Winter Meetings Aftermath
It is December 7. What that means is: it's still 115 days till Opening Day, which would give Jim Hendry just a little bit more time to acquire more pieces of the ballclub that will take the field on March 31 against the Brewers at Wrigley Field.
Who will be some of those pieces? According to Bruce Miles, Erik Bedard won't be one of them, though the Cubs could wind up dealing for other Orioles, including Brian Roberts, although Gordon Wittenmyer says a Roberts deal is on the back burner. If the Cubs are looking for pitching, though, there's now a rumor -- perhaps unsubstantiated, although it's right here in Dave van Dyck's article -- that the Tigers are thinking about flipping Dontrelle Willis. For the right price, I'd think about it if I were Hendry.
Meanwhile, Mark Prior is still a Cub, but seeing him non-tendered next Wednesday looms as more and more of a possibility, as Bruce Miles writes:
Cubs insiders say they aren't getting any indication Prior's side will go for an option year. The Cubs also say they have no idea when Prior will be able to pitch again.
And Phil Rogers says non-tendering is likely:
Kosuke Fukudome watch: the Cubs are going "hard" after him IF he decides to come to North America, and even though there are reports on our favorite site saying "An answer from Fukudome is expected tonight or tomorrow" (regarding a supposed San Diego Padres offer), it seems to me that this may take longer, and also that Jim Hendry, as the MLBTR link also says, that the Cubs are going to try to blow away any other offer that could be made, at least financially. Dave van Dyck says that Hendry has a backup plan, but doesn't say what it is.
So? I'm talking about this guy. He was released by the Cardinals. Yes, he's almost 38 years old. Still, he hit .290/.350/.368 as a spare-part outfielder last year. Is he worth signing, if for no other reason than to have a Japanese-speaking teammate for Fukudome?
Finally, the wacky statement of the day was made by -- who else, White Sox GM Kenny Williams:
Mm-hmm, Kenny. Sure. Right now, with the Indians still powerful, the Tigers improving, the Twins always seeming to know what they want, and the Royals making noises as if they want to at least attempt to contend, the White Sox look like a last-place team in the AL Central.
0 recs |
132 comments
Comments
THANK YOU!!!
by Damen Jackson on Dec 7, 2007 8:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Correction Al
by number1cubfan on Dec 7, 2007 8:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't care if the Cubs' GM said
by TR on Dec 7, 2007 9:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I realize your joking but I would care...
I just wish I knew why Sox fans blindly follow and listen to this guys crap.
by slocs55 on Dec 7, 2007 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A couple of things
Second, KW is off his rocker. I really believe he thinks he's the star of the team. Honestly, I wouldn't be at all suprised if he's included in some of the action shots that are commonly used as promotions. I could see billboards all over Chicagoland advertising the Sox with pictures of Konerko swinging, Buehrle throwing a pitch, and KW sitting behind a desk (pen in hand) signing a contract. If he really believe what he said, the White Sox as an organization are in real trouble.
by NO100 on Dec 7, 2007 9:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
What's he smoking?
by Hugest Canadian Cubs Fan on Dec 7, 2007 9:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
white sox
This is straight from the White Sox website and if I were a fan of their team I would be pissed. "Drawing the ire of critics, GM Ken Williams didn't pull off any blockbuster moves at the Winter Meetings in Nashville. Instead, he made shrewd moves to acquire Scott Linebrink and Carlos Quentin, which should put the White Sox in contention in the AL Central."
I understand there is a ton of time left in the off-season to improve your team but don't act like these moves are sufficient to compete in toughest division in baseball according to every White Sox.
by slocs55 on Dec 7, 2007 9:28 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Danny Mac sounded like a complete FOOL
McNeil literally sounded baseball retarded as his former friend and colleague Terry Boras would say...
by TheBeerBaron on Dec 7, 2007 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Boars should = Boers
by TheBeerBaron on Dec 7, 2007 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, I'll Bite...
