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Let's Earn Jacque Jones' Respect

OK, I have something I have to get off my chest now that Spring Training is upon us, and Opening Day will be here before we know it.  This is important, because it concerns all of us as members of Cubs Nation, the greatest and most loyal fans in sports history.  And it concerns our right fielder, assuming he breaks camp with the Cubs in 2007.  I don't know how you all feel about this, but I feel very bad about the way Jacque Jones was treated in Chicago last year.  We treated him like garbage, there is simply no other way to describe it.  And when you hear him talk (you don't even have to HEAR him, you can't miss his tone even if you're reading a quote from him), he does not like us.  He does not consider us to be good fans.  And how can you blame him?  We did nothing to earn his respect or admiration.  And that bothers me.

It bothers me because we, as Cubs fans, are better than that.  We're not Philadelphia fans.  All I know is, last year, in spite of all he endured, Jacque hit .285 with 27 HR, 81 RBI, and was one base hit away from a Slugging Pct. of .500.  In short, he did exactly what he was brought here to do, at least offensively.  I know his defense was not good.  His baserunning was horrendous.  And you know what?  He knows that too.  The guy is a pro.  Booing a guy is one thing.  But racial slurs, throwing a ball out of the bleachers and almost hitting the guy, there is no excuse for this kind of stuff.  They may act like that other places, but we don't act like that in Chicago, at least on the North Side.  I might be preaching to the choir here, and I hope I am, but this stuff has to stop this year.  Let's give this guy a break, and accept him as one of our guys, which we should have done from the start.

I truly hope that Jacque Jones is in the Cubs' Opening Day lineup.  When he trots out to right field for the first time, and when he comes to the plate for his first at-bat, we owe him a standing ovation, if for no other reason than as an apology for last year.  Sometimes it sucks to look yourself in the mirror and admit that you screwed up.  Last year, we screwed up, and we need to make it right this year.      

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Exactly
I agree with you completely, and while were at it lets try not to screw up Felix Pie like Patterson

by roach on Feb 20, 2007 2:45 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I agree as well
I am half-black and I normally don't get to riled up with racist comments but what happened to JJ was so insulting it can't be overlooked.

These feelings do exist in today's society and it's also wrong not to recognize that sometimes these these things happen. Those of us on the good side need to drown out the idiots.

Go Jules Go! Show 'em whatcha know!

by cubbieboy on Feb 20, 2007 2:53 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

hear, hear!
I'm occasionally ashamed of my fellow Cub fans, and this is one of the most glaring example that I can remember.

others:
-the treatment of Bartman when anyone in his position would have done the same.
-the beer garden uninformed crowd
-racism directed at Dusty or LaTroy Hawkins

Jones has every right to be pissed at the fans, and want out of chicago. While he is wrong to generalize, if I (as a jew) had to hear antisemitic slurs or suffer balls thrown at my head, I probably would have reacted far more angrily than Jones has. I think he should be commended for not absolutely demanding a trade (although he may have, but he hasn't let this air in the media). We haven't treated him as a welcome  player at all, and he's clearly made every attempt to hold his tongue, and try to put forth his best effort.

All hail Jones. I'm sure he'll drive us crazy with myriad baserunning/fielding mistakes, but right now the price is right, and we're relying, in part, on his bat this year.

Baby, you got a stew goin'

by Thelonious on Feb 20, 2007 3:05 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

On a side note
about a month ago I was re-hashing the Bartman moment and found an interesting article on him.
Los Cachorros!

by Laven on Feb 20, 2007 10:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll say this about Jones.
He was quoted the other day as saying he was well aware of his throwing and baserunning mistakes of a year ago and was going to work hard to correct them.

That same article (and I cannot remember now where I saw this) also said that the throwing problems may have stemmed from a shoulder problem that Jones didn't do anything about. Supposedly the shoulder has healed. We'll see.

I'm not a big fan of Jones and I did say the signing was dumb when it happened. However: NOW, given the exploding marketplace, Jones' contract seems cheap, and he did exactly as he could have been expected to last year. In theory, with a healthy Lee, Ramirez, Soriano and Barrett, Jones is the fifth-best hitter on the team. That's just about where someone like Jones should be, on a good team.

I Support Julie!

by Al on Feb 20, 2007 4:40 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

It was announced in Oct. & an admonishment
I personally like JJ, and liked him from the get go.  I think the angst over him was basically misplaced anger that the Cubs had not replaced Sosa with another star RF.  1986 was the last time we didn't have a "superstar" in RF, and from my perspective, Jones was asked, unfairly, to live up to that expectation.

