NO to Kaz Matsui

by SouthsideCub on Nov 16, 2007 3:44 PM CST Comment 64 comments

Rumor is that Jimbo is looking to dump three years and $14m on this joker.

Let's do a little comparison, shall we?
162 596 92 162 33 6 7 57 45 110 27 4 .272 .325 .387 .712
162 528 90 146 32 4 5 47 52 54 32 5 .276 .341 .379 .720

The top line- Kaz Matsui
The bottom line- that's right, Ryan Theriot.

Although Matsui is a little slicker with the glove, he would be a terrible waste of money, when Ryan has a higher OBP, and is otherwise an equal to Matsui.

The only way I could forgive this move is if it meant, for sure, that fukudome was coming here.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Your last line may be the key.

It's a lot of money. OTOH, most people here thought giving that sort of money to Mark DeRosa a year ago was a waste, and it turned out not to be.

But if signing him brings Fukudome to the Cubs, absolutely, positively, DO IT NOW. But ONLY in that circumstance.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 16, 2007 3:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Why would

Fukodome care?

by nickler on Nov 16, 2007 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Because it would be nice to have another Japanese

person on the team. It would help out culturally. There is not near as large a Japanese community in Chicago as in Seattle or San Fran.

"Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

by Jettero2112 on Nov 16, 2007 4:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It may be...

... that Matsui and Fukudome are friends. I don't know that for sure, but maybe the Cubs do. If so, that's a real good idea.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 16, 2007 4:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That would be even better

especially if their families are already acquainted.

"Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

by Jettero2112 on Nov 16, 2007 4:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

reply

If Fukudome needs a friend/translator/babysitter/whatever, then let him bring his best friend over, pay the guy 200K as his "special assistant" and forget that Kaz Matsui exists. Bringing Kaz aboard for reasons you're suggesting is fine -- at league minimum. Bringing him aboard and paying him nearly 5 million dollars a year through 2010 is an absolutely absurd idea. It might be Hendry's worst move yet if he does, in fact, sign him.

by kanderber on Nov 16, 2007 7:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So by that logic

Why didnt the Cubs land A-Rod since Lou Pinella was "A-Rod's 2nd Father."

"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager

by Galvan316 on Nov 16, 2007 4:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

That's a little different, isn't it?

The two situations are not comparable.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 16, 2007 4:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If Kaz can bunt

and move a runner over and steal bases Id be happy. We havent had a player like that since before Dusty came to town.

Is it just me but does every team but the Cubs get bunts down?

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Nov 16, 2007 4:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

reply

Don't you think we can just teach the art of bunting to Theriot/Infante/Cedeno/everyone else rather than paying 15M for a guy to do it?

Kaz Matsui sucks, quite simply. Signing him would be a bad, bad idea.

by kanderber on Nov 16, 2007 7:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If Kaz can bunt

and move a runner over and steal bases Id be happy. We havent had a player like that since before Dusty came to town.

Is it just me but does every team but the Cubs get bunts down?

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Nov 16, 2007 4:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

So lets sign

Matsui so he can put a bunt down. Goodness the Guy has had ONE good offensive year.
This happens, we have Theriot, Cedeno, DeRosa, Fontenot,Infante and Matsui for SS and 2ND Or did I miss anyone else, Hell maybe Paul Popovich.
No sense what so ever. To sign Fukudome, sign Jacki Chan.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Nov 16, 2007 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

forgot

about the possibility of e-pat...or is this the 2nd patterson that we're gonna retard?

by chicagosportslove23 on Nov 16, 2007 8:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

Not to argue whose right and wrong in this instance, but how are they different?

How is two people that know eachother different then one person refering to a very close friend as a father figure?

"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager

by Galvan316 on Nov 16, 2007 4:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Language/culture barrier is the difference...

It's not the type of connections that are different. It's the situations in which the connections are occuring.

ARod can already speak the language and feel fairly comfortable wherever he plays in the US. Fukudome would be moving to an entirely new continent, and speaking a foreign language. The impact of having a friend who speaks the same language and knows what you're coming from is much bigger in this situation.

While the type of connection may be similar, the two situations aren't remotely similar.

by SouthernCub on Nov 16, 2007 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I understand

I guess, I never looked at it that way.

I stand corrected.

Al and bababenti please excuse my ignorance.