Personally, I think he might be a good fit for us. 200+ innings, a good BB/K ratio, and makes every start. He's a definite upgrade over Marquis, and while he's not the superstar he was once projected to be, I think he'd fit nice as a middle of the rotation guy. Not having to be "the ace" may take a little pressure off, plus staying in the NL will help him far more than being stuck in the AL Central.
Any takers?
by HectorVillanueva on Dec 7, 2007 9:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Right there w/ you
by Jayo525 on Dec 7, 2007 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Marquis sucks.
Marshall has never lasted a full season.
Meanwhile, the Tigers emptied out their system to land the biggest trade of probably the last decade.
And you think they're going to go around and turn Willis to us for what could be charitably called our scraps? Puh-lease.
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I assumed
I think he'd fit nicely in our plans - an upgrade over Marquis at the same dollar amount. Now, obviously he would cost us in trade, but he'll come far cheaper than Bedard (not nearly as good, I know). What would the Tigers want? What are their needs?
by HectorVillanueva on Dec 7, 2007 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I specifically was replying...
In general -- the Tigers have an absolutely stacked lineup; I can't see what we'd offer them as far as position players go. So they'd want pitching. I think Marmol sounds about right, and there's no way I'd want to do that. So I say stay out of that particular conversation.
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Detroit did empty out thier farm system
by NO100 on Dec 7, 2007 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Generally speaking...
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, the Tigers wouldn't accept
Only pitchers on the market that we should be interested in are Bedard & Haren -- if we even have enough to get those 2.
by Unique on Dec 7, 2007 10:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tigers need youth
And I don't think we have the prospects or attractive ML contracts to acquire EITHER of Bedard or Haren, let alone both...
by 26.2cubfan on Dec 7, 2007 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't mean
by Unique on Dec 7, 2007 11:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
by Jayo525 on Dec 7, 2007 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No Taguchi.
by buckmulligan on Dec 7, 2007 9:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I still say Raul Ibanez
Nice OBP, power, lefty, hits for average, hits with RISP, average fielder (according to the league), and certainly "affordable" in a trade.
Fast? - sigh - faster than Daryl Ward. But then so am I.
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 9:50 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
why isn't Bedard even on the Cubs radar...
This especially if there's a potential mega-trade to be made that would also include Roberts.
I could care less about what happens south of Madison Ave.
by blackhawk24 on Dec 7, 2007 10:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
My guess is that he was discussed
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
On the radio this morning
Again, this is what I heard, not what I think.
by 10 14 23 26 on Dec 7, 2007 10:14 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
if hendry is seriously pursuing all three
by philadelphiacub on Dec 7, 2007 10:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Reply - Figgins...
This is a true longshot. IF you hold your breath on this one, you'll asphixiate yourself.
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
Just sayin'. It's not THAT far out there.
by zambranofan on Dec 7, 2007 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's the ticket
Roberts....Fukudome...Soriano....Lee...Ramirez...Soto....figgins....theirot....
There might be more balance moving Fukudome to the 3rd hole and Soriano to the second or fifth spot with Figgins or pie in the 2-hole. But Lou knows better.
by Ivy Walls on Dec 7, 2007 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Like your signature...
That's the aggressive style I like to hear about Hendry.
MLBTR has now listed the Cubs as 1 of 7 non-AL East teams interested in Bedard.
Wow, he pulls off 3 of these 4, he would be correct; Lou will have a Merry, Merry Christmas!
by blackhawk24 on Dec 7, 2007 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ahhh... but is "21" on deck after that?
by ballhawk on Dec 7, 2007 4:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What evidence do you have of this?
by Al on Dec 7, 2007 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Say no to So!
Thank you.
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 10:21 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Backup Plans?
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 10:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
how's this
by Ga Cub on Dec 7, 2007 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not bad...
by crw89 on Dec 7, 2007 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No way
Kemp is three years younger and has way more upside. I would think the Dodgers would much more willing to part with Ethier. But if they're willing to part with Kemp, I say do what it takes to get him. He's going to be an all-star.
by Josh77 on Dec 7, 2007 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Plan D emerges, too
BUT
Somehow I can't envision him in a Cubs uni.
