Most Overrated and Underrated Cubs

by frustratedfan on Feb 19, 2007 10:51 AM CST Comment 61 comments

We have just concluded a rather interesting series on one very smart Cub fan's take on the top 100 Cubs of all time. Well written and well supported. That being said, often fans will overrate a popular player and underrate a very good player who is either quiet or is an outgoing and clear jerk. With that being said, perhaps it is time to look at the most overrated and underrated Cubs of all time.

I'll provide my justifications in a subsequent post, but my nominee for the most overrated Cub of all time is Ernie Banks and my nominee for the most underrated Cub of all time is Gabby Hartnett.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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I agree:

Overrated: Ernie Banks

Underrated: Billy Williams/Fergie Jenkins

HENDRY!

by cubbiejulie on Feb 19, 2007 11:05 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Them's fightin' words...

to some people but not me. Banks is overrated. Jenkins is very much underrated.

UZI

"I don't do drugs. I am drugs." - Salvador Dali

by Ozgreeder on Feb 19, 2007 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Overrated?

And it pains me to say this, because he is a guy I grew up with, but Rick Sutcliffe. Untouchable in '84, great in '87, good in '89. Other than that, the only consistent thing about him was his inconsistency. And being very prone to injury. Almost a two-time Cy Young winner, played in a few All-Star games, and for all intents and purposes, a great clubhouse guy. But a consistently great pitcher? No.

As far as Jenkins goes, it's hard to say he is underrated when he is a Hall of Famer, but when people talk about great pitchers of the 1960's (best pitchers' era since the Dead Ball era), Jenkins' name does not come up as quickly as Koufax, Gibson, Drysdale, Seaver, etc. Most likely--and here we go with this again--because he never played in the postseason.

And with Banks, he is simply a guy with two careers. Nothing at all overrated about 1954-1961. Those numbers speak for themselves. Post-1962, I think the home runs, RBIs, and sunshine personality overshadowed the low batting averages. I honestly never realized that in all his years with the Cubs, he only had two .300 seasons. That is surprising.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Feb 19, 2007 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

On Banks...

Part of me wonders if the reason folks look at Banks as overrated is in part because of when he was fading. His greatest exposure came at a time when he was declining in his skills. It is easy to look at him in the context of the late 60's and note that he was certainly not the best on the team, probably not even in the top 4.

However, you can't neglect what he did in the 50's. The man, to this day, ranks as among the all time great offensive SS. If you compare his #s to Jeter, ARod, Nomar, Ripken, etc. you minimize what he did. SS in the 1950's simply didn't hit like that. Also, he was doing those things on bad teams, that means no lineup protection, etc.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Feb 19, 2007 1:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Overrated/underrated...

...in terms of Al's list, or just people's perceptions in general? And based on what criteria?

I support Julie! :)

by gravedigger on Feb 19, 2007 11:14 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm

Overrated: I want to say Ernie but I'll go with Sandberg. Great player but not all-world.

Underrated: I'm going with Grace. Not just for on the field accomplishments but his attitude and personality.

Go Jules Go! Show 'em whatcha know!

by cubbieboy on Feb 19, 2007 11:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Not to mention his looks

n/t

HENDRY!

by cubbiejulie on Feb 19, 2007 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sandberg

I have never heard anyone describe Sandberg as "all-world". I think he is usually described exactly the way you described him: a great player. That's why he is in the Hall of Fame.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Feb 19, 2007 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Overrated Mark Grace

Especially since I cannot stand his broadcasting.

Underrated: Jenkins

by cubsfan2883 on Feb 19, 2007 11:19 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Dude

you wanna take this outside??

Go Jules Go! Show 'em whatcha know!

by cubbieboy on Feb 19, 2007 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Over/Under

Totally agree with frustratedfan, especially about Gabby being underrated. I say he's one of the top 5 catchers all-time, but who outside of Cubsfandom knows him? Who inside of Cubfansdom talks about him all that much?

AUGIE OJEDA!

by Troop EY on Feb 19, 2007 11:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Overrated...

Ryno, Grace, Banks.

Underrated... as my sister used to call him: Willy Billiams!!