"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager

by Galvan316 on Nov 16, 2007 4:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you

for explaining this better than I could.

Look, Matsui's not a great player, but he can play SS as well as Theriot, and if he can help a player like Fukudome adapt to playing in the USA, then hell yes, sign him.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 16, 2007 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You may not know but

Kaz Matsui and Kosuke Fukudome went to high school together in Japan. (The baseball power P. L. Gakuen in Osaka) Kaz would have been two years ahead of Fukudome.

I think that explains our interest in Matsui right there.

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh77 on Nov 16, 2007 4:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

overall this would put a triumverate in the middle

Either the Cubs would be able to trade Theriot or Cedeno plus Fontenot.

Best option is Cedeno and Fonty since Theriot could play CF along with Infante as interchangable parts.

If Matsui is indeed the plan to bring Fukudome and possibly communicated then the OF would be Soriano, Pie, Fukudome in the regular OF.

This makes the bench better either way if Theriot is traded or Cedeno in that Matsui better than the current bench. Interchangable parts....with if Theriot is kept 3 players could play the IF and OF.

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Nov 16, 2007 5:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ok, this explains it a bit

I've always found it a bit strange when people speculate that a team might sign x foreign player to attract y foreign player from the same country, without knowing whether or not those players had a relationship to begin with (or a hostile relationship for that matter. would a Japanese team sign Michael Barrett to attract A.J. Pierzinski, for example?) so I'm glad to know that KM/KF do indeed know each other from before (I'm sure that, if this is indeed the Cubs' angle, they have already done their due diligence on this.)

I just hope Kaz and Fukudome liked each other in HS... :)

by PrincetonCubs on Nov 16, 2007 6:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm going to add

that Fukudome has an independent streak. Out of high school, he refused to sign with any team that drafted him other than Yomiuri or Chunichi. (The Yankees and Dodgers of NPB.) When he was drafted by Kinetsu, he signed with an industrial league team and played there for three years (the equivalent to going to college rather than signing with the team that drafted you out of high school), which is why he's a bit older than other Japanese free agents.

Fukudome won't sign here unless he feels it's a good fit for him.

I really would like to sign him without signing Matsuiko. But if they're a package deal, then I understand.

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh77 on Nov 16, 2007 5:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

Thank you for your post above explaining that Fukudome and Matsui went to HS together, two years apart. No doubt, that means they are likely close friends.

As I said above, Matsui's not a great player but he is no worse a SS than Theriot, and if it helps bring Fukudome to the Cubs, I am 100% for it.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 17, 2007 4:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

If the Cubs have to sign Matsui to get Fukudome, sorry, last time I checked Fukudome is not Grady Sizemore or Matt Holiday, CUBS DO NOT NEED MATSUI, PERIOD. I saw that on "Our Favorite Site" and almost woofed up my Goo Goo Pan Duck, Please Jimbo NO.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Nov 16, 2007 4:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

The much easier solution

is to bring over, with Fukodome, whoever his personal assistant is and pay he/she also.

I'd hate to think that's the main reason Hendry would make this verrrry mediocre move.

by Peoria Matt on Nov 16, 2007 4:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Bring his best friend and pay him 50,000 a year and bring a trainer and pay him 50,000 a year, bring an interpreter and pay him 50,000 a year, but dont bring in Matsui for that reason. Its dumb and I also believe it was fabricated out of nowhere

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Nov 16, 2007 4:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

it could easily not be true

but i dont think its dumb. our number one hole is right field, and our biggest need is obp. if that means bring over kaz and then turning cedeno and patterson in a trade, i think we come out on top.

but hendry isn't just some idiot, he's not going to add a sixth middle infielder just for the hell of it.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 16, 2007 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I have to think

That if Soriano is as fluent in Japanese as all the reports state, Why not let him help Fukudome?

Also is there any truth to the notion that many Japanese players are fluent in Spanish also?

"I guess you had some lean years, and didnt have to beat it hard" - Craig Sager

by Galvan316 on Nov 16, 2007 4:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

As noted elsewhere...

... it's not just the language, it's the fact that these two are HS teammates and likely close friends.

