Hall of Fame Ballot

by slink on Dec 27, 2007 9:21 AM CST

This years hall of fame eligible list has been released.

I saw this in the main thread and thought it would be a good distraction for the day. We will have a bcb HOF selection.

Two rules here:

-Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.

-Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the BCB Hall of Fame.

Hope this will work in the poll...

The Ballot
Brady Anderson (first year on ballot)
Harold Baines (5.3 percent in 2007)
Rod Beck (first year on ballot)
Bert Blyleven (47.7 percent in 2007)
Dave Concepcion (13.6 percent in 2007)
Andre Dawson (56.7 percent in 2007)
Shawon Dunston (first year on ballot)
Chuck Finley (first year on ballot)
Travis Fryman (first year on ballot)
Goose Gossage (71.2 percent in 2007)
Tommy John (22.9 percent in 2007)
David Justice (first year on ballot)
Chuck Knoblauch (first year on ballot)
Don Mattingly (9.9 percent in 2007)
Mark McGwire (23.5percent in 2007)
Jack Morris (37.1 percent in 2007)
Dale Murphy (9.2 percent in 2007)
Robb Nen (first year on ballot)
Dave Parker (11.4 percent in 2007)
Tim Raines (first year on ballot)
Jim Rice (63.5 percent in 2007)
Jose Rijo (first year on ballot)
Lee Smith (39.8 percent in 2007)
Todd Stottlemyre (first year on ballot)
Alan Trammell (13.4 percent in 2007)

Update [2007-12-27 10:30:36 by slink]: New Rules. A flaw in the polling system has led to a change in direction. One vote per person, aside from Dawson, who would you elect?

Poll

5 votes

70 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Comments

Unfortunately...

... the polling system on this site has a bug -- I don't think it will allow you to vote for more than one. What I think you should do is take Dawson out -- because most people here, I think, will vote for him -- and see who the top choice of BCB people would be OTHER than Dawson.

JFTR, my ballot for this year would be:

Dawson
Blyleven
Smith
John
Gossage

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Dec 27, 2007 9:05 AM CST reply actions

Just noticed that...

...bummer

by slink on Dec 27, 2007 9:06 AM CST up reply actions

Al

I'm with you on Dawson, Blyleven and Gossage.

Smith is a question mark in my book. He stuck around a long time and was able to pile up stats by doing so, but I don't remember him being consistently dominant the way Gossage was. I never felt too comfortable with him on the mound closing games -instead I felt the same sort of discomfort with Smith that I feel now with Ryan Dempster (although of course Smith was a far better pitcher than Dempster over all). I remember lots of games that Smith blew over the years.

I'm on the fence about John. He stuck around a long, long time and had some very good years (20-7, 2.78 in 1977 and 21-9, 2.96 in 1979). He also won nearly 300 games. However, he had a lot of very mediocre years as well, and he was never the kind of pitcher who really dominated his league enough to make anyone think he was one of the top-five pitchers in baseball.

I suppose the same could be said for Blyleven, whom I support for the HOF. But Blyleven's 60 shutouts and his 3,700 strikeouts carry a lot of weight. Also, unlike John, Blyleven didn't have the advantage of pitching for winners like the Dodgers and Yankees throughout his career, and that hurt his won-loss totals. Blyleven's ability to go 19-7 for a 1984 Indians team that won just 76 games, and to go 17-14 for a 1986 Twins team that won just 71 games, speaks a lot for his abilities.

"Have Keith Moreland drop a routine fly. Give everybody two bags of peanuts and a frosty malt, And I'll be ready to die." -Steve Goodman

by danimal15 on Dec 27, 2007 4:00 PM CST up reply actions

I vote for Tommy John...

... because part of being part of a Hall of Fame, as Bill James has written, is that you should be "famous".

Tommy John has a baseball career-saving surgery named after him, a surgery that gave him an extra 15 baseball years, including three 20-win seasons. He finished in the top 10 of Cy Young voting four times, was a four-time All-Star, won 288 games, played in five postseasons and two World Series, and is 26th on the all-time shutout list with 46.