PERRY!!!!

by Goat Whisperer on Feb 19, 2007 11:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

over/under

over: moises alou

under: mark grudzielanek

by CubsBall2202 on Feb 19, 2007 11:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Over: Neifi Perez
Under: Todd Walker

HENDRY!

by cubbiejulie on Feb 19, 2007 11:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Agree.

I support Julie! :)

by gravedigger on Feb 19, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Neifi...

... was overrated by one person only: Dusty Baker. I think the rest of us knew exactly what he was.

I Support Julie!

by Al on Feb 19, 2007 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

me go now

over: Sosa
Under: Sosa

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Feb 19, 2007 12:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Very interesting.

I support Julie! :)

by gravedigger on Feb 19, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

think about it

he's one of the few baseball players who finds himself overrated in some circles, and underrated in others.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Feb 19, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, makes sense

And I agree.

I support Julie! :)

by gravedigger on Feb 19, 2007 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What circles

respectively?

GREAT SUCCESS!!!

by Chitown Mojo on Feb 19, 2007 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OK

By Al's list:

Overrated--Frank Chance. His career wasn't very long and at least some of the credit for putting together that team rightly belongs to Frank Selee.

Underrated--Besides Billy Williams, who others have mentioned, underrated is:

Johnny Evers. Evers was a better player than Chance with a longer career. He was a pretty brilliant baseball man himself, as from all accounts he was the driving force behind the "Merkle Boner" that won the 1908 pennant. Secondly, It's not a coincidence that when Evers moved to Boston in 1914, they were the "Miracle Braves" that won the pennant again. He was the league MVP in his last season as a regular then.

After Mordecai Brown, the second-best player on the 1908 Cubs wasn't Frank Chance, who got all the attention as the manager, but rather Johnny Evers.

Time for a baseball-related sig line

by Josh77 on Feb 19, 2007 12:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Who is this...

Billy Williams that you speak of?

UZI

"I don't do drugs. I am drugs." - Salvador Dali

by Ozgreeder on Feb 19, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

he's talking about Billy Dee Williams

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Feb 19, 2007 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Take that back

Lando is not overrated!

PAGAN!

by Jesse Guam on Feb 19, 2007 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

please, girlfriend

he couldn't even hold on to the Millenium Falcon for 10 minutes before losing it to a bum like Han Solo.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Feb 19, 2007 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Han is no bum.........

n/t.

RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Feb 19, 2007 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

I wasn't quite sure how to respond to that--the attack on Han, the attack on Lando or Thelonius calling me "girlfriend". That last one was a little weird.

PAGAN!

by Jesse Guam on Feb 19, 2007 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's because

I'm currently watching "southpark is gay" on my computer, regarding metrosexuality.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Feb 19, 2007 3:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Under/over

Based on these rankings, I'd say Jose Cardenal very underrated for how he played and performed in 70s/80s for bad teams...at time, he was hugely popular, but time and not being on a winning team or anywhere near one really has hurt his reputation.

Pitchers: Holtzman and Trout, because of the historic lack of reliable lefties. They were quite good for their time with Cubs.

Overrated (pains me to say it and will incur some wrath): Santo. He just did not perform in the clutch, which has to count for something. It's well documented. A leader has to lead when it matters most. Probably one of reasons keeping him out of HOF. I applaud his charitable work and standing up to diabetes during his career/life. This has nothing to do with that, but his image and radio work--which is debatable---inflated his status with fans.

by writerinwrigley on Feb 19, 2007 12:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Clutch stats?

Do you have any stats to back up your assertion?

This isn't just aimed at you, but more broadly. Folks in the Sosa postings discussed him as overratted because "You wouldn't want him batting in the clutch"

If I am correct, Sosa has the all time record for game ending and extra inning home runs by a Cub.

It seems to me that critiques such as this are often unfounded, and based upon a single season (when perhaps exhaustion or injury could be to blame) or off of a particular bad memory... I remember when Mighty Casey struck out... Bum...

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Feb 19, 2007 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sosa's record...

... is likely because he also hit more HR as a Cub than anyone else.

