Prior Poll and Marquis

by Snake Plissken on Nov 28, 2007 11:52 PM CST

From MLBtraderumors.com (Yeah I know).

And I quote:

"The Cubs are listening to offers for Jason Marquis, who is owed $16.25MM over 2008-09. So maybe they are still in on Kuroda."

"Crasnick reports there would be huge interest in Mark Prior if the Cubs non-tender him. As in, pretty much every team in baseball. Crasnick's source indicates that Prior and the Cubs don't have the best relationship."

OK, we all knew it was coming, I'm just the messenger.

Poll

Should the Cubs keep Mark Prior?

Yes

172 votes

No

26 votes

198 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

Tweet Comment 58 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

My view is yes.

We all know his potential. We all know what he did in 2003. We all know his injury history.

My point, however, is the man is just 27 years old. The Cubs can afford a few million on a pitcher with, when healthy, Cy Young potential.

For anyone who scoffs at that, please see Chris Carpenter.

by Snake Plissken on Nov 28, 2007 11:46 PM CST reply actions

It's not so simple

The Cubs would like to keep him, but he's going to be out until July or August, like Woody was this season.

The Cubs want to sign him to a two-year deal, because it wouldn't make any sense to pay him for two months of pitching and then have him walk at the end of the season. (He'll be eligible for free agency after this season.) But if Prior refuses to sign a two-year deal, then they have to let him go because offering him arbitration is pretty worthless because of his injury situation.

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh Timmers on Nov 29, 2007 1:59 AM CST reply actions

Take a shot....

I think put up a 2 year incentive rich deal and see if he takes it. Then the ball is in his court, not the Cubs. I too understand that the relationship is not the best in the world, but the club would show their interest in their INVESTMENT. They gambled on Marquis and won. They gambled on Miller and lost. The gambled on Wood and are winning, so why not take another shot. He's as good as is hype...I'd hate to be the ones he does it against instead of for.

by mattmilzarek on Nov 29, 2007 6:33 AM CST reply actions

I'm guessing they've already done this...

are are trying to do this. If I had to guess, they said "we want to keep you, but we want to keep you for 2 years, so that we actually get some benefit, rather than paying for your rehab next year and losing you to free agency and only getting a few months of pitching." If this speculation is accurate, it sounds like Prior is less interested in signing that deal and more interested in moving on to another team after 2008. Hence the trade rumors.

Of course, it all could be bologna. We've already seen plenty of evidence of these writers and sites showing they have no idea what they're talking about.

by SouthernCub on Nov 29, 2007 8:05 AM CST up reply actions

Here's the question

Some are saying Prior is not worth 4 mill if he'll walk next year. I think you have to ask yourself this, then - if Prior goes to the Padres and pitches against the Cubs in Game 7 of the LCS, will he have been worth 4 mill then?

I know some of you are convinced that he's not going to be at that level of play anytime in '08, but I think there is at least a 1-in-10 chance that he will be, and to me, that's worth 4 mill.

To me, if we're going to rehash the Prior debate, it's worth everyone posting their odds that Prior could be a playoff-caliber pitcher in October 2008.

by DGU on Nov 29, 2007 7:59 AM CST reply actions

Thank you

n/t

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Nov 29, 2007 10:13 AM CST up reply actions

I don't the the issue

is whether Prior has any chance at being an effective pitcher by late 08 because anything is possible and he has talent. The question is whether the best strategy is to move forward with him without the option of bring him back in 09.

We all know shoulders are touchy and the likelyhood of him having difficulties in 08 is probably higher than him being a consistant effective pitcher. I would give him a 1 in 5 chance of being in a position to start an important game down the stretch. IMO, the most likely scenerio would be this; he has some set backs along the way in the spring and summer and most likely would start fewer than 7-8 games during the season, with limited effectivness.

You also have a possiblility of him having a relatively major setback (before he pitches in a game) and is basically shut down for the entire year. To me, this is probably as likely as him pitching like he did in 03 and 04 from summer on.

All in all, if he is not willing to give the option year, I go in a different direction in regards to having another body available with him out of the picture.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 29, 2007 10:33 AM CST up reply actions

You know what's funny?

Things have probably not been right with the Cubs and Prior going all the way back to at least 2003.

I sat next to Jerry Prior (his dad) on a flight the day after Game 7 against the Marlins. He had a lot of negative things to say about the organization (although most of them were directed at Dusty and Sammy, LOL). But a couple things really stuck in my head:

He didn't see Mark and Kerry staying together for the long haul because one or both would have to take the Yankees huge offer that would eventually come.
He didn't want his son to be the Dan Marino of baseball, getting close to a championship at a very young age and then never getting another chance (i.e., because he stuck with the loser Cubs).

How relevant is all this? Probably not very. But I do think it was a peak into the mentality that has become more pervasive over the years. Prior (or at least his Dad) does not respect the Cub organization, and has no special place in his heart for the Cubs, their fans, and Wrigley Field like, say, Kerry Wood does.

by paulucla on Nov 29, 2007 9:17 AM CST reply actions

Sounds like Jerry Prior...

... is the source of a lot of the attitude some people infer that Mark Prior has.

Instead of becoming the Dan Marino of baseball, Prior may be remembered as the Todd Marinovich of baseball.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 29, 2007 9:20 AM CST up reply actions

I would think

some sweeping in front of Jerry Prior's door has been a bit overdue.

If he thinks their act will play better somewhere else, go for it.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 29, 2007 9:46 AM CST up reply actions

BINGO

I've noticed this Spring training after Spring training. Prior doesn't make a move without checking with his father. Nice in and of itself, but if there was ever a stage father as opposed to a stage mother in baseball it's Jerry Prior. When Prior has actualy been healthy enough to participate in Spring training, his father is practically glued to the clubhouse door on the side of the stands. One time Matt Clement's then pregnant wife made conversation with him while she was waiting for Clement. She asked if Mark was going to be going to some function most of the others were going to attend, and Prior's father said that Mark "didn't clear it with me" so no, he wasn't going. Clement's wife just said "I see."

Prior's father has managed Prior's baseball activities all his life, including making him transfer from Vanderbilt to USC to engaging Tom House to be his personal coach to the virtual exclusion of most all Cub coaching. We've joked here before that one of Prior's ailments was vaginitis, and in a figurative sense the joking might be closer to the truth than is known.

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Nov 29, 2007 10:47 AM CST up reply actions

Given all this...

... in retrospect, the Cubs should have taken Mark Teixeira.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 29, 2007 11:58 AM CST up reply actions

Todd Marinovich of baseball...

Haha well said. Just as long as he doesn't become the Ryan Leaf.

Fantastic, Jim. Another middle infielder!

by Mapanator on Nov 29, 2007 11:08 AM CST up reply actions

I voted yes

But sometimes there are bad apples and I'm beginning to wonder if Prior is one of them. If Prior and the Cubs have a bad relationship, then he's really in the minority to all the other players that have gone through the organization. If Prior only had the talent level of, say, Kent Mercker, he wouldn't be on this team.

Even all super hot women have some guy in their life that just got sick of their crap.

by NO100 on Nov 29, 2007 9:21 AM CST reply actions

Or...

What if the "super hot woman" who was abused by "some guy" and is waiting in the hospital to see what she's going to look like when the bandages come off. What's the matter with her? Why can't she just forgive her abusive boyfriend and show some loyalty?

The way Mark Prior's arm was used in 2003 probably cost the Prior family 75-125 million dollars, maybe twice that if he could have maintained a long career. It's one thing, I'd guess, if you got injured and the fans still loved you. It's another when it's not your fault you got injured and then the fans call you "soft" and the management doesn't defend you.

I just don't get why anyone thinks Prior should show the Cubs ANY loyalty, other than that, as Cubs fans, we wish he would.

by DGU on Nov 29, 2007 9:38 AM CST up reply actions

Apart from the "soft" comments...

... one could say the same about Kerry Wood and the money he might have made (although he did get one large contract, which Prior didn't).

Different personalities react to these situations in different ways. The way we've seen Wood and Prior react to similar troubles is enlightening.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 29, 2007 9:51 AM CST up reply actions

Yes and no

Yes, there are different personalities involved, but Kerry Wood was shown A LOT more love from Cub fans than Prior has been shown.

I also think Wood doesn't blame the Cubs for his injuries, while, at least, Jerry Prior does, and probably Mark does, too.

If you think Mark is wrong to blame the Cubs, well, then, you're probably going to say, "Where's the loyalty?" I don't think he is wrong.

by DGU on Nov 29, 2007 10:48 AM CST up reply actions

Loyalty

As far as I'm concerned, loyalty only extends as long as the contract. I've seen enough situations to know that Management isn't going to show an employee loyalty if they don't think there's something in it for them (or at least that's rare). The best one can hope for is that both sides live up to the agreement. After that, it's nothing personal, just business.

However, to further the analogy, the Cubs have had a lot of girlfriends. None of the other ones are saying they were abused. In fact, they almost always have said that they really liked dating the Cubs. But maybe the Cubs one night did something unforgivable. Maybe Prior has a point and is right. All I'm saying is that his experiences and comments are different than the experiences and comments that other girlfriends, er players, have said.

by NO100 on Nov 29, 2007 10:20 AM CST up reply actions

Girlfriends may talk among themselves

But it rarely becomes public. I wonder how Matt Clement feels about where his career has gone since he was a Cub. That he and other Cub and former-Cub pitchers don't bad mouth the Cub organization is just good business sense on their part; it doesn't necessarily reflect how they feel about the situation.

And to further the analogy to another level of absurdity - some girls think it's just the way things are that boyfriends knock them around a little. Some pitchers are themselves opposed to pitch counts. (Do we now need to add a "This thread and the comments in it from both perspectives should in no way be considered to condone spouse abuse, something that is always bad"? Consider it done.)

But you're right that in today's business, mutual player/management loyalty is extremely rare. Just look at the Bagwell situation in Houston and how Todd Helton was almost traded. Whatever we think of Prior, we should be glad for the relationship Kerry Wood and the Cubs have.

by DGU on Nov 29, 2007 10:58 AM CST up reply actions

OK, enough with the analogy

Prior may be right. Perhaps the Cubs did overuse him. I'm not in any way saying that I can go so far as to say that perception would be wrong.

But getting back to the whole professional relationship between the Cubs and Prior, it seems that he has a bitterness towards them that other players don't seem to have. Lee and Ramirez both came back and signed contracts that were below what they could have recieved in the open market. I'm not saying that's loyalty at all, but I am saying that they saw an organization that they wanted to be a part of and were willing to give a little to do that. Maddux didn't need contractual language to have a no-trade clause. It was a handshake between him and Hendry.

I don't know what happens in these personal interactions, but it seems that, based on public comments and actions of other players, Prior's impression of the Cubs organization is very different than the norm.

Prior may be right, but to suggest that perhaps Prior might also be a bad apple, is, in my opinion, completely justified.

by NO100 on Nov 29, 2007 11:11 AM CST up reply actions

The psychoanalysis on this thread ..

.. has been nothing short of amazingly thought provoking. The interplay of romantic metaphor to MLB business is nothing new, but hearing it so well spelled out here has been really fascinating.

IMHO, if we take this up a step, the analogy of the Cubs relationships with their players have been trying to be more like grudging polygamists lately, especially with A-Ram and D Lee, while Soriano is bound to the Cubs for a long time to come. I think the honeymoon was fraught with promise and frustration. Variety is the spice of life, ain't it and the Cubs have their girls on the side also. I hope their abuse is over, but they occasionally have their dark secrets (Ohman) and their flirtations are rumored everywhere.

You guys should create a cable TV show on CLTV with Dr. Phil about this, and then maybe a reality show based on it. I would pay anything to watch a season of it, or buy the DVD boxed set at the end.

Good thread .. !

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Nov 29, 2007 11:57 AM CST up reply actions

Ha!

I'm glad you liked the discourse. Nice additions too.

by NO100 on Nov 29, 2007 1:47 PM CST up reply actions

Please - it's bad enough that Phil Rogers is

a newspaper columnist, but if you put a "Dr." in front of his name, he's going to be absolutely insufferable... ;-)

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Nov 29, 2007 3:32 PM CST up reply actions

I Don't Get The "Abuse His Arm" Bit...

....some people say when talking about Prior in 2003. The guy was a 6'5" 225 lbs. freaking HORSE, only 23 years old, and pitched only 211 innings all year, with just three complete games, averaging seven innings a start. That's what he was getting PAID to do. And if he was good, and he was, you ride that horse, except the Cubs pitched Kerry Wood the same amount of innings with one more CG, Zambrano three innings more with three CGs,, and Clement just ten innings less with 2 CGs. Fifth starter Shawn Estes worked 152 innings with a CG. Matter of fact, Wood, Clement and Zambrano all 32 starts and Prior just 30, Estes had 29. The workload was spread pretty evenly, which is hardly abuse.

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Nov 29, 2007 11:04 AM CST up reply actions

Well, there is a pattern

Prior - Arm Surgery
Wood - Arm Surgery
Clement - Arm Surgery

Is there a correlation between their arm troubles and 2003? Who knows, but there does seem to be a trend there.

"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Nov 29, 2007 11:12 AM CST up reply actions

Which says to me.....

....if these guys can't pitch 32 starts a year, they shouldn't be starters, at a minimum, or pitchers at all in the bigs, because they won't learn proper mechanics and/or have the genes necessary to last. Wood's current situation seems to confirm that.

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Nov 29, 2007 11:16 AM CST up reply actions

You could be right

but with Prior, and I know I will get mobbed for this, I really feel that the collision with Marcus Giles scrambled something in his shoulder. How many starts did he miss? One? I can just hear Baker, "Dude said he was ok, so, dude, he's ok."

Perhaps it didn't cause immediate damage but to continue to put him out on the mound, well, I'm not doctor, but may have caused damage to progressively happen.

"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Nov 29, 2007 11:31 AM CST up reply actions

But.....

....if Prior says he's ok, what's Baker to do?

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Nov 29, 2007 11:32 AM CST up reply actions

Exercise some common sense......

with the 22 year old face of the franchise?

RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Nov 29, 2007 11:34 AM CST up reply actions

exactly

act like a manager perhaps?

"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Nov 29, 2007 11:39 AM CST up reply actions

Hindsight's great, isn't it?

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Nov 29, 2007 11:44 AM CST up reply actions

What the hell do you need hindsight for........

it was a dumbass decision when it happened.

RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Nov 29, 2007 11:53 AM CST up reply actions

Again, How So?

Simply because Prior's been injured doesn't prove he was overused. Where can you show us Prior was overused? I don't see it.

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Nov 29, 2007 12:04 PM CST up reply actions

You've already said you can't be convinced.......

so what's the point? Other's have offered enough evidence and you've scoffed at it.

Shit man, I dunno......putting your franchise pitcher back on the mound immediately after he falls on his pitching shoulder. I can see that being abuse. Definitely devoid of common sense at the very least.

RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Nov 29, 2007 12:17 PM CST up reply actions

Well...

what are statistics? Hindsight right?

No more statistics everyone!! No more statistics!

"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Nov 29, 2007 11:54 AM CST up reply actions

But...

Zambrano - No Surgery
Estes - No Surgery
Clement - 181 innings in 2004 and 191 innings in 2005

by rlpete on Nov 29, 2007 11:19 AM CST up reply actions

But...

Zambrano is the Incredible Hulk and he breaks bats over his legs. He's not natural, for which all Cub fans should thank God, at least every 5 days during the regular season.

Is Estes still pitching?

Did Bob Howry and Scott Eyre also struggle this year after Dusty Baker's overuse in meaningless situations?

Did Chad Fox's return from injury get annihilated after Dusty's insane back-to-back 20 pitch, then 25 pitch outings April 24 and 25th?

Do I really need to go on? Should we go look at what happened to the Florida pitchers in 2007 after people suggested Joe Girardi might be pushing them too hard in 2006?

by DGU on Nov 29, 2007 11:25 AM CST up reply actions

You Don't Need to Go On....

....because I can't be convinced he was abused.

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Nov 29, 2007 11:29 AM CST up reply actions

That sounds like a personal problem to me.

If you can't even CONSIDER the evidence?

Yeah. Really not our fault.

Google "pitcher abuse points" or something.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Nov 29, 2007 8:19 PM CST up reply actions

Estes

isn't pitching this year because he's not any good. He did pitch over 200 innings in 2005.

You are also changing the argument. I won't disagree that Baker didn't push these guys in 2003. It's just that a lot of people want to state as a fact that Baker destroyed Wood and Prior by that overwork.

by rlpete on Nov 29, 2007 11:32 AM CST up reply actions

All I'm trying to do

is illustrate the point that throwing when tired leads to injuries.

I don't think Wood was destroyed soley by Baker. Wood was overused before Baker.

Prior lands soley on Dusty Baker, or at least on Dusty and Darren if Dusty is still holding Darren in front of him as a shield.

I mean, yes, some pitchers can take more abuse than others, but I think when you look at the larger data pool, it is clear Carlos Zambrano and Livan Hernandez are the exceptions not the rule.

As for Estes - yes, the point is that he's not any good - that's why he was used less down the stretch in 2003 and why no one is tempted to leave him out there for 130 pitches in the hot summer sun.

by DGU on Nov 29, 2007 12:27 PM CST up reply actions

Prior has to share in some of the blame

his so-call "perfect mechanics" coming out of college are disputed by some. And while I can't back this up with quotes, there were efforts to change his delivery in college, for fear of injury. Since Prior had his own pitching coach, Tom House, suggestions were not welcomed.

by davidalanu on Nov 29, 2007 1:10 PM CST up reply actions

In addition to the point

discussed earlier in the week on another Prior post that it is unclear whether the workload, the line drive off the arm, the collision on the basepaths or a congential weakness that he always had is the cause(s) of his problems.

by rlpete on Nov 29, 2007 11:12 AM CST up reply actions

You need to look at pitch counts

It's a lot more work to pitch 10 innings if you throw 30 pitches per inning than if you throw 15 pitches per inning. It's Prior's pitch counts that are so frightening.

And it's particularly because the real problem is throwing when worn out. If your body can take throwing 100 pitches, it's not that big of a deal to throw 100 pitches 5 times in a row, but if your body is really working from pitches 105-125, that's when the real damage occurs.

Think of it like exercising. The real weight loss occurs when the heart rate is up and you're really pushing your body. Prior got pushed way too hard and often several times in a row.

by DGU on Nov 29, 2007 11:19 AM CST up reply actions

Then what.....

... are his pitch counts from 2003? And even still, my initial reaction will likely still be "so what?" to be honest with you. He's Exhibit One for today's coddled player.

Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Nov 29, 2007 11:31 AM CST up reply actions

What then?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=priorma01&t=p&year=2003

My suggestion to you if you really want to investigate this question is to compare how some of the other successful teams in the major leagues used their young pitchers, even as they were down the stretch in pennant battles.

Exhibit A would be the Red Sox who after Clay Buchholz threw a no hitter did not put him in their play-off rotation and didn't let him throw over 70 pitches again, so that he would not risk injury.
Exhibit B would be the Yankees and the Joba Rules.

Other teams get this. Thankfully Lou gets it. I'd say hopefully Dusty still doesn't get it, except that as much as I want to see the Cubs win, I don't want it to be at the expense of other players' bodies and careers.

Fwiw, we are in full agreement on one thing - Santo forever, indeed!

by DGU on Nov 29, 2007 12:37 PM CST up reply actions

Here is the problem with

the pitch count theory.

Let's assume that Prior's long list of problems were initiated by a supposed overuse in 03. If that is the case, why have most of his problems occured during spring training, after having 4 months to rest and prepare for the next season? If you recall, he didn't come out of spring training ready in 04, 05, 06 or 07. If his issues have been overuse, he should be at his strongest after a long rest and slowly fade away as he builds up innings during the season. With him, the pattern has been the exact opposite - never ready out of ST, but got better as 04, 05 and 06 went on. Usually, if you have been abused problems occur after a number of innings not after a long rest.

He has had achilles, elbow and most recently shoulder problems. That strikes me as someone who is simply fragile, or possibly is not doing the right things to prepare during the offseason.

No one knows the orignation or cause of his problems and it's pure speculation to pin it down on one cause. The only thing you can do is look at patterns, and a guy who has been overused usually does best after a period of downtime, not the opposite.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 29, 2007 12:55 PM CST up reply actions

Look, I'm not a doctor

...so I don't KNOW what's up with Prior. I just know that sources I trust to have medical knowledge looked at the damage in Prior's shoulder and said - that looks like it was caused not by a sudden injury, but by wear and tear over the long course of time.

This is a highly imperfect analogy, but I also know that cars which aren't taken care of and are abused over a long period of time sometimes manifest the problems they have developed after sitting cold for a time and then when you try and start them up the problem is apparent.

So, of course, it's possible that Prior's biology is partly to blame. But we KNOW Dusty's use was irresponsible. If it wasn't most teams wouldn't have instituted pitch counts. We KNOW Prior's dad thinks it was irresponsible. And so the original question is - does Prior have a good reason to be upset with the Cubs? I think he does.

Imagine you owned a classic FIAT convertible and went on vacation in Europe for 6 months. You told your son he could drive the car but should be careful. You get back and find the thing won't start. You question your son. He says, "It's a FIAT; they always break down." But you aren't satisfied. You look at the mileage on the car and see that 10,000 miles have been put on the car. You ask your son if he had regular maintenance done on the car and he says, "What maintenance?"

Do you blame your son for the car breaking down or not?

by DGU on Nov 29, 2007 1:41 PM CST up reply actions

Your entitled

to your individual perception of what may be the cause of Prior's long bout of injury problems. You may be right, I may be right or we both could be partially right.

I'm basing my opinions on experience in the sports medicine field and also having access to a number of docs, some of whom have treated professional baseball players. When you add it all up and try and connect the dots, there is something that just doesn't jive with Prior in regards to how a typicall period of abuse should effect a pitcher. It could be that he is just a unique case, and he responds differently than most, but the other issues around him lead me to believe there is more to this than simple overuse during one season and blaming it on Dusty.

Anyway, it makes for engaging discussion, but I do not subscribe to the abuse theory as many others do.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 29, 2007 2:06 PM CST up reply actions

Thanks

for giving some background on where you're coming from. I'm glad to have your opinion helping to balance others I have read and respected.

I don't know and I don't think we'll ever know for sure. For me, the main point is that Prior could reasonably blame the Cubs and not be a "bad apple" for doing so.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

by DGU on Nov 29, 2007 3:06 PM CST up reply actions

He's still Mark Prior

The Natural. The telling comment from Crasnicks article (that Snake referred to) was the NL exec said 29 when asked about the number of teams that would be in on Prior if the Cubs non-tendered him. So, you have to ask, if we aren't looking at this emotionally why wouldn't we want Prior on the team? Does the fact that he's a prima donna hurt him that much?

Emotions aside Prior needs to be given a contract and not non-tendered, preferably a two year contract with incentives. A trade would be okay if the return were worth it, which would be tough given Prior's physical condition, so a contract is probably the only option.

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Nov 29, 2007 10:20 AM CST reply actions

why wouldn't we want Prior

The reason we wouldn't want Prior on the team for only one year, absent an option for 2009, is because he isn't going to help the team.

In all likelihood he'll not pitch all year, or pitch inconsistently and well below his potential as he tries to make it back from 2 years of inactivity.

I haven't written off Mark Prior. But I have written off his 2008 season. And the Cubs should just move on if 2008 is all he's offering them.

by davearm on Nov 29, 2007 10:54 AM CST up reply actions

Couldn't have said it better

Agree 100%. As I said in another post on Prior, a lot of people are hoping he comes back and leads the Cubs to the World Series in 2008. It's not going to happen. He's not even going to start pitching until mid-season. He'll need to start in extended Spring Training, spend some time in the minors, take a week or two off as setbacks occur. If the Cubs are lucky he might make a few starts late in the year with strict pitch counts. He's not going to be effective in 2008. If they can't get a two year deal, let someone else pay for his rehab.

Yes, all 29 GM's will be coming to talk to him if the Cubs non-tender him. I bet all of them will have multi-year deals in hand too.

by rlpete on Nov 29, 2007 11:01 AM CST up reply actions

I'm not sure every team will.......

be offering a multi-year deal but I'd imagine NYY, BOS, LAA, LAD would be the ones that do.

RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Nov 29, 2007 11:15 AM CST up reply actions

I disagee

If there really are 29 teams there will be a LOT more. All the small market teams would offer multi-years. Teams like Pittsburgh, KC, etc. are not going to pay for his rehab and let him walk after 2008. They would be the ones more likely to offer multi-year with lots of incentives more than the big market teams you mention.

by rlpete on Nov 29, 2007 11:24 AM CST up reply actions

Personally,

I don't think the PIT's and KC's have a chance in hell in signing him. I don't Prior would even entertain the thought of going to those kind of teams. I think the sticking point is that he wants more guaranteed money anyway and I'm pretty sure the teams I mentioned would be willing to give it to him.

RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Nov 29, 2007 11:33 AM CST up reply actions

I won't disagree with that

He would likely end up at a team with a higher payroll. Look at what the Yankees did with Lieber. They basically paid for his rehab for a whole year.

My bottom-line point is if the Cubs can't get a 2 year deal from Prior, I see no point in wasting any time with him in 2008. Let someone else pay for the rehab.

by rlpete on Nov 29, 2007 11:36 AM CST up reply actions

True.....

but I honestly think Hendry just needs to get alot more creative with the deal he's offering. Team options just don't give players the kind of security they want, remember Moises?? He hit 40 HR in 2004 and his option was declined, so even with good performance it's not a guarantee the option will be picked up.

RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Nov 29, 2007 11:52 AM CST up reply actions

draft picks

im not sure how they dictate type-A, type-B etc. free agents. if prior was offered arbitration at the end of 2008 and declined, what kind of draft pick would we be looking at as compensation, or would there be none?

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Nov 29, 2007 11:20 AM CST reply actions

It would depend on...

... what his 2008 performance was. If he didn't pitch at all in 2008, combined with him not pitching in 2007, I doubt the Cubs would get any compensation at all.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 29, 2007 12:01 PM CST up reply actions