As for his shoulder, here is a link from October

From my understanding, he has been working out, largely with Mark Prior and his trainer, this offseason on strengthening his shoulder.  To say that he "did nothing about it" is simply silly.  We have seen the pitfalls that come with shoulder surgery with many many pitchers, so for an OF to opt against surgery is absolutely commonsense.  

Of course Jones didn't advertise this during last season, that would only have made things worse.  So, even more, think how that was tearing him up.  Fans ripping him a new one every day, throwing beer, baseballs, and epithets his way at every chance, and he had to endure it.  

I hate to say it, but I largely blame the influence of blogs such as this for JJ's poor treatment.  I honestly believe that this medium for all its wonderful virtue, also has the potential to stir up a witchhunt.  From the day Jones was signed he was persona non grata to Cub fans, and that simply was not fair.  

I am not trying to be overly critical of blogs, including this one.  They are a great way for folks to share thoughts and information, the ultimate power in our society.  But I am also a hute supporter of the free press, and they have done some real doozies in their history as well (the folks who brought us the Spanish American War for one).  I just think that we as bloggers need to be more careful and tempered in what we say.  What we do has implications.  We should be happy about that, but also view it as a responsibility.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Feb 20, 2007 7:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Al can speak for himself
but the way I understood his comment was that JJ didn't do anything about his shoulder during the season.

I don't think that Al was suggesting he didn't work on whatever was wrong during the offseason.

by Scott on Feb 20, 2007 8:13 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you.
That's exactly what I meant. Sorry I wasn't clearer -- I know he's been working hard on it this offseason and the problem appears to be fixed. What I meant was that nothing was done about it during 2006, nor did anyone even know he had a shoulder problem last year.

If Jones has an offensive season like 2006, and he eliminates, or at least reduces, his defensive troubles and baserunning mishaps, he will be a useful player.

I Support Julie!

by Al on Feb 20, 2007 8:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What could he do?
What could he have done during the season?  Would the Cubs have been better off had he taken a month or so off to rehab his shoulder?

Does make you wonder why they didn't at least experiment with him at 1B, but I don't blame Jones for that at all.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Feb 20, 2007 8:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

blame blogs?
A few things:
  1.  Baseball blogs don't make people racist.  Find me a single racist Cubs blog and I'll show you a blog with 5 hits a day.
  2.  Yes, many blogs have a negative tone towards certain individuals, but I would guess that active blog readers make up less than 2% of the ballpark at any given time.  Of the 40,000 in attendance, how many read blogs?  500?  1000?  This site, probably the most popular one out there, might have a few thousand regular readers per day.  And most of them are online and contributing to the game thread, so it's not like we're all there and booing.  We're the diehards, folks.  The diehards with internet access and free time.  Most Cubs fans I know don't read blogs.  Even the diehards.
As for Jones, I'm not a Jones fan.  Throwing arm and baserunning being the primary reasons, swinging at pitches over his head and poor plate discipline being another.  

I don't boo Jones at the ballpark, though, (nor do I send him racist threats or fire baseballs at his head.)  I only boo when a) someone's not giving his best, or b) disrespecting fans or the game (like Todd Hundley).  Jones gives his best, so I save my booing for when I'm home in front of the TV and he throws a 16-bouncer into home plate.

by MikeJ on Feb 20, 2007 10:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Blogs
I am not saying that Blogs such as this one put any racist thoughts in peoples minds.  What I would say is that the intense negativism that surrounded Jones in this and othe blogs went well beyond what should be considered rational.  If you went back and read all the nasty things said about Jones, you would think the man has a daily diet of puppies and babies.  

IMO, there are personal attacks on players on blogs such as this, and further, I believe that such villification eeks out and makes it ok to hate the man.  Unfortunately, for some that leaves only a small step to hurling baseballs and racial epithets at him.

Again, I am not anti-blog.  But, if a blog such as this has any power, which most of us would hope it does, then that power can be both good and bad, and thus, with that power comes responsibility, There have been plenty of examples of irrational anger/hatred directed towards Jones, and that to me is irresponsible.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Feb 20, 2007 10:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe...
that Adam Dunn's diet consists of puppies and babies, however.

UZI

"I don't do drugs. I am drugs." - Salvador Dali

by Ozgreeder on Feb 20, 2007 10:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

JJ Fan Club

Let me be the first to sign up for the JJ Fan Club.  He's not my favorite player, but I think he deserves the biggest standing ovation during the home opener.  I think he has an amazingly positive attitude given the circumstances.  He is the type of guy who could really thrive with some positive support.  I'd be thrilled with a repeat of last years numbers.  