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 10:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Tokyo Time...
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 10:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Williams
But please, go out and get Juan Pierre.
DmL
by dmlichte on Dec 7, 2007 12:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Wait, seriously?
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
fukudome
Does Hendry get a free pass on a Fukudome signing no matter what happens?
Let's say San Diego has offered 3/21, and Hendry, to blow everyone else out of the water, goes crazy and offers 3/45. Too much money, but it's a done deal, Fukudome will start in RF for the Chicago Cubs. Now, let's say he puts up a stinker. Imagine that he can't hit ML pitching. Opposing pitchers immediately discover that because Fukudome is falling away from the plate on every swing that he simply can't cover the outside of the plate. He adjusts and shortens up his swing to catch up to the superior pitching, and now the competition finds out he can't hit a breaking ball. He plays the whole season, and when he isn't striking out is weakly rolling the ball to second base. Final line for '08: .220/.280/.320.
This goes on for two more years.
Does Hendry get run out of town by an angry pitchfork and torch carrying mob, or does he get a free pass because the outcry for Fukudome is so boisterous, and fans recognize Hendry had no choice but to sign him at all costs? Is it a fact, right now, that not signing him, not beating the best offer is more likely to cost him his job, than the above scenario?
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 12:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
The real answer is...
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
boo
i'll take it to mean that you feel hendry should do whatever it takes to sign fukudome cause it doesn't matter what happens after that.
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know how the truth is a copout.
On the other hand, the new ownership group is likely to dismiss Hendry so that they can bring in their own front office staff, and that's likely to happen regardless of Fukudome's hitting next season.
If the facts aren't germaine to your question, then ask a better question. But don't make baseless accusations.
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 1:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Read this carefully before you comment
What if the Cubs make the playoffs in 2008 and go farther than they did in 2007? That would likely mean Hendry and his staff stay. What the Cubs need, more than a "new" staff, is MORE staff, which most other teams have. New ownership is likely to provide this.
More resources are what's needed. I'm not necessarily defending everything Hendry has done or will do, but don't let your blind hatred of him lead you to the assumption that he'll automatically be replaced the second new ownership comes in.
Further, I'd expect new ownership to retain virtually everyone else. Keep in mind that the Cubs have been a success everywhere but on the field. Why would new ownership want to replace, say, marketing and broadcasting people who have done a good job?
Food for thought.
by Al on Dec 7, 2007 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I did go ahead and say "unless Hendry does...
That said, if he does well enough this year, the world of baseball executives is very insular, and he very likely could find himself new employment in a few years if he puts together a good showing this season. Either way he has no reason to care about the long-term consequences of his actions, so long as he has the feeling that his new masters won't care; gutting the farm system needlessly likely wouldn't reflect well on him, but every GM overcommits on years in free agency, so I don't think that alone would sink his future career prospects.
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 2:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and...
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right about that.
by Al on Dec 7, 2007 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
SHUT UP...I HATE YOU...
:)
by Kinky Reggae on Dec 7, 2007 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Jim Bowden survived the ownership change
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
huh? that's a new one.
your hypothetical scenario falsely presented as facts are not germane to my hypothetical question.
the question is still out there, if hendry knowingly overvalues fukudome, would he be accountable should fukudome turn out to be a bust?
(note: cwyers, you don't have to answer the question if you don't want to... don't want you to feel pressure to post more tangential hypothetical scenarios... i'm not really interested in them... so consider yourself off the hook here.)
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure the question is a good one...
The fans will have thousands of opinions. Some will give him a pass. Some will call for his head. Some will say there are lots of things to consider. But ultimately, their opinions don't really matter. Hendry doesn't make decisions to appease the fans. He makes decisions to try to win ballgames, so that he can keep his job.
The media changes their mind every day. Their job is to sell papers. So whatever provocative opinion they can present is what they're going to write, regardless of the facts. And again, the opinion of the media is irrelevant in Hendry's fate.
