Poll Question: Do the Cubs Need a No. 2 starter?

Where's the option that says...

..."I'm more concerned about the sucking hole that is our offense at shortstop"?

I would suggest you learn to truly interrupt all stats before using any selective stats. -- cubswin

by cwyers on Dec 19, 2007 12:34 AM CST 0 recs

Agreed.

nt

by gjdow on Dec 19, 2007 2:44 AM CST up 0 recs

Yeah but there isn't much to do about it

Ramirez
Rollins
Renteria
Guillen
Jeter
Tulowitzki
Tejada
Wilson
Hardy
Young
Harris
Reyes
Peralta
Greene
Cabrera
Betancourt
Loretta
Bartlett
Furcal
Drew
Uribe
Theriot

That's your 2007 OPS list. There are guys below Theriot, but yeah Theriot was 22nd in the league. Most of those guys aren't available or the asking price is too much.

Jack Wilson is on the market, but the price is very high and even though the Pirates suck, I don't see them trading to a division rival.

Khalil Greene is said to be on the market, but I think Towers has a very high price on him, his OBP (even the road one) is worse than Theriot's and if came to the Cubs, his job would not be to hit HRs.

Orlando Cabrera might be available according to some rumors, but even if they are true, Williams traded Garland to get him. Could you imagine his asking price just to save face?

Mark Loretta might be an option now that the Astros have Tejada. I actually think Loretta could provide a nice presence on the team and his OBP is good, but again it's a division rival. The Astros think they want to switch around Wigginton/Tejada/Loretta between 3B and SS to keep them fresh and provide the best defensive unit possible. I'd inquire about his price. Given the lack of prospects in the organization, perhaps Loretta could be had for one of our many bullpen Triple-A guys.

After Loretta, you would have to get creative and go with unproven guys. Theriot plays an average game though. It's not like he's dead last in anything. 'Black hole' is a little much.

by IllinoisCubs on Dec 19, 2007 7:15 AM CST up 0 recs

DeRosa?

I wonder if he'd be adequate at SS for 140 games . . . probably not, and I know it's been brought up, but if the Cubs get Roberts, I'd like to see them try it.

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2007 7:28 AM CST up 0 recs

Creative is good

I think the Cubs should find someone who can be an added option and let Theriot, Cedeno, and that added option fight it out and see who rises to the top. An ideal added option would be someone who either hits left-handed or has plus defense. Ben Zobrist could probably be had cheap and if he flops, what, you're out hardly anything. I've done my piece on getting Wilson Betemit enough times, that I'm sure there's no reason to do it again, but with A-Rod nailed down and Cano not going anywhere, the Cubs could probably get him cheap, too.

Here's creative - the Mariners want pitching - offer them Sean Marshall, Matt Murton, and Tyler Colvin for Adam Jones; tell Jones to break his SS glove back out and if he flops there, well, we can figure something out in the OF.

Here's creative, too (two) - now that the Twins have Adam Everett - see if we can get in on the Johan talks to make it a three-way and snag Jed Lowrie for ourselves. The last time we did a three-way with the Twins and Red Sox, it worked out fairly well.

The Dodgers Hu is another option. There are options.

All I am saying is give Pie a chance!

by DGU on Dec 19, 2007 10:04 AM CST up 0 recs

Creative IS good

I agree that I think there are options to be explored. Especially the low-risk ones.

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2007 10:34 AM CST up 0 recs

But my grammar is bad

Wow.

Anyway, yes, I think you bring up options that are worth kicking the tires on.

I like Theriot, but I'm not convinced that they can't - or shouldn't - upgrade/

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2007 10:36 AM CST up 0 recs

re: Rumors Regarding Orlando Cabrera

Here's the verbiage regarding the rumor of the south side team flipping Cabrera:

"Been getting this Phil Rogers blog post emailed to me quite a bit lately. In it he speculates that the White Sox could send Orlando Cabrera to the Red Sox for Julio Lugo and Coco Crisp. Or, they could send Cabrera to the Cubs for prospects. Third, he suggests the Sox could sign Cabrera for around four years and $50MM, the offer they made to Kosuke Fukudome."

Link to Phil Rogers' blog here.

This is who I think the Cubs #1 should be...

by initram on Dec 19, 2007 12:57 PM CST up 0 recs

Sucking Hole???