Unfortunately, us Cub fans like new scapegoats.  We gave Moises a tough time his first year (although his crappy attitude never improved, we grew to like him).  D-Lee even suffered through some smatterings of boos his first year.  This year, it sounds like it'll be Marquis.

by Ghost of Fred Merkle on Feb 20, 2007 7:26 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

IDEA!!
We should all buy bouqets of roses and throw them into right field every time he runs out there...for every game.  Sammy would sprint, but Jacque...he gets roses.  Like ice skating!

UZI

"I don't do drugs. I am drugs." - Salvador Dali

by Ozgreeder on Feb 20, 2007 7:28 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Great post
couldn't have said it better myself. I live in FL and from a far was known to be cursing Jacque Jones name

I think his slow start really snow-balled a lot of negative feelings and hopefully everyone in the RF bleachers can make him feel welcomed this year

by DartmouthCubsFan on Feb 20, 2007 7:30 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

The one thing about
JJ he hustles his ass off. I would watch Twin games when they did not conflict with Cub games and he always   busted his tail.
Hell if we could get 25HRs, 80 RBI's and .285ave, with this lineup, far better than last year, come on aboard.
I like JJ, and racist comments is BS no matter who you are directing them to.

Let all Cubs have a good year.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Feb 20, 2007 8:03 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Very true
I was one of those who was very wrong about his signing.  I admitted that and accepted him.  Well, I found other things to bitch about - that team had plenty wrong with it, but Jones wasn't really one of them.

That said, I think the treatment he received from the boobirds at Wrigley last summer was the most embarrassed I've ever been as a Cubs fan.  We discussed that here at BCB and wondered wtf was wrong with our fellow fans, especially those in the bleachers.

"Looking for good signs is a good sign of delusion." - Me

by gravedigger on Feb 20, 2007 8:07 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

are you guys kidding?
As far as I know none of us were those who threw a ball at the guy or yelled racial slurs at him.  I honestly cant believe that happened, and for that I feel sorry for the guy.  However, any critism we have laid on the guy he fully deserved.  Of course fans are going to get on you if you start 0-13, deal with it.  His offense was pretty decent, yeah, a solid #5 hitter, but his season was made absolutely average because of his defense.  We dont need to start Jacque Jones fan clubs or Jacque Jones support clubs, that is ridiculous.  

I hope he is gone from this team by opening day.  Cliff Floyd would be a better option offensively and defensively in right field and that would do multiple good things for this team.

  1.  If we package Jones and Ohman we will get a good return on prospects.
  2.  Matt Murton is assured of 550 at bats.  THIS IS HUGE.
  3.  We will not have to cringe at the thought of Jones in the two-hole as Lou has talked about.  I cant think of a much worse two-hole hitter other than Neifi Perez.
  4.  If Floyd gets hurt Pie can come up in his place.
Jacque, I hope im saying goodbye to you, no offense to you, but I think this team is better off without you.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 8:41 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps...
we could arrange a meeting between you and Jacque.  Kind of hug things out, maybe?  

UZI

"I don't do drugs. I am drugs." - Salvador Dali

by Ozgreeder on Feb 20, 2007 8:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, Floyd...
Give me a flippin break!  YOu would take Floyd as your everyday RF over Jones!!!

Are you NUTS???

I like the Floyd signing.  But the man has not played RF in quite a while, and since then has gotten more and more brittle.  Floyd is a good 4th OF/platoon guy (in LF) at best, and you want him over JOnes in RF?!?  Have you bothered to look at their numbers?  Or have you simply read abunch of blather about Jones sucking?  

If Jones and Ohman are going to bring this bevvy of prospects, don't you think that Hendry would have made the deal earlier!

As for Pie.  I like him, I think he could be good to great.  But the idea of rushing him along so that you can simply get rid of Jones is in a word, moronic.  We saw what happened to our last 5-tool CF when rushed to the big leagues.  I am fine with using prospects as in insurance policy against injury, but with Jones in RF, that is not a quesiton of if he will get hurt, but when.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Feb 20, 2007 8:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

oops
I mean Floyd in RF not Jones.
Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Feb 20, 2007 8:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

oh my goodness
Yes I have seen their statistics, if healthy Floyd is better than Jones.  I dont think many people will argue with that.  We don't know if he is healthy yet and Pie is a fine insurance policy.