I Support Julie!

by Al on Feb 19, 2007 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, but he was one of the best "clutch"

hitters in the game for a long time. I guess people just remember all the Ks and come to the conclusion that he was a choker, but that's simply not true. Same for Santo. He was not unclutch; in fact, he hit worse with nobody on than any other situation. His stats really bulk up with RISP and all that.

by VS on Feb 19, 2007 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Curious VS...

We often hear that there is no such as "clutch-hitting"--that it's too small of a sample size to have any real value. I have come to agree with this to a point: that in acquiring a player with a less than stellar overall statistical line and less than at least a few years of full-time duty, it would not make sense to look at a good "clutch-hitting" line and think he's the type of player you want.

But what about at the end of the career? Is it fair to look back on someone's career that lasted 12, 15 years and claim that he was/was not clutch? (I'm guessing the answer from your comment to which I'm replying, but was wondering if you could elaborate.)

by tyger1147 on Feb 19, 2007 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just don't get him going on this....

by saying that Aramis Ramirez is not a good "clutch" hitter. I found this out the hard way more than once.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Feb 20, 2007 12:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sosa...

..probably also holds the club record for striking out more times than any other player with the tying run or go ahead run on or at bat to end the game. (My english teacher would be so proud of that sentence)

Here's to a new year!!

by santo for prez on Feb 19, 2007 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm an English teacher...

and I'm very proud of that sentence. Very Faulkner of you.

UZI

"I don't do drugs. I am drugs." - Salvador Dali

by Ozgreeder on Feb 20, 2007 7:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you..

...and since I can't give you an apple through the internet. I will just eat it for you:)

Here's to a new year!!

by santo for prez on Feb 20, 2007 5:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Reply

Overrated - Sandberg, Banks,
Underrated - Billy Williams, Riggs Stephenson

Active Cubs

Overrated - Cesar Izturis, Alfonso Soriano, Ryan Dempster (not so much as the other two), Michael Barrett
Underrated - Angel Guzman, Rich Hill (greatly underrated by the media), Michael Barrett, Michael Wuertz (will probably be the best reliever on the team)

I also agree with Thelonious on Sosa.

by VS on Feb 19, 2007 2:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

You and Tyger

I don't think I've ever disagreed with a post that either of you two have made.

I support Julie! :)

by gravedigger on Feb 19, 2007 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Barrett...

... is both overrated AND underrated?

I Support Julie!

by Al on Feb 19, 2007 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just like Sosa

;)

I support Julie! :)

by gravedigger on Feb 19, 2007 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I would say so

He seems two fall into two groups.

Those who believe a catcher has to be good defensively and since Barrett is not good defensively, he's worthless (a bit of hyperbole there, but you get the point).

Those who believe his offense makes up for his poor defense and rank him as one of the best catchers in baseball.

I fall into the latter group. Though recently I've come to realize that his defense may be even worse than I thought. Still, he is easily the best catcher on the team.

by VS on Feb 19, 2007 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He is the best....

.. HITTING catcher on the team. I am one who thinks that his poor defense and mediocre ability to handle the pitching staff hurts him as a catcher.

Henry Blanco is not a very good hitter. But I still believe he is a capable backup. He played quite well in Barrett's stead last year.

I Support Julie!

by Al on Feb 19, 2007 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So you think Blanco is the better catcher?

That's what you're implying by capitalizing HITTER. I don't get why you said that like you did. VS was obviously taking into account both hitting and defense when he said that. Assuredly, I'm reading too much into it, but it seems like you just emphasized one thing he said, but did it in a manner as if you're saying something new and different and and that his hitting isn't good enough to make up for bad defense.

"Catcher" is a position just like any other. Just like any other position, you must take into account both his hitting and his 'fielding' of his position.

If you think it's bad enough to make him the worst overall option between the two, then say so. I'm just confused by your meaning of capitalizing HITTING.

Barrett is the better option at catcher. He's the better catcher. Blanco hasn't done well enough in his career to inspire confidence as a replacement, and his defense isn't that much more important to override that. Michael Barrett is definitely a better catcher than Henry Blanco.

by tyger1147 on Feb 19, 2007 3:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Maddog did an analysis a while back

comparing the two catchers, and concluded that Blanco is actually the more productive catcher when you add his FRAR.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Feb 19, 2007 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cool.