It seems I'm one of the few that thinks the Riot is fine for us at SS. Despite his struggles over the last 6 weeks.........I don't think we win the Central without him.Does'nt anyone think that he can get better? I think sometimes we get too caught up in raw numbers and forget that having a guy like him that busts his rear on EVERY play is important to a teams sucess.

Let's hope Jimbo grabs a solid starter somehow without giving up Hill and maybe Roberts for another LH bat and we become runaway favorites in the Central.
Happy Holidays All!!!

by plenz on Dec 19, 2007 9:23 AM CST up 0 recs

I'm with you

I think Theriot is fine at SS. I don't understand the hard-on for an offensive threat at SS. We have plenty of bats to pick up Theriot's not-so-great offensive production. Plus, he gets on base. Isn't that what everyone has been begging for?

by McRipper on Dec 19, 2007 9:41 AM CST up 0 recs

Yup

He gets on base at critical times.How many rallies did he play an intregal part in? I would hope that at a minimum he can put up similar stats to David Eckstein (maybe even better) and last I checked Eck has 2 rings! Plus...Theriot has a much better SS arm...........

by plenz on Dec 19, 2007 9:59 AM CST up 0 recs

If only there were more "critical times"

then his OBP wouldn't be .326.

Seriously though, Theriot deserves a shot, but he doesn't deserve a shot without other options also getting a shot. I think Theriot will turn out to be a good weak-side platoon player.

All I am saying is give Pie a chance!

by DGU on Dec 19, 2007 10:06 AM CST up 0 recs

All Star Team

I think everyone is getting caught up in the trade rumors, and the free agents and it's like fans want the Cubs to put together an all star team at every position. IMHO, Theriot should be leading off because he does what you want out of your lead-off hitter, he gets on base. He doesn't strike out. He doesn't swing for the fences. He's a good ball player. Assuming we don't get Roberts:

Theriot SS
Kosuke RF
Lee 1B
Ramirez 3B
Soriano LF
DeRosa 2B
Soto C
Pie CF

I'd be happy with that.

by McRipper on Dec 19, 2007 10:12 AM CST up 0 recs

Right

guys wouldn't have Theriot, Marquis, or Pie on their fantasy team right now so they think we should trade them. They don't think about the fact that you usually play in a 12-man league and there are intangibles in real baseball.

by IllinoisCubs on Dec 19, 2007 10:16 AM CST up 0 recs

Actually

Theriot and Pie will be targets for my fantasy teams because OBP doesn't matter there and steals do.

All I am saying is give Pie a chance!

by DGU on Dec 19, 2007 10:19 AM CST up 0 recs

Pie?

Let me ask all the Pie backers this..........
If he hits .266 with a OBP of .326 will he get the same treatment Theriot seems to get here or will he be looked upon as a sucess? IMHO....right now one of our bigger worries is CF

.271 OBP ain't gonna work! I'll agree that if he is still here he deserves a chance.......but there's a huge need for a reliable backup plan there...

by plenz on Dec 19, 2007 10:22 AM CST up 0 recs

I don't know the answer to your question

but I will say this; if he does not make significant strides at the plate in 08, his trade value will drop significantly. This is why they should not discount using him to improve the club now, if that opportunity presents itself.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Dec 19, 2007 10:28 AM CST up 0 recs

Keep in mind...

... that Pie put up those numbers at age 22, in limited playing time and with hardly any consistent time in the starting lineup.

He has mashed AAA pitching for a year and a half. Does he have to work more on plate discipline? Yes, he does. But he is ready to be given the CF job and see what happens for at least half a season, IMO. Remember that a kid named Sandberg started his Cub career, at a similar age, going 1-for-32.

With improved offense in RF and at C (don't forget Soto!), I think we can live with Theriot and Pie.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2007 10:28 AM CST up 0 recs

Agreed......But...................

I for one am a little worried about a lineup that has Theriot,Soto and Pie in it. Theriot is the only one here with a reasonable amount of ABs.Given the Cubs track record of developing position players it concerns me to have 3 players from our system being counted on to produce. I love what I have seen from Soto so far but it's an awfully small sample to just assume that he is a top level starting catcher.I really hope I am wrong but think the odds of all 3 being productive are astronomical.

by plenz on Dec 19, 2007 10:37 AM CST up 0 recs

Of Astronomy and Replacement Levels

"The odds of all [Theriot, Soto, and Pie] being productive are astronomical."

