one. We will see next week if the streak and Cinderella story continues.

"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse

by BigJohnAZ on Oct 16, 2007 9:12 AM CDT up 0 recs

Certainly not "12 greatest"...

but they don't have to breach the topic of "best fans" at all then.

perhaps...

"Wow, these fans have really come alive! They are really feeling a potential WS run. Listen to this crowd, they are pumped up! These fans are gettin crazy...listen to them!"

"Wow, there are people here tonight!"

MMMMM...Fernandos fajitas and margaritas

by Kinky Reggae on Oct 16, 2007 9:29 AM CDT up 0 recs

They certainly have ...

A looong lay off until the Series. That kind of forced vacation just about killed the Tigers last year, so I'm not sure whether getting there in a sweep is necessarily the best ticket to later October success.

REVERSE THE CURSE! REVERSE THE CURSE!

by Littlerock Rynofan on Oct 16, 2007 1:30 PM CDT up 0 recs

Symmetry and Poetry

First of all, Congrats to the Champion Rockies! They genuinely deserve to go to their first ever WS!

Sure, we all feel the anguish and disappointment of yet another expansion team beating our beloved Cubbies to the World Series in our lifetime!

I actually celebrate the true Rockies fans that have supported their team, and yet like "Marlins fans" (an oxymoron?), I remain skeptical as to the breadth, depth, longevity, and genuine devotion of people who "show up" during their hot streak and bandwagon and suddenly proclaim "lifelong membership"!

Anguish - perhaps living in close proximity and daily contact with this team and ballpark, you get to bare an added burden of BleedingCubbieBlue! However, let the Denver and Colorado "barely-bleeding-any-true-colors" crowd of bandwagoners enjoy "their" celebration.

Our day/year WILL come! AND that will be sweeter, more satisfying, and heavenly than all of the expansion teams, "bandwagoners", and fake ballparks put together.

And BEST OF ALL - WE, BleedCubbieBlue fans, WILL genuinely know what true devotion, perseverance, loyalty, character in the face of adversity, and achievement of final ultimate bliss really tastes like! OUR celebration will know NO end!

Unless, of course, the curses are real, and Armageddon DOES occur! In which case, WHAT A WAY TO GO!

Keep your head up high, 2007 was only a dress rehearsal for the final event. A century between Championships brings us all a poetic sense of symmetry. Who else will ever be able to make, cherish, celebrate, or comprehend this claim!?

I coined the term "Genetic Cubs Fan" to describe how my Cubs Fan status goes well beyond "diehard".

Wrigley Field sits empty for now, awaiting another winter, and reawakening come Spring 2008. Coors Field will indeed rock with boisterous shouts, and loud boasts for days to come, but I will only hear mere whimpers when I warm up my thoughts of the Armageddon that will grip Wrigley when our Cubbies win it all!

Keep the Faith!

Genetic Cubs fan since 1951!

SOMEDAY…

"If they won a world championship, sure, we'd be proud. But we couldn't love them any more than we already do " -anonymous Cub fan

by hellfreezesoverwaittillnextyear on Oct 16, 2007 2:00 AM CDT 0 recs

It's precisesly...

...because they won't pack the stands for whatever the team throws on the field that the Rockies felt the need to build a competitive team. Furthermore they've decided to actually build a team instead of throwing a bunch of money at the problem.

by jolietconvict on Oct 16, 2007 7:55 AM CDT 0 recs

Whoa

First of all, I have never liked this argument. Secondly even the Rockies ownership admits that they were not expecting a winner this year. This team was built from within because the other formulas did not work for the Rockies and after the disappointments with Neagle and Hampton, the ownership shut off the tap. O'Dowd was forced to build from the ground up. He was the right GM for the job in hindsight given that this he built the Indians farm system in the 90's.

So, again I do not like or agree with the argument that they felt the need to build a competitive team just to fill the stands. Furthermore, one of the Monforts basically said I thought people would fill this stadium regardless of the product on the field.