The team brass is going to make the decision based on results. If we win, Hendry has a chance to stay on. If we lose, Hendry very likely will get fired. His future in terms of the brass probably has very little (if any) direct link to the success of Fukudome if we get him.
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sorry
the question is good, its great even. I don't get why we are discussing the merits of the question.
Who are you suggesting is giving the pass?
Sorry for the confusion. I'm talking about Hendry receiving a free pass from the fans. So instead of generalizing, you have to look at it from your perspective as a fan.
hypothetical situation:
- hendry knowingly, or even unknowingly overvalues fukudome, and pays him "whatever it takes" to put him in a cubs uniform
- fukudome's a bust, hendry made a mistake, the contract causes more losing. but it is a gigantic enough bust to make it a colossal mistake.
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Replace good with very clear then...
Thus, it's purely a matter of evaluation. If Fukudome does well, Hendry deserves credit for good evaluation. If he does badly, I'd ding Hendry for a poor player evaluation. I don't know if I'd fire him or not, but it'd definitely not be a feather in his cap.
Mind you, I don't personally think Fukudome will hit any better than Matt Murton. So yes, I'd hold it against him for poorly evaluating Fukudome.
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
The overall point is that when evaluating Hendry as a GM, it's most appropriate to evaluate his entire body of work, not just one move.
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
nope
maybe my post right above yours will help clarify. The overall point is NOT "that when evaluating Hendry as a GM, it's most appropriate to evaluate his entire body of work, not just one move"
the overall point (question really) is, and pick any degree you want: if fukudome's a bust, and in my hypotheitcal situation, he's a colossal bust, a flushing 45+ million dollars down the toilet. Is it a strike against hendry, or does is this signing absolved of traditional scrutiny.
more help for you: imagine (and again this is hypothetical) tomorrow hendry trades for will ohman and gives him a 10 year, 100 million dollar extension. would you fire him the next day? Or would you say, ok, that was a lot of money but maybe you know something we don't know, and give him a year, watch ohman post a 22.98 ERA in 75 IP, and then fire hendry?
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
answer for yourself
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pointless question...
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't understand the point
What if Fukudome is a bust but Hendry pulls off some great deal for Roberts and Bedard and the Cubs win the World Series? Then it really doesn't matter to me or probably to most Cub fans. Looking at one single decision and trying to grade Hendry makes no sense.
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
really?
If you think that, then yeah, this wouldn't make any sense.
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You don't know what you are talking about
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 3:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Apples and oranges...
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
bah
We certainly have some idea.
It's not apples and oranges. It is a philosophical endeavor enhanced by looking at extreme cases.
You KNOW that Ohman isn't worth that contract.
We are more comfortable with our assessment that he isn't worth the contract, but it is just a matter of degrees of certainty. Shrink the contract if you are more comfortable with it. instead of 10/100, make it 3/11. Or increase the contract for Fukudome, whatever...
sigh
all of it boils down to: when is it ok to overpay a player?
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It IS apples and oranges...
Conversely, Ohman has spent several years proving he's not worth the contract you suggest. I give a 100% guarantee that Ohman is not worth that contract. I can't say that about Fukudome. So yes, it's apples and oranges.
You keep changing the question and the question still is not an interesting one.
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And again...
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Now THAT'S a question we can answer.
Generally speaking, a marginal win costs $4.4 million through free agency, although this varies based upon how you determine replacement level and such. Since this is a hypothetical thought exercise, we can go ahead and argue that another time -- go ahead and just consider $4.4 million an abstraction if you like.
But not all wins are created equal: take a look at this graph for an idea of how the value of a win changes based on the baseline talent level of the team. (Ignore the specific values; I'm using a different replacement context than BP is here and the chart hasn't been updated for inflation for this offseason.)
Now, that chart is an abstraction for many ballclubs; in the Cubs specific situation (and the Brewers, for that matter) there are division quality issues that change the shape of that curve a bit.
