Hideki Matsui

by airweino on Dec 7, 2007 3:14 PM CST

I am not sure if this is "diary-worthy" (Seinfeld pun intended), but I am going to run with it.

Can someone explain what the deal is with the Yankees considering to deal Hideki Matsui? And for a reliever?

Our favorite site has the story: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/yankees-bullpen.html

The Giants seem to be talking a couple of pitchers for him. That seems cheap.

Am I missing something, or does this appears like something we could/should follow up on as well?

Could an OF with both Matsui and Fukudome in RF & CF be viable or realistic? I know Matsui has played a little CF in NY and Fuku is supposedly capable. This also allows for us to deal Pie for pitching or to fill another hole as well.

For sake of refernce, Matsui's 2007 line: .285/.367/.488 plus 25 HR

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Original news source.

Here's what the original source of the MLBTR post (this New York Times article) says:

The San Francisco Giants are interested in left fielder Hideki Matsui, but the Yankees do not believe they could get one of the Giants' top young starters, Matt Cain or Tim Lincecum, for him. If the sides become serious about a trade, the Yankees could seek relievers like Jonathan Sánchez, Brian Wilson or Kevin Correia.

Hmmm. Here's how I read it. The Giants want Matsui. The Yankees have asked for Cain or Lincecum and been told "no". So then the writer speculates that the Yankees could ask for relievers. But I doubt that would be all it would take.

(Incidentally, if the Giants don't make Wilson their closer this year, they're nuts. The guy has filthy stuff and throws 98 MPH.)

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Dec 7, 2007 3:10 PM CST reply actions

Plus

The Yankees have Melky Cabrera, Johnny Damon, and Bobby Abreu already.

They don't need a (very) expensive 4th OF.

I don't think Matsui is all that good personally. Certainly not worth the starters they were asking for from teh Giants.

by nickler on Dec 7, 2007 3:39 PM CST up reply actions

One might call Damon...

that (very) expensive 4th OF. Of course, Matsui would get a lot more in return. He was better than Damon by a lot last year.

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 4:15 PM CST up reply actions

I agree

it does appear more like speculation there...still worth kicking the tires though I would think...

Why get one Japanese star when you could possibly land two?

D-LEE!

by airweino on Dec 7, 2007 6:41 PM CST up reply actions

actually

ive watched him play numerous times and he is fact very good. he's just one of those guys that will always fly under the radar. he does exactly what he needs to do all the time. sac flies,sac grounders, hits the cut off man,clutch hits,no attitude. unless u watch him regularly you really dont appreciate the way he plays his team game. good teams have a bunch of these guys on the roster. he's much like our derosa. wont get any recognition but cant win without him.

GO CUBS GO!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Dec 7, 2007 3:48 PM CST reply actions

Matsui

is a better hitter than DeRosa, but I know what you mean. I'm only mentioning this because I think people underrate how good a hitter he is. In his ML career, Matsui's career #s, all in the AL East, have been .295/.371/.485. That's better than Abreu was last year .283/.369/.445, but somehow people have the impression that Abreu is better than Matsui. I think that mostly has to do with Joe Torre's batting order choices.

The Cubs could/should look into Matsui, especially if his price is relief arms. And if the Yankees deal Matsui, adding Matt Murton to their OF is not a bad idea at all, giving them a lot of flexibility and platoonability.

Here's a question for everyone - would you prefer to have Matsui at the cost of Murton and Wuertz or Fukudome at the cost of 4/60?

All I am saying is give Pie a chance!

by DGU on Dec 7, 2007 4:16 PM CST reply actions

if you choose Murton and Wuertz for Matsui...

... can we assume the cubs spend that 'saved money on, say, another pitcher (not thats there is any out in FA worth spending any on).

If they cubs spend a little cash on another piece to the puzzle with the money marked for fuky, then I say murton and wuertz for Matsui.

Otherwise, I sign Fuky, money is not an issue for the cubs, and it should not be ever.

