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Winter Meetings Aftermath

It is December 7. What that means is: it's still 115 days till Opening Day, which would give Jim Hendry just a little bit more time to acquire more pieces of the ballclub that will take the field on March 31 against the Brewers at Wrigley Field.

Who will be some of those pieces? According to Bruce Miles, Erik Bedard won't be one of them, though the Cubs could wind up dealing for other Orioles, including Brian Roberts, although Gordon Wittenmyer says a Roberts deal is on the back burner. If the Cubs are looking for pitching, though, there's now a rumor -- perhaps unsubstantiated, although it's right here in Dave van Dyck's article -- that the Tigers are thinking about flipping Dontrelle Willis. For the right price, I'd think about it if I were Hendry.

Meanwhile, Mark Prior is still a Cub, but seeing him non-tendered next Wednesday looms as more and more of a possibility, as Bruce Miles writes:

There are two scenarios pleasing to the Cubs: They can non-tender Prior on the 12th and sign him back the next day as a free agent at a lesser salary (other clubs also are eligible to sign Prior then), or the Cubs and Prior can agree to a one-year contract plus a club-option year.

Cubs insiders say they aren't getting any indication Prior's side will go for an option year. The Cubs also say they have no idea when Prior will be able to pitch again.

And Phil Rogers says non-tendering is likely:

There were rumors Prior was headed from the Cubs to San Diego, Cincinnati or Texas, but sources with the Cubs say there was almost no interest in him from other clubs. Perhaps that's because they expect the Cubs to non-tender him Wednesday, losing the guy once projected as a multiple Cy Young Award winner for nothing.

Kosuke Fukudome watch: the Cubs are going "hard" after him IF he decides to come to North America, and even though there are reports on our favorite site saying "An answer from Fukudome is expected tonight or tomorrow" (regarding a supposed San Diego Padres offer), it seems to me that this may take longer, and also that Jim Hendry, as the MLBTR link also says, that the Cubs are going to try to blow away any other offer that could be made, at least financially. Dave van Dyck says that Hendry has a backup plan, but doesn't say what it is.

So? I'm talking about this guy. He was released by the Cardinals. Yes, he's almost 38 years old. Still, he hit .290/.350/.368 as a spare-part outfielder last year. Is he worth signing, if for no other reason than to have a Japanese-speaking teammate for Fukudome?

Finally, the wacky statement of the day was made by -- who else, White Sox GM Kenny Williams:

Reacting Wednesday to the blockbuster deal that sent power-hitting third baseman Miguel Cabrera and former All-Star left-hander Dontrelle Willis from the Florida Marlins to the Detroit Tigers -- wrecking the Sox' latest offseason plans -- Williams said: "All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

Mm-hmm, Kenny. Sure. Right now, with the Indians still powerful, the Tigers improving, the Twins always seeming to know what they want,  and the Royals making noises as if they want to at least attempt to contend, the White Sox look like a last-place team in the AL Central.

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THANK YOU!!!
 I read that piece, and almost fell out of my chair. Either Kenny doesn't get it, or he's thinking that his fan base doesn't. It's very easy to picture the Royals at .500 next season, and Ozzie fired by at seasons' end.

by Damen Jackson on Dec 7, 2007 8:38 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Correction Al
The White Sox look like the last place team in the AL and it makes me so happy.
Larry Rothschild= Bad Pitching Coach

by number1cubfan on Dec 7, 2007 8:38 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't care if the Cubs' GM said
there was no such thing as gravity and that hamsters should have the right to vote if he had won the World Series two years earlier.

by TR on Dec 7, 2007 9:10 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I realize your joking but I would care...
I realize you can always say he has done more than any baseball GM in Chicago in well...forever.  But why continue to give the guy a free pass? It is his job to annually give the team a shot at winning it all.  Can you have 1 great year at work and then cash it in for 2 or 3 years to follow?  You almost imply that if the Cubs won it all next year, you wouldn't care if the were viable contenders in the future years.  Maybe its being greedy but I want what the Red Sox have, being able to contend every year and I don't think this is unrealistic.
I just wish I knew why Sox fans blindly follow and listen to this guys crap.

by slocs55 on Dec 7, 2007 9:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A couple of things
First, I think Prior wants out from the Cubs organization and the faster the better as far as he's concerned.  I don't see him signing anything with the Cubs any time soon unless the Cubs are willing to blow him away with an offer and I don't think they are.

Second, KW is off his rocker.  I really believe he thinks he's the star of the team.  Honestly, I wouldn't be at all suprised if he's included in some of the action shots that are commonly used as promotions.  I could see billboards all over Chicagoland advertising the Sox with pictures of Konerko swinging, Buehrle throwing a pitch, and KW sitting behind a desk (pen in hand) signing a contract.  If he really believe what he said, the White Sox as an organization are in real trouble.

by NO100 on Dec 7, 2007 9:18 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

What's he smoking?
I hope Damen's right. I'm tired of the Williams/Guillen act. It worked on the south side when they were winning, but quickly grew tired when they crawled back to where they belong...the basement.
Cubs chances in '08? Beats the FUK-U-DO-ME!

by Hugest Canadian Cubs Fan on Dec 7, 2007 9:18 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

white sox
I don't know what has happened to White Sox fans, they continue to be bamboozled by Kenny Williams and the entire organization.  Dan McNeil himself on his radio show couldn't admit that the Tigers are now leaps and bounds ahead of the White Sox, Twins and Royals. Saying the standard line when you are most likely already defeated, "you don't play baseball on paper."

This is straight from the White Sox website and if I were a fan of their team I would be pissed. "Drawing the ire of critics, GM Ken Williams didn't pull off any blockbuster moves at the Winter Meetings in Nashville. Instead, he made shrewd moves to acquire Scott Linebrink and Carlos Quentin, which should put the White Sox in contention in the AL Central."

I understand there is a ton of time left in the off-season to improve your team but don't act like these moves are sufficient to compete in toughest division in baseball according to every White Sox.

by slocs55 on Dec 7, 2007 9:28 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Danny Mac sounded like a complete FOOL
with that nonsense yesterday.....oh my. Miguel Cabrera is one of the best offensive 3B in all of baseball.....add that to a healthy Sheffield....and MVP runner up Magglio.......and so much more......How are they not either the favorites in the division or at least tied or second with Cleveland.......