Where the hell do you come off comparing him to Corey?  Just because their batting styles are similar and theyre left-handed?  The situations resemble each other in no other ways than that.

Corey had never shown a mastery of one level of baseball other than low A-ball.  He sucked in Double A, he sucked in Triple A--we brought him up.  Pie has shown the ability to play well and adjust to each and every league and promotion he has had.  Give him two months at Triple A and he'll be ready for the big leagues.  I absolutely hate it when people make this comparison, it is ridiculous.

Where did I mention a "bevy" of prospects?  If you traded both Jones and Ohman chances are you could get a couple decent prospects, I dont think there is an argument from most here either.  

DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 9:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Did...
Jacque Jones murder a member of your family, dude?  Seriously.

UZI

"I don't do drugs. I am drugs." - Salvador Dali

by Ozgreeder on Feb 20, 2007 9:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

what
are you talking about?  I never said anything bad about the guy, just that i think we're better off without him and all this love towards an average player is odd.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 9:13 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Makes me wonder..............
...........why there wasn't a "group hug" posting for Neif!

After all, he ran the bases well and fielded various positions without fail.  Yes, he was a bum at the plate, but he was only being paid half of what Jones is making.

So in hindsight, why did we rag Neif!???

Time for love - if not a possible return - of Neif!!!!

Geez...........this is baseball and if Jones needs therapy because he took abuse for not doing his job, he's certainly got enough money to cover the fees.

by tville on Feb 20, 2007 9:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He did...
...exactly what he was signed to do.  And I'm one of the ones who didn't want him signed!  Give me a break.

I like what the original poster said: We are not Philadelphians, c'mon people.

"Looking for good signs is a good sign of delusion." - Me

by gravedigger on Feb 20, 2007 9:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And we're not..............
.........in Never-Never Land either.

I was at Wrigley on Opening Day in 1987 and listened to Andre Dawson get booed because he struck out.  Obviously he did some things quickly to turn the minds of the fans.

Meanwhile Jones is whining about a trade (his recent disclaimer notwithstanding) and dancing with the race card.

Instead of kissing Jones, we should be wanting him to perform as expected.  Is it too much to ask for a ML player to catch a fly ball?  Am I out of bounds for thinking a ML runner should know how to take an extra base?  

We're not on a sandlot, c'mon people........

by tville on Feb 20, 2007 9:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nobody said anything about...
...sandlot, or kissing people.  Nobody is going to engage in discussion with you if you are going to put words in peoples mouths and sink to the use of hyperbole.
"Looking for good signs is a good sign of delusion." - Me

by gravedigger on Feb 20, 2007 10:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not so much..
love as sympathy.  As gravedigger has previously stated, while Jones may not be your favorite Cubs player, he doesn't/didn't deserve the harrassment he endured while at Wrigley.  

UZI

"I don't do drugs. I am drugs." - Salvador Dali

by Ozgreeder on Feb 20, 2007 9:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i wasnt harrassing him
you werent either, im sorry he was, but thats what happens when you sign a big contract in one of the biggest markets in professional sports.  Deal with it Jacque, let your play silence the fans.  Goodness.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 9:50 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He played well enough...
...that he should have silenced the fans, but many of them kept it up, and in really disturbing ways.
"Looking for good signs is a good sign of delusion." - Me

by gravedigger on Feb 20, 2007 9:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
He played up to and maybe beyond his abilities.  He's not getting paid to be the best player on the team....not even close.  Watch what happens when Soriano doesn't come close to fulfilling his expectations.

Aramis and Pierre deserved the boo-birds more than JJ.  I'm not a big JJ fan, but he did what he was signed to do.   Was the alternative (Preston Wilson) much better???   Well, let me restate that:  Was Preston Wilson much better against anybody other than the cubs?

Like so many said, it was just a bad year and everyone was looking to take out frustrations.

by Ghost of Fred Merkle on Feb 20, 2007 9:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

aramis
deserved boos?  are you out of your mind!  He had the best offensive season of his career.  Look at his Batting Avg. Balls In Play, he was the most unlucky hitter in the league in the first half.  
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 10:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Come now...
If anyone on the Cubs roster merits booing its Aramis.  I don't give a s*it how many homeruns the guy hits or whatever.  He's a lazy ass who needs to hustle from March to October.