Their strategy paid off due to one of the greatest runs in sports history. If they lose one additional game in their run in the regular season we are not even having this discussion, and Coors Field would have remained half filled on good days next season.

Just give me a couple more days...

by DenverCub on Oct 16, 2007 12:19 PM CDT up 0 recs

maybe I'm weird

but taking my loyalty to the Cubs out of the equation (because obviously I want them to win all the time) but I kinda like when a team goes on a run like this, 1 its fun to watch, but also because its good for the game, I enjoy teams getting a big boost in fans, sure in 2 years most of them will be back to whatever level of fandom they have now, but for now the stadium is packed with cheering fans and its nice to see

keeping mediocrity at bay

by flyball on Oct 16, 2007 9:13 AM CDT 0 recs

C'mon...

... people aren't seriously complaining about an athlete calling the fans that he plays for "the best" or "the greatest". This almost always happens. As was already said, its a throwaway term. Further, its a player paying homage to the fans who have rooted them on. Its not a commentary of all the other baseball fans in the world. I'm not sure why people take this so seriously, as though its an affront to Cub fans or Cardinal fans or whatever.

A side note, however. The fans of the Rockies have been far from non-present over their history. The team had widespread support and excellent attendance through their first decade of existence, even during some VERY lean years. The team drew well into the 3 million fan range even as they were finishing well below .500 (and drew over 3 million following sub .500 seasons). Only when the organization truly entered a long, dark winter did attendance really take a hit. The fans have supported their team. Perhaps not like Cub fans have shown up to Wrigley, but their fans are far from Marlin fans.

DmL

by dmlichte on Oct 16, 2007 9:31 AM CDT 0 recs

I for one

don't take serious offense to it because as many have stated, there is no evidence that Cub fans are the greatest in the world (though most of us know that this is so). I think it was just a discussion about the very topic you referred to...

The term is thrown about as haphazardly as curtain calls are given unnecessarily these days.

Just a discussion...

MMMMM...Fernandos fajitas and margaritas

by Kinky Reggae on Oct 16, 2007 10:08 AM CDT 0 recs

Not Easy

How come the Rockies are literally having everything come to them so easy on this postseason run?

Talented teams tend to make the difficult look easy. The Rox suffered while they built from within, something I wish the Cubs would do more of as it normally means a longer run of success.

PERRY!!!!

by Goat Whisperer on Oct 16, 2007 10:10 AM CDT 0 recs

Yabbut...

... this talent seemed to come out of nowhere. The Rockies were barely contending till September. Even so, only five teams in the last seventy years have gone 21-1 in any stretch of any season. Is this Rockies team really that good?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 16, 2007 10:13 AM CDT up 0 recs

Its not...

... a fluke. The Rockies have the best ERA in the league in the second half of the season. They have been trying for many years to cultivate their own pitchers, and after many failures, seeing guys like Shawn Chacon fall flat, they found some excellent talent in Francis, Jiminez and Morales. I think that Fogg may be a fluke and Jiminez and Morales may have the benefit of lack of scouting reports on them, they may have ups and downs, but they are quality arms.

They have some excellent bats up and down the line-up, but most importantly, this team plays tremendous defense and fundamentally sound baseball. I have listened to Charley Steiner a few times on XM the past week or so and when the Rockies come up, he says the same thing, they only give you 27 outs. They don't give you 29 or 30, they play sound baseball and have tremendous defense.

I think this is going to be a team that is good for several years IF they stay healthy. 21 of 22 certainly is a good team playing a bit above their heads, but this is a very good baseball team.

DmL

by dmlichte on Oct 16, 2007 10:26 AM CDT up 0 recs

Wow, those are some serious sour grapes

People are seriously upset that the "best fans in baseball" thing is getting tossed around like that? There's a term for this: sour grapes.

