Who should bat second?
When looking at the Cubs' 2007 lineup, a few things can be assumed. Alfonso Soriano is going to bat first, and the 3-6 slots will probably be filled by Derrek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Jacque Jones, and Michael Barrett -- in that order. The big question becomes, who is going to bat second, between Soriano and Lee?
There would seem to be four candidates, depending on the left field platoon. Cezar Izturis and Mark DeRosa figure to be everyday players, with Matt Murton and Cliff Floyd sharing the duties in left.
Let me first say that under no circumstance should Izturis bat second. I realize that the face he is a switch hitter makes it very tempting to put him there, but it's no secret that his offensive skills are less than spectactular. While the chance of him putting up a Neifi-ish sub-.300 OBP seems slim, both PECOTA and ZIPS project his OBP to be around .320, and when coupled with the relatively small amount of pop in his bat, makes him a good candidate for the bottom of the order.
DeRosa will probably be a better hitter, but I am still somewhat concerned with his ability to get on base. Remember, that second slot is important, with the heavy hitters coming up next. I honestly think that it was the 2005 Cubs' inability to get their top of the order guys on base for Lee to drive in that cost him the MVP, and it is certain that it cost them runs. It wouldn't upset me to have him in that spot, though, particularly if he's able to make contact and give Soriano a chance to run when he gets on base. ZIPS thinks that his OBP will be comparable to Izturis'; PECTOA says 10-20 points higher. Both projections could very well be wrong. Last year was a career year for DeRosa, but he posted .296/.357/.456 line: if he can repeat those numbers, he will be more than acceptable at second base, and batting second.
The option I favor is having Matt Murton bat second, something that I haven't made much of a secret of over the last year. His .297/.365/.444 line from last season is very close to DeRosa's numbers, except that Murton has been hitting like this his entire professional career. His numbers have come down in the majors with increased competition, but he defied the fluke-cryers last year with a very solid season. People question whether he will ever develop real power (13 HR in 508 ABs last year), but batting in the two hole, he's not going to be looking to drive a ton of runners home anyway. His batting stats are likely to rise even higher with the dangerous baserunner Soriano in front of him and a healthy Derrek Lee waiting on deck. Le's patience and ability to get on base are the marks of a good hitter, and a guy who could wind up scoring a lot of runs for the 2007 Cubs. For what it's worth, PECOTA and ZIPS see almost the exact same batting stats for Murton as 2006.
And yes, I do realize that I have a level of man-love for Murton. Deal with it.
The question then is what to do when Floyd is in the lineup? He doesn't run very well, but his bat works fine. He has more power than Murton, and while he doesn't have the long-term upside, he's probably about as valuable a player as Murton is, except he's a left-handed batter. A platoon here makes a ton of sense, because Murton hits lefties significantly better than righties (OPS of .870 versus .782 in 2006). Floyd's advantage over righties is even higher: in 2005 (his last healthy season) he posted an OPS of .915 against them, as opposed to .710 against left handers. I would make the argument that the Cubs' best option against right handed starters would have Jacque Jones (.303/.358/.528 against RHP in 2006) moved into the #2 slot and Floyd batting fifth behind Ramirez. Floyd is likely to sit out some games against righties, in which case Murton is probably better suited for the second spot in the order than Jones. Frankly, I think that it would be fine to have Murton and Floyd split time against righties, and have Floyd available off the bench .
In summation, I would favor the following starting lineups:
Vs. RHP, with Floyd in LF:
Soriano
Jones
Lee
Ramirez
Floyd
Barrett
DeRosa
Izturis
With Murton in LF:
Soriano
Murton
Lee
Ramirez
Jones
Barrett
DeRosa
Izturis
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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61 comments
Comments
Murton!
but it's no secret that his offensive skills are less than spectactular
With Izturis, that's the understatement of the year!
by secdelahc on Feb 10, 2007 11:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
He should be better this year
I am particularly interested to see if Soriano will start exhibiting more patience at the plate. If he's able to, his power and speed could very well make him worth his contract.
by gjdow on Feb 10, 2007 11:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Barrett
DmL
by dmlichte on Feb 10, 2007 11:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You're completely right
I still think he's most likely to bat sixth, but his .307/.368/.517 line from last year would look great in front of Lee. It may also be worth moving him up to fifth behind Ramirez against left handed pitching.
by gjdow on Feb 10, 2007 11:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
For me...
I think Murton's speed is underrated. Not that he's a speed demon, but for next year, especially sharing time with Floyd (however much it is), I personally think he'd be much better on the basepaths than Barrett.
All that being said however, it would be interesting how much, if it all (and the 'stats guys' can say), putting Barrett in the two-hole would help his stats.
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2007 1:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
izturis
Soriano
Derosa
Ramirez
Lee
Jones
Barrett
Izturis
Murton/Floyd
With Barrett and Lee in the 4 and 6 spots to protect the more free swinging Ramirez and Jones
by roach on Feb 10, 2007 11:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Izturis won't be an "easy out"
But I also take issue with the idea that Murton and Floyd would be better suited batting eighth, between Iztruis and the pitcher. They'd never see any good pitches. Floyd in particular would be pitched around due to his power. Even if they drew walks, they wouldn't find much success on the basepaths with the pitcher up next, especially with two outs.
Much better to bat both of them earlier in the order where their offensive talents can help score some more runs.
by gjdow on Feb 10, 2007 11:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't Forget our Hitting Pitchers
by Luigi on Feb 11, 2007 8:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like three of those spots...
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2007 1:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Murton's batting second,
Here is, in my opinion, "the best" lineup for the Cubs, an order that may not appear until the start of the 2008 season:
- Pie (RF)
- Murton (LF)
- Lee (1B)
- Ramirez (3B)
- Soriano (CF)
- Barrett (C)
- DeRosa (2B)
- Izturis (SS)
by neonverse1 on Feb 11, 2007 12:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
If that lineup
by Laven on Feb 11, 2007 12:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i am hoping for the same thing
by kylejo on Feb 11, 2007 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pie's not really a leadoff guy
by Perkins on Feb 11, 2007 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn't......
by santo for prez on Feb 11, 2007 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True, but
by Perkins on Feb 11, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True..
by santo for prez on Feb 11, 2007 5:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Was waiting for someone to respond...
by cubsfan2883 on Feb 11, 2007 10:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Theres a reason we got hi for Maddux eh?
I don't mind having one of these guys in the lineup. If he'd be a bit more like David Eckstein I'd be even happier. with the bat anyway he's arleady a better fielder.
but if he puts up Eckstien numbers and fieleds well I wouldn't mind having him around .
by cubsfan2883 on Feb 12, 2007 12:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
what exactly are you saying?
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 12, 2007 7:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cesar Izturis will surprise us in 2007
by cubsfan2883 on Feb 12, 2007 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He damn well better
by Perkins on Feb 12, 2007 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jones in the 2 hole vs RHPs?
Id rather see Barrett and Murton be your number 2 as well.
Having either one of those guys in the 2 spot forces the pitcher to go right after either of them, thus opening up Soriano to more steals.
And either one of them will be able to knock in Soriano in on a consistant basis given Soriano's speed.
I think what has really hurt the Cubs offensively is the lack of early inning runs, I remember in the 2003 playoffs they almost always scored runs early and having Soriano #1 and either Barrett or Murton 2nd will open the door for more early inning run production.
by Galvan316 on Feb 11, 2007 12:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
jones
by CubsBall2202 on Feb 11, 2007 1:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is a real simple question.
However, given baseball people's tendency to go "by the book" (and it's a crappy book), Mark DeRosa likely will bat second.
I don't see Floyd platooning with Murton. He's a backup (unless Jones is traded).
by Al on Feb 11, 2007 4:22 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
"the book"
by JohnM on Feb 11, 2007 4:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Healthy...
And Piniella has already gone on record as saying Murton's starting.
The only conclusion we can draw from this is that Jacque Jones is likely going to be traded during spring training, if:
- they can find a taker, and
- they can get a decent return.
by Al on Feb 11, 2007 5:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We were told last year
by secdelahc on Feb 11, 2007 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
very different management.
by Al on Feb 11, 2007 5:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My kool-aid
by secdelahc on Feb 11, 2007 9:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see a true platoon
I think that it would be best for the team if Murton got the majority of the starts -- say all against LHP and about half against RHP. Floyd would get the rest. This would make the Cubs a bigger offensive threat, while at the same time giving Murton more looks against righties. He's only going to get better at the plate.
I also expect Floyd to be the first pinch hitter off the bench against righties.
by gjdow on Feb 11, 2007 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
murton
by NOMAR on Feb 11, 2007 6:19 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Batting order
And for the record, I'd rather see Theriot start than Izturis or DeRosa. Theriot's approach and hustle impressed me last year and I have yet to see anything impressive about DeRosa or Izturis. I hope they prove me wrong.
by Rev Gunia on Feb 11, 2007 7:04 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
murton
by deadcatbounce on Feb 11, 2007 7:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
If Dusty were still here...