UZI

"I don't do drugs. I am drugs." - Salvador Dali

by Ozgreeder on Feb 20, 2007 10:07 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

give me a break
the only person that is hurting is aramis himself, he does WAY more than enough for this team that we as the fans should care less whether he creats 120 runs for this team or creates 115, he should not be booed.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 10:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

when i say hurting himself
i mean in terms of dollars by not being even more of a spectacular player than he already is.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 10:50 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

did you actually read my post?
Look at his BABIP and then come talk to me.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 10:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

um no
his defense gave the fans plenty of ammunition to boo him.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 9:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Coming in...
...people knew he wasn't an all-world defender.  Not that it gives him an excuse, but if fans had higher expectations, they weren't paying attention.

I'm sorry JJ isn't the world's best baseball player.  But he isn't the worst, either.  Just as he lies somewhere in between, so should the level of booing and cheering he should get.

"Looking for good signs is a good sign of delusion." - Me

by gravedigger on Feb 20, 2007 10:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree
he's an above average player if his defense is adequate.  But last year it wasnt, and that is why he got booed. I am only saying we are better off without him, and that people need to stop staunchly defending the guy.  He knew what he was getting into signing his contract in a big market where you just signed a contract a lot of people at the time did not agree with.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 10:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Two things
  1. We do know whether Floyd is healthy or not. He isn't 100% right now. He has said so. This is part of the reason it took him so long to sign. Hendry wanted to see the progress of recovery. You can look it up. It's all on cubs.com.
  2. Hendry will not trade Jones/Ohman for prospects unless they suck or are injured. Count it. For his job security's sake, it's stupid. This team must win now for Hendry to keep his job. Getting rid of your 2nd/3rd most productive outfielder and your second best left-handed reliever for guys that won't help your team now, and Hendry's livelihood, is stupid.

by tyger1147 on Feb 20, 2007 10:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ha
you dont think that when one evaluates a GM that they take his entire resume into evaluation?  Why would it not help Hendry's livelihood if he made a good trade?  Cotts should be just as good as Ohman, as Ohman is nothing special, hes a good guy to have but its not like he's special. And I think you're giving Jones too much credit.  I think most would agree that Matt Murton and his ability to hit, make contact, take pitches, obp make him more "productive" than Jones.  Plus I would say Floyd is more productive that Jones too.  So the way I look at it is Hendry getting rid of spare parts.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 12:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

answers
sure, because, wrong, okay, huh?, no, wrong, no

by tyger1147 on Feb 20, 2007 3:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent post ... !
n/t
Coming Soon: The Martha Stewart Collection's Mark Prior "Signature" Towel ...

by Littlerock Rynofan on Feb 20, 2007 8:45 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I whole heartedly agree
We should cheer Jones.  Is he a superstar, no, but Cub fans have a long history of cheering for guys not because they are superstars but because they display the right attitude, Augie Ojeda comes to mind. I don't think anyone can argue that Jones was treated unfairly last year.  sure, he started out 0-13 as a Cub, but you know, Ryno was a notoriously slow starter, and I don't ever recall him being booed.  What's more, there is a difference between booing a player's performance, and booing a player.  Jones did absolutely NOTHING to warrant being booed as a player/individual.
Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Feb 20, 2007 8:58 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

you mean
other than practice endzone celebrations in right field.  Gosh this Jacque Jones love makes me want to puke.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 9:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure you have a trash can in your house.....
Be my guest.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Feb 20, 2007 10:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

endzone celebrations?
I am not talking loving JJ, but why not cheer him?  Does he need to be your favorite player to cheer for him,  for pete's sake he is a member of your favorite team, so unless he does something that warrants the alternative, I say cheer for him.  Why is that so much to ask?

As for the Cubs being better off without him, we will just have do disagree on that.  If the Cubs are going to try to win this year, I simply can't imagine trusting Floyd in RF, and Pie is simply not ready!  The guy struggled at AAA last year and was horrible in winter ball.  I am as big a believer in Pie as anyone, but he is a young raw talent, and shouldn't be rushed, that will not do anybody any good.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Feb 20, 2007 11:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ok dude
i guess we really do just have to agree to disagree.  Ha, they are endzone celebrations first off.  Second off, I fully believe that Floyd would be better off in right if he's healthy, and again, if not, again we disagree because Pie should be ready by midseason.

"Pie struggled at Triple A"

How is that?  He struggled at first, sure, like any 21-year-old would on their first taste of Triple A.  But second half stats are the ones worth trusting when looking at a players first year in Triple A and in the second half Pie did great, leading to good overall numbers in the league.

DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 11:21 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Soooo..
You want the Cubs to trade Jones before Opening Day. But Floyd isn't 100% now. He says he will be by Opening Day, but that can't be known now. If you trade Jones and Floyd isn't ready... is Pie your starter in RF? Pagan? Just curious.

While I disagree (sort of) with a lot of your other comments: mainly that I think Jones will be traded, but not until June when they are comfortable that a 5-way platoon between Theriot, DeRosa, Floyd, Murton and Pie can be effective at 2B and RF and LF. That's my hope anyway. My guess is that Jones, along with others, are traded for a hitting SS or a closer sometime around the All-Star game. Again, not for prospects.

by tyger1147 on Feb 20, 2007 11:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well thats what spring training is for
Obviously if Floyd shows he wont be ready to start the season and Pie has a sub-par spring then no, I wouldnt want to trade Jones.  But like I said all along, if Floyd is healthy then him and Pie as a backup are better off than Jones on this team.

I hope what you suggest in your post happen...curious as to what you disagree with about my other posts.

DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 11:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Scenarios...
Underwhat scenario would you trade JJ before opening day?  

No matter how Floyd does this spring, I won't trust his health.  I won't trust his health until after the last game he plays for the Cubs.  That isn't a knock on him, I like the signing, but a realistic acknowledgement of who he is.

As for Pie, he basically needs to be no worse than the 2nd best OF on the team to make the club out of Spring Training.  I would love nothing more than to see Soriano/Pie in CF/RF, but realistically, I just don't see how the Cubs can count on that unless Pie has the type of spring that forces the Cubs hand.  Obviously, if a young player outplays a veteran, I am all for trading that vet, but I just don't see Pie outperforming Jones in the near term.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Feb 20, 2007 12:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If you live long enough.............
..........you'll see everything, and seeing this makes me think I've lived too long.

First of all, Jones has to earn OUR RESPECT; not the other way around.  Those of us attending games are paying his salary and it's up to him to produce.

Secondly, he's being paid handsomely to perform, and part of the deal is putting up with the grief when he doesn't perform well.  No reason for the racial remarks, I agree, but all the other stuff he heard for his poor fielding, base running and hitting were certainly warranted.  

He had a whopping total of two hits in the team's first 12 games in 2006.  What do you expect the response from the crowd will be, especially when he was inept on the bases and in the field?!?!

I'll grant you his hitting did improve over the course of the season and he seemingly played hard all the time, but the die had already been cast given his April performance.

It strikes me Jones still has some proving to do in the field.  I see no reason to let up on him until he delivers - CONSISTENTLY.

And not to stray too far, but this racial issue is a two-way street.  Doesn't anyone find it odd that Lovie Smith can steer clear of this topic yet Dusty did everything possible to stir that pot?

by tville on Feb 20, 2007 9:09 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

absolutely agree
with everything. My sentiments exactly.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 9:13 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Putting up with grief...
...is not the same thing as putting up with things being thrown at you, or receiving calls saying "I'm going to kill you n*".  Nobody should have to put up with that, regardless of what their job is or how they are doing it.
"Looking for good signs is a good sign of delusion." - Me

by gravedigger on Feb 20, 2007 9:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Assuming............
..........all those things happened, believe the..........

"No reason for the racial remarks, I agree"

...........comment in my post covers this topic.

by tville on Feb 20, 2007 9:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Then what is the disagreement about
I think the original poster was talking about the really unnecessary behavior toward Jones, not just regular booing through periods where he sucks.

This would include the prolong period of boos, where he can't take a step in the field without being showered with boos.  Is that necessary?

"Looking for good signs is a good sign of delusion." - Me

by gravedigger on Feb 20, 2007 9:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There were parts................
...........of Jones' game that really never showed improvement.  His throwing arm was awful all season long and his baserunning remained Alou-esque as well.

The fact that by September he was able to camp under a fly without dropping it does not, in my mind, erase his history of poor defensive play.

by tville on Feb 20, 2007 10:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So you are finding reasons to hate him?
JJ needs to improve both of those areas in his game, without a doubt.

But man, last season's team was so atrocious, I barely noticed these aspects of JJ's game.  It wasn't his fault nobody got on base, or that the pitchers gave up a ton of home runs, or that the starters couldn't go at least 5 innings, or that.. well, you get the picture.

"Looking for good signs is a good sign of delusion." - Me

by gravedigger on Feb 20, 2007 10:13 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

thats not the point
the point is that we should not be discussing how WE as huge cubs fans and supporters of the team who never harmed a hair on Jacques head should be earning his respect.  He will earn OUR respect by not talking about trades, whining about dusty getting fired, and improving his game.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 10:22 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Why shouldn't he complain...
...about his surroundings?  Regardless of how much he makes, he's still human.  If he's not happy with his situation (and I wouldn't be if I were being threatened, called racist names, and booed when I was hitting well), I'd complain and ask for a trade too.
"Looking for good signs is a good sign of delusion." - Me

by gravedigger on Feb 20, 2007 10:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you didnt address my comment
theres no reason why we should earn his respect, it is the other way around for more reasons than one.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 10:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I meant to say...
...that I generally agree with that.  Still, we're all people, so respect should still be a two way street.
"Looking for good signs is a good sign of delusion." - Me

by gravedigger on Feb 20, 2007 10:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

true
i have no reason to disrespect jacque jones as a person and hopefully i can respect his play on the field as well. If he is on this team and plays his role then great.  But if his defense keeps up he's going to get booed, and he needs to realize that.  And we should not be starting any jacque jones fan clubs, im not sure who said that.
DON'T TRADE PIE!

by kylejo on Feb 20, 2007 11:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Now you are putting...............
...........words in mouths.

Don't recall me saying I hate him.  In fact, can't remember stating I even disliked him.

Nonetheless, his game has holes and I don't intend to ignore those deficiencies.  

I'm also not going to blame "last season's team" because only Jacque Jones was wearing #11 for the Cubs when fly balls dropped in front of him or when he dribbled throws in from the field or when he swung at 58-footers or when he ran to the wrong base, etc.  Blame the team for the overall results, but please DO blame Jones for the blatant errors he himself created.

by tville on Feb 20, 2007 10:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I booed him a lot
from my living room and ballparks across the midwest.  But I booed him for his PERFORMANCE on the field, not for who he was.  

None of the responses here were suggesting that we give him our respect for his playing.  Just that we say that we aren't all racists and bigots.  That's what was said in the original post, if I read it correctly.

MCDONOUGH!

by secdelahc on Feb 20, 2007 9:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Now wait...
Is that applause for Jacques Jones?
For the booing of Jacques Jones?

If we all applaud when someone boos Jacques Jones, might that get confusing.  Especially when it seems others might respond by booing when others cheer...

oh boy, my head hurts...

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Feb 20, 2007 12:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Great post....
I too agree that most of us Cub fans were a little hard on JJ, myself included.  

I think a majority of the criticism, as others have said, started from the original signing of Jacque.  After a disappointing end to '05, I think alot of us were hoping for a big signing - and when Hendry announced the deal, many were outraged at what seemed like an overwhelming contract (with more emphasis on the # of years) at the time.  

With that disappointment, JJ got off to a horrible start - and he heard from all of us.  By the time he was putting up respectable numbers, the Cubs were 6 feet under.

If he's in our OF for '07, then I am behind him 100%.  With the ball throwing & racial comments aside (and i'm not ignoring or supporting those - they were WAY out of line), I think alot of it was just "The nature of the beast" - We expect to win & win now, and those that can't come here and be successful, they will catch the Cub fans ire.

"A study in the Washington Post says that women have better verbal skills than men. I just want to say to the authors of that study: "Duh." ~Conan O'Brien

by talkingcubs on Feb 20, 2007 9:11 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

A few comments
I do believe that Cub fans, since the end of 2003, have had a change in tone. Yes, some of this is a product of being so close after decades of futility. I believe that there are a lot of factors behind this change in tone beyond the 2003 season. I do believe that Dusty Baker's reign and methods played a big role. Starting with 2004's collapse, Baker created an "us against the world" mentality that turned fans and media members against the team. Dusty made the Cub teams very difficult to like.

I think it goes beyond that, too. But what I do hope is that the Lou Piniella led Cubs bring an end to what has been some really difficult Cub teams to like. I think there has been a very negative aura surrounding the Cubs that started with the 2004 collapse. I hope that 2007 ushers in a different feeling because I'm not sure I can deal with another season of this.

What bothers me the most is the racism claim. Dusty, Bob Nightengale, Dan McGrath, the crap that they propagated about Cub fans being racist was a symptom of the Baker management. There are racist fans amongst every team. While I empathize with Hawkins, Jones, and anyone else who ever got racist mail or criticism, and while I think that this behavior is unacceptable, just because a few Cub fans are racist doesn't mean that this is anything more than the fact that racist people exist in this world.

DmL

by dmlichte on Feb 20, 2007 10:38 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I agree
with your post. I was critical of JJ last season. I did see his interview and it did make me feel very sad for him. I probably won't get to any games this year so I hope the fans treat him with repsect. I would never boo any player in person at a ballgame. I may be tempted but I wouldn't do it.

This is a new season with a new manager and some new players. I am optimistic about this Cubs team and can't wait to see how they play together. I will be very disappointed if Murton doesn't get left field and Prior fails again.

COTTS!!!

by sue369 on Feb 20, 2007 10:57 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

The bottom line on this.
I know perfectly well that racist fans, unfortunately, exist everywhere, but the majority of Cub fans are not racist at all.  But it's always a few bad apples tht ruin it for everyone, and when things like this happen, the image of an entire fan base takes a hit, and that's what bothers me.  If a guy has a bad attitude and/or does not give 100 percent, and then goes out and gives a terrible performance on the field, then it is open season for the boo birds.  But I never felt like Jacque was giving less than 100 percent, and although he certainly could have given his treatment, he never displayed any kind of bad attitude.  I'm just saying give the guy a break, and treat him with respect.  Respect is a two-way street....we have to earn his respect just as he has to earn ours.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Feb 20, 2007 11:12 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Every diary, a headache
Ouch, people!

I think Jones will be an important component this year. If he runs the bases the same way, I will scream. At my TV. If I'm lucky enough to be able to catch a game since I don't have DirecTV. I would hope his arm will be better, but he never had much of one to begin with. It'll never be strong, but as long as he isn't throwing it into the ground right in front of him, I'll be happier than last year. He's actually a pretty good outfielder otherwise.

There's also the chance that Soriano doesn't take to center, and at that point they are going to look at Jones in center. With four capable outfielders in Soriano, Jones, Floyd and Murton, I really doubt we'll see Pie in center before Jones. There isn't much room for him this year unless (until) someone gets hurt.

So Jones is important because of his left-handed bat, his experience, and because he might be our centerfielder. And from my recollection of watching him as a Twin, he's pretty clutch.

The only time I soured on him was when I thought he wanted off the team and was going to be a distraction. I think some reports of his unhappiness were exaggerated or at least focused on too much. I now think he'll fit in just fine, and be an important part of the team. He's got my support, just like every other member of this Cubs team, but I reserve the right to bitch about him if he screws up.

by JodyDavis on Feb 20, 2007 12:12 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Don't worry...
about catching the games.  I'm actually trying to start a program on public access television that would allow myself and several other fellow actors to reenact any and all MLB games you wish you could have seen.

UZI

"I don't do drugs. I am drugs." - Salvador Dali

by Ozgreeder on Feb 20, 2007 12:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

In various costumes
I want to be dressed as Marie Antoinette.
HENDRY!

by cubbiejulie on Feb 20, 2007 12:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Do I get to behead you?
"Looking for good signs is a good sign of delusion." - Me

by gravedigger on Feb 20, 2007 12:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know...
it's cliche', but I'll be Groucho Marx.

UZI

"I don't do drugs. I am drugs." - Salvador Dali

by Ozgreeder on Feb 20, 2007 12:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Cliche
I guess I have to be John Stamos then.
PAGAN!

by Jesse Guam on Feb 20, 2007 3:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess
I'll have to kill you as soon as you start playing the bongoes for Kokomo.

Note: I am not really killing anyone.

by JodyDavis on Feb 20, 2007 5:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Move on
I'm certain all of us have had experiences with other people that were traumatic to us. If we carried those feelings with us forever, our lives would deprived of much value. If JJ needs coddling, I say, look for it someplace else. If he wants a level playing field, I believe the vast majority Cub fans are willing to offer that.

Much of Jones' problems were not of his making. As a  hitter he did very well against RH pitching. However, he took 139 AB versus LH and had an abysmal .261 OBP. It wasn't Jones fault he was asked to hit against lefties. That's on Baker and Hendry. But JJ took the fall.

Finally, I've never heard when the problem with his shoulder was discovered. Did he have the injury when he was signed? Did Hendry act with due diligence?

Players win awards but teams win championships.

by tharr on Feb 20, 2007 2:25 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

i have no regrets
toward criticizing jones last year.  He was not a very good player and i think we grossly overpaid for a player of his calibre.  Sure he hit 27 home runs but the guy cant field his position, cant run the bases, and is absolutely pathetic when it comes to working the count.  I would have no problem seeing him get traded

by CubsBall2202 on Feb 20, 2007 5:33 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

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