The value of that, for someone coming to the USA for the first time, cannot be overestimated.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Nov 17, 2007 4:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cubs bringing in Matsui because he's good

Yes his major league numbers aren't great, but thats because he has been hurt. If he could ever stay healthy for a full season, he could be a 280-290, 340 OBP guy, with 10-15 HR, and 40-50 SB guy.

This guy was a 365-389 OBP guy from 1999-2003 in Japan. When he has played in over 100 plus games in the major leagues, he had 331 and 342 OBP in the major leagues. Don't pay any attention to his 05-06 numbers because he only played in 87+70 games.

This guy is very talented, he isn't some bum. I wouldn't be surprised if Matsui made alot of fans eat chow like the DeRosa signing last year. Health is the only thing thats holding Matsui back from being a quality player.

by cubsfan25 on Nov 16, 2007 4:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Health

Most players start to get injured more, and have more chronic problems, as they get older. If KazMat has chronic back problems now, how many games will he miss with back problems three years from now?

"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007

by DeRoMyHero on Nov 16, 2007 7:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I can't believe

...that no one had started a diary on this yet. Kaz Matsui to the Cubs? What?!?

by Wreckard on Nov 16, 2007 4:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

No kidding!!

I was going to start one, but my hand got a cramp!!

Well......I guess I should be 'BigZ (5th place) Cy'

by BigZ 4 Cy on Nov 16, 2007 5:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes to Matsui!!

He's more talented then all the other Cubs middle infielders, get rid of all them besides DeRosa.

The guy could play, did anyone else watch the Rockies playoff games? He can hit for average, has a little pop, has very good speed and is a good defensive player. He just needs to stay healthy and he could be a pretty good player.

So hopefully platooning and not playing everyday will keep him healthy, simliar to Cliff Floyd last year.

by cubsfan25 on Nov 16, 2007 4:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Matsui break down

Kaz started off the season healthy and hit 361-395 from April 2- 14. Then he of course he got hurt and didn't come back to May 22.

Matsui came back and was rusty and struggled for the rest of May, hitting only 219. That brought his numbers down to 294/ 324.

Matsui was healthy in June and hit 309/356, which made his numbers 303-343. Matsui slumped in July, but hit great in August. On September 1st he was hitting 303/348. But of course again Matsui got hurt in early September and missed a few weeks, and struggled to hit 224/316 in September.

So again if Matsui could ever be healthy for a fullseason, he could be a pretty good player.

by cubsfan25 on Nov 16, 2007 5:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think

I just threw up in my mouth. We're talking about the same Matsui who the Mets gave up on. And colorado left sitting in the minors most of last year. In other news teh Cubs have signed Neifi, Ramon Martinez and Dusty is the new manager. Man I hope this doesn't happen.

you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall.

by Hawk4Hall on Nov 16, 2007 5:33 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Man

people around here are prone to extreme reactions.

I think it's a bad move, but it's hardly a tragedy. Matsui is far better than Neifi. Kaz's career OPS+ is 82. Neifi's is 64. Matsui is not a good player, but he's not a sinking hole of ineptitude that Neifi is.

The Mets giving up on him is irrelevant. The Mets gave up on Scott Kazmir and Ty Wigginton too.

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh77 on Nov 16, 2007 6:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If I recall

Matsui was a SS when he came to the US.

Also, the Mets didn't give up on Kazmir-they traded him for the HOF'er Victor Zambrano, LOL!!
They must have thought they were getting Carlos.

by cubswin on Nov 16, 2007 6:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Japanese Connection

I love all the hype for Fukodome. Lets be honest, very few if any of us have seen him play. All the praise he gets now is nothing compared to the hype Matsui got before he came over here and look how thats turned out. Unfortunately or fortunatey for some of you...we just have to trust Jim Hendry.

by Comfortably Numb on Nov 16, 2007 6:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

incorrect stats

Is it just me or did anyone else notice that basically every stat you have for Theriot is incorrect?

ESPN says:
148games, 537ab, 143h, 30dub, 2trip, 3hr, 45rbi, 28sb, .266avg, .326obp.

Unless you were doing career stats, which would make no sense.

Matsui hit .288 with 24dub, 6trip, 4hr, 37rbi, 32sb, .342obp in just 104 games this season.

I like Theriot, but this is obviously a good move. A fast lefty at the top of the order. Thank you very much.

by zam on Nov 16, 2007 6:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

the numbers pulled

were from ESPN's average over a 162 game season. I think that's a better judge that individual periods.