"Secondly, there's a difference between being asleep at the wheel and passed out at the wheel, I would challenge passed out" ~ Tony LaRussa

by BigZ 4 Cy on Dec 7, 2007 4:23 PM CST up reply actions

Matsui, Any Day

If the Yanks are seriously looking to say adios to Hideki-san, we really should consider getting him. A solid defensive left-handed outfielder who plays hard all the time isn't the easiest thing to come by. He may not be the Godzilla that people forecast, but he's definitely a quality ballplayer.

Since I left, I've always missed Chicago but never as much as I do right now!

by TMOX on Dec 7, 2007 4:51 PM CST up reply actions

I Thought There Was a Rule...

... to how many Matsui's you were allowed to pursue in an offseason...

This is who I think the Cubs #1 should be...

by initram on Dec 7, 2007 9:52 PM CST up reply actions

Does Matt Suhey count?

http://www.athleticreporter.com/articles/article.ph7?id=256&issue=39

Hmm... I wonder what he's doing these days. Bears could probably use him.

Seriously. I'm not kidding.

Well, maybe a little.

After further review... Nope, I'm not. Bring back McMahon too.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 7, 2007 10:29 PM CST up reply actions

The "AL East" argument...

really is more appropriate for evaluating pitchers. Traditionally, I'd say the quality of pitching in the AL East is not dramatically different than that of other places. The reason the "in the AL East" argument holds is that the AL East has the two best offenses of the 2000s. It's especially true with regard to pitchers who play for teams other than the Yankees and Red Sox.

All that said, I'd rather have the Murton/Fukudome/Wuertz package. I think Fukudome will be within 50-60 points of OPS, and can play defense in CF and RF (unlike Matsui). And you'll get Murton who can be the RH platoon with Pie if necessary (and Murton may still become a very good hitter). And you get a very solid middle reliever.

Also, the reason people think Abreu is better than Matsui is because Abreu had been better than Matsui every year prior to last year. Abreu had a big dropoff last season from his career norms, but prior to that had been regularly a .400+ OBP and ~.900 OPS. Matsui is a .370 OBP and ~.850 OPS guy. And Abreu adds more speed. So while Matsui was better last year, it's certainly not unreasonable to think Abreu could be better again next year.

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 5:35 PM CST up reply actions

Good point

about Abreu/Matsui.

As for pitching in the AL East v. the NL Central, just eyeballing it, it seems like there are a lot more chump pitchers in the NL Central than in the Al East. Maybe a more thorough analysis would show that pitching is more uniform.

All I am saying is give Pie a chance!

by DGU on Dec 7, 2007 11:10 PM CST up reply actions

Yes, Abreu used to be better

he's no longer the same guy.

He'll still get on base, but his power is gone. The dropoff in Abreu's power isn't a one season fluke, last 3 years: 474, 462, 445. Career 500.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Dec 9, 2007 3:06 AM CST up reply actions

Yes, but...

the power drop over the last 3 years isn't what made Matsui better. As of 2006, Abreu was the better player, and he'd already experienced the power drop. The OPS drop in 2007 is what took Abreu from better than Matsui prior to last year to not better than Matsui last year. The power likely won't return. The OBP very well could. That, combined with the speed factor, would make him superior.

by SouthernCub on Dec 9, 2007 11:35 AM CST up reply actions

in a perfect world

we could have both matsui and fukudome!! i really really want fukudome.

GO CUBS GO!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Dec 7, 2007 6:30 PM CST reply actions

More scuttlebutt...

I read in one of the NY rags that one reason the Yankees are dangling Matsui is - believe it or not - to reduce payroll. Ordinarily that would make me laugh, and it still does, but it also hints to me that maybe the Yankees aren't quite out of the sweepstakes for a certain Minnesota pitcher. Remember, Boss Hank said they were thru with ARod and look what happened.

Also, I believe the Yanks still intend on moving their untouchable stud fireballer setup man Joba Chamberlain into the rotation, which leaves a pretty big hole in front of Rivera. Hence their possible interest in reliever(s) in exchange for Matsui. So I have to believe if the Cubs do kick the tires on Matsui, the Yanks will demand at least Marmol, maybe Marmol and somebody else.