I disagree. Now part of that depends on what you call productive for Theriot. I expect him to be at about replacement level, maybe a little better, but when the Jays are paying John McDonald, Theriot for cheap isn't bad. I'd rather have another option there to see if we can make SS a little more productive, but there are worse things than Ryan Theriot.

The odds of Soto and Pie being productive are not only not astronomical, they're pretty good. Relative to what he will be paid, I would much rather have Pie than most of the CF options on the free agent market. The odds of them being better than Pie in 2-3 years are not good. I might even call the odds that Hunter and Rowand will be better than Pie at the end of their contracts astronomical.

Remember that minor league success is predictive of major league success. Every once in a while there are guys that turn out to be Quad-A guys who get it in the minors but can't translate to the majors. Pie doesn't fit that profile. And Soto has had success at the ML level, albeit in limited ABs. But he looked really good at the plate last year in tough situations.

I am absolutely confident that the odds of Soto being good are higher than the odds of any other C that is available. I mean if we could trade for Joe Mauer or Victor Martinez, that's one thing, but we're not going to do that. Bill James has Soto at #7 among all catchers in runs created for his 2008 projections. Of course, there's a chance he flops. But there's a chance Jason Kendall never plays a useful game again. There's a chance Joe Mauer's legs give out on the second out of the 2008 season. There's risk with all players. Soto's got a lot less risk than many other options. Plus he has a lot more upside than 90% of the other options.

Pie, of course, is controversial. To answer the question: "If he hits .266 with a OBP of .326 will he get the same treatment Theriot?" I'd have to ask what his SLG will be. Pie could very easily hit .266/.326/ for AVG/OBP, but I'd bet his SLG would be .100 pts higher than Theriot's and that makes a lot of difference. I'd be happy with a .266/.326/.466 first full season, and I don't think that's out of the question.

Again, the question is what are the odds that Pie is a better option than what else is out there? Given that we want a lefty bat in CeF, we have a limited pool. Maybe we could acquire the following lefty CF:
Nick Swisher
Josh Hamilton
Kenny Lofton
Nate McLouth
Johnny Damon
Juan Pierre
Gary Matthews Jr
David DeJesus
Coco Crisp

Of that list, only the first two could conceivably have a higher ceiling than Pie and neither will be cheap. The first has defensive limitations in CF and the second belongs to a division rival. I'd personally rule out Pierre and Matthews. The others might be safer in '08, but head-to-head, I think I'd rather have Pie in each case.

So, really, what we are asking, I think, is - do you want to pay the pitching price to Cinci to get Josh Hamilton, who may or may not be healthy enough to play a full season? I know some people have argued for Lofton, but come on, the odds for which will be better of Lofton head-to-head with Pie are not going to go in the direction of the 41 year old.

All I am saying is give Pie a chance!

by DGU on Dec 19, 2007 11:33 AM CST up 0 recs

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........

What???????????????

by plenz on Dec 19, 2007 1:08 PM CST up 0 recs

just kidding man...........

All I am saying is I am just not buying Pie from what I have seen. Absolutely..........give him a chance but we really need a backup plan because I guess I just have'nt seen alot that impresses me

by plenz on Dec 19, 2007 1:09 PM CST up 0 recs

Forgive the long post;

no time to write a short one...

I think the backup is Fukudome. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Cubs pick up a speedy right-handed split OF like Nook Logan or the Sox Brian Anderson as a backup/platoon guy.

The short answer of what I was trying to say above is that of the lefty options out there, Pie would be in the top 3 for me in terms of how likely they are to succeed at a high level.

All I am saying is give Pie a chance!

by DGU on Dec 19, 2007 1:15 PM CST up 0 recs

Interesting Pie stats

Forgive me as I am not computer savvy enough to know how to post a link but here are his numbers in DR so far
www.boardreader.com/tp/felix+pie.html
.239 so far

AS I said...........a bit worrisome!

by plenz on Dec 19, 2007 1:28 PM CST up 0 recs

Sure, they're reason to be worried

if you want to worry, but his .362/.410/.563 line in AAA at age 22 is even more reason not to worry.