I think those numbers show that Matsui would be a MASSIVE waste of money.

by SouthsideCub on Nov 17, 2007 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Is it possible....

...that the Rays (or another potential trading partner) may be interested in Theriot (or Derosa) over Cedeno? Perhaps this is why Hendry is looking to fill the void before the void is there. We sign Matsui, then include Theriot in the trade for Crawford (or other player). Just a thought.

by nevadadave on Nov 16, 2007 7:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Great point

One team that may be interested in DeRo is Cleveland. They apparently want better D and OBP than Casey Blake gives them in the #9 spot, and DeRo fits that bill exactly. Remember that Buck Showalter is now a special advisor with the Indians, and he glows like a proud papa whenever anyone asks him about his "find". How about a blockbuster? DeRo + Hill or Marmol + pitching prospect for Peralta?

Cubs get a SS with power and more upside than Tejada (and cost certainty since he is signed through his arb years), and the Indians improve 3B and their pitching staff. The Indians would probably get a little something for trading Blake as well.

Just a wild thought, not based on any "legitimate" rumor. That would explain why Hendry is trying to replace DeRo, and why he keeps saying that Riot will be the SS next year.

"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007

by DeRoMyHero on Nov 16, 2007 8:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Matsui not coming yet

I was just listening to Sports Centreal on WGN radio, and Kaplan(who said Matsui was close to coming to the Cubs yesturday) is now saying the Cubs and Matsui are talking, but not close to a deal. He also said the Cubs are talking to 4-5 other guys who could be bench/platoon player with good speed. So it looks like Kaplan got some bad information. I wouldn't be surprised if Matsui is holding out for more then the 3-4m per year the Cubs are probably offering.

Hopefully the Cubs and Matsui could get something done. Matsui would be a good piece to add to a good team.

by cubsfan25 on Nov 16, 2007 7:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

No No No

Look at his splits away from Coors.
2007 .249/.304/.333
2006 .225/.248

2005 total .255/.300/.352

Add to that he's only played in 87, 70 and 104 games the past 3 years. In the past 3 years he's had only 12 ABs as a SS. That means he's a replacement for DeRosa, not Theriot.

Can anyone really justify paying him almost $5M/yr for the next 3 years? Give the money to Fukudome if need be but please let's not add a soulmate that doesn't deserve a place on our roster. He's not a bad idea. He's a terrible idea.

It's not to late to go to Soto.

by tharr on Nov 16, 2007 7:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Stop with the Home/Away splits there silly

"Look at his splits away from Coors.
2007 .249/.304/.333
2006 .225/.248

2005 total .255/.300/.352

Add to that he's only played in 87, 70 and 104 games the past 3 years. In the past 3 years he's had only 12 ABs as a SS. That means he's a replacement for DeRosa, not Theriot."

In he only played in 87 games, so you can't judge him by those numbers. His away from Coors stats are misleading in 2006, because he struggled so bad with the Mets.(wasn't playing everyday)

Garrett Atkins hit 254 away from Coors, and Tulowitzki hit 256 away from Coors. Does that mean they would be 250s hitters on the Cubs? no and either will Kazuo Matsui.

Last but not least DeRosa is a everyday starter, Jim Hendry already said so. Kazuo Matsui will play shortstop, and the reason he didn't much the last few years is because of that Jose Reyes and Tulowitzki guy. Matsui's defensive struggled at short in 2004, but he has no adjusted playind defense in the major leagues.

by cubsfan25 on Nov 16, 2007 8:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

So what's your explanation for the 2007 splits?

By the way, his 2006 splits aren't misleading in any way. They calculate those based on road games for whatever team he was on at the time (so his away splits are his away games with NY and his away games with Colorado). The stats guys are smart enough to figure out how to calculate splits for home/away even if someone is traded.

Those splits should absolutely be a reason for concern. As should his history of injuries. Those are both red flags.

by SouthernCub on Nov 16, 2007 9:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Misread your post...

doesn't change the fact that his 2007 splits still stink, as do his 2006 and 2005 splits.