Which would give me pause, but I'd have to at least consider it. Now if somehow Jimbo can get Matsui withOUT including Marmol, i.e. some combination of the usual suspects, then he gets my early vote for MLB Executive of the Year.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 7, 2007 7:25 PM CST reply actions

If Hendry included Marmol

I'd be ok if we also got to raid the Yankees prospect pantry and the prospect(s) was/were good enough.

All I am saying is give Pie a chance!

by DGU on Dec 7, 2007 11:12 PM CST up reply actions

I was going to post a similar point

I've also seen comments that the Yankees want to dump either Matsui or Mussina to free up money for Santana. Matsui would be easier to move that Mussina. Mussina only has one more year left but costs quite a bit and isn't very good anymore.

by rlpete on Dec 8, 2007 8:44 AM CST up reply actions

I was wondering about Moose

if he wouldn't be as high-reward with less risk as Bartolo Colon. If the Yankees were willing to "give him away" would you rather have him or Dempster/Marquis?

All I am saying is give Pie a chance!

by DGU on Dec 8, 2007 8:59 AM CST up reply actions

I doubt they would give him away

Based on his salary, I think I would rather have Marquis. With luck, he could come close to last year. I can only see Mussina being worse.

by rlpete on Dec 8, 2007 9:08 AM CST up reply actions

Matsui and Mussina

Owed 24 Million in 2008.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees would take Marshall, Dempster, and Wuertz for the two of them. That would mean sending about 8 Million in salary the other way. That would be enough for the Yankees to add Santana's salary, and allow them to include one of their top young pitchers in the deal.

Free the upper deck!

by cubzfan on Dec 8, 2007 11:04 PM CST up reply actions

I'll pass.

I live in New York, and get to see Matsui everyday. And the truth is he's in decline. He's still a good hitter but he's a terrible outfielder. The Yankees prefer Damon in LF to him and he'd be awful in RF if the Cubs were to obtain him.

I know I know, the stat heads are going to throw numbers my way. Look three years ago when he was paddling Slick Willie O's fastball at usin the upper deck of Yankee stadium I would have said "Good call" but since then he's gotten hurt, gotten older, gotten slower and gotten more expensive.

So no thanks for me.

"I can't be held responsible for what I personally tell my goons to do...."- C. Montgomery Burns

by yahoodi on Dec 8, 2007 9:01 AM CST reply actions

Not that I want Matsui...

... but that surprises me, given that his numbers last year were pretty similar to his numbers in his first ML season in 2003.

I haven't seen him play that much, so I'll take your word for it.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Dec 8, 2007 9:39 AM CST up reply actions

The Yankees are pitching starved

And, most of their young pitching talent got injured last year.

by Snake Plissken on Dec 8, 2007 7:20 PM CST up reply actions

I love it when people can dismiss the conclusions

...of statistics when they don't even know what they are.

ZR/Runs says that Matsui was about five runs below average as a left fielder; Johnny Damon about five runs above average. So nearly a win's difference.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 8, 2007 10:18 AM CST up reply actions

Funny in watching the Yankees last year

I thought the same thing. Matsui just looked like an old player even though his stats weren't too bad. I don't know if the injury impacted him or not but I would be leery of him.

If the Cubs do get Fukudome, hopefully he is more like Ichiro than Matsui. Ichiro seems like he could go on forever.

by rlpete on Dec 8, 2007 11:12 AM CST up reply actions

I don't dismiss conclusions.....

I simply refuse to have an arguement based solely upon them. I never have them handy and while I can Baseball reference the hell out of somebody,I like to use my own eyes and my own opinions when making my argument.

I wouldn't know how to interpret Zr/runs So I take what you say as truth. But I know Torre and now Girardi have stated their preference for Damon in left and Matsui at DH. So I chose that as my evidence rather than a stat I can't say I totally 100% grasp...

"I can't be held responsible for what I personally tell my goons to do...."- C. Montgomery Burns

by yahoodi on Dec 8, 2007 3:03 PM CST reply actions

The issue here is...

...you and the stats basically agree, which is why I found it amusing in the first place. Zone Rating says that Damon is a better left fielder than Matsui.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 8, 2007 3:15 PM CST up reply actions