Regarding the Rockies fans, I think this captures it best. From Deadspin:

The Rockies' fanbase is often underrated due to its age. We can understand Red Sox, Cubs and Indians fans, familiar with far more extended periods of suffering, mocking the Rockies; ooh, you waited 14 years. How AWFUL. But we think that's probably unfair. If you were from Denver and never had a team of your own, you've spent a decade and a half waiting for something, anything to happen with your team. And this is not necessarily a Johnny Come Lately fan base; they continue to hold the all-time single-season attendance record, 4.5 million, from their first season. Maybe you can't talk to your grandfather about how he suffered with the Rockies as a boy, but that doesn't mean the jubilation isn't earned.

by Wreckard on Oct 16, 2007 10:40 AM CDT 0 recs

Rockies Attendance

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/attend.shtml

The last several years have not been good, but for a long time fans showed up in droves, even when the team wasn't all that great.

DmL

by dmlichte on Oct 16, 2007 10:51 AM CDT up 0 recs

Also..

... Denver had been mentioned as a possible expansion site several times before they actually got a team, including being one of the cities that was going to get a team had the proposed Continental League gotten off the ground in 1960.

It's a good baseball town. Yes, attendance had been down for several years before this year. They might draw close to 4 million again next year, as teams typically set attendance marks the year AFTER they make or win the World Series.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 16, 2007 11:07 AM CDT up 0 recs

to further your comment

a look around online shows that the Rockies 1993 Attendance of 4,483,350 or an average of 55,350 a game is a ML record. They also have 3 of the top ten attendance marks of all time (93, 96, 97)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_attendance_records)

AC 00 00 00 - BELIEVE

by mike on Oct 16, 2007 12:44 PM CDT up 0 recs

This was

a great baseball town throughout the 90's. The experience at the old mile high (80K plus for the first game ever, what?) and at Coors was great. But as the honeymoon wore off and the team went through some particularly bad years in the beginning of the decade, the fans turned away from the Rockies. This is a Broncos town unfortunately (although you wouldn't know it right now), but they do get behind their other teams when they have a reason to.

Just give me a couple more days...

by DenverCub on Oct 16, 2007 1:29 PM CDT up 0 recs

just a guess

I'd have to believe that part of that is the relatively short history the Rockies have there compared to the Broncos.

AC 00 00 00 - BELIEVE

by mike on Oct 16, 2007 2:40 PM CDT up 0 recs

It is a bit of an odd feeling

I'm the same way. Grew up in Chicago, a mile from Wrigley Field, and did the whole "I remember going to the game with my dad and it only cost 75 cents (honest) for a bleacher seat and will never forget the distinct aroma of cigars, sweat and beer" thing.

All those years and no satisfaction, just heartbreak.

Today, I wake up and I actually live in a town whose baseball team is going to the World Series. Definitely mixed emotions. I want the Rox to win, and they really do deserve it. It's that mystical baseball thing, where the double plays occur when needed, and the other team does really stupid things (like getting picked off and having a runner believe he's out when he's really safe). And who could write a better ending then Eric Byrnes making the last out in the 9th inning. That is baseball....

At any rate, very happy for the Rox; and once you see what has to happen for a team to win a pennant, you can also see what happens to a team that doesn't. The Cubs, for whatever reason, haven't been able to get over that hump. But hope will always spring eternal. I really wanted the Cubs and Rox to face each other. That didn't happen, but I was able to get the second-best outcome. The Cubs' time will come......

by chucolo on Oct 16, 2007 11:17 AM CDT 0 recs

The Second-Best Outcome

in 1984 was NOT the San Diego Padres going to the World Series.

You are a better man than I. It was miserable as a Cubs fan being here then, and I had just moved here for a job.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 16, 2007 2:40 PM CDT up 0 recs

The Latroy Hawkins Story: Bad RP leads to WS

In an odd twist of fate, favorite fan scapegoat LaTroy Hawkin's failure as a closer for the Cubs turned out to be his path to the World Series.

Had he succeeded as a Cub and been retained on the team he would be watching the playoffs from home now with everyone else. But because he fundamentally sucked and alienated fans with his many blown saves during his tenure as a Cub, he was traded to San Francisco in 2005. The Giants, in turn, traded him to Baltimore immediately after the 2005 season, who traded him to the Rockies after 2006. I think it is fair to say that these one year tenures at each club speaks volumes about his talent, and an inspection of his stats during this time would confirm those suspicions.