Every single pitcher who has as many or more shutouts as John is in, except for Luis Tiant, Roger Clemens... and Blyleven, who should be in.

That's good enough for me.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Dec 27, 2007 6:27 PM CST up reply actions

OK

You've convinced me!

"Have Keith Moreland drop a routine fly. Give everybody two bags of peanuts and a frosty malt, And I'll be ready to die." -Steve Goodman

by danimal15 on Dec 27, 2007 8:39 PM CST up reply actions

My vote

Players like John, Gossage, Concepcion, and Parker stick in my memories as faded stars who held on a little to long. That may not be a fair or complete picture of thier careers, but when I started watching baseball in the mid 80's, these stars were past their prime - so fair or not, that's the initial impression I associate with thier names.

Guys like Trammel, Raines, Baines, Mattingly, and Morris were dominant elite players when I became a fan, so it's difficult to seperate their career numbers from what I remember from those first few impressionable years as a fan.

That said, my vote went to Blyleven. The best player not in the Hall.

If I had an actual ballot, I'd also vote for Dawson.

Lee Smith and Tommy John are close on my ballot. Jack Morris would be next on my list (but I admit that certain post season performances over ride his career numbers in my mind).

This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.

by HectorVillanueva on Dec 27, 2007 9:30 AM CST reply actions

McGwire and Future Voting

If I were a HOF voter I'd vote for Dawson, Gossage, Tommy John, and McGwire. I've always been open to the arguments for Rice and Blyleven. I still think the arguments against are a touch stronger but I could be swayed with just a little more evidence.

Any guesses on McGwire's vote total this year? It's just a guess, of course, but I'm guessing he will receive fewer votes than last year. Because so few writers have said they intended only to withhold from McGwire the honor of first ballot election (meaning they'd vote for him in subsequent years), I get the sense that most who did not vote for him will never vote for him. I'm also guessing that an effect of the Mitchell Report will be more voters withholding votes for anyone who has been the subject of mere rumors. I won't be at all surprised if, in a few years, we learn there is a small but unshakable group of writers who refuse to vote for anyone who played in the "Steroid Era" whether connected to rumor or not (those writers won't vote for Griffey, Frank Thomas, A-Rod, Jeter or anyone else from the last decade or two).

by Copter OBob on Dec 27, 2007 9:57 AM CST reply actions

Agreed.

Until the fallout from the PED stuff is over, I suspect McGwire doesn't get in.

And you know, if he'd just been truthful at the congressional hearings, I think people would have had a lot more sympathy for him. He came across as arrogant and with something to hide.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Dec 27, 2007 10:39 AM CST up reply actions

Evidence for Bert

Since 1900, Bert Blyleven ranks 5th in career strikeouts, 8th in shutouts, and 17th in wins. There is only one player in the history of major league baseball that is ahead of Bert in all three categories - Nolan Ryan.

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2005/12/the_hall_of_fam.php

This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.

by HectorVillanueva on Dec 27, 2007 11:03 AM CST up reply actions

I'm impressed with 60 shutouts

As you mentioned, there are eight pitchers ahead of him in career shutouts, all of them are in the HOF. The top 20 pitchers in career shutouts (50+) are in the Hall with the lone exception of Bert Blyleven.

His strikeout numbers are awesome, too.

Blyleven didn't get much love for All-Star selections, either. He was selected only twice in his 22-year career.

by flachimesa on Dec 27, 2007 11:47 AM CST up reply actions

Blyleven

You indicated that you believe that the arguments against Blyleven are "stronger" than the arguments for Blyleven. I have heard others say this, but I have never actually heard anyone enumerate any arguments against Blyleven other than the fact that his record's not that much over .500 and he has less than 300 wins. And that's not really a very good argument at all. Wins (and thus record %) are, in large part, a team stat, not a pitcher stat. Consider that Blyleven had seasons with more complete games than wins. Consider that he had a bunch of loses where he gave up only one run (he lost one game in 10 innings 1-0) or no earned runs. Wins and winning % just aren't good stats. What else makes up a case against Blyleven? I don't see anything.

by frustratedfan on Dec 27, 2007 10:59 PM CST up reply actions

Hall of Fame

Definitely Dawson! I just don't see how you don't put McGwire in. Yeah, he probably cheated, but so have many others already in. And for the record, i've never seen anybody beat the shit out of the ball like McGwire used to.