But the basic idea is: you overpay for wins when you're at the top of that curve, i.e., when one win can mean the difference between playing in October and staying home. Certainly the Cubs seem to be in that situation.
Therefore, a marginal win has much more value to the Cubs than a marginal win to the, say, White Sox. So the Cubs are justified in "overpaying" a player relative to ballclubs who are on the wrong part of the curve.
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 3:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, with an addition...
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree
I think he has value, but in a different role than GM.
by MPH73 on Dec 7, 2007 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There are no free passes for GMs...
The media (and fans) have short memories. They'll forget how much "everyone" wanted Fukudome if Fukudome turns out to be a bust. And it doesn't have to be a bust to the nature you suggest. Even if he turns out to be a .750 OPS guy, it'll be a black mark on Hendry.
That's the nature of the business. You're graded on downstream results, not on how well you do the "right" thing at the time.
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
injuries don't count
performance is very much projectable. translating success as a member of the Chunichi Dragons is difficult, which is why this will be an interesting case.
This is the primary job of the GM.
That's the nature of the business. You're graded on downstream results, not on how well you do the "right" thing at the time.
I disagree with this. doing the "right thing at the time" very much correlates to the results downstream. Sometimes you get unlucky (kerry wood, nomar garciapparra, but people don't get fired for that... they get fired for things like giving jack wilson 3/20, or for trading kazmir for zambrano. GMs get fired for not properly valuing their players.
I'm pretty comfortable guessing that from the projections, and the scouting reports the cubs have on fukudome he's not worth more than 3/21. The question is, does hendry gamble, on behalf of the fans who are overly, and to a wild degree, optimistic of what fukudome will bring. And if he does, is he responsible for the decision anymore?
:)
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But he HASN'T gotten a pass on those...
Also, GMs get fired for ANY reason that the team with a relatively big budget doesn't succeed. Some get fired for not valuing their players properly. Some get fired because the players they signed fell apart. Whatever the reason, GMs get fired when their teams don't succeed.
And finally, I'm pretty sure Hendry doesn't make ANY transactions based on what the fans clamor for. He makes decisions based on what he thinks will give him the best chance to win (and thus keep his job). Sometimes, those decisions happen to match what the fans think (Soriano, Fukudome), sometimes they don't (Marquis, DeRosa). But I definitely don't think he makes moves in the interest of appeasing the fans, because the fans won't decide if he's fired or not.
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 1:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
Jim Hendry is very unlikely to make moves to appease either the fan base or the local press corps (by which I mean the Rodgers and Mariottis) precisely because he knows that their memories are short; Jay Mariotti in particular is absolutlely shameless in the "We were always at war with Eurasia" game. Winning solves all problems.
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So
Does Hendry get a huge extension if Fukudome is paid very well and turns out an all star 1st year and then goes on to improve each year till he surpasses Ichiro?
Same type of question isn't it?
Either way, we all know Hendry wants to throw money his way because of how hyped he is. I would guess that if other teams had as glaring a hole in RF and with LH hitters, that they would be in the same position as Hendry.
Therefore, whether KFuk ends up a star or a flop, I think Hendry is going to do what he needs to to pick up what he thinks will fill our holes.
Period.
by Kinky Reggae on Dec 7, 2007 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think your valuation...
That said, you insulate yourself against a lot of that risk by limiting the deal to a three-year commitment. The estimates of his value I've seen generally center around 3/30 or 3/35; the Cubs can probably afford to go over that because the value of a marginal win to the Cubs is higher than the value of a marginal win to a lot of other ballclubs.
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Great question
I don't think it's taking the easy way out to say no matter what Jim does if Fukudome doesn't put up the same or better numbers in a Cubs uniform, Jim will be blamed. Same as if Fukudome plays below expectations or better with another team.
I don't know if there is an answer to the over pay/don't pay question. Interesting topic.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Dec 7, 2007 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
nice post.
despite the posts that say fans don't influence what a GM does, i disagree. I'll grant that the effect is tiny, but team owners are fans, too. And if the cubs have the means to make a puzzle piece fit, fans will be confused and upset if it doesn't happen.
you can justify overpaying for soriano, he fit the cubs nicely. fans got upset, very upset about missing out on furcal. fans were upset with doug melvin for coming up just a few million short on francisco cordero.
the outcry for fukudome, while it may not directly influence hendry's actions, parallels something that is likely going on in the front office. the potential for a huge upgrade with this signing is likely worth more than the projections suggest.
but if fukudome's a bust, well then all that potential is wiped away and the cubs are stuck with a gross contract.
two ways to luck at it... the pockets are deep enough to take those risks, or they are deep enough not to need to take those risks. either way the margin for error here is huge.
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i didn't clarify
the idea here is that the hype is enough that no matter what happens there will be some let down. i'm sure there is some good cliche here that i'm not coming up with...
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It is an interesting topic...
Correct me if I am wrong, Jacob, but I think you're discussing what the "hype machine's" role is in influencing GM decision.
I think as fans we sometimes lose sight of the overall picture. I think I'm safe in saying that the majority of us here at BCB want to see Hendry sign Fukudome. If that doesn't happen, for whatever reason, there will be let down and outcry. Same as if Hendry over pays and Fukudome doesn't pan out and we are tied to a large contract. That's just the nature of being a fan in my opinion. It takes years to see the overall impact of a trade or signing and that's what we sometimes forget. I know I do.
Very interesting. Thanks for posting.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Dec 7, 2007 2:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And I'd say the "hype" machine
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Hendry is not going after Fukudome because the fans want him. He is going after him because he has money to spend and he is available without having to give up a lot. You can argue that he might be too expensive. I might even agree with you but there aren't many options available. To think the fans are driving this decision is wrong.
by rlpete on Dec 7, 2007 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To clarify
The Padres can up the bidding now to make the Cubs overpay knowing that Hendry has targeted Fukudome as his number one priority. At what price does it become a point of diminishing returns as far as contract goes for Hendry?
For the record, I am all for Fukudome playing on the Northside next season.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Dec 7, 2007 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
thanks!
despite getting such an incredibly hard time about all this from a couple posters, and despite the fact that it took me so long to see that's what was going on, i'm glad i asked because this is a great response!
For the record, I am all for Fukudome playing on the Northside next season.
For you, Hendry gets a free pass, if Fukudome is playing at the friendly confines it's a win. There is something special about baseball that is exemplified beautifully in the pursuit of kohsuke fukudome. This (his) potential in and of itself. The excitement of adding a player with fukudome's potential impact allows us as fans to toss aside reason. If I were hendry I'd overpay whatever it took to bring fukudome to the Cubs. I'd toss aside my translations, my projections, my salary charts and sign him. It's almost as much the mystique, the unknown entity, as it is the potential impact.
It's rare you get a shot at such an exciting player that (for 9/10ths of the league) doesn't put the fiscal solvency of the franchise at risk.
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't agree with you more.
This is a great topic and one that I will be bringing up with my friends over a couple of beers later on tonight :)
by Tangled Up In Blue on Dec 7, 2007 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
For the record...
Just saying.
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 5:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yikes, corrections
not margin, potential. "either way the potential for error here is huge."
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well that's just a stupid way...
Look: sometimes teams will sign a bad contact based on the available information, the player will outperform reasonable expectations and it will end up looking like a good deal even though it was irresponsible. On the other hand, sometimes you'll sign a good deal based on the information at hand, and the player will underperform reasonable expectations.
Think of it as a game of poker. There's countless books out there on how to appropriately play Texas Hold-em; using simple math we can figure out the probabilities of winning a hand or drawing the card we need based on the flop and our hole cards, and we can adjust those odds. Certainly the best players can play against those odds if they get a good read on people and come out ahead; and if you do nothing but play the odds it becomes way to easy to get a read on you and you'll get taken to the cleaners. But the odds are what they are.