(please somebody laugh at that)
But anyway, I like Murton in the two slot. He's a solid, patient hitter that can get on base. But I've always been partial to having Michael Barrett batting second. I'm not really sure why, but it seems that he's more productive batting second. tyger1147 does make a good point about Barrett's speed though, so if that ever happens, it won't be a common thing.
by Keith on Feb 11, 2007 7:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Only Neifi
by 08Cubs on Feb 11, 2007 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Murton
by MHef08 on Feb 11, 2007 11:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree about Murton
by Perkins on Feb 11, 2007 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good idea about DeRosa
Against LHP, the lineup could look like this:
Soriano
Murton
Lee
Ramirez
Barrett
DeRosa
Theriot
Izturis
Yeah, it's heavily slanted towards right handed hitters, but with Jones and Floyd both available off the bench, that shouldn't cause too many problems in relief.
by gjdow on Feb 11, 2007 5:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Derosa
by Galvan316 on Feb 11, 2007 12:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don't agree with this.
They are in the position, IMO, where they HAVE to play a younger, homegrown guy (Theriot) if he's 'clearly' the better player.
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2007 7:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just remember that Sample Size is key
Player B: 134 AB 53 GP .328/.412/.522 (BA/OBA/SLG)
Guess who player A is... a much maligned Cub figure now.
Guess who player B is...
by cubsfan2883 on Feb 11, 2007 9:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
how about
B: Ryan Theriot
B's obp is 90 points higher than his BA though while A's is just 56. Also if you look at contact ratio, and if player B is Theriot and A is Cedeno I garauntee there is a vast difference, I know Theriots was about 87% contact rate, Im interested to look up Cedenos.
by kylejo on Feb 11, 2007 9:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
nope im completely wrong
Theriot 2006: 87% contact, 11% walk
Cedeno 2005: 86% contact, 6% walk
Just for comparison sake in 2006 Cedeno dropped to 80% and the walk rate went to an unbelievable 3%.
Ronny probably isnt as bad as he was last year because he had to be pressing way too much to walk that little. The fact that Theriot meets the requirements some set for a true .300 hitter this year though is encouraging and even in the small sample size you can see how Cedenos avg. was bound to drop as he just doesnt walk enough.
by kylejo on Feb 11, 2007 10:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed, but that was not the problem
by cubsfan2883 on Feb 11, 2007 10:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
true
by kylejo on Feb 11, 2007 10:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think none of this will happen...speculation
There are two big FA's out there in that area the Cubs need; RF or SS
My choice is Ichiro whom the Mariners are going to shop each day ST goes right through July. Talk has stated that the Mariners might be interested in Jones, Gallagher and PTBNL. (This could be Murton or possibly two minor league prospects possibly Patterson & Marshall, but not Pie).
What would Ichiro do but make the Cubs the best offensive team in baseball. In that scenerio Floyd is the starting LF'er but DeRosa becomes the defensive replacement in LF or platoons against RHP'ers
The other player available is AROD who will seek to option out of his contract and be a FA next year. The cost might be more in players and $$.
The other given is not, but I could see DeRosa platooning either in the OF or at SS
(unless Cubs acquire AROD) because I think Theriot will earn a starting spot at 2B.
Because of Theriot's emergence he will be the lead off hitter allowing the Cubs to move Soriano down to #3 spot allowing Ramirez to be the clean up and Lee the #5 hitter.
Any case this is premature until the roster is set.
by Ivy Walls on Feb 11, 2007 3:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
just wondering
by kylejo on Feb 11, 2007 4:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would say either...
I am not convinced that Derosa is a starter, so if the Cubs are willing to hitch their wagon to him then I'd offer Theriot as an alternative. Derosa's a proven sub., versatile player but I'd like to see them give Theriot playing time as well. Oh, and our SS can't hit or get on base so maybe Theriot can get some more ABs playing both 2B and SS?
by DudeVf11 on Feb 11, 2007 4:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Will Ohman...
UZI
by Ozgreeder on Feb 11, 2007 9:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Murton
by cubbiejulie on Feb 12, 2007 12:12 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Are you up working hard like me?
Back to my work...
by sparkles721 on Feb 12, 2007 12:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No
by cubbiejulie on Feb 12, 2007 12:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Another thing to consider
I don't know if that makes sense. But what I'm trying to say it that considering Soriano's power it would be nice to have some guys on base in front of him when he comes up to bat. The only problem with this is that the pitcher spot usually is an automatic out and if some one ws on in front of the pitcher spot it could lead to alot of DP's.
I know this type of line up construction is unconventional, and I'll probably get flamed for it, but what do you guys think about:
1)Soriano
2)Derosa, Theriot
3)Lee
4)Ramirez
5)Murton
6)Izturis
7)Barrett
8)Jones
9)Pitcher
The pitcher spot is what really messes up this order. But there could be the potential for guys on base for Soriano.
by amaru on Feb 12, 2007 12:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Miguel Cabrera
by Laven on Feb 13, 2007 12:01 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

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