I don't remember enough about most of these players because they're before my time so i'll have to say:

Dawson
McGwire
Raines
Smith

C'mon Cubbies!!!

by McRipper on Dec 27, 2007 10:20 AM CST reply actions

Ballot and Big Mac

The reason you don't put McGwire in is this: Other than the HR explosion at the end of his career (likely chemically aided), he's in NO WAY a Hall of Famer. He had no speed (look at his 2b to HR rates) and was an adequate glove at his BEST, (And no, I don't care about Gold Gloves. Palmiero won one, Jeter's won a couple, we'll just say mistakes have been made), he has 1,626 hits for a .263 total average. He was injury prone. He had full season BAs of .231, .235 and .201 (.201!?). That was in '89-'91, 25-27 years old what is supposed to be a player's prime. He had 3 Really good Seasons ('87,'88,'92) before starting to juice in '95-'96 (that's when the Topps card pictures started changing noticeably). Before then he was a reputation All-Star because of those first two years and the fact that Oakland was always in the postseason.

After '95 you have a huge guy who could hit home runs (about 350 of them by my count). He had good OBP yes, but no one was pitching to him and he had very little behind him in the STL lineups. So, the HoF case really comes down to what happened in those three AMAZING years in St. Louis, and what you think they mean.

Look at Bonds. He started Juicing late in his career (reportedly, because Mac was getting away with it). He was already a HoFer with his 4 MVPs. Take away the Juice years (I look at them like War service in the 40's, they just don't count) and you still have a great player. Take away Mac's Juice and you have John Kruk. A good player for a few years, but no Hall of Famer.

For the Record:

Blyleven
Dawson
Gossage (If ANY relievers are in tha Hall, The Goose should be in the Hall)
Raines (He admitted his problem, stopped using, THEN had his best seasons.)
Trammell (Ozzie is in, Rizutto is in, Maranville is in, Trammell should be in)

(for those who wish to argue)
Mac's stats

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcgwima01.shtml

by nuflattop on Dec 27, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions

PS

Because it matters to some, Mac was also a dud in Postseason play. in 42 playoff games, he Hit .217 with 5 HRs and 14 RBI.

He was even worse if you only look at World series stats...

by nuflattop on Dec 27, 2007 12:12 PM CST up reply actions

OPS+

of 162 for his career and an OPS above .900

pretty impressive marks....

my issue is more if you extrapolate his early Oakland days stats, where his OPS+ was in the 130-145 range pretty consistently, is THAT good enough to get in as a 1B

i think it is... and i think without the roids that's probably his true level of performance as the #'s were pretty consistent during that time period

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 27, 2007 2:12 PM CST up reply actions

But...

You can't Just "extrapolate his early Oakland days stats." Mac doesn't get extra credit here. Mac had some craaaaappy seasons, during what should have been his prime, before his National league "renaissance." Why dont we 'extrapolate" those too? If we did, he'd be worse than the Hee Seop Choi experiment. If you applied this to other players, Dave Stewart would be the greatest pitcher since Seaver, Albert Belle would be a shoo in HoF candidate and Mark Prior would be health and making 30 starts a year.

If you were going to extrapolate seasons, you should extrapolate the injury prone strikeout machine years, because that's where he was before he started (the alleged) juicing. I mean you take PEDs to make you stronger, right? Enhance the ol' perfomance. how can you logically assume that he would have spontaneously started hitting 40-50 HRs a year on his own?

The question really is, how much credit can you give to a "juice year?" Half? 80%? None?

I have decided to treat them as blank years. I look at Barry Bonds like Kirby Puckett. He was a HoFer before he used, the others years don't count. Which makes Clemens broderline for me.

Thoughts?