You keep making excuses to cover up what he's done bad, but the fact is he's done very little good in MLB, and he's had a lot of injuries (that's not a good excuse - that's a further reason for concern).

by SouthernCub on Nov 16, 2007 9:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

DeRosa can't be traded

He's way too important to the Cubs. It would really really hurt the Cubs, especially if they have a injury.

by cubsfan25 on Nov 16, 2007 8:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Fokudome is not that good to justify signing Kaz.

If Fokudome means taking Kaz Matsui as a combo, please pass on both. Save that money for pitching help. Priorities, please, Mr. Hendry.

by Fraggin Judge on Nov 16, 2007 9:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Haven't I read this before somewhere else?

Kaz Matsui is not great and in America, he will not be great. I think that cubsfan25 is a little too hopeful. But those throwing up in their mouths are going a little too far as well. If he just plays at the level he has been playing (adjusted for altitude) a Kaz-Theriot platoon is a decent upgrade on just Theriot. So, that's one question that has been debated without resolution in my mind - Can Kaz play SS?

The concern is that Kaz is for everyday 2B and DeRosa is trade bait. That does worry me. I think you'd have to get back a Jhonny Peralta or a Jed Lowrie for SS if DeRosa is going to be traded to have a legit upgrade. Theriot-Kaz up the middle effectively counterbalances any offensive upgrade you'd get signing Fukudome (compared to Theriot-DeRo-Murton).

So, I think there are ways Kaz Matsui could be a disappointment for the Cubs, but I think there are ways he could be useful.

Oh, and, fwiw, I think the Cubs might be able to get Peralta without giving up Hill or Marmol; the Indians needs and the Cubs tradeable parts match up fairly well. Consider the Indians if they had DeRosa and Marte and E-Pat and Barfield all competing for jobs in flexible platoons, that's not a bad IF, with Asdrubal Cabrera manning SS.

by DGU on Nov 16, 2007 10:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Why Can't DeRosa Be Your Ultra Utility Guy...

... like he was last year? That is not a dig on DeRosa, that's the best compliment you can give a player.

And, if your utility guys are of the caliber of DeRosa, you really have a championship type team.

by initram on Nov 16, 2007 11:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not if your middle IF is Matsui and Theriot...

that's two noodle bats in the lineup everyday if you make DeRosa the utility guy.

If Matsui is signed to be the LH portion of a Theriot/Matsui platoon at SS, that's tolerable. But DeRosa should be the everyday 2B, because his bat is SUCH an improvement over those two.

by SouthernCub on Nov 17, 2007 7:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I Can't Agree More

I have to imagine that there was an impact to DeRosa's bat by bouncing around defensively.

If he is stable defensively, it can only improve his chances of showing better already good offensive numbers.

by initram on Nov 17, 2007 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if they trade for kaz and trade away derosa,

i'm gonna be pissed.

"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Nov 17, 2007 12:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

DeRosa isn't going anywhere, I'm sure of it

DeRosa isn't getting traded, and he will be a everyday player, and play mostly at second base like last year.

I'm 100 percent sure DeRosa, so please everyone stop worry about that. Matsui(if he comes here)will play mostly shortstop(which he played his whole career until a couple years ago)and 2nd base here and there.

But this is getting really old, if you guys disagree that Matsui could be a good player thats fine. I just have a feeling alot of people are going to be wrong(he will be at worse a 270-330 guy). Lets just see what happens, and see if the Cubs even sign him.

by cubsfan25 on Nov 17, 2007 12:14 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Last time I checked

Matsui is 32, been hurt most of his time in the Bigs, was a wash in New York, so-so in Colorado and now the Cubs want to pay him 5M a year for 3, to play SS, which he struggled at in New York. I live in the East saw Matsui play, I was surprised how weak of an arm he had for a SS. Yes, Theriot is not Dunston, but fellas if Matsui is our SS it is a downgrade in the field and really not an upgrade with the Bat.
Why not give the Riot another full year? Geez I can't understand the glamoring of Kaz Matsui, ouch!!! This is Todd Hundley at SS. Please NO.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Nov 17, 2007 9:07 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

dont like it, then don't complain come season time

I'll take the 32 stolen bases in only 104 games anyday fellas. That's more than anyone on the team had all season. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, or quit complaining about the obvious lack of speed on this team, a major concern.

Or maybe we can force Soriano to run.....HA. Soriano does what Soriano wants to do, just like Lou's "experiment" with him batting 5th against lefties, that lasted a whole 1 game.