Nonetheless, he is on a team that will play in the World Series.

Doesn't this seem all wrong, like some fundamental laws of nature just got broken big time?

by JFCubFan on Oct 16, 2007 12:43 PM CDT 0 recs

Don't agree at all

Your assessment of Hawkins isn't all that accurate. He was a set-up man with tremendous talent, but did not have the closers mentality when he came to the Cubs. Everyone knew this and his numbers with the Twins confirmed that he was a tremendous set-up man, but a crappy closer. Dusty Baker, who ironically enough Latroy seems to love, didn't care what the numbers said and kept putting Latroy into closer situations, and predictably Latroy failed. This led to a myriad of problems in Chicago, including, yes, his problem with the fans.

But this doesn't detract from the fact that the Cubs had a very good set-up man in Latroy and is manager set him up to fail. Had Dusty used him properly, he may have had many successful years in Chicago, but we'll never know.

IMO, Dusty was the worst thing that ever happened to Latroy, but hey, he's now on his way to the World Series as a Rockie.

DmL

by dmlichte on Oct 16, 2007 1:26 PM CDT up 0 recs

What chaps me even more

since I'm a Hockey fan is that the former Quebec Nordiques were horrible since their entrance to the NHL in the 70s. However, as soon as the franchise moved to Denver, it was nothing but sunshine, winning, good times, and A Stanley Cup Championship a few years after landing in the Mile High City.

Long-suffering Avalanche fans, my ass. At least the Rockies proved they could draw millions to a bad team at the beginning. But still, another expansion franchise may be in the WS before the Cubs. It blows, big time.

And they were one Trevor Hoffman pitch (in Milwaukee, forget Game 163) from their season coming to a close. Luck, luck, and more luck combined with the worst possible hitter Hoffman could have faced in ALL OF MLB. Barry Bonds, Prince Fielder would have been easier.

But NO, Hoffman has to face the son of a long-time now-HOF teammate, who most assuredly conversed with his son as to what to do (theoretically) if he had to face Hoffman.

Who knew it would be Gwynn Jr, not Sr. who had to face Hoffman in such a surreal, historic -- unprecendented situation. Was Hoffman injured? Possibly. We now know Hoffman had surgery after the season. This is flying under the radar here. Boy, if this happened in Chicago -- the furor this news would kick-start!

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/padres/20071012-1304-hoffman.html

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Oct 16, 2007 2:37 PM CDT 0 recs

Few things

If I am not mistaken they committed only 70 errors during the regular season, they field a team that saves runs especially at SS. They have hitters who are PATIENT, work counts. And they are pitching there brains out.
1. Humidor has helped, the 12-11 games are now rare.
2. Good live young arms.
3. Hawkins,Herges, and Fogg are having years way beyond then expected.
I don't think Dusty used Hawkins right either, However he had two good years in Minn. as an Oriole he was horrible, and we know what happened as a Cub. LaTroy has been average for his career, and he like all the Rockie pitchers have been lights out since July.

Until the Cubs consistently hit with two outs, work pitchers, be smart on the bases, just do the small things, This team will continue to frustrate us all.
But God do I love them.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Oct 16, 2007 6:51 PM CDT 0 recs

Thanks to Everyone Who Responded

I just wanted to say thanks to all for commiserating with me. I really am rooting for the Rockies next week, whether its against the Indians or the Red Sox. It just seems so unfair to us, though I understand all the comments about the way the Cubs played this year (remember, though, that the Cubs went 5-2 against the Rox this year).

There is one interesting idea I've had. Aren't the Indians about the only other team than the Cubs that hasn't won in a long time. If they win the Series, does that mean that after the Red Sox, White Sox and Indians finally worked out their karma, that, next year, it's the Cubs turn?

God, I sound so much like a Cubs fan. And I'm proud of it.

Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, whadya say? The Cubs are going to win today!

by Cubfansince1957 on Oct 17, 2007 11:42 PM CDT 0 recs