Now, sometimes a string of bad luck will occur, and even a player who knows the odds and the "intangibles" of the game pretty well will get suckered. That happens. But I'd rather stake that player for the next game than the guy who got lucky, won big and confused that with being skilled at poker. (Kenny Williams, I'm looking at you.)
In my mind, the common dumb mistakes in contract evaluation are:
- Evaluating player contracts based solely on the first year.
- Failing to recognize the effects of luck, good or bad. (About 60% of BABIP is sheer luck, and let nobody confuse you on this point.)
- Confusing performance with true talent level.
- Misunderstanding the marginal value of a win.
I don't need to wait a year to decide if I like Fukudome's contract or not. If I'm wrong about it in a year, I'll admit to it.
But the Fukudome deal won't be a failure if he stinks in the first year, because you have to look at total value of the three years of the contract; that's still three years Fukudome could use to provide value on his contract to the team.
by cwyers on Dec 7, 2007 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
good post.
I don't need to wait a year to decide if I like Fukudome's contract or not. If I'm wrong about it in a year, I'll admit to it.
clearly you understand how all of this works. so...
THE QUESTION: 3/45 for Fukudome. + or - for Hendry?
by jacob on Dec 7, 2007 3:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Completely agree.
I am all for signing Fukudome. I believe his potential value to the Cubs is worth the risk involved. That may have been Jacob's initail post, but we were discussing at what point does overpaying for a player hurt more than help a ballclub.
by Tangled Up In Blue on Dec 7, 2007 3:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And after 20-30 posts on this topic...
by Al on Dec 7, 2007 4:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is a no-lose signing
- FYI, the Padres offer is 3/30.
- Fukudome HAS an offer to stay in-country. He is a very, very popular player there. If he struggled here, he could be sold back to Japan. I have no doubt that he would be welcomed back with open arms.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Dec 7, 2007 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
San Deigo
by Tangled Up In Blue on Dec 7, 2007 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You realize that the last paragraph here...
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pearl Harbor Comment, no apology/explanation??????
by becauseicare on Dec 7, 2007 1:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yes, what was written?
by blackhawk24 on Dec 7, 2007 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I misspoke.
I was wrong. I fixed it. It's over. Move on.
by Al on Dec 7, 2007 1:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh cmon...
What is it you are looking for?
Shall he pay reparations or something?
I believed his explanation and he seemed to recognize that it was not funny/appropriate.
I think we are about to make this more than it has to be.
by Kinky Reggae on Dec 7, 2007 1:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you.
by Al on Dec 7, 2007 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually Al,
by Kinky Reggae on Dec 7, 2007 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The BIG NAME
The complimentary FA pieces such as JJ, Marquis, DeRo, Ward, all have merit, but of the four above Nomar is the only one to really disappoint - but it was due to injuries. Soriano was about what was expected, except for the absence of base-running expertise - which was also due to injuries.
But I will NEVER give him a PASS for the following: Glendon Rusch, pt.2, Trachsel trade, "Holly", John Mabry, Jody Gerut (sorry, Al), Juan Pierre, Ben Grieve, Enrique Wilson, et. al.
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Does Wood not count?
And I think we're getting into a gray area on the "getting a pass" debate. Who is giving the passes? The fans? Those are irrelevant, and I guarantee you there's no collective agreement among them. The media? Also irrelevant, and those folks only care about the past so much as how it supports their loudly stated argument du jour.
Ultimately, the only "pass" that matters to Hendry is the one given (or not given) by his bosses. And that pass will almost assuredly be based solely on results. If we win, he has a chance to keep his job. If we don't win, he's likely to be fired. The signing of Fukudome will only matter as to how much his addition helps in the Cubs being successful on the field. If he plays great and the team fails, Hendry will likely be fired. If he plays terribly but the team wins the world series, Hendry may very well be retained.
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops.
Indeed, he DID sign him to the $MM extension whereupon his arm fell-off...
That would fall under "injuries"?
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup...
by SouthernCub on Dec 7, 2007 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
HA HA!