The previous posts were simply a jab at Al. Unfortunately, he didn't react. <sigh>

I am actually unsure of where I fall. I am the opposite of VS. I recently thought that Blanco's glove and game-calling abilities far outweighed his offensive deficiencies, but have since come to think it may not matter as much. If the Cubs were better offensively at say... shortstop, I would be more than happy to have Blanco back there.

As it is, I'm torn.

by tyger1147 on Feb 19, 2007 4:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't react because...

... I missed the reply.

Look, Michael Barrett is a better all around player than Henry Blanco because of his offensive contributions. I think we all agree that given the choice of 120 or so games of Barrett, and 120 or so games of Blanco, we'd all choose Barrett.

But Barrett's poor defensive skills HAVE cost the Cubs games. That's all I've been saying.

I Support Julie!

by Al on Feb 19, 2007 4:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

we wouldn't all choose barrett

If maddog's analysis is correct (and I believe it is) Blanco might actually be the better full time catcher. When you factor in salary, Blanco is even more appealing.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Feb 19, 2007 5:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I would agree..

Two words. Yadier Molina.

Well, sometimes nothin is a real cool hand.

by wicubfan on Feb 19, 2007 5:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

nice sig

I love that line/movie, boss.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Feb 19, 2007 5:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

n/t

Well, sometimes nothin is a real cool hand.

by wicubfan on Feb 19, 2007 5:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not.............

..........on board either, Al, especially when the dollars (as mentioned by Thelonius) are factored into the equasion.

by tville on Feb 19, 2007 6:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I really like Blanco behind the plate.

This is probably an exaggeration, but it seems like Barrett does something once-a-week to blow a game defensively. Honesty compels me to say, I just feel more confident in the starting pitcher when Blanco is catching. No stats to back it up, I'm just saying.

I just feel so much better when I'm drinking beer.

by deadcatbounce on Feb 19, 2007 6:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

BTW

I'm extemely ecstatic you like Wuertz. I've liked Hill and Wuertz both since their second-half callups. I'm really worried about Wuertz getting traded or god-forbid, sent down to make room for Marquis in the "swing" role.

by tyger1147 on Feb 19, 2007 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that would be a shame

He was our best reliever in 2005 (unless you count dempster's 4 months), and our best reliever during the second half of 2006. I've always thought his slider was very lidge-esque (albeit far slower) with the vertical break. He makes up for velocity with one of the most deceptive deliveries on the team.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Feb 19, 2007 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Overrated

I have to put Grace in as slightly overrated. I think the public perception of him as a player was helped by the way he was in a mutual butt kissing society with the media.

And I loved Mark.

Undderrated? That's a toughie but I think on the national level its our very own DLee.

By Cub fans I have to think more on it.

On current roster can I post a vote for Michael Barrett?

2007 THE YEAR OF THE BEAR. Bears didn't quite do it. Cubs to finish job.

by kerrysotherwife on Feb 19, 2007 3:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

At national level...

I think all current Cubs are underrated, except Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, and Alfonso Soriano.

"I don't talk. I just let what I do talk for myself." -Johan Santana

by sparkles721 on Feb 19, 2007 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

On the current team........

My overrated's would be.....Zambrano and Lee

underrated's would be......Ramirez and JJ.

RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Feb 19, 2007 3:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I agree on all four

It seems like once a player establishes himself as a weak glovesman, no amount of performance to the contrary can shake that stigma. Such is the case of Ramirez: he isn't the rangiest 3b, but his hands have gotten considerably softer over the past few years, and he's pretty solid.

Also, I've heard (on more than one occasion) someone from the natinal media mention how much Ramirez strikes out. If they took 2 seconds to look at his stats, they'd know that he actually rarely K's for a power hitter.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Feb 19, 2007 3:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

My First Post....

Daily Reader has opinion..

Overrated: Sosa

Underrated: Maddux

The Cubs never raised their offer past 27.5. Himes said he didn't think it was right to go back to the Tribune and ask for more money after the budget had been "set".

by Payton34 on Feb 19, 2007 8:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs