Philadelphia Sportswriter Bill Conlin Invokes Hitler
by Al Yellon on Nov 23, 2007 7:09 PM CST
in Chicago Cubs News
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PrintJust when I thought it was a slow sports weekend, my SBN colleague Peter at the Phillies site The Good Phight called our attention to an email exchange that another Phillies blogger had with Philadelphia Daily News writer Bill Conlin on the topic of Jimmy Rollins' MVP award victory and an article Conlin had written defending his vote for Rollins.
All pretty innocent, and a legitimate topic for debate, right? Conlin, as you'll see in the link, was a curmudgeonly jerk to Bill from crashburn alley, and then ended the exchange with this stunning verbiage:
Oh, man. Where do I even start with this? It is, first of all, fear showing on his part; fear that we bloggers might actually know something about what we write -- I, personally, take the comparison with the 18th-Century "Pamphleteers" as a badge of honor, as those men were among those who helped the colonial Americans throw off their shackles of bondage.
The reference to Hitler? Well, dajafi wrote at The Good Phight:
He may not, but I do. As a Jewish person, I am deeply offended by that reference; but I don't think you have to be Jewish to be offended. A quick google doesn't reveal Conlin's age, but he's been a sportswriter since the mid-1960's, which would make him at least 65 years old, not only old enough to know better, but old enough to understand exactly what Hitler meant to world history. This email exchange also hit Deadspin yesterday, and by posting it here I intend to help it get to a wider audience.
This isn't even about the arrogance that Conlin showed in his responses to crashburnalley. It's about simple human decency, something apparently completely absent in a smug, pompous ass of a writer whose sensibilities were left behind two centuries ago.
If you'd like to let Conlin's bosses know how you feel about this, you can find some relevant email addresses here. Bill Conlin's time for an audience should be done.
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Blogging is the balancing of the elitism that took
That said blogging is the modern day pamphleteers. Let us think of Paine's 'Common Sense' as a modern day blog.
That said it matters little in that blogging is here to stay and will proliferate as it balances the attempt to control information.
As far as control of information what a story on ABC and Chuck Gowdy this week about the JFK Assassination....holy mackeral....that is probably a peabody or something.
Yes, it's horribly pretentious...
What a maroon.
The simple fact of the matter is that guys like him are suddenly operating in a much different environment than they were just a decade or two ago. I'm sure when Conlin started writing, most of his readers at best had newspaper box scores, radio casts and maybe a Saturday game-of-the-week on TV. If I wanted to know something about baseball, Conlin and his ilk were the only source of information.
Nowadays, absent blackout rules I can watch any ballgame I want, I can go to MLB's website and watch highlights and full innings of any game I please, and have access to more stats and play-by-play data than even I know what to do with. And I can very cheaply publish my views to as many people as Conlin can, and it's stupid easy. Guys like him have gone from being the town crier to a voice in the crowd; they no longer control the flow of information, and this frightens them because we don't need them anymore, and unless you have the massive Rolodex and connections of guys like Gammons, Olney and Rosenthal you have very little value to add above and beyond what a passionate and knowlegable fan has to say.
It's an awful lot like watching buggy drivers protesting the advent of the automobile, or ice delivery services railing against the advent of the refridgerator -- or the record companies fighting against Internet downloading. The popular sporting press is coming upon an "adapt-or-die" moment, and a lot of them are stubbornly chosing to die. It's pathetic, and more than a little sad to watch, really.
I agree with a lot of what you said, cwyers
Before I launch in, full disclosure. I'm a reporter at a major American newspaper, though I haven't covered a sporting event since college. That said, I'm going to take issue with one thing you said.
"Guys like (Conlin) no longer control the flow of information, and this frightens them because we don't need them anymore, and unless you have the massive Rolodex and connections of guys like Gammons, Olney and Rosenthal you have very little value to add above and beyond what a passionate and knowlegable fan has to say."
First of all, there are a lot of good beat reporters out there covering baseball at major newspapers who AREN'T Buster Olney or Gammons. I'm not saying Conlin is any good, but I like Gordo at the Sun-Times. And what about BCB fav Bruce Miles?
Second, members of the press, ideally, should be DISPASSIONATE. And that's the difference between what we do here and what sports journalists are supposed to do.
Cwyers, you clearly spend a LOT of time researching your posts, and that's great. But a sports journalist's value is that he/she does that without bias (or, at least, that's how it's supposed to work).
That doesn't mean your posts aren't valuable -- but they're not impartial. And it's that impartial stance that journalists are supposed to bring to the table.
I think most journalists do a very good job when it comes to that. And, no, I'm not impartial on that point, and, yes, I know I'm about to get flamed by every Rush Limbaugh fan who reads this site.
All I'm saying is that good sports reporters had more than "a little value" before more information became generally available, and they still have it today.
Conlin is the exception. Not the rule.
You're right, except....
What you said about reporters, whether writing about sporting events or hard news, however, is absolutely correct.
true
I guess I just hate blog posts that attack ALL journalists. But go crazy on Conlin. What a douche bag.
Olney, Gammons and Rosenthal...
Exactly.
Absolutely the blogs haven't replaced the beat writers as the primary source of information; they have access that bloggers can't match. Conlin doesn't have a beat, per se - he covers a variety of local and national sports topics, and often has to be critical of his subjects to do his job well. That necessarily curtails the sources he has.
The fact is that bloggers and beat writers are complimentary to each other -- sports blogs couldn't function, or at least function well, without professional sportswriting. On the other hand, guys like Conlin -- who provide narrative, not facts -- do pretty much the same thing as bloggers; the sad truth is, they're not doing it as well as the best bloggers out there.
fair enough
I got to know many reporters
Blogging is an extension of the message boards that sprang up in the '90's, and are an interesting exchange of thoughts and expressions. In fact I often enjoy reading the reaction to news posts than the original news item.
That said the dynamics of news and information is changing, the exchange is two-way or more a BLOWBACK broadcast. The only trouble of course is substantiation. Sometimes I am told things in private conversations from those I know who have some basis of knowledge but can't release it, some of course is conjecture.
But the columnist is the worst offender, they are there to agitate, draw interest or eye balls, and the marginal ones simply offer little reporting. But I respect genuine journalists. Few people know the issue of coming to an editor with a story that is not quite there but has the legs and trying to get people on the record where ultimately the whole story is never really told. But when a journalist does get a story it is a grand thing.
I agree. And
by TheEman on Nov 24, 2007 9:04 AM CST up reply actions
Thanks for the great post
by markleonette on Nov 23, 2007 11:08 PM CST up reply actions
According to his bio on philly.com
I remember reading this guy in the Sporting News in the late 70s. He was an arrogant jerk then.
The good news out of all this is that he's probably doomed his chances at the Spink Award, which he never deserved in the first place.
what a dick
As a Jew.....
As disgusted as I am, I stand by his right to say it. I want for people like Mr. Conlin to have a forum to speak his mind. Freedom exposes one's true feelings. It is a window to one's sole. Mr. Conlin should be fired because his views are vile and disgust the people who pay his salary; the advertisers and the public that pay .50 for the dead tree edition.
I also want Mr. Conlin to have a forum because it allows Al, other bloggers and all of US to voice our opinions. I am not comparing what Conlin said to what is voiced here. What I am saying is that stopping one person, no matter how vile their opinion is, is the first step in allowing others to make judgments of what can and can't be said. I am comfortable making these decisions myself.
by timeforachange on Nov 23, 2007 9:06 PM CST reply actions
He's always been like this.
If you remember him from he was on ESPN's "The Sports reporters", he hasn't changed. He shows up once a week on Daily News Live on Comcast Sportsnet and barely brings anything to the conversation. He can't keep up with the changing times.
You should have heard the distain he had for blogs and other forms of electronic media when they reported rumors about how Andy Reid was going to resign because of the trouble his sons were in. Conlin went off on the bloggers stating that they can say anything they want and don't have to backcheck sources, or venture in the clubhouse or locker room for to face the people they are writing about.
Conlin's been in trouble for comments he made before. In his past columns, he would refer to a team, management, coach, etc...... having a "final solution" to a problem with the issue facing that team. He used that many times in the past before his editors told him to stop using that phase.
I have a feeling that Bill might have written his last column for the Philadelphia Daily News.
Sure he has a right to speak.
There's simply no obligation on the part of his employer to retain him after he went ahead and used offensive and demeaning language towards a paying customer. If the counter clerk at Taco Bell told a customer "The good thing about Hitler is that he would have killed all of your kind off," he'd be summarily fired. I don't see what makes Bill Conlin all that different.
And, to address another point, I really don't care that it was in an e-mail. Let's put it to you this way - let's say that the Phillies GM were to respond to one of Bill Conlin's columns in a racially offensive fashion. Lay me the odds that Conlin wouldn't print that.
I'm not saying two wrongs make a right (not that I think that there's any reasonable expectation of privacy; just that I don't really want to have that arguement). I'm just saying that of all people he should know better.
What.....
by timeforachange on Nov 24, 2007 4:59 AM CST up reply actions
Surely I can't be the only one
Conlin's comments were disgusting, shocking, ridiculous, offensive, and every other nasty term you can imagine. They were also never intended for your eyes or mine, or anybody's but the person at the other end of that email addy.
At least guys like John Rocker and Tim Hardaway expressed their barbaric views in a public forum, and knowingly and willingly put their hateful thoughts out there for public consumption. Not so here.
I can in no way defend the comments themselves. They are absolutely reprehensible, and never should have been thought, let alone expressed.
But by the same token, I can't shake the thought that on some level, Conlin is getting a raw deal here. He only meant those comments for one person, a person he clearly perceived to be disrespecting and mocking him and his column. I'm sure that similar circumstances, many of us have said some meanspirited things we've been ashamed of, but more to the point, things that we would be absolutely mortified to have broadcast beyond the intended recipient.
by davearm on Nov 23, 2007 10:33 PM CST reply actions
That was my reaction too
Maybe the guy has a history of this stuff and deserves to be outed on it. If so, maybe that should have been done, in the first instance, in another private communication to his bosses. But if not, if this was isolated in a private email exchange, the blogger should merely have invoked Godwin's Law* in his last reply, and in the process educated Conlin on the long tradition of open debate on the Internet.
*Or at least one interpretation of it, the one that states: "A good rule in most discussions is that the first person to call the other a Nazi automatically loses the argument."
Er, that is...
This is essentially a cliche.
Let's reexamine the money quote: "I think I'll let the words I wrote after the death of my dear friend and colleague, the former local Associated Press Bureau Chief Ralph Bernstein and the nearly half century relationship my wife and I have had with Ralph and his family through good times and bad represent me against any contrived and baseless attempt to slime me as an anti-Semite."
I'm not going to address the substance here. It's possible, perhaps even likely, that Conlin is both a philo-Semite and an all-around decent human being.
But seriously. How tone deaf and PR-unsavvy do you have to be to trot out "Many of my best friends are Jews!" when you're accused of anti-Semitism? Isn't there ANYTHING else you could have lead off with there?
i find it interesting
if you're interested
http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/11/thanksgiving-more-like-nothanksgiving.html
If you want to whine about having to back check sources and doing things of the sort you damn well better be at least a halfway decent journalist and if this article is even remotely representative of how he normally writes, he's pretty bad.
as an example
"I was concerned that Rockies hitting dynamo Matt Holliday, the close runner-up, might steal the election with the hanging chad of his heroic batwork in the Rockies dramatic comeback playoff victory over the Diamondbacks. I could envision BBWAA ball writers ready to e-mail the results of a season extended to 163 games, needing just to fill in lines 1 and 2."
Setting aside the pretty crappy writing...can anyone spot the pretty frickin obvoius factual error in this paragraph? Oh yeah, the Rockes SWEPT THE DIAMONDBACKS!!! It wasn't a comeback!
You, Bill Conlin, are an absolute moron.
As a sidenote, I don't know what the original emailer wrote, but I wouldn't be surprised if the FJM article came up.
Not that I want to defend Conlin here...
That wasn't a "playoff"; if Conlin wanted to be accurate he should have called it "the wildcard tiebreaker game".