Vote Santo!

by nuflattop on Dec 30, 2007 5:55 PM CST up reply actions

I've got

Blyleven
Dawson
Raines
Gossage

I struggle with McGwire but if i'm going to be lenient enough to let Dawson and Raines in, i should probably let Big Mac in

so there's my 5, adding in Big Mac

by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 27, 2007 10:30 AM CST reply actions

HoF

I would have the same 5, but I might also include Rice. I know his stats don't match the others. But for a period of in his career, I don't recall there being a more feared hitter.

by John in DC on Dec 27, 2007 12:21 PM CST up reply actions

HoF

Rice
McGwire

PERRY!!!!

by Goat Whisperer on Dec 27, 2007 10:32 AM CST reply actions

My picks

Dawson (this will increase value of my jersey, well not really)
Rice
Smith
Gossage

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Dec 27, 2007 10:38 AM CST up reply actions

My picks

I would vote for:
Blyleven
Dawson
Trammell
Raines
Gossage

On the Fence:
McGwire
Rice
John

Wouldn't vote for:
Morris
Concepcion

Should have been in a long time ago:
RON SANTO

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Dec 27, 2007 11:11 AM CST reply actions

Cocaine vs. PEDs

If voters don't vote for McGwire solely because of his alleged use of PEDs, do they not vote for Tim Raines because of his admitted use of cocaine during games?

Tim Raines has HOF-caliber numbers, but will voters hold it against him because he testified (during the Pittsburgh Drug Trials in '85) that he kept a gram of coke in his uniform pocket, snorted during games, and made a point of sliding head-first so as not to break the vial?

Does admitting to using drugs gain forgiveness?

What are your thoughts?

by flachimesa on Dec 27, 2007 11:16 AM CST reply actions

Coke vs. amphetamines

Since the HOF includes known amphetamine users, it only seems fair that anyone who did a little coke should get a pass if their career numbers make them worthy of induction.

by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Dec 27, 2007 3:11 PM CST up reply actions

picks

I would vote for:

Dawson
Rice
Gossage
Trammell
Blyleven

by jmroe23 on Dec 27, 2007 12:19 PM CST reply actions

Gossage should be a no-brainer

for this simple reason...

It's Game 7 of the WS, bottom of the ninth, two outs, bases loaded, tie game, and you, yes you, are at the plate, batting for your beloved Cubbies. Look at that ballot again, and tell me, who do you NOT want to see on the mound.

Heck, forget about the ballot - expand it to every pitcher who's ever pitched in the game. Outside of Bob Gibson, Rapid Robert Feller and maybe Walter Big Train Johnson, I'd say Goose Gossage is the one that would definitely give me the most nightmares. He should have been voted in a long time ago.

I'd also have voted in Pete Rose, the PLAYER, a long time ago as well. I'm well aware of his betting misdeeds as a manager, so go ahead and ban him if you no longer want him involved with the game and if it will make you feel better about ignoring all of baseball's other ills. But to deny his accomplishments as a player is pretty short-sighted.

Cooperstown as a baseball museum will probably be around for a long time and this is good. But its function as a 'Hall of Fame' is starting to lose its relevancy - fast.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 27, 2007 12:24 PM CST reply actions

Pete Rose

My guess is that Pete Rose will be inducted posthumously. That way, his accomplishments will be honored, but he won't get any satisfaction out of it.

BTW, have there ever been any allegations about Rose using steroids to help him play so long? I haven't heard any, but since he hung around with some pretty sleazy gym rat types, it's probably a good bet that he would have had easy access to them.

by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Dec 27, 2007 3:06 PM CST up reply actions

I agree on Gossage, Blyleven & Rice, and have

changed my mind on Trammell with the PED issue clouding the last 10 years.

I'm surprised there is no support for Jack Morris. Yes, he is/was an ass and hung on too long, but those descriptions work on far too many a good player. He was dominant for a long time on mostly crappy Tiger teams, 1984-1988 excepted. A WS hero with the Tigers and Twins and pitched his entire carreer in the AL, mostly the AL East. Not a likeable guy, but what a player.

by N Oakley on Dec 27, 2007 3:23 PM CST reply actions

Ted Lilly

Take Ted Lilly's 2007 season, averaged over the course of a career, and you have Jack Morris. If they had a HOF for every year do you think Ted Lilly would be in the 2007 edition? Nope. Jack Morris was a good pitcher but not a HOF'er. Had Morris had a peak as dominant as Maddux or Pedro he would probably get in, but he just wasn't that good. He doesn't belong.

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Dec 28, 2007 11:39 AM CST up reply actions

Agreed.

Morris had some World Series heroics, which is why people think he's better than he really was. Here are Morris' ten most comparable pitchers:

Dennis Martinez
Bob Gibson
Luis Tiant
Jamie Moyer
Red Ruffing
Chuck Finley
Amos Rusie
Burleigh Grimes
Bob Feller
Jim Bunning

Yes, there are some HoFers in there, but the only one who really belongs is Gibson. More comparable, actually, are Martinez and Tiant, and no one's promoting them for the Hall.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Dec 28, 2007 11:33 PM CST up reply actions

The question is

Will Shawon get even a single vote?

It's hilarious to see someone like Dunston even on the list. I did enjoy watching him over the years (except for whenever someone threw him a curve ball), but I'll bet even Shawon would admit he's not HOF material.

"Have Keith Moreland drop a routine fly. Give everybody two bags of peanuts and a frosty malt, And I'll be ready to die." -Steve Goodman

by danimal15 on Dec 27, 2007 8:43 PM CST reply actions

Id say none

Excluding Dawson,I wouldnt include any of them. Certainly not Mattingly, Garret Anderson has better careers numbers, would anyone consider him for Cooperstown?

If Mattingly gets in, you might as well put Mark Grace in, Grace has more hits, rbis, higher OBP.

So if the Boston and NYY hype machines vote in Rice and Mattingly, respectively, over Dawson, thatd be a shame.

As for closers, well I dont see how you can justify the position in the first place....let alone for the hall of fame, especially considering the man who retired with the most saves, Lee Smith, hasnt even come close...but closers are a part of the game, for better or worse, so why not Lee?

Toby Flenderson represents all that is wrong with the paper business.

by bren on Dec 27, 2007 10:11 PM CST reply actions

The thing about Mattingly..

... is that at his peak, his numbers were HoF worthy.

The problem is, of course, that his peak was very short -- only four seasons -- and then his career was derailed by injury. He played only 14 seasons, and 140 or more games only eight times. Had Mattingly not been injured, I have no doubt he would have had over 3000 hits and 400 HR and we wouldn't be having this discussion, as he'd already be in.

That said, because his career was too short, regardless of the reason, he doesn't belong in.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Dec 28, 2007 9:30 AM CST up reply actions

Right

Unfortunately for him its the hall of fame, not the hall of what might have been...but Ive read in a few places that given the findings in teh Mitchell report, some sluggers from the 1980s, read Jim Rice, will merit more consideration and likely get voted in b/c they played in the clean era and put up respectable numbers, when in fact, they are not hall of famers, but are viewed as such now b/c of all the players who eclipsed there numbers via PEDs.

Toby Flenderson represents all that is wrong with the paper business.

by bren on Dec 28, 2007 10:48 AM CST up reply actions

Mattingly

I'm convinced he'll get in, undeservedly. If the NY writers could get Phil Rizutto in, then anyone who ever played in NY can get in. Next they'll be voting for Mookie Wilson and Joe Girardi.

"Have Keith Moreland drop a routine fly. Give everybody two bags of peanuts and a frosty malt, And I'll be ready to die." -Steve Goodman

by danimal15 on Dec 28, 2007 9:04 PM CST up reply actions

Raines

I'd vote for him, probably above all but Dawson and maybe Blyleven. We're talking about one of the dominant leadoff men of all times, a career OBP of .385 and 800+ SBs with the best success rate of anyone with 300+ attempts. Check out Jay Jaffe's article on Raines in SI and prospectus:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/29/bp.raineshalloffame/
I never really liked him much as a player, but cocaine or otherwise, he should be in the Hall with Dawson this year.

by PrincetonCubs on Dec 27, 2007 11:48 PM CST reply actions