At age 22, Curtis Granderson put up .286/.352/.458 in high A.

At age 22, Jim Edmonds put up .299/.346/.490 in AAA.

At age 22, Brian Giles put up .327/.407/.452 in AA.

At age 22, Torii Hunter put up .337/.344/.543 in AAA.

At age 22, Vernon Wells put up .281/.328/.453 in AAA.

At age 22, Alfonso Soriano put up .290/.326/.464 in AAA.

So, don't worry.

All I am saying is give Pie a chance!

by DGU on Dec 19, 2007 2:35 PM CST up 0 recs

not as worrisome

when you consider he did the same exact thing last year, only to absolutely shred apart iowa as a 22-year-old.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 19, 2007 3:25 PM CST up 0 recs

center field

is not a big offensive position. you could probably say somewhat of the same of ss, but i think cf generally is not counted on for offense as much as the short stop. that said, pie will be one of the best center fielders in the nl next year. theriots a solid defender but he doesnt have any gold gloves in his future. if pie puts up a theriot-like line, then i would not complain at all.

center field is not a worry. adding fukudome's bat to go along with soriano, dlee, aramis, and hopefully soto will let us hide pie at the bottom of the order and not worry about his offense.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 19, 2007 10:28 AM CST up 0 recs

Agreed

Pie needs a Jerome Walton type season. He needs to hit the ball for hits, not homers. He's got all that speed. Who does he think he is, Willie Mays Hayes? He needs to get on base. Period. Defense isn't a concern, but he needs to stop swinging at shit because right now, he's just an easy out and pitchers know that.

by McRipper on Dec 19, 2007 10:29 AM CST up 0 recs

Another thing

Aside from the hitting, Pie has a talent that never goes into a slump.

Pie's defense is tops - and I mean tippety-tops. Theriot's is... well, not tops.

And the Cubs have a backup plan, his name is Kosuke Fukudome.

All I am saying is give Pie a chance!

by DGU on Dec 19, 2007 11:43 AM CST up 0 recs

I would love to add another

middle infielder who can hit, has good OBP and can run. With that said, I do think adding another (quality) starter would do more to help this team win than the above.

I certainly could be all wrong, but thats what I think. In a perfect world, it would be nice to have both.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Dec 19, 2007 10:19 AM CST up 0 recs

I am not as concerned about

our pitching rotation as most. We know we can rely on Z to be his erratic yet awesome self. I think Lilly showed a lot of self control and ball control and really helped clean up after Z had a bad outing. I like him 2nd in the rotation. I am more concerned about the 3 4 and 5. Keep Rich Hill in there no matter what, maybe in the 4 spot? I have a good feeling about him. Marquis did a good job last year, but nothing really stellar other than beat up on the Cards (which gave me great pleasure). I like Marshall, but he really didn't have it going for him last year.

I guess Marquis and Marshall are the only ones I would consider giving up to try someone different. It may be that both of them would play better knowing the Cubs intend to keep them and show them they have faith in them to get the job done. Even if nothing changes, I think we have a really good rotation.

Anxiously awaiting the arrival of Opening Day '08

by love the ivy on Dec 19, 2007 4:22 AM CST 0 recs

Lilly's self-control

Yes, he didn't throw his glove AT anyone.

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2007 7:03 AM CST up 0 recs

You know...

... that didn't bother me as much as I know it bothered others. Lilly gave up a HR in a playoff game. He was clearly pissed at himself for throwing that pitch, and he showed it. What, exactly, is wrong with this? As noted, he didn't attack anyone, throw anything at anyone, etc.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 19, 2007 8:22 AM CST up 0 recs

It didn't bother me that much, either, but

I couldn't help myself when self control was referenced . . . guess I have none, either.

As I noted below, I do like Lilly. I just think that people are expecting too much based on a very good season that he had last year.

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2007 8:28 AM CST up 0 recs

In Retrospect...

... that pitch likely ended the Cubs chances at advancing.

And Lilly likely knew it.

After being ahead in the count 1-2, he ran the count full. One more good pitch and he's out of the inning with the Cubs up 2-0.

That one pitch..... 3-2 D-backs.