McNeil literally sounded baseball retarded as his former friend and colleague Terry Boras would say...

Super Mario Galaxy! Get it NOW!

by TheBeerBaron on Dec 7, 2007 12:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Boars should = Boers
Sorry, I'm sick today.....
Super Mario Galaxy! Get it NOW!

by TheBeerBaron on Dec 7, 2007 2:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, I'll Bite...
What is the right price for Dontrelle?

Personally, I think he might be a good fit for us.  200+ innings, a good BB/K ratio, and makes every start.  He's a definite upgrade over Marquis, and while he's not the superstar he was once projected to be, I think he'd fit nice as a middle of the rotation guy.  Not having to be "the ace" may take a little pressure off, plus staying in the NL will help him far more than being stuck in the AL Central.

Any takers?

This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.

by HectorVillanueva on Dec 7, 2007 9:30 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Right there w/ you
Feasible to think they would take Prior, Marshall and/or Marquis? Or is he even worth that much.  Yes, his numbers lately have jumped out at you.  But I really think coming here to the place that drafted him would be a nice fit.  Not that we're paying for personality, but he's always seemed like a pretty energetic guy who could bring something else to the team.  Plus now that I think about it, aren't Prior, Marshall, and Marquis pretty low key guys?
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry

by Jayo525 on Dec 7, 2007 10:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Marquis sucks.
Prior may never pitch again.

Marshall has never lasted a full season.

Meanwhile, the Tigers emptied out their system to land the biggest trade of probably the last decade.

And you think they're going to go around and turn Willis to us for what could be charitably called our scraps? Puh-lease.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 10:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
The Tigers are going to want pieces to win now.  Thinking about who they would ask for first, I think Marmol.  Zumaya will be missing part of next season.  The Cubs' young pitchers are a little too unknown for them.  Marmol seems like the sure thing that can help them in 2008 and 2009.    

by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 10:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I assumed
it would take a few solid prospects at the least.  With the news that the Tigers were after Cabrera, but had to take Willis too, you wonder if they really want to keep him.  $6.45 million is a bargain for a player of his calliber (Marquis costs 6.3 mill), so I honestly don't know why the Tigers would want to trade him away at all, but it was suggested in the initial post.  

I think he'd fit nicely in our plans - an upgrade over Marquis at the same dollar amount.  Now, obviously he would cost us in trade, but he'll come far cheaper than Bedard (not nearly as good, I know).  What would the Tigers want?  What are their needs?

This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.

by HectorVillanueva on Dec 7, 2007 10:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I specifically was replying...
...to the poster that suggested those three chips.

In general -- the Tigers have an absolutely stacked lineup; I can't see what we'd offer them as far as position players go. So they'd want pitching. I think Marmol sounds about right, and there's no way I'd want to do that. So I say stay out of that particular conversation.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 10:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Detroit did empty out thier farm system
to get the deal done.  Could they perhaps want some A/AA talent that could develop in 2 or 3 years?  I recognize that's tough to estimate how that talent will turn out at this point, but they could use Willis to try to restock.

by NO100 on Dec 7, 2007 10:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Generally speaking...
...you empty out the farm so you can win now, and worry about restocking the farm system later. If the Tigers wanted young prospects instead of Willis, you have to figure they would have just not done the deal. I know there's more to it than than just that (Miguel Cabrerra comes to mind), but they have to deal with the local press as well.
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 11:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No, the Tigers wouldn't accept
why would they do that deal? I would rather keep Willis then to get all that garbage. First if I'm the Cubs I'm keeping Prior. Secondly Willis is just another #3 starter. We have 3 of those already.

Only pitchers on the market that we should be interested in are Bedard & Haren -- if we even have enough to get those 2.

"Losing is my only fear"

by Unique on Dec 7, 2007 10:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Tigers need youth
The Tigers just dumped their best prospects for the deal to Florida.  Their major league roster is fine, they need to restock the farm, so any Willis deal would probably have to include some high upside but young guys - Colvin, EPat, Veal, Vitters, those kind of guys.  

And I don't think we have the prospects or attractive ML contracts to acquire EITHER of Bedard or Haren, let alone both...

"Look, what's important is to be in first place on the last day of the season." -Lou 8/1/07

by 26.2cubfan on Dec 7, 2007 11:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't mean
getting both Haren and Bedard. I meant either/or.
"Losing is my only fear"

by Unique on Dec 7, 2007 11:14 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry
I think that may have been the Beer talking from last night, most of which was consumed after I realized how much the Bears really do suck. My apologies.
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry

by Jayo525 on Dec 7, 2007 11:07 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No Taguchi.
"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Dec 7, 2007 9:32 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I still say Raul Ibanez
is a nice short-gap solution in RF, paving the way for Ty Colvin.

Nice OBP, power, lefty, hits for average, hits with RISP, average fielder (according to the league), and certainly "affordable" in a trade.

Fast? - sigh - faster than Daryl Ward. But then so am I.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 9:50 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

why isn't Bedard even on the Cubs radar...
Mr. Miles? Even though the Cubs may not have the best package to offer, Jim and Gary have to at least be looking in that direction.

This especially if there's a potential mega-trade to be made that would also include Roberts.

I could care less about what happens south of Madison Ave.

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 7, 2007 10:02 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

My guess is that he was discussed
and the price was too high.  He could always be considered later but right now, the Orioles are probably asking for a lot.

by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 10:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

On the radio this morning
Dave Kaplan claimed to have an inside scoop and said the Cubs "are first in line" for Chone Figgins. Also mentioned that they're still trying to get Roberts AND fukodome. Claims hendry wants all 3. Also said Soraino would move down in the lineup.

Again, this is what I heard, not what I think.

by 10 14 23 26 on Dec 7, 2007 10:14 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

if hendry is seriously pursuing all three
that tells me that pie is being traded. IF hendry is pursuing all three, and thats a big if to me

by philadelphiacub on Dec 7, 2007 10:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Reply - Figgins...
I don't know if you've heard Kap's shows this week, but it is apparent that the ONLY way for Figgins to be shipped out is if they got a 3rd baseman FIRST. Its one of those, "he's available if xyz happens first...".