Holliday did have a good night that night; 2-for-6 with a triple and scored the run that put the Rockies into the playoffs (and yes, I know he still hasn't touched the plate), and his 2 RBI gave him the RBI title.
Update...
Well-written and an excellent summary of the issues raised here.
Al...
Conlin should be fired for being an idiot and knowing nothing about the game. There's no business whatsoever in keeping him on when he knows more about hop scotch than he does baseball. He should be fired, suspended or reprimanded because of some tasteless joke that OBVIOUSLY was not said with the intention of being anti-Semitic.
I agree
- You're a Mets fan and you had your little bubble of arrogance and smugness burst. Your team choked big time, an epic gagaroo.
- I wonder how it feels to be the Phillies bitch.
And those comments....
Thanks for your reasoned response...
Maybe it's personal for me and I take it a little more so that way because I'm Jewish. Had you lost an entire branch of your family in the Holocaust, I don't think you'd say it's "nothing". What he said takes an event that destroyed the lives of millions of people and 1) dilutes the impact of that loss and 2) says he'd just as soon have what happened there happen to others, because they're a member of a certain group.
There is a poem attributed to a German priest, Martin Niemoller, originally a supporter of Hitler but who later became a passionate opponent of Hitler. You've probably heard it; one variation goes:
- but I was not a communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists,
- but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews,
- but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.
And yes, I believe this is relevant. We must never forget what Hitler did and what his regime represented. Comments like Conlin's, whether said privately or publicly, show that perhaps we need to be more diligent in remembering.
I'm not
I wasn't saying that what Hitler did was nothing. I would never say such a thing. I was saying that what Conlin said was nothing in that it was not an anti-Semitic remark. We've become way too sensitive these days.
He wasn't praising Hitler for exterminating Jews. In fact, he said the one positive thing about him was that he would have gotten rid of bloggers, which implies that everything else Hitler did was wrong.
Perhaps he shouldn't have used Hitler's name when talking about bloggers. There's really no need to, but it was not an anti-Semitic response on his part and it shouldn't be treated as such. There's no evidence whatsoever that he is an anti-Semite.
Fire him for being less intelligent about baseball than the average 7 year old.
Absolutely...
Again, as you said, a long debate on this is likely pointless. Suffice to say that I was offended, and I accept that you didn't see it that way. Reasonable people can disagree reasonably, and I thank you (and others who have posted thoughtfully in this thread) for doing so.
Fair enough.
I would like to say that I don't think the MSM fears becoming irrelevant, however. I think the executives fear that, but most of the writers fear they'll be exposed for what they are -- hacks with little or no knowledge about what they are writing about. I think Conlin's emotional response confirms that. Blogs give people the ability to remark, publicly, on the same events that columnists do and many times the blogger proves to be the more intelligent and more knowledgeable person. I think many bloggers have exposed MSM writers for their lack of intelligence and knowledge about what they write. I don't think they have a fear of becoming irrelevant. We're too "NOW" oriented to consider long-term possibilities subconsciously.
I'm not sure what you're arguing here.
The fear of becoming irrelevant
We're arguing a small difference, but I think there is one.
I see your point.
There will likely be no resolution.
Most people that read that article didn't flinch. They probably didn't question whether Conlin was right or not and they probably didn't even care.
The people who comment on line or write blogs are the few who do care. A large business isn't going to make changes to please the few when the many aren't unhappy to begin with.
What if the few
Also, if your hypothesis is true, why the huge proliferation of sports blogs, not just in the US, but all over the world? Why do even newspapers have blogs? Read through some of posts about the Braves on a paper like the Atlanta Journal Constitution, or some of the posts about the Astros on the Houston Chronicle, to use some examples. Most of the posters are not SABR-heads. That doesn't mean that they blindly agree with the blog authors.
Or go look at the blogs on the British newspaper, the Guardian, to use a non American example. Many of the posters that respond to the Guardian's writers are passionate and knowledgeable.
by rfloh @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Nov 24, 2007 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
The proliferation of sports blogs
The point I'm trying to make is that a newspaper like the one Conlin works at isn't going to make a decision regarding its sportswriters based on keeping a few happy. It's also relatively simple...it's easier to keep the simpletons happy than it is the more knowledgeable fan base. There are fewer knowledgeable fans.