We need speed, we need pitching. That is all.

by zam on Nov 17, 2007 11:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Why do we need speed?

Boston did just fine with only 3 guys who could run. Cleveland did well and speed was not a big part of their game. How much speed did Colorado have outside of Kaz Matsui? One thing those teams had over our team were hitters who worked the count and got on base. I guess we could add more SPEED and lower OBP and be less like Cleveland and Boston and Colorado.

by DGU on Nov 17, 2007 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

LOB

left way too many runners on base. don't ever compare us to Boston, the offensive gap isn't even close. Soriano was brought here to hit and run. He only wants to do one and he completely fails at a few key aspects of it. He isn't a good base stealer either.

It's nice if you can turn 40-50 singles into doubles with just one player.

My, what a concept. Moving up a base without relying on the hitter? Good lord that has to be against the rules or something. Creating a possibility for a run, and ruling out a double play? Does the commissioner know about this yet?

BTW-get Soriano out of the leadoff spot, I can't stand to see him flailing at pitches 3 feet outside in that spot.

IDK about you, but I'll take Crawford instead of Soriano. Younger, faster, average improves every single season.

by zam on Nov 17, 2007 2:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Well.

Soriano had bad legs most of the season. Let him heal up and see what he does next year.

It's nicer to have a player who makes 40-50 less outs.

BTW - if Soriano is out of the leadoff spot, he'll get pitched out of the zone more often and flail more often. But maybe it will be easier for you to stand it if he flails with men on base.

IDK about you, but I'll take Soriano, Marmol, and Soto, and the two additional pitching prospects I'd lose in the cost to trade with Tampa Bay over just Crawford. Or did Carl Crawford opt out of his deal and I didn't hear about it?

by DGU on Nov 17, 2007 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

c'mon

it wouldnt cost 5 guys to get Crawford. You'd lose Hill, Marmol, and maybe someone like Fuld.

And how do you figure Soriano will get pitched around more with men on base? That goes against all logical thinking as a pitcher. Men on base means you need to get an out, and your last hope is to put him on for free.

by zam on Nov 17, 2007 2:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

How I figure

It cost three guys to get Juan Pierre for one year. Carl Crawford is getting paid 5 mill this year and has nice options both under 10 mill for the next two years. Carl Crawford has everything Pierre had plus power, plus the expectation of more power potential, plus an All-Star reputation inflated by his being one of the top 15 fantasy players. Isn't it fair to say that the price for Crawford would be 3-5 times that of the price of Juan Pierre? Alternatively, think of what the Braves paid for Mark Teixeira for half the service time you'd get with Crawford and half the dollars paid to the player. Is it fair to say the price for Crawford should be at least twice the price of Teixeira. If you don't think it's fair, don't you think Tampa Bay might think it's fair?

Soriano will see more breaking balls with men on base and he's a fastball hitter.
Soriano's numbers: career OPS: .844
w/RISP career OPS: .770
w/man on 1st: .848 (see, you're right when no base is open, he does fine, but...)
w/man on 2nd: .777 (he doesn't do as well and he doesn't take the walk all that often either)
w/man on 3rd: .686 (he does very poorly).

by DGU on Nov 17, 2007 3:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What are people smoking here??

Why do people think that if the Cubs offered Marmol, it would be anything close to sane?

This guy needs to stay. Much rather see hill go than Marmol. Did anyone actually WATCH him pitch last season? He is a must keep.

That being said, I was one of the first people here this offseason that said i would love to have Crawford here. I got flamed for it but i still would give up quite a bit for him.

I was asked over and over why the Rays would want Pie. Why in the world wouldn;t they want Pie?

If they already have OF for now, this is a 22 YO talent for the future. I would give up Pie for Crawford, though I like Felix. Throw in a couple prospects, and/or Hill/Marshall.

I know, it aint happenin.

MMMMM...Stuffed sausage from The Art of Pizza

by Kinky Reggae on Nov 19, 2007 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

no

you don't throw more breaking balls with men on base. it's basic knowledge. the last thing you want to do as a pitcher is put more guys on. so you try to make him get himself out by throwing good strikes. and, as you may know, soriano can rip anything close to the zone.

apparently we have very different views, so i'll just leave it at that.

by zam on Nov 17, 2007 4:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs