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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

Cubs contacted Tampa about Crawford...

Per ESPN1000 and a poster on northsidebaseball.

http://www.northsidebaseball.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45214

Tampa needs pitching, but I'm guessing that Hendry won't part with either Hill or Marmol.  The Cubs would have to eat a ton of Marquis' salary to get him there..   Marshall's expendable though and maybe they'd take Gallagher and/or Veal???  

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Not gonna happen but
in a heartbeat Pie and someone else (not Marmol or Hill) but anyone else for Crawford.
MMMMM...Fernandos fajitas and margaritas

by Kinky Reggae on Nov 5, 2007 12:19 PM CST reply actions  

I dunno
Crawford's starting to get expensive for Tampa...  I don't think they have a big need for Pie tho, since they have lots of outfield talent.  I wouldn't mind a 3-way deal where Pie's sent to a 3rd team that sends TB pitching..
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 12:29 PM CST up reply actions  

He is a good player
but keep one thing in mind, he is another guy who is not a high OBP type player.  I know it has creeped up of late, but it is still relatively low in regards to his BA.  This concerns me for one reason - his best place in the lineup would be in the 2 hole, and that would give you two guys at the top, without either one being a patient OBP type guy.  To me, this does not solve making the lineup one that is going to be more slump proof.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 5, 2007 12:29 PM CST reply actions  

"Slump proof?"
The Cubs took a bunch of walks against AZ and left those guys stranded...  

The Cubs need more power and I think Crawford can be a 20 home run guy...

SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't get caught up
assessing the Cubs offensive troubles over 3 games against Arizona.  You have to look at the entire season, and they just weren't versatile enouph to string together runs when their big guys struggled.

I'm no major stat head, but one thing that is crystal clear - the teams with the highest team OBP score the most runs over 162 games.  It's high time the Cubs caught on to this, instead of doing the same thing over and over again.

Power would be nice, but not at the expense of adding more OBP, especially with a leadoff man who strikes out 160 times and has a mediocre OBP.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 5, 2007 12:45 PM CST up reply actions  

High scoring teams like
Philly and Milwaukee hit for power too...  Going to be hard to win it all when you're 11th in home runs..  
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 12:55 PM CST up reply actions  

They had that in 04
and the offense folded like a tent down the stretch.

They need to become more versatile and not just rely on hitting the ball out of the yard.  Also, you already have 3 players who are legit 30+ homer guys, and that should be enouph power if you have the other ingrediants.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 5, 2007 1:11 PM CST up reply actions  

They won more games in 2004
than this year...  Crawford's a .350+ obp guy.  He's a major upgrade over what they had in CF last year.
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe and yes
He had a .350+ OBP the last two years based almost entirely on his batting average.  As a hitter, he's essentially Soriano minus the power and some of the Ks.  Unless he maintains a .310+ AVG or suddenly figures out plate discipline, he's not going to remain a .350+ OBP guy.

He WOULD be an upgrade over what we had last year offensively, but that certainly isn't saying much.  And it's not a question of simply upgrading over last year - it's a question of doing so without gutting the team to do it.

by SouthernCub on Nov 5, 2007 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

But...
... Crawford's not a center fielder. He's a left fielder.

And don't say, "Well, he could play CF because he's fast." Tampa Bay could have done that in 2005 when Rocco Baldelli went down. Nope, they played some mope named Damon Hollins in CF most of the year.

Incidentally, Jacque Jones, once installed in CF on June 30, hit .328/.370/.460. Note, I am NOT saying Jones is better than Crawford, because he isn't, but Jones did a credible job for half a season.

That said, the Cubs' CF next year will very likely be Felix Pie, unless he plays his way out of the job.  

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 5, 2007 1:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe they'll move Soriano to RF?
I've read a few times now that Pinella would really like to get Crawford..  
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't see that happening.
Soriano's staying in LF, as I said, I think Fukudome will be the Cubs' RF in 2008.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 5, 2007 1:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope so
n/t
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 5, 2007 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Hope so..
So maybe Crawford's Plan B..

Are the Giants interested in Fukudome?  I have a feeling they're going to spend like fiends this offseason..

SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 2:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Let me put it this way
I'm hearing out here that the Giants are kicking the tires on a Tim Lincecum for Carl Crawford deal.

So if you want Crawford, you'll probably have to at least approach the same value as Tim Lincecum.  So none of this "Jason Marquis plus minor league flotsam" stuff.  Forget Sean Marshall too.

Gallagher AND Veal would be in the ballpark, depending on how the Rays evaluate Gallagher and Veal.  (Not everyone likes them, you know.)  Hill and a lesser prospect could do it.

But Crawford is a left fielder.   Last I checked, we've got one of those signed for the next seven years.  I don't have any clue as to why we'd give up anything of value to acquire a left fielder.

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh Timmers on Nov 5, 2007 12:55 PM CST reply actions  

If Lincecum is available....
...I'd like to see the CUBS kicking some tires as well. That guy can pitch.
Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Nov 5, 2007 12:59 PM CST up reply actions  

He's available for a "stud" outfielder
Think Delmon Young or someone like that.

We don't really have anyone in our system that fits that bill.

by Wreckard on Nov 5, 2007 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

My only concern
is that SF is thinking about trading him is that they're worried about his durability.  The Cubs don't have a good record in that area.

I generally agree with you though.  Lincecum is an ace.

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh Timmers on Nov 5, 2007 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Crawford can play RF...
he did so in AAA at least.  I don't think he has a noodle arm.  Heck, he's got to have at least the same arm as Jones, right?

by SouthernCub on Nov 5, 2007 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

That said...
the "I heard on ESPN1000..." rumor is very frequently unsubstantiated.  Frequently posters either make this up or misinterpret what was actually said on the radio (e.g., turning "the Cubs should try to talk to Tampa Bay about Crawford," into "the Cubs have talked to Tampa Bay about Crawford").

by SouthernCub on Nov 5, 2007 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

He's play some CF...
I'll bet SF goes on a spending frenzy to address hitting needs.  Can't see Lincecum being dealt..
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

He has played some CF
Poorly, I might add.  He's not a center fielder, he's a left fielder.  
The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh Timmers on Nov 5, 2007 2:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Poorly?
Why was his zone rating in center .909 in 2005 and .950 in 2004 then?  
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 2:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Marquis and a minor leaguer
is flotsam if I heard it.  

by NO100 on Nov 5, 2007 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Why does everyone think that the D-Rays need SP?
Right now they have Kazmir and Shields.  That is a 1-2 punch as good as anyone else in the league.  After those two guys they have a string of young guys who have pitched well in the minors and could at least fill in at No. 4 or No. 5 in the major leagues:

A. Sonnanstine
J. Hammel
J. Howell
E. Jackson

Then in Triple-A you have a high prospect in Jeff Niemann and a surprise prospect in Jae Kuk Ryu.  

Even after those guys you have three guys with No. 1/No. 2 starter stuff.  Some scouts rank these three guys in the top ten of ALL prospects in the MlB:

Jacob McGee
Wade Davis
David Price

So that's a possible 2009 rotation of:

  1. Scott Kazmir
  2. James Shields
  3. Wade Davis
  4. Jacob McGee
  5. David Price
and then 6 other decent pitching prospects to fill the No. 4 or No. 5 spots if 2 of their big guns falter.

In a nutshell, they have multiple guys who are Sean Marshall and Sean Gallagher so none of our pitching prospects are enticing.  Also, Donald Veal is not an upcoming prospect anymore.  Take a look at his numbers.  At this point, I hope he can just be a decent LOOGY one of these days.

by IllinoisCubs on Nov 5, 2007 1:48 PM CST reply actions  

It wouldn't surprise me if Tampa Bay asked for
something like Gallagher and Soto if it was even discussed.  Soto probably draws more interest than players like Marshall and especially Veal.  

by rlpete on Nov 5, 2007 2:10 PM CST up reply actions  

They're not high on Dioner Navarro
any longer??
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Im surprised
No one mentioned the 50+ steals year in an year out Crawford brings.  That being said, I dont see it, they need a right fielder.  Why does it seem the Cubs like to stock pile 2nd baseman and left fielders.
Hey.....Cubs win!!! Steve Stone is the most overrated scumbag in the business.

by Hammer on Nov 5, 2007 2:35 PM CST reply actions  

The obp fanatics would poo poo that..
But yes, that's another reason to get him.  He generates runs.
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 2:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Crawford...
... scored 93 runs last year. Tenth place in the AL was Placido Polanco with 105, so Crawford wasn't even close to the league leaders.

Now, I know part of that is team-dependent. But I'm just not as excited about Crawford as you are, especially since he doesn't have a position with the Cubs because they already have someone (Soriano) who plays the only position he plays competently.

Further, Tampa Bay is notoriously difficult to deal with. They could probably have dealt Crawford on several occasions over the last two years, but didn't.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 5, 2007 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep, they are notorious...
I doubt buy that "he has no position with the Cubs."  His Zone rating tells me he played CF competently before.  
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 3:25 PM CST up reply actions  

AAACK!
Zone rating? What does that tell you? The man has played 756 games in LF and 53 in CF. If he could have played a competent CF, why didn't the Rays put him there in 2005 when Rocco Baldelli went down for the year???

Most likely, because he can't play center field on an everyday basis.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 5, 2007 3:42 PM CST up reply actions  

In 2005
weren't they really high on joey gaithwright??
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Gaithright played 70 games in CF in 2005...
They played Hollins for the first half and Gaithright in the second half.  Gaithright may be the fastest guy in baseball, so he absolutely makes more sense in CF.  Perhaps the reason they didn't move Crawford to CF at that point was because they knew they'd be going to Gaithright and didn't want to jerk Crawford around.

by SouthernCub on Nov 5, 2007 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

That's some faulty logic, Al...
You're going to base your rating of his defensive abilities on the decisions made by one of the worst-run organizations in baseball?  That's a MUCH more tenuous position than actually looking at performance on the field, in my opinion.

by SouthernCub on Nov 5, 2007 3:50 PM CST up reply actions  

No...
... I'm going to base my rating on the fact that in 2005, when the Rays CF went down with an injury and they COULD have played Carl Crawford in CF, they played him there for a total of 8 starts, giving the rest to Damon Hollins, Joey Gathright, Reggie Taylor, Alex Sanchez and Chris Singleton.

The manager of that team was Lou Piniella. I think he knows pretty well what Carl Crawford can and can't do, and he doesn't fill any real need that the Cubs have.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 5, 2007 4:18 PM CST up reply actions  

So why are the Cubs inquiring about Crawford?
Iirc Gaithwright was a big time prospect in 2005, and I'm sure they hoped Rocco would be back...  Perhaps they just wanted to keep Crawford in the set position?  I think it's pretty unfair to claim he's just a lf when he's been more than competent in center...
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

This whole diary...
... is based on the assumption that they did.

The NSBB link you posted quotes an ESPN 1000 report, with no other corroborating info. The source I have, who gave me the Fukudome/Kuroda info -- and some other stuff that I cannot pass along at this time but may be able to later -- said nothing about Crawford.

I'm not sure the Cubs HAVE inquired, that's my point, and I don't think they need to or should, either.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 5, 2007 4:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Al......?
"The source I have, who gave me the Fukudome/Kuroda info -- and some other stuff that I cannot pass along at this time but may be able to later -- said nothing about Crawford."

AL, what does this mean?  If you cant tell us anything about your source how do we assume any of it is true or if it is your opinion.  Who does this source work for?  Why would they be getting information?  Why would they be telling you thing that you can and CANNOT pass along to people at your site at any given time?

Im confused.  Are you a source to leak rumors?  Thats what I get when I hear that you "cannot pass along at this time"

Can you prove any validity to this?

Hey.....Cubs win!!! Steve Stone is the most overrated scumbag in the business.

by Hammer on Nov 6, 2007 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Sigh.
That's what sourcing is all about. Some things I can tell, some I can't. Now, if I went ahead and broke confidences, I think my sources would vanish.

And no, no one's leaking anything through me. I got told a few things and told that I could use the stuff I've posted. That's all it is. Nothing sinister at work here.

If I can pass along more stuff, I will.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Nov 6, 2007 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Fair enough
Hey.....Cubs win!!! Steve Stone is the most overrated scumbag in the business.

by Hammer on Nov 6, 2007 1:55 PM CST up reply actions  

This is the key question to debate...
Clearly, either the Cubs think Crawford can play CF or RF, or they think Soriano can move to CF or RF (less likely), or (perhaps most likely) the rumor posted on another board was false.

As I said in another post, these posts about "hearing on ESPN1000..." are a dime a dozen.  Quite often they are just completely fabricated, or the poster just misheard what was actually said (converting what some radio personality thinks the Cubs SHOULD do into what the Cubs have actually tried to do).

I don't think there's much legs to the idea of getting Crawford here, mainly because I think he'll command too much in return.  But either the Cubs think he has a position here or the rumor is false.

by SouthernCub on Nov 5, 2007 4:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Wouldn't be the first time someone misjudged...
I'd rather base my opinion on actual performance rather than someone else's preconceived notion of what his performance would be.  There are a number of reasons why Piniella might have chosen to go with Hollins, most notably that perhaps he didn't want to jerk a young Crawford around when he knew that Gaithright was on the way.  Or perhaps he was TOLD to go with Crawford in LF considering the organization KNEW that Gaithright was coming.

Regardless of why Crawford wasn't moved, the reason it's faulty logic is because Crawford's past performance suggests he can do it and his athleticism suggests he can do it.  Just because the organization (including Piniella - he's not infallible) might not have THOUGHT he could do it doesn't mean he couldn't do it.

And REGARDLESS, you continue to overlook the fact that he has played RF in the minors.  He could very well be envisioned as an option there as well (if Fukudome goes elsewhere).

Or, it could all be moot if the original rumor is false.

by SouthernCub on Nov 5, 2007 4:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Going to quickly wade in here...
...and then quickly wade out.

BIS's Zone Ratings for Crawford are available here. They're (in my opinion) more reliable than the STATS, Inc. ones, and at any rate, they're at least broken out much more clearly, so we can do better analysis of them.

Crawford's RZR in CF:

.877, 2004
1.000, 2005
.677, 2006

So, what do those numbers tell us?

Almost absolutely nothing. You can't aggregate Zone Rating between seasons, because Zone Rating isn't a rate stat, it's adjusted to league norms and thus isn't consistent year to year. And none of those years approach a sample size large enough for those Zone Ratings to tell us anything particularly meaningful. 65 balls in zone for '04, 17 in '05, 3 in '06. You need at least 100 balls in zone before you can be confident that your Zone Rating is much more than just noise.

And straight zone rating without at least mentioning the positional norms and the run value of an out at each position isn't exactly reliable anyways. You need to put the numbers in a context where they have meaning.

To be clear: I'm not convinced that Al's right here. Tango's work on the defensive spectrum tells me that a guy like Crawford could probably be an average-to-good defender in center, given his ZR in left field (an actual good sample size), unless there's a specific tool that Crawford is deficient in.

But he's not a baseball robot, either, and you'd have to see how a prospective move to center would affect him, and how capable he is of learning a new position in-season, before you could have any confidence in that.

I just don't want to see Zone Rating abused - it's the best readily-available defensive metric we have, and getting it to replace Fielding Percentage in the standard discussion of defense is as important as getting OBP into the idiom of the average baseball fan was.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Nov 5, 2007 7:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm with ya Al
I just can't stress enough, the importance of having a very patient discipline hitter following Soriano in the lineup.  If you are going down the road of having a guy who doesn't have a strong OBP at leadoff, you damn well better have it in the 2 hole.  Also, for Soriano to use his speed, you need a guy willing to take pitches and is not afraid of hitting with 2 strikes behind him.

Like I said before, I like Crawford, but sticking him in the 2 hole would be another case of square peg in a round hole the Cubs have had with their lineup for several years.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Nov 5, 2007 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually
he has enough power to bat 3rd..  Bat Sori 1, DeRo 2, Crawford 3, Dee 4, ARam 5...

I think his power number will go up as he hits his prime and batting in front of Lee and ARam should help him..

SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 3:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Odd lineup and I may say
it would never happen.  my opinion at least.  Also if I had those same tools, why would you bat Lee 4th and Aram 5th.  IMHO I believe Lee is bound for the 5 hole in the next year or two anyways.  I patient guy with dwindling power, heck let Lee bat 2nd.  Want to talk about a guy who takes a TON of pitches??? LEE is your guy
Hey.....Cubs win!!! Steve Stone is the most overrated scumbag in the business.

by Hammer on Nov 5, 2007 3:50 PM CST up reply actions  

They need a 5 hitter and DeRo's
high obp is best utilized as a 2 hitter..  Batting Crawford 3 breaks up the righties...
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Nov 5, 2007 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Doesn't have a position?
For one, he could play RF if the Cubs didn't get Fukudome.  For another, you've not convinced me that he can't play CF.  He's faster and has a stronger arm than Jones.  And in his brief time in CF (53 games) he had a better range factor than either Jones or Pie and a better zone rating than Jones (only slightly behind Pie).  You're going to be hard-pressed to prove that he can't play CF given that his defensive numbers are actually pretty good there.

I DO agree that he's probably not worth the cost it will take in terms of trade fodder.  But I don't think it's at all accurate to say that he wouldn't have a position on the Cubs.

by SouthernCub on Nov 5, 2007 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

no
Yay I want another defensive liability in the outfield. (sarcasm)
Larry Rothschild= Bad Pitching Coach

by number1cubfan on Nov 5, 2007 7:17 PM CST reply actions  

Like I said above
not going to happen but if it was on the table, I would gladly give up Pie and a pitcher (depending on who of course) for Crawford.  He is a star!  Soriano, Crawford, and ___ would be a very nice OF.  Potentially better than Alou, Lofton, Sosa IMHO.
MMMMM...Fernandos fajitas and margaritas

by Kinky Reggae on Nov 6, 2007 8:18 AM CST reply actions  

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