The Cubs did not have a lead before that inning. And that was the last time they had a lead in the series.

I'd be pretty ticked, too.

This is who I think the Cubs #1 should be...

by initram on Dec 19, 2007 12:14 PM CST up 0 recs

What really does bug me

and again, I like Hill,

Is the fact that Soto tried 3 times to get Lilly to throw low and away and he wouldn't do it. A walk to get to Drew would have been ok (yes, I know he got a hit, but Lilly wasn't in the same frame of mind).

What really finished the Cubs was the 3-1 pitch that DeRosa swung at (I like DeRosa, too) in game 3 for an inning-ending double play.

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2007 1:22 PM CST up 0 recs

Whoops!

Should have said I like Lilly. I like Hill as well, but that wasn't the point.

And, back to the original intent of the diary, I'd like to see an upgrade in the rotation -- that doesn't mean that I don't think Lilly, Hill, etc. are bad pitchers or can't get better. I just don't see this as a staff built to win a championship.

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2007 1:23 PM CST up 0 recs

I'm scared about the rotation

There's never enough starting pitching (which is why I could not believe Kenny doing what he did with Garland).

Its unlikely Jim will be able to peddle Marquis and I hope Dempster isn't in the rotation.

Cubs have only 3 dependable (season-long) starters. Can Marshall hold up or is he going to wilt under the pressure to hit 200+ IP. IMHO they need at least one more starter.

As for SS, can DeRo be reliable there if the Cubs get Roberts? Or, will TheRiot be able to handle a full season?

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 19, 2007 6:02 AM CST 0 recs

You know

They did have the best road ERA in the NL last year. Are we all thinking that was a fluke?

by Kornchex on Dec 19, 2007 9:57 AM CST up 0 recs

Not a fluke as much...

...as IMHO it won't be enough to win it all.

You never enough starting pitching.

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 19, 2007 10:34 AM CST up 0 recs

There's no one answer to your question

Do the Cubs need a second starter? Well no, Rich Hill and Ted Lilly are second starters. Even if Hill and Lilly's ERAs went up by a FULL run, they would still be on the border of No. 2/No. 3 starter status by being around the 60th best SP ERA in baseball. By default with their being 30 teams, the 60th best starter ERA is on the bottom end of being a 2nd starter. Will Lilly get worse? It's possible, but it's not like his numbers were awesome at first and then declined. Even with a 4.00 ERA, he's second starter material. Add into the fact that Hill is second starter material and Marquis is 3rd starter material and the Cubs are lined up pretty well.

Someone said it best earlier though, you can never have enough starting pitching. Hendry should kick the tires on everyone and do his job. If every guy out there is going to cost Felix Pie and then some, hang up the phone. We need a starting CF and while Pie hasn't cut it just yet, MLB history is full of guys who struggled their first 200 at-bats before taking off. If Hendry somehow gets a drunk Billy Beane on the phone who wants Blanton for Murton straight up or McFail feels like he owes the Cubs something so he wants to trade Bedard for Gallagher, Patterson, and Cedeno, then hell yes, take the deal. It's more about getting the best offer especially since we aren't in an urgent situation.

You guys really need to stop dumping on Jason Marquis. First of all, he's not a mess. He didn't over exceed this year. His career ERA is 4.56 and last year he pitched 4.60. He pitched as well as Jeff Suppan, the Brewers No. 2/No.3 starter depending on Ben Sheets health status. On any other team in the Central, Marquis would pitch in the 2 or 3 spot, but he pitches in the No. 4 spot for us. Marquis will run hot and cold which is why you don't trust him in the playoffs, but he is one of the best 4th starters in the game.

I think most of the guys here put too much emphasis on how players relate to their fantasy league. They see Jason Marquis sit on the waiver wire and think he's of no use to the team. You see Dan Haren have a rank in the top ten in the first half and you think he's an ace all of the sudden. In reality, Marquis pitched better in the first half of the season than Haren pitched in the second half. I don't want Marquis over Haren, but I'm just showing how easy it is for guys to get over hyped and others under valued.

by IllinoisCubs on Dec 19, 2007 6:54 AM CST 0 recs

A flaw in the logic

That assumes that the starters are evenly distributed throughout the league . . . they aren't and never will be.

I like Lilly. Re: your fantasy league reference, I traded for him earlier this month in my Strat-O-Matic league and gave up a lot for him -- so I hope he does keep it up. His 2007 stats are actually more like a #1. History, however, indicates that he's more likely a very solid #3 or 4 type starter.

I was at at LEAST 3 games this year where Marquis couldn't hold a 4 run lead -- for an inning. You're right, his stats are pedestrian, not a disaster -- but his head is a disaster. He wouldn't be the Reds #2 unless you go on 2007 alone. If you go on track records, he's behind Harrang and Arroyo.

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 19, 2007 7:11 AM CST up 0 recs

rich hill

is a number two starter, i think ted lilly is a borderline 2/3. it all depends on zambrano imo. if big z is an ace again, we're set. if z wants to pull this inconsistency act again and be a borderline 2/3 himself then we need another pitcher. so it all comes down to what does it cost to add another starter? you're not going to want to spend a lot when the rotation could be just dandy. unless you are getting an ace (bedard) id say dont spend any prospects on another starter. ace or bust, and you've got to hold onto pie, soto and hill. everyone else up for grabs if you can land a #1.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 19, 2007 7:15 AM CST 0 recs

"Rich Hill is a number 2 starter"

How can you count on this?? Hill has shown flashes of brilliance and yet even more flashes of mediocrity. Hill MAY someday be a great/dominant pitcher who could fill the "one or two hole", but to count on him to do so over the next one, or even two years, would be a risk I'm not willing to take. Hill is a good compliment to this staff, but has not shown us he will be the solid-dependable one or two starter.

The answer the the posters question, in my opinion, is "yes" we DO need a formidable #2 guy if we want to contend with what we have locked up for the next 3-4 yrs

by LuisSalazar on Dec 19, 2007 9:35 AM CST up 0 recs

well

In his first full season he was 5th in the NL in strikeouts and had a 1.19 WHIP, as well as a sub-4 ERA. If those aren't the numbers of a #2 starter, then what are?

I would think most expect that after your first year in the majors players tend to get better. Hill is also entering the age in which pitchers have their peak years. Rich Hill is currently the Cubs best pitcher.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 19, 2007 9:54 AM CST up 0 recs

I agree, a little

I think Hill is going to be a great pitcher. He needs a 3rd pitch though. He's not the Cubs best pitcher, that's Zambrano. I know he's wildly inconsistent sometimes but he's just as filthy other times. I think we need to get a #1 to take the pressure off Zambrano. He gets rocked in the early weeks and months and is lights out in June and July. If we can get a #1 or a similar #2, then Zambrano would probably be better. Thoughts?

by McRipper on Dec 19, 2007 10:21 AM CST up 0 recs

Food for thought

Zambrano was a better more consistent pitcher when he was in the shadow of Prior and Wood. In fact, during stretches in 03, 04 and 05 he was the best pitcher on the club. Since that time, he has had fewer dominant starts and has walked a lot more guys per inning.

This is really a key year for him to see if he responds to being a number 1.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Dec 19, 2007 10:25 AM CST up 0 recs

zambrano should and could

be our best pitcher, but we really have no way of knowing what he'll do. rich hill strikes out more, and walks less. thats why i would say he's our best pitcher right now.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 19, 2007 10:45 AM CST up 0 recs

IF Hill is truly our best pitcher,

(which I really don't think he is), then we might as well be planning for 2009, because this team will not compete for a championship being satisfied with Hill-Zambrano being our 1-2 guys (in any order)

by LuisSalazar on Dec 19, 2007 11:56 AM CST up 0 recs

Partially agree

The won't compete enough part is totally true, however the middle/back of the rotation will be the downfall.

I mentioned before and still hold the stance that if Dempster is p/o the rotation, it could spell trouble. If he and Marquis are there, then the Cubs will not win the WS.

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 19, 2007 12:21 PM CST up 0 recs

um ok...

how can you say he is not our best pitcher, and then not even say who IS our best pitcher. if hill is not, then please provide your opinion of who is and back it up.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 19, 2007 1:09 PM CST up 0 recs

WHO is our best pitcher is not relevant

whether it is Zambrano/Hill/Lilly

The point is, if we are relying on Hill/Z/Lilly (in any order) to be the dominant 3-some, then this club is in trouble.

I will not argue stats regarding Z and Hill...heck for that matter, you can make an argument for Lilly being our best starter (based on ONE year). Zambrano, by his history, is the ace of this staff as it stands. He may be a true #2 starter in reality, but regardless, we are in need of another legitmate 1 or 2 guy in addition. counting on Lilly and or Hill to be that guy is not going to cut it in my opinion.

by LuisSalazar on Dec 19, 2007 1:47 PM CST up 0 recs

if you think

we cant compete for a championship, then please name me 4 NL teams with a better 1-2-3 starting rotation, hell, name me two teams with a better 1-2-3.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 19, 2007 3:27 PM CST up 0 recs

I'm as big of a Cubs fan and am as optimistic

as anyone, but I'm trying to be realistic about this as well....When I say 'compete', I speak of competing for a championship...not a NL central crown or wild card

I'm assuming you're itching to defend the Cubs staff as is against some proposed other NL staffs, soooo Just to name a few rotations in the NL that would 'compete' better than the Cubs:
Arizona: Webb, Haren, Johnson/Owings
SD: Peavy, Young, Maddux
Cincy :Harang/Bailey/Arroyo
Atlanta: Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine
to name a few....even Pittsburgh and SF could be considered more formidable.

Now, if we talk AL, we may as well quit.

The Cubs will compete in the NL as is. I don't want to count on them 'competing' come playoff with Z/Hill/Lilly as 1-3.

As I've said before, I'm fine with Z as 1 or 2, Lilly as 3, but would not go into the season depending on Hill to step it up and act like a 1 or 2 stud......that, I believe, could very well spell major disappointment

by LuisSalazar on Dec 19, 2007 6:20 PM CST up 0 recs

Very well stated

And to summarize that list...

You can never too much starting pitching!

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 20, 2007 5:53 AM CST up 0 recs

i guess hill is just where we disagree

i think he pitched like a #2 last year and should be better this year.

ill give you arizona, obviously, but...

cincy: you cant all of a sudden count on bailey and say that 1-2-3 is as good as ours

sd: peavy, young, definitely better 1-2 than us, and ill give the whole 1-2-3 as better than us.

atlanta: hudson is no longer a dominant pitcher, our staff is better than that.

i would say we have the third best 1-2-3 in the NL. i am all for improving the pitching staff, but only if it is an ace we're getting in return. i dont think its worth it to trade away prospects for a player who is only marginally better than what we have right now. like ive said, trade the house for bedard. other than that i dont see any other option i like, and think the cubs will be just fine with the staff they have.

again, it seems this season could rest on whether big Z wants to step it up, and if hill can continue to mature.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 20, 2007 7:43 AM CST up 0 recs

Hill

Yes, he did pitch like a #2 last year. 1 year is a pretty small sample size, though. It took him until 27 to do so. That doesn't mean that he can't repeat or get better, I just think that the Cubs are 1 arm short.

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 20, 2007 9:13 AM CST up 0 recs

the mets, phillies, rockies, brewers, dodgers

all have worse 1-2 combos, why wouldnt we compete for the NL championship?

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 19, 2007 1:10 PM CST up 0 recs

If all series were best of 3

then the best 1-2 could do it. Simply put the Cubs need the best 1-2-3 and a good #4 to advance in the post season. As constructed, they may be good enough to make the playoffs but they need to take the next step.

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 19, 2007 1:22 PM CST up 0 recs

i think we're getting carried away

because of the playoff sweep. our pitchers didnt pitch well enough, and that sucks, but right now IF zambrano is zambrano then we have a fine 1-2-3. ted lilly would be one of the best #3's in the NL.

Kevin Hart Watch: IP: 11 K: 13 ERA: 0.82 WHIP: 1.00 K/BB: 3.25 a productive farm system is a wonderful thing.

by kylejo on Dec 19, 2007 1:41 PM CST up 0 recs

Guess we agree to disagree

and that's OK. I still hope the rotation gets fortified.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hoping for the current top-3 to underachieve; I want them to do well, I just want more.

This is a sore spot for many - myself included - but look what happened in '05. That starting staff probably would have beat any team in the post season. That's the performance level I would like to see at the corner of Clark and Addison.

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 19, 2007 2:13 PM CST up 0 recs