This is a true longshot. IF you hold your breath on this one, you'll asphixiate yourself.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 10:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
If the Cubs did sign Fukudome and trade for Roberts, they would be able to send DeRosa to the Angels to play third, and very well, I might add.  DeRosa and a prospect could be worth Figgins.

Just sayin'.  It's not THAT far out there.  

Free the upper deck!

by zambranofan on Dec 7, 2007 1:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

that's the ticket
Everyone keeps thinking that DeRosa stays if the Cubs acquire Roberts....no it makes DeRosa available to acquire another player who fills the Cubs need....Figgins would fill the spot of CF and if Pie does actually make it, than he is the super sub that DeRosa filled. Roberts fills a lead off spot that allows the Cubs to move Soriano down to the 3-hole, moving Lee down and then if Fukudome does actually come giving the Cubs the following order:

Roberts....Fukudome...Soriano....Lee...Ramirez...Soto....figgins....theirot....

There might be more balance moving Fukudome to the 3rd hole and Soriano to the second or fifth spot with Figgins or pie in the 2-hole. But Lou knows better.

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Dec 7, 2007 2:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Like your signature...
gonna be adding a "31" in a few years.

That's the aggressive style I like to hear about Hendry.

MLBTR has now listed the Cubs as 1 of 7 non-AL East teams interested in Bedard.

Wow, he pulls off 3 of these 4, he would be correct; Lou will have a Merry, Merry Christmas!

Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 7, 2007 11:07 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ahhh... but is "21" on deck after that?
Jason Marquis certainly hopes so...  ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 7, 2007 4:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What evidence do you have of this?
n/t
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 7, 2007 12:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Say no to So!
My series of Internet tubes was down for most of yesterday, so I'm getting caught up here. But... NO SO TAGUCHI!

Thank you.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 10:21 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Eh.
I wasn't necessarily promoting it (signing Taguchi), just wondering if anyone was interested.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 7, 2007 12:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Backup Plans?
Other than Ibanez who would be available as a backup plan for Fukudome?  I'm struggling to come up with much.  

by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 10:24 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

how's this
Since the Dogers signed Andruw Jones they talked about moving Pierre to Left, that would leave one of their prospects out of a position and Either is a lefty so why would'nt Hendry go after him?

by Ga Cub on Dec 7, 2007 10:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not bad...
I'd imagine the Dodgers would like to unload Kemp before Ethier, but what about Hideki Matsui? I know he want to stay in NY, but what would he want to waive his no-trade clause? Also, what do you think Cashman would ask for in return?
You ARE freaking out MAN!

by crw89 on Dec 7, 2007 1:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Rays,
The Rays are fishing for Ethier according fox sports

by Ga Cub on Dec 7, 2007 1:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No way
I don't know anyone who thinks Ethier is better than Kemp. On the other hand, I don't know Ned Coletti.

Kemp is three years younger and has way more upside.  I would think the Dodgers would much more willing to part with Ethier.  But if they're willing to part with Kemp, I say do what it takes to get him.  He's going to be an all-star.

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh77 on Dec 7, 2007 2:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, Plan D emerges, too
Milton Bradley, who has a $4MM/1yr. offer from the Pads truly has excellent splits. Nice OPS, OBP, average, decent speed...

BUT

Somehow I can't envision him in a Cubs uni.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 10:45 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Tokyo Time...
BTW - its 14 hours ahead in Tokyo. 1:51AM local time, FWIW.
Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 10:54 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Williams
Apparently he has been blaming the media and others for sinking the White Sox plans this off season, as well as in the past. Sorry, Kenny, but with the 29th ranked minor league system you didn't have the prospects to compete with the Tigers to land Miguel Cabrera. Does he really think that loose lips caused the Tigers to get in the Sox way? Damn I hate the overarching message behind what Williams has to say.

But please, go out and get Juan Pierre.

DmL

by dmlichte on Dec 7, 2007 12:20 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Wait, seriously?
I can't decide if that would be awesome (because the Sox would officially be trying to hit bottom) or horrible (because then the Dodgers wouldn't have to pay for their past sins and Ned Colletti escapes justice for one more year).
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

fukudome
Ok, here's the question.

Does Hendry get a free pass on a Fukudome signing no matter what happens?

Let's say San Diego has offered 3/21, and Hendry, to blow everyone else out of the water, goes crazy and offers 3/45. Too much money, but it's a done deal, Fukudome will start in RF for the Chicago Cubs. Now, let's say he puts up a stinker. Imagine that he can't hit ML pitching. Opposing pitchers immediately discover that because Fukudome is falling away from the plate on every swing that he simply can't cover the outside of the plate. He adjusts and shortens up his swing to catch up to the superior pitching, and now the competition finds out he can't hit a breaking ball. He plays the whole season, and when he isn't striking out is weakly rolling the ball to second base. Final line for '08: .220/.280/.320.

This goes on for two more years.

Does Hendry get run out of town by an angry pitchfork and torch carrying mob, or does he get a free pass because the outcry for Fukudome is so boisterous, and fans recognize Hendry had no choice but to sign him at all costs? Is it a fact, right now, that not signing him, not beating the best offer is more likely to cost him his job, than the above scenario?

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 12:50 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

The real answer is...
...unless Jim Hendry does something amazing to make himself an untouchable in this town, he'll probably be purged when the new owners come in, no matter what.
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 1:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

boo
total cop-out. you answer the question with an evasion to the question. boo.

i'll take it to mean that you feel hendry should do whatever it takes to sign fukudome cause it doesn't matter what happens after that.

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 1:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know how the truth is a copout.
The current ownership will not fire Jim Hendry, because they can't sign a qualified replacement because of the ownership situation; nobody will take the job.

On the other hand, the new ownership group is likely to dismiss Hendry so that they can bring in their own front office staff, and that's likely to happen regardless of Fukudome's hitting next season.

If the facts aren't germaine to your question, then ask a better question. But don't make baseless accusations.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 1:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Read this carefully before you comment
Do not be so certain that a new ownership group will automatically dismiss Hendry.