As for why some newspapers have blogs, it's also simple. To publish something in the daily paper you need more than one source and there's only one publication. A writer for a newspaper has more freedom online and can post news immediately. Go read the comments left on The Tribune's Hardball blog. Sullivan and the rest are writing for the same people that read their articles in the paper. Just the online version of them. Most of the comments I've read on that site are from fans with little knowledge of the game.
As for the question about the few spending the most money on the product, the answer is that they don't. Again, these people represent so little of the readership. What would make me happy would piss off about 95% or more of the rest of the people.
No, most fan comments
My point is that you are overrating the "knowledgeable" fans and underrating the "simpletons".
Yes, the proliferation is in line with the proliferation of other blogs. So? Still doesn't change the fact that a huge amount of people, not just some small "knowledgeable" group are involved in blogs.
by rfloh @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Nov 25, 2007 12:36 AM CST up reply actions
Look up the White Rose
by rfloh @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Nov 24, 2007 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
Not anti-semitic perhaps
by rfloh @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Nov 24, 2007 9:46 AM CST up reply actions
So, now
Conlin made an error in judgment. He was pissed off and incapable of intelligently arguing his reasons for Rollins deserving the MVP with someone who was obviously more intelligent than he was. He threw a fit and said something he shouldn't have said. That's all there is to it.
By the way, I'm sure I've said, at one point or another, that an entire group of people NOT based on race or religion should be eliminated. I may have even said it about the mainstream media. I didn't mean it. I doubt Conlin did either.
I'm sure most of the rest of you here have said similar stuff at one point or another...most likely in frustration or as a joke or something. We don't always mean what we say.
And if their hobbies happen
Also, isn't it Conlin who has done the grouping together?
Look, I understand that Conlin was pissed off. As I pointed out to the author of Crash Burn Alley elsewhere, linking to Fire Joe Morgan in his initial email was unwise, and probably provoked Conlin.
Conlin could have snarked about noses in spreadsheets, slide rules, pocket protectors, mom's basements, and it would have been par for the course.
He instead chose to make a snark about exterminating people.
I'm usually way to sarcastic when I argue about baseball. But no, I've never advocated that anyone be exterminated.
by rfloh @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Nov 24, 2007 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
Of course not...
In my opinion, Conlin was obviously not being serious with his comment about Hitler. Poor judgment on his part for sure.
Yes, poor judgement.
by rfloh @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Nov 24, 2007 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
Meh.
So if he is unwilling
by rfloh @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Nov 24, 2007 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
Regrettably
In the past public comments were subject to approval in the letters to the editor. Nowadays bloggers have no such restraint. Conlin blew it. He owes an apology. Don't expect one.
Al
I am not as outraged as you and other seem to be. Conlin really wrote something ignorant but I am so much more offended when world leaders openly question if the holocust even happened. I am more physically ill when I hear such things and "outraged" is appropiate, at least to me.
Conlin's comments expose him for what he it.
Many big city newspapers
Conlin was just doing his assigned job. When his column generated lots of reaction, he probably got a pat on the head from his bosses and a big Xmas bonus. People getting riled over his schtick are doing exactly what he wanted.
In the online world, the best way to handle a troll is to ignore him or her.
Yeah.... they all have a schtick.
Disclosure: I'm a member of the tribe.
I'm relatively unphased
I really couldn't care less about what this guy wrote. He might as well have written: "I wish all bloggers were taken out back and shot in the head". Which doesn't offend me, should it really? I believe he only referenced Hitler IN AN E-MAIL for a (achieved) dramatic effect.
He also said "The only positive thing I can think of about Hitler's time on earth..." he seems pretty resolute to me that he didn't approve of Hitler nor his actions.
I may not applaud his historical reference, but I certainly would go to bat for him to defend his right to say it, a la Noam Chomsky. Every man needs to have the same rights extended to him, whether his views be just or not.
But again, and I think most importantly, this was written in an E-MAIL, this was not published word, this wasn't intended for public viewing by any stretch of the imagination. Granted this wasn't sent to one of his buddies, it was sent to a guy he meant to offend (a blogger, not a Jew or any other non-Aryan sect of humanity), but censorship is a scary scary thing. He best be watching his words when it comes to his column, but the word gestapo should have no influence over his unpublished thoughts and words.
Someone once said...
I think mainstream journalists are afraid of losing their jobs to "amateur" bloggers. As if a degree in Journalism separates the competent from the unprinted masses.
The fact is that newspaper circulation is down. Due to bloggers? Partially I'm sure. Doesn't excuse an invocation of Adolf Hitler.
I must disagree in part
Conlin acted like a jerk. It happens every day. It supposedly was a private email. Do we start extending censorship to telephone calls and private conversations?
I can almost guarantee that Conlin has been the subject of many flaming criticisms on the local blogs just as Mariotti and Rogers and Muskrat. I am certain that a number of them were below the belt and personal.
Perhaps everyone should endeavor to raise the standard by which they communicate.
Yeah...
Hitler and the Nazis, however, are most often recognized as the most evil scum to ever inhabit this planet.
If it was a private e-mail it shouldn't have been leaked, but it's out there now, and people are covering it and commenting on it.
No, we should not censor private communication. I'm the first one against a "Thought Police", but the comment is out there. Should we not now hold him accountable for it? And, instead of blaming those who comment on his stupid remark, perhaps we should blame the person who leaked the e-mail. That person is the one invading Conlin's privacy.
So, perhaps we shouldn't comment it, and should've ignored the contents of a private correspondence. But, you can't unring a bell. Let's just remember this for the future.
by Snake Plissken on Nov 24, 2007 6:36 PM CST up reply actions
I have always felt
The first amendment is all ours to cherish, but the fact is, the media (and even hollywood) has a very powerful ability to sway how many people perceive reality and a lot of people abuse this by bending or ignoring the truth in how they report or tell a story. The good news is, in today's information world, there are too many iniformed people to not see through this, and eventually, most of the abusers get called to task.
Unfortuanately, some people get away with it for a long time and it causes damage, but I would think Conlin has suffered serious damage from his stupid comments.
A few thoughts
I don't believe that he's anti-semitic. I also don't believe that the fact that I'm Jewish makes me any more or less worth of having indignation towards Hitler and anti-semitic comments. I hope everyone is outraged by antisemitism. But I don't believe Conlin's comments to be anti-semitic, but they are still stupid at the very least and quite possibly dangerous and threatening.
It doesn't matter if the email was intended to be private or public. As a columnist Conlin is a public figure and he should be smart enough to realize that his making incendiary statements are likely to end up on a blog or other website.
I do think at times, however, many who post on blogs diminish what writers do and inflate what bloggers do. Yes, there are many excellent bloggers and many crappy writers. Both have their places, thats for sure. But people seem to thumb their noses at times towards writers as though they were just given their jobs with no work done to earn them and they seem to feel that the comments made are just fabrication and/or without a great deal of leg work done. Blogs often come without any responsibility and the posters are provided a great amount of anonymity that allows them to say whatever they wish. We tend to go to extremes here and we miss some vital middle ground.
Oh, and since when is Barry Rozner a designated a**hole? I've rarely read one of his columns and felt that they were incendiary.
DmL
Anti-Semitic or not...
You can say, correctly, that this was in a private email exchange that Conlin probably didn't think was going to be public, and you'd be right, although the other side of that coin is, as discussed here, that Conlin is a public figure and since this was in response to a column he wrote, written by a blogger, he should have guessed it might be posted.
But beyond that is this. How old is Conlin, 12? The bottom line is that stuff like that just isn't funny. If Conlin thinks that's funny, he needs to have his sense of humor removed.
I have a 12-year-old son who's smarter than that.
I think I've found a new home for Conlin
"To retain a strong hold, Kim Jong-il has sequestered his citizens from the world. Cell phones are illegal--mine was confiscated on arrival and returned to me when I left the country. Regular people cannot access the Internet, and newspapers consist of state propaganda. Radios and TVs receive only government channels (security forces enter homes to make sure this is so)."
http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2007/edition_11-25-2007/North_Korea
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