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
does the trade for d-lee count for 2004?
by philadelphiacub on Dec 7, 2007 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, at the time
Not compared to the above, ORIGINALLY.
His first year w/the Cubs was MVP-like...
It was then he became an elite player.
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't sign Taguchi
(Actually, if you have to get a Japanese player to be Fukudome's roommate, at least he'd come cheap and can play some defense.)
by Josh77 on Dec 7, 2007 2:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
What if its in the contract
So Taguchi?
So cheap?
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Depending on the timing
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
K-FUK Comin' to the STATES!
COME ON JIMBO!!!!!
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I know what you mean...
But really, do you think Hendry hasn't already been doing everything he possibly can to make this signing happen?
by Al on Dec 7, 2007 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Al - My opinion
You are so right.
It puts the club on the Asian Map - its more than just "signing a player".
As I've opined, if the money is close, I'd have my money on him picking SD without question.
Hopefully, he's just blown everyone out of the water again.
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
5AM in Tokyo
Please, please, please...
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 3:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Smooth Jazz Man
If he accepts arb., I would think Towers would be more reluctant to up the K-FUK offer much more.
Perhaps Kenny Williams is the mystery bidder?
by TheEman on Dec 7, 2007 4:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I've been a Cub fan for 44 of my 50 years --
by TR on Dec 7, 2007 4:51 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I guess it boils down to what
Just seems like this whole process has been kept pretty close to the vest, can't really get a good read on the whole thing.
by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Dec 7, 2007 8:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Kenny Williams is a goof, but...
by DrCrawdad on Dec 8, 2007 11:21 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Lemme ask you seriously...
Because the White Sox were a bad team last year. Orlando Cabrerra, Carlos Quentin and Scott Linebrink are nice pickups (although the money to Linebrink is mad money), but the Royals have picked up Jose Guillen (also stupid money), and are looking to be more active. Williams has missed out on most of his big targets so far.
Moreover -- and this is one of the main reasons Miguel Cabrerra is now a Tiger -- the White Sox have an absolutely awful farm system. And it seems to have been going consistantly downward over the past few years.
So, how many more years of mediocre-to-bad baseball does Kenny Williams get until you can start looking at his work as a GM without bringing up the World Series ring? Because his job isn't to wear the LAST championship ring, it's to get you the NEXT one.
by cwyers on Dec 8, 2007 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nicely spilled
The farm system is going to be his demise, as I believe it may end up being Hendry's when new ownership comes in. You can have the occasional good year, or two, if you catch lightning in a bottle, but it's almost impossible to sustain success without an above average farm system.
The teams that have success year in and year out, have built a solid orginization with the foundation being their player development capabilities. Even with some dough to spend, you will suffer more than your share of down years if you don't have that foundation.
by MPH73 on Dec 8, 2007 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A one year trend...
It's really odd to me that so much bile is spilled on Kenny Williams and the Sox here when very often people comment here that they don't care about the Sox and NEVER comment on them.
In fact I'd say that Kenny Williams gets more harsh criticism here than Jim Hendry. Why is that? Hasn't Hendry had greater resources at his disposal (and used them especially last year) and a supposedly better farm system (at least that's what Cubbie fans have been saying for the few years).
And with the money Hendry has spent what exactly has Hendry accomplished?
Why attack a GM with a World Championship but give Hendry a "free pass?"
Kenny Williams assembled a World Championship team that won 99 regular season games in '05 and the next year a team that won 90 games. (When was the last time a Cubbie GM has done that?)
Two of the last three years the Sox have been very good. That's not a pattern of mediocre to bad baseball, I'd say if you want to see a pattern of mediocre to bad baseball look at your team.
Why have there been at least three discussions here recently about Kenny Williams but yet Hendry escapes similar scrutiny?
Finally, if Ken Williams does indeed have a pattern of mediocre to bad baseball he will lose his job. Reinsdorf is loyal, probably to a fault, but he will jettison Williams eventually if one year (2007) becomes a trend.
by DrCrawdad on Dec 9, 2007 6:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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