What if the Cubs make the playoffs in 2008 and go farther than they did in 2007? That would likely mean Hendry and his staff stay. What the Cubs need, more than a "new" staff, is MORE staff, which most other teams have. New ownership is likely to provide this.

More resources are what's needed. I'm not necessarily defending everything Hendry has done or will do, but don't let your blind hatred of him lead you to the assumption that he'll automatically be replaced the second new ownership comes in.

Further, I'd expect new ownership to retain virtually everyone else. Keep in mind that the Cubs have been a success everywhere but on the field. Why would new ownership want to replace, say, marketing and broadcasting people who have done a good job?

Food for thought.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 7, 2007 2:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I did go ahead and say "unless Hendry does...
...something incredible," because there is a possiblity that Hendry could achieve enough success to keep his job in Chicago (although I'm thinking that anything short of a World Series appearance falls well short of that).

That said, if he does well enough this year, the world of baseball executives is very insular, and he very likely could find himself new employment in a few years if he puts together a good showing this season. Either way he has no reason to care about the long-term consequences of his actions, so long as he has the feeling that his new masters won't care; gutting the farm system needlessly likely wouldn't reflect well on him, but every GM overcommits on years in free agency, so I don't think that alone would sink his future career prospects.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 2:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and...
...you're probably thinking of someone else when you mention my blind hatred of Jim Hendry. I have something of a track record for defending Trader Jim around here, or at least thought I did.
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 2:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right about that.
The "blind hatred" comment was not intended for you specifically; it was aimed more at the many here who DO have such blind hatred. Should have made that more clear.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 7, 2007 2:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

SHUT UP...I HATE YOU...
whoever you are.

:)

MMMMM...Golden shrimp and chicken combo from Ron of Japan!

by Kinky Reggae on Dec 7, 2007 2:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If Jim Bowden survived the ownership change
in Washington, Hendry could survive it here especially if the Cubs do well this year.  

by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 2:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

huh? that's a new one.
if the answer evades the question the question is not good? boo again. :)

your hypothetical scenario falsely presented as facts are not germane to my hypothetical question.

the question is still out there, if hendry knowingly overvalues fukudome, would he be accountable should fukudome turn out to be a bust?

(note: cwyers, you don't have to answer the question if you don't want to... don't want you to feel pressure to post more tangential hypothetical scenarios... i'm not really interested in them... so consider yourself off the hook here.)

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure the question is a good one...
Who are you suggesting is giving the pass?  The fans?  The media?  The team brass?  Because ultimately the answer may be different for each.

The fans will have thousands of opinions.  Some will give him a pass.  Some will call for his head.  Some will say there are lots of things to consider.  But ultimately, their opinions don't really matter.  Hendry doesn't make decisions to appease the fans.  He makes decisions to try to win ballgames, so that he can keep his job.

The media changes their mind every day.  Their job is to sell papers.  So whatever provocative opinion they can present is what they're going to write, regardless of the facts.  And again, the opinion of the media is irrelevant in Hendry's fate.

The team brass is going to make the decision based on results.  If we win, Hendry has a chance to stay on.  If we lose, Hendry very likely will get fired.  His future in terms of the brass probably has very little (if any) direct link to the success of Fukudome if we get him.

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry
Not sure the question is a good one..

the question is good, its great even. I don't get why we are discussing the merits of the question.

Who are you suggesting is giving the pass?

Sorry for the confusion. I'm talking about Hendry receiving a free pass from the fans. So instead of generalizing, you have to look at it from your perspective as a fan.

hypothetical situation:

  1. hendry knowingly, or even unknowingly overvalues fukudome, and pays him "whatever it takes" to put him in a cubs uniform
  2. fukudome's a bust, hendry made a mistake, the contract causes more losing. but it is a gigantic enough bust to make it a colossal mistake.
as a fan would you, if granted the power, fire hendry? or does he, from you, get a free pass.

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Replace good with very clear then...
If you are still implying that Hendry is making the decision because of the fans' interest in Fukudome, then I stick by my statement that this is not the case.  He's interested in Fukudome because his scouts and Piniella really want Fukudome, and they think Fukudome will make a big difference for the team.

Thus, it's purely a matter of evaluation.  If Fukudome does well, Hendry deserves credit for good evaluation.  If he does badly, I'd ding Hendry for a poor player evaluation.  I don't know if I'd fire him or not, but it'd definitely not be a feather in his cap.

Mind you, I don't personally think Fukudome will hit any better than Matt Murton.  So yes, I'd hold it against him for poorly evaluating Fukudome.

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.
For the moment, the only person Jim Hendry has to please is Crane Kenney. Kenney has already given Hendry the authorization to gamble X amount of dollars on Fukudome's performance. Kenney is a partner in this decision, given what I've read of him following McPhail's resignation; Kenney is very hands-on in the minutea of Cubs contracts, is my impression.

The overall point is that when evaluating Hendry as a GM, it's most appropriate to evaluate his entire body of work, not just one move.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 2:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

nope
The overall point is that when evaluating Hendry as a GM, it's most appropriate to evaluate his entire body of work, not just one move.

maybe my post right above yours will help clarify. The overall point is NOT "that when evaluating Hendry as a GM, it's most appropriate to evaluate his entire body of work, not just one move"

the overall point (question really) is, and pick any degree you want: if fukudome's a bust, and in my hypotheitcal situation, he's a colossal bust, a flushing 45+ million dollars down the toilet. Is it a strike against hendry, or does is this signing absolved of traditional scrutiny.

more help for you: imagine (and again this is hypothetical) tomorrow hendry trades for will ohman and gives him a 10 year, 100 million dollar extension. would you fire him the next day? Or would you say, ok, that was a lot of money but maybe you know something we don't know, and give him a year, watch ohman post a 22.98 ERA in 75 IP, and then fire hendry?

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry
but I don't think anyone understands what your point is.  Of course, if Fukudome stinks some of that will fall on Hendry.  Whether that alone causes him to be fired, I doubt it.  It will be a lot of different things.  Will the fans give him a pass?  Obviously a lot won't.  Maybe 63.344845% of the fans won't give him a pass.  

by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 2:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

answer for yourself
don't answer for "fans", answer for "rlpete"

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pointless question...
is anybody going to say "yeah, I'll give Hendry a free pass if Fukudome stinks?"  On what basis would anyone give such a free pass?

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I still don't understand the point
Ok, yes if he is a bust then Hendry has to take the blame but what does that mean?  It's his job to make these decisions.  What is difference between that and if Soriano is a bust?  

What if Fukudome is a bust but Hendry pulls off some great deal for Roberts and Bedard and the Cubs win the World Series?  Then it really doesn't matter to me or probably to most Cub fans.  Looking at one single decision and trying to grade Hendry makes no sense.  

by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 2:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

really?
Looking at one single decision and trying to grade Hendry makes no sense.

If you think that, then yeah, this wouldn't make any sense.

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 3:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You don't know what you are talking about
No reasonable person will judge Hendry on one single signing.  If Fukudome hits .220 but Bedard and Roberts lead the Cubs to a World Series win, no one will be booing Hendry at the post-season celebration.  I can guarantee it.    

by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 3:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Apples and oranges...
You KNOW that Ohman isn't worth that contract.  You don't have any idea whether Fukudome is worth what he gets or not.  I think you need a better hypothetical than that one, because the two situations aren't remotely similar.  Moreover, that's a different question than what you were originally asking.

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

bah
You don't have any idea whether Fukudome is worth what he gets or not.

We certainly have some idea.

It's not apples and oranges. It is a philosophical endeavor enhanced by looking at extreme cases.

You KNOW that Ohman isn't worth that contract.

We are more comfortable with our assessment that he isn't worth the contract, but it is just a matter of degrees of certainty. Shrink the contract if you are more comfortable with it. instead of 10/100, make it 3/11. Or increase the contract for Fukudome, whatever...

sigh

all of it boils down to: when is it ok to overpay a player?

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It IS apples and oranges...
Fukudome is coming from an entirely different baseball system.  While we can guesstimate, we really have no idea what to expect from Fukudome.

Conversely, Ohman has spent several years proving he's not worth the contract you suggest.  I give a 100% guarantee that Ohman is not worth that contract.  I can't say that about Fukudome.  So yes, it's apples and oranges.

You keep changing the question and the question still is not an interesting one.

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 3:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And again...
your last question is VERY different than the other hypothetical questions you've posed. Don't get frustrated with people because you aren't good at articulating your question (or maybe aren't sure which question you really want to ask).

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 3:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Now THAT'S a question we can answer.
It's appropriate to overpay a player when the marginal value of a win for your team exceeds the general marginal value of a win for the league.

Generally speaking, a marginal win costs $4.4 million through free agency, although this varies based upon how you determine replacement level and such. Since this is a hypothetical thought exercise, we can go ahead and argue that another time -- go ahead and just consider $4.4 million an abstraction if you like.

But not all wins are created equal: take a look at this graph for an idea of how the value of a win changes based on the baseline talent level of the team. (Ignore the specific values; I'm using a different replacement context than BP is here and the chart hasn't been updated for inflation for this offseason.)

Now, that chart is an abstraction for many ballclubs; in the Cubs specific situation (and the Brewers, for that matter) there are division quality issues that change the shape of that curve a bit.

But the basic idea is: you overpay for wins when you're at the top of that curve, i.e., when one win can mean the difference between playing in October and staying home. Certainly the Cubs seem to be in that situation.

Therefore, a marginal win has much more value to the Cubs than a marginal win to the, say, White Sox. So the Cubs are justified in "overpaying" a player relative to ballclubs who are on the wrong part of the curve.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 3:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, with an addition...
you ALSO overpay when the player may draw greater revenue than a player of equivalent ability.  This is especially pertinent in this case, where Fukudome draws a new market for revenue.  He introduces the Asian market to the Cubs, both in terms of revenue and potential future player acquisitions.

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 3:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to agree
because his poor record of developing talent and assembling the right parts will probably be his undoing.

I think he has value, but in a different role than GM.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Dec 7, 2007 3:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There are no free passes for GMs...
Did Hendry get a free pass for signing Wood to an extension after 2003 (thought to be a great deal at the time) when he then proceeded to break down every year thereafter?  Did he get a free pass for re-signing Nomar to a one-year deal when Nomar got hurt again?

The media (and fans) have short memories.  They'll forget how much "everyone" wanted Fukudome if Fukudome turns out to be a bust.  And it doesn't have to be a bust to the nature you suggest.  Even if he turns out to be a .750 OPS guy, it'll be a black mark on Hendry.

That's the nature of the business.  You're graded on downstream results, not on how well you do the "right" thing at the time.

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 1:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

injuries don't count
injuries are not predictable, hendry gets a free pass on those contracts.

performance is very much projectable. translating success as a member of the Chunichi Dragons is difficult, which is why this will be an interesting case.

This is the primary job of the GM.

That's the nature of the business.  You're graded on downstream results, not on how well you do the "right" thing at the time.

I disagree with this. doing the "right thing at the time" very much correlates to the results downstream. Sometimes you get unlucky (kerry wood, nomar garciapparra, but people don't get fired for that... they get fired for things like giving jack wilson 3/20, or for trading kazmir for zambrano. GMs get fired for not properly valuing their players.

I'm pretty comfortable guessing that from the projections, and the scouting reports the cubs have on fukudome he's not worth more than 3/21. The question is, does hendry gamble, on behalf of the fans who are overly, and to a wild degree, optimistic of what fukudome will bring. And if he does, is he responsible for the decision anymore?

:)

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 1:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But he HASN'T gotten a pass on those...
I agree that it's not his fault that Wood fell apart.  But that doesn't mean that he's been graded as a GM in large part due to that contract and the resulting fallout regarding Wood.

Also, GMs get fired for ANY reason that the team with a relatively big budget doesn't succeed.  Some get fired for not valuing their players properly.  Some get fired because the players they signed fell apart.  Whatever the reason, GMs get fired when their teams don't succeed.

And finally, I'm pretty sure Hendry doesn't make ANY transactions based on what the fans clamor for.  He makes decisions based on what he thinks will give him the best chance to win (and thus keep his job).  Sometimes, those decisions happen to match what the fans think (Soriano, Fukudome), sometimes they don't (Marquis, DeRosa).  But I definitely don't think he makes moves in the interest of appeasing the fans, because the fans won't decide if he's fired or not.

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 1:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Right...
...and sometimes, GMs aren't even fired for what it is they've done, so much as they're sacrificed to appease the baseball gods.

Jim Hendry is very unlikely to make moves to appease either the fan base or the local press corps (by which I mean the Rodgers and Mariottis) precisely because he knows that their memories are short; Jay Mariotti in particular is absolutlely shameless in the "We were always at war with Eurasia" game. Winning solves all problems.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 1:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So
let's ask you jacob...

Does Hendry get a huge extension if Fukudome is paid very well and turns out an all star 1st year and then goes on to improve each year till he surpasses Ichiro?

Same type of question isn't it?

Either way, we all know Hendry wants to throw money his way because of how hyped he is.  I would guess that if other teams had as glaring a hole in RF and with LH hitters, that they would be in the same position as Hendry.

Therefore, whether KFuk ends up a star or a flop, I think Hendry is going to do what he needs to to pick up what he thinks will fill our holes.

Period.

MMMMM...Golden shrimp and chicken combo from Ron of Japan!

by Kinky Reggae on Dec 7, 2007 2:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

answers
Does Hendry get a huge extension if Fukudome is paid very well and turns out an all star 1st year and then goes on to improve each year till he surpasses Ichiro?

Yes.

Same type of question isn't it?

Yes.

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think your valuation...
...is rather low. Obviously there's downside risk with Fukudome, but there's a lot more downside risk in the free agency market than teams generally account for, so I don't know how Fukudome is wildly different than any other free agent the Cubs could acquire.

That said, you insulate yourself against a lot of that risk by limiting the deal to a three-year commitment. The estimates of his value I've seen generally center around 3/30 or 3/35; the Cubs can probably afford to go over that because the value of a marginal win to the Cubs is higher than the value of a marginal win to a lot of other ballclubs.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 2:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Great question
This is why I don't envy Hendry or any other GM. It's the classic "damned if I do/damned if I don't".

I don't think it's taking the easy way out to say no matter what Jim does if Fukudome doesn't put up the same or better numbers in a Cubs uniform, Jim will be blamed. Same as if Fukudome plays below expectations or better with another team.

I don't know if there is an answer to the over pay/don't pay question. Interesting topic.

by Tangled Up In Blue on Dec 7, 2007 2:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

nice post.
i don't envy him either. the jazz man below says it is win-win. i worry for hendry it is lose-lose.

despite the posts that say fans don't influence what a GM does, i disagree. I'll grant that the effect is tiny, but team owners are fans, too. And if the cubs have the means to make a puzzle piece fit, fans will be confused and upset if it doesn't happen.

you can justify overpaying for soriano, he fit the cubs nicely. fans got upset, very upset about missing out on furcal. fans were upset with doug melvin for coming up just a few million short on francisco cordero.

the outcry for fukudome, while it may not directly influence hendry's actions, parallels something that is likely going on in the front office. the potential for a huge upgrade with this signing is likely worth more than the projections suggest.

but if fukudome's a bust, well then all that potential is wiped away and the cubs are stuck with a gross contract.

two ways to luck at it... the pockets are deep enough to take those risks, or they are deep enough not to need to take those risks. either way the margin for error here is huge.

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i didn't clarify
this part: i worry for hendry it is lose-lose.

the idea here is that the hype is enough that no matter what happens there will be some let down. i'm sure there is some good cliche here that i'm not coming up with...

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It is an interesting topic...
...not only with Fukudome, but with acquisitions in general.

Correct me if I am wrong, Jacob, but I think you're discussing what the "hype machine's" role is in influencing GM decision.

I think as fans we sometimes lose sight of the overall picture. I think I'm safe in saying that the majority of us here at BCB want to see Hendry sign Fukudome. If that doesn't happen, for whatever reason, there will be let down and outcry. Same as if Hendry over pays and Fukudome doesn't pan out and we are tied to a large contract. That's just the nature of being a fan in my opinion. It takes years to see the overall impact of a trade or signing and that's what we sometimes forget. I know I do.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.  

by Tangled Up In Blue on Dec 7, 2007 2:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And I'd say the "hype" machine
has no influence on Hendry's decision.  He was scouting Fukudome long before Fukudome got hyped.  He thinks Fukudome helps the team's chances.  He's not falling prey to media/fan hype.

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
Hendry did not sign Soriano because the fans were upset because the Cubs lost out on Furcal.  It is stupid to think that.  Hendry signed Soriano because ownership finally opened the purse strings and Soriano happened to be the big name that year.  

Hendry is not going after Fukudome because the fans want him.  He is going after him because he has money to spend and he is available without having to give up a lot.  You can argue that he might be too expensive.  I might even agree with you but there aren't many options available.  To think the fans are driving this decision is wrong.  

by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 3:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

To clarify
I don't believe Hendry is influenced by the "hype machine" in pursued Fukudome at all. The discussion, as I understood it better Jacob and I, was at what point does a GM have to stop bidding.

The Padres can up the bidding now to make the Cubs overpay knowing that Hendry has targeted Fukudome as his number one priority. At what price does it become a point of diminishing returns as far as contract goes for Hendry?

For the record, I am all for Fukudome playing on the Northside next season.

by Tangled Up In Blue on Dec 7, 2007 3:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

thanks!
:)

despite getting such an incredibly hard time about all this from a couple posters, and despite the fact that it took me so long to see that's what was going on, i'm glad i asked because this is a great response!

For the record, I am all for Fukudome playing on the Northside next season.

For you, Hendry gets a free pass, if Fukudome is playing at the friendly confines it's a win. There is something special about baseball that is exemplified beautifully in the pursuit of kohsuke fukudome. This (his) potential in and of itself. The excitement of adding a player with fukudome's potential impact allows us as fans to toss aside reason. If I were hendry I'd overpay whatever it took to bring fukudome to the Cubs. I'd toss aside my translations, my projections, my salary charts and sign him. It's almost as much the mystique, the unknown entity, as it is the potential impact.

It's rare you get a shot at such an exciting player that (for 9/10ths of the league) doesn't put the fiscal solvency of the franchise at risk.

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 3:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I couldn't agree with you more.
Tossing aside your projections, etc. Well said.

This is a great topic and one that I will be bringing up with my friends over a couple of beers later on tonight :)

by Tangled Up In Blue on Dec 7, 2007 4:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

For the record...
...I came to my conclusion using translations, projections, salary charts, and marginal win values.

Just saying.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 5:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yikes, corrections
not luck, look. "two ways to look at it"

not margin, potential. "either way the potential for error here is huge."

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well that's just a stupid way...
...of evaluating baseball contracts, although I wish I could say that it was uncommon.

Look: sometimes teams will sign a bad contact based on the available information, the player will outperform reasonable expectations and it will end up looking like a good deal even though it was irresponsible. On the other hand, sometimes you'll sign a good deal based on the information at hand, and the player will underperform reasonable expectations.

Think of it as a game of poker. There's countless books out there on how to appropriately play Texas Hold-em; using simple math we can figure out the probabilities of winning a hand or drawing the card we need based on the flop and our hole cards, and we can adjust those odds. Certainly the best players can play against those odds if they get a good read on people and come out ahead; and if you do nothing but play the odds it becomes way to easy to get a read on you and you'll get taken to the cleaners. But the odds are what they are.

Now, sometimes a string of bad luck will occur, and even a player who knows the odds and the "intangibles" of the game pretty well will get suckered. That happens. But I'd rather stake that player for the next game than the guy who got lucky, won big and confused that with being skilled at poker. (Kenny Williams, I'm looking at you.)

In my mind, the common dumb mistakes in contract evaluation are:


  • Evaluating player contracts based solely on the first year.
  • Failing to recognize the effects of luck, good or bad. (About 60% of BABIP is sheer luck, and let nobody confuse you on this point.)
  • Confusing performance with true talent level.
  • Misunderstanding the marginal value of a win.

I don't need to wait a year to decide if I like Fukudome's contract or not. If I'm wrong about it in a year, I'll admit to it.

But the Fukudome deal won't be a failure if he stinks in the first year, because you have to look at total value of the three years of the contract; that's still three years Fukudome could use to provide value on his contract to the team.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 3:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

good post.
might be nice for a new thread. a start to a primer on evaluating contracts even...

I don't need to wait a year to decide if I like Fukudome's contract or not. If I'm wrong about it in a year, I'll admit to it.

clearly you understand how all of this works. so...

THE QUESTION: 3/45 for Fukudome. + or - for Hendry?

by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 3:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Do it.
n/t
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 3:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Completely agree.
Evaluating talent and signing players to contracts is a game of poker. I also agree that the true value of a contract can not be determined in a season or even two.

I am all for signing Fukudome. I believe his potential value to the Cubs is worth the risk involved. That may have been Jacob's initail post, but we were discussing at what point does overpaying for a player hurt more than help a ballclub.

by Tangled Up In Blue on Dec 7, 2007 3:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And after 20-30 posts on this topic...
... this one sums it all up. In complete agreement.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 7, 2007 4:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This is a no-lose signing
and here's why:
  1. FYI, the Padres offer is 3/30.
  2. Fukudome HAS an offer to stay in-country. He is a very, very popular player there. If he struggled here, he could be sold back to Japan. I have no doubt that he would be welcomed back with open arms.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 7, 2007 2:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

San Deigo
Good point about "selling" him back to Japan if he struggles here. I never thought about that possibility.

by Tangled Up In Blue on Dec 7, 2007 2:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You realize that the last paragraph here...
is (a) MUCH different than the hypothetical you posed later, and (b) suggests that the fans have some sort of impact on Hendry's decision-making, right?

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pearl Harbor Comment, no apology/explanation??????
Al, we are still waiting for the apology/explanation in regards to your off hand remark about Pearl Harbor.  Erasing your comment and erasing the post that followed was the right thing to do, but to do it with no explanation, quite cowardly.  

by becauseicare on Dec 7, 2007 1:01 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Yes, what was written?
I missed it too.
Our grandparents used to say, "I hope the Cubs win the Series before I die". Now the teenagers are saying it.

by blackhawk24 on Dec 7, 2007 1:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I misspoke.
There was a Pearl Harbor remark made about Fukudome the other day. I was trying to avoid having similar remarks made today, and I posted something I shouldn't have. It was up for about ten minutes, it's gone now, I apologized to the writer of the post, and since that was done, I really see no need to bring it up again.

I was wrong. I fixed it. It's over. Move on.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 7, 2007 1:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh cmon...
he did his best to explain that it was a poor attempt at humor and then erased the comment.

What is it you are looking for?

Shall he pay reparations or something?

I believed his explanation and he seemed to recognize that it was not funny/appropriate.

I think we are about to make this more than it has to be.

MMMMM...Golden shrimp and chicken combo from Ron of Japan!

by Kinky Reggae on Dec 7, 2007 1:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you.
I have said all I am going to say about this.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 7, 2007 1:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually Al,
I thought it was someone else who said it but it is done as far as I am concerned.
MMMMM...Golden shrimp and chicken combo from Ron of Japan!

by Kinky Reggae on Dec 7, 2007 2:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The BIG NAME
Hendry signings/trades 2004-2007 really are Nomar, Lilly, Maddux, and Soriano, imo - if you are not including the re-signing of A-Ram and Z.

The complimentary FA pieces such as JJ, Marquis, DeRo, Ward, all have merit, but of the four above Nomar is the only one to really disappoint - but it was due to injuries. Soriano was about what was expected, except for the absence of base-running expertise - which was also due to injuries.

But I will NEVER give him a PASS for the following: Glendon Rusch, pt.2, Trachsel trade, "Holly", John Mabry, Jody Gerut (sorry, Al), Juan Pierre, Ben Grieve, Enrique Wilson, et. al.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:03 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Does Wood not count?
Hendry was the one who signed Wood to that extension.  It was a pretty big signing at the time.

And I think we're getting into a gray area on the "getting a pass" debate.  Who is giving the passes?  The fans?  Those are irrelevant, and I guarantee you there's no collective agreement among them.  The media?  Also irrelevant, and those folks only care about the past so much as how it supports their loudly stated argument du jour.

Ultimately, the only "pass" that matters to Hendry is the one given (or not given) by his bosses.  And that pass will almost assuredly be based solely on results.  If we win, he has a chance to keep his job.  If we don't win, he's likely to be fired.  The signing of Fukudome will only matter as to how much his addition helps in the Cubs being successful on the field.  If he plays great and the team fails, Hendry will likely be fired.  If he plays terribly but the team wins the world series, Hendry may very well be retained.

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoops.
Because he was gone, more than not, I forgot him!

Indeed, he DID sign him to the $MM extension whereupon his arm fell-off...

That would fall under "injuries"?

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup...
and personally I'd give him a pass personally on that one.  But again, my opinion is irrelevant, because I have no say in what decisions he makes and no say in whether or not he's fired.  My free pass isn't worth the time it took to write it. :)

by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

HA HA!
True...
Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, at the time
I don't think so.

Not compared to the above, ORIGINALLY.

His first year w/the Cubs was MVP-like...

It was then he became an elite player.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't sign Taguchi
I couldn't handle Ron Santo giggling in the booth every day he played.  

(Actually, if you have to get a Japanese player to be Fukudome's roommate, at least he'd come cheap and can play some defense.)

The artist formerly known as JoshinLA

by Josh77 on Dec 7, 2007 2:08 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

What if its in the contract
"Team agrees to have a second Japanese player on the roster at all times."

So Taguchi?

So cheap?

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Depending on the timing
of the sale, it is possible that JH could be GM for one more year, to help transition.
Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:18 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

K-FUK Comin' to the STATES!
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7537414

COME ON JIMBO!!!!!

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:32 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I know what you mean...
... when you say "COME ON JIMBO!!!!!"

But really, do you think Hendry hasn't already been doing everything he possibly can to make this signing happen?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Dec 7, 2007 2:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Al - My opinion
is ALL of his eggs are in this basket.

You are so right.

It puts the club on the Asian Map - its more than just "signing a player".

As I've opined, if the money is close, I'd have my money on him picking SD without question.

Hopefully, he's just blown everyone out of the water again.

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

5AM in Tokyo
Maybe Mike Cameron accepts arbitration?

Please, please, please...

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 3:01 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Smooth Jazz Man
Keep us posted with any Mike Cameron stuff you may hear.

If he accepts arb., I would think Towers would be more reluctant to up the K-FUK offer much more.

Perhaps Kenny Williams is the mystery bidder?

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 4:10 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I've been a Cub fan for 44 of my 50 years --
"adding a player with fukudome's potential impact allows us as fans to toss aside reason" -- and reason has never entered into it.

by TR on Dec 7, 2007 4:51 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I guess it boils down to what
city Fukudome prefers to play in, San Diego or Chicago. Cubs will offer more $$. Curious to see this decision next week. Sure hope not some other team laying in the weeds offered a better deal, stayed tuned.
 Just seems like this whole process has been kept pretty close to the vest, can't really get a good read on the whole thing.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Dec 7, 2007 8:27 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Kenny Williams is a goof, but...
...he's got this.  And that from 2 years ago is better than this.  
"...the Sox ... may be even more marginal after the Cubs win the 2007 World Series." - Cubbie fan "Joe Alberti" as posted in the White Sox NG on 9/21/2007.

by DrCrawdad on Dec 8, 2007 11:21 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Lemme ask you seriously...
...exactly how long Kenny Williams gets a "pass" or a "get out of being fired free card" for that.

Because the White Sox were a bad team last year. Orlando Cabrerra, Carlos Quentin and Scott Linebrink are nice pickups (although the money to Linebrink is mad money), but the Royals have picked up Jose Guillen (also stupid money), and are looking to be more active. Williams has missed out on most of his big targets so far.

Moreover -- and this is one of the main reasons Miguel Cabrerra is now a Tiger -- the White Sox have an absolutely awful farm system. And it seems to have been going consistantly downward over the past few years.

So, how many more years of mediocre-to-bad baseball does Kenny Williams get until you can start looking at his work as a GM without bringing up the World Series ring? Because his job isn't to wear the LAST championship ring, it's to get you the NEXT one.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Dec 8, 2007 11:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nicely spilled
championship teams are usually a combination of  good baseball decisions and some luck.  With Kenny I don't know what percentage to give each, but he better hope for a whole bunch of luck in 08.

The farm system is going to be his demise, as I believe it may end up being Hendry's when new ownership comes in.  You can have the occasional good year, or two, if you catch lightning in a bottle, but it's almost impossible to sustain success without an above average farm system.

The teams that have success year in and year out, have built a solid orginization with the foundation being their player development capabilities.  Even with some dough to spend, you will suffer more than your share of down years if you don't have that foundation.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Dec 8, 2007 3:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A one year trend...
Kenny Williams is regularly mocked and ridiculed by Cubbie fans here.  In fact Al himself did such leading into the Sox World Championship season, and has done so again (and again).

It's really odd to me that so much bile is spilled on Kenny Williams and the Sox here when very often people comment here that they don't care about the Sox and NEVER comment on them.  

In fact I'd say that Kenny Williams gets more harsh criticism here than Jim Hendry.  Why is that?   Hasn't Hendry had greater resources at his disposal (and used them especially last year) and a supposedly better farm system (at least that's what Cubbie fans have been saying for the few years).  

And with the money Hendry has spent what exactly has Hendry accomplished?

Why attack a GM with a World Championship but give Hendry a "free pass?"  

Kenny Williams assembled a World Championship team that won 99 regular season games in '05 and the next year a team that won 90 games.  (When was the last time a Cubbie GM has done that?)  

Two of the last three years the Sox have been very good.  That's not a pattern of mediocre to bad baseball, I'd say if you want to see a pattern of mediocre to bad baseball look at your team.  

Why have there been at least three discussions here recently about Kenny Williams but yet Hendry escapes similar scrutiny?

Finally, if Ken Williams does indeed have a pattern of mediocre to bad baseball he will lose his job.  Reinsdorf is loyal, probably to a fault, but he will jettison Williams eventually if one year (2007) becomes a trend.

"...the Sox ... may be even more marginal after the Cubs win the 2007 World Series." - Cubbie fan "Joe Alberti" as posted in the White Sox NG on 9/21/2007.

by DrCrawdad on Dec 9, 2007 6:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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