Oh, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
by Al Yellon on Feb 27, 2007 10:36 AM CST
in Chicago Cubs News
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PrintUPDATE [2007-2-27 16:03:24 by Al]: Changed the title. Seemed somehow more appropriate.
The title of this post was "Keep Your Fingers Crossed, You Cubs Fans." Remember when Jack Brickhouse would say that, just before a tense bottom of the ninth?
With any luck, the title, photo and content of this post will change for the positive this afternoon.
As luck would have it for me, I have to stay late at work today, so I'll be away from the computer when the Veterans Committee HoF announcement is made at 1 pm CT today. So, help yourselves to discuss Ron Santo here all day. I'll weigh in when I get back.
UPDATE [2007-2-27 14:02:30 by Al]: Here's the bad news from the Cubs website -- if you haven't yet heard, Ron missed by five votes. You've all said it quite well in the comments, but I will simply add this: I think anyone on that committee who didn't vote for Santo should be immediately kicked out of the Hall.
UPDATE [2007-2-27 14:25:37 by Al]: You can send your comments directly to the Veterans Committee on this comment form. Here's what I wrote:
The man is one of the five best third basemen in baseball history. He is a tireless ambassador for the game, and his passion for baseball shows through on every broadcast he makes. He accomplished his feats on the diamond while suffering from a debilitating disease which can kill, and has had further health problems after his retirement from baseball which have cost him both his legs, all of which he has endured with unfailing good humor.
Any of you who did not vote for him ought to be ashamed of yourselves. The Hall of Fame is diminished in my eyes today.
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I hope Ron.....
by PriorandAramisfan23 on Feb 27, 2007 10:44 AM CST reply actions
I hope so too!
Let's hope today is THE DAY!!!!!
by CubFanSince1970 on Feb 27, 2007 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
Ronnie Belongs!
We're pulling for you Ron!
Good luck, Ronnie!
Hear Hear
by JimmyJ31 on Feb 27, 2007 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
Ronnie
by JimmyJ31 on Feb 27, 2007 11:08 AM CST reply actions
Exhibit A in this category:
What am
Played same era as Santo. Robinson appeared in 653 more games than Santo. Santo out homered him 342 to 268, higher average .277 to Robinson's .267. Ron has only 26 less RBI's, but also played in 653 games fewer.
I would give the nod to Robinson in fielding, but Santo was not very far behind him. Looking forward to getting some good news today!
You're missing one thing:
Santo: 0 post-season appearances.
I take nothing away from Robinson, who is a lot like Ozzie Smith, in that his defense and World Series appearances were going to get him into the Hall of Fame as long as his offense was respectable. But Santo could hit more than these guys blindfolded, and also won 5 Gold Gloves as well. It's so unfair, and so political.
Brooks also had...
1-AL MVP (Santo 0 MVP)
1-All-star game MVP (Santo 0)
1-World Series MVP (Santo 0)
1-Finished 2nd in MVP voting (Santo 0)
2-Finished 3rd in MVP voting (Santo 0, the highest RS reached was 4)
16 straight Gold Glove (Santo 5)
OK White Sox fan
Ron Santo .277/.362/.464 342 HRs
vs
Brooks Robinson .267/.322/.401 286 HRs
Fielding % goes to Robinson with .971 vs. Ronnie's .954 at the same position. remember though that Ronnie's HRs and other offensive stats came with many fewer at-bats.
MVPs and other awards like that hardly ever go to the most deserving individual. It all depends on the media and how a team does. In fact they should change the name of the award to Most Valuable Player on a Good Team Award.
There isn't any sane argument in the world to say why Ron Santo doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame.
by santo for prez on Feb 28, 2007 1:09 AM CST up reply actions
Ok, "Santo for prez"
You can try to paint me as being against Santo because I'm a Sox fan, not because of a "sane" reason. That's just not the case though. If there was not a "sane argument in the world to say why Ron Santo doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame," what explains Santo being passed over now 18 times?
Tuesday's election marked the 18th time Santo has been on a Hall of Fame ballot. It came 33 years after he retired...
"This is a lot of fuss over a guy who received only 15 of 385 votes in 1980, initially falling off the BBWAA ballot because he did not receive 10 percent of the vote, then the standard.
"Don't ask me why he wasn't more highly regarded when he retired. If nothing else, these semi-annual debates about his credentials have elevated the old Cub's profile." - Chicago Tribune, Phil Rogers
Actually..
by santo for prez on Feb 28, 2007 1:56 AM CST up reply actions
lowering the bar...
As I said previously, I am not against Santo getting into the HOF. IMHO Santo will get into the HOF no doubt largely a result of the perpetual PR campaign in Santo's behalf and the constant self-promoting by Santo. All of which is sad in a way if, as you say and many others say, he deserves to be there on account of his credentials on the field.
Not to mention..
Face it, there is no explainable reason for Ron Santo to not be in the Hall of Fame.
by santo for prez on Feb 28, 2007 1:58 AM CST up reply actions
So what??
World Series MVP? I guess David Eckstein can start working on his induction speech now. But why no HOF inductions for guys like Bucky Dent, Ray Knight and Scott Brosius?
# of seasons of 25 or more Hrs (Santo 8, Robinson 1). Robinson also had over 2,500 more ABs than Santo which translates into an additional 4-5 seasons.
Santo also had twice as many seasons with 100 or more RBI and twice as many seasons with 90 or more RBIs.
I believe there are only two 3B to have 5 or more gold gloves and 300 Hrs. Mike Schmidt, who is arguably the best 3B ever, is one. The other is Santo.
Isolation breeds...
Each of those awards individually don't add up to a HOF. Taken all together with the career Brooks Robinson had then yes you probably do have a HOF.
Doesn't make sense???
You provided no support against his post. Now this is not true, "Taken all together with the career Brooks Robinson had then yes you probably do have a HOF."
Your statement doesn't show the merit of an individual. You are basing Robinson's career and entry into the HOF based on the team that he was on. We all know that a majority of the time an MVP is on a winning team and obviously with his world series that was also on the team.
You can sit here and argue it all you want but people keep throwing stats at you and all you can ever do is give your personal opinion on the matter. Are you a former player or one of the big time sports writers. If not, then when you troll your way back onto this site, why don't you try to bring some supporting stats to validate your personal opinions?
by santo for prez on Feb 28, 2007 5:52 PM CST up reply actions
Santo in the HOF, fine
"...all you can ever do is give your personal opinion on the matter."
God forbid that someone post opinions on a discussion site. Actually I asked reasonable questions in this discussion that not one person has addressed too.
"Are you a former player or one of the big time sports writers. If not, then when you troll your way back onto this site, why don't you try to bring some supporting stats to validate your personal opinions?"
Santo's been passed over 18 times by baseball writers and former major league baseball players. Clearly many people outside of Cub nation feel that Santo is not a clear HOF.
I guess it's too much to expect a reasonable discussion on Santo getting into the HOF with someone who's taken the user name, "Santo for prez."
Try not to have this fester in you though. In time Santo will get into the HOF thanks to the tireless campaigning by WGN radio TV and newspaper not to overlook the cries of his fans.
Hey Sox Fan.....
That being said, I have to agree with you.....
Although I like Santo, the angst over his failing to get into the HOF for the 18th time is laughable.
He was a good player. IMHO, I believe he should be in the HOF. Unfortunately, the sportswriters and his peers think otherwise. It is not the end of the world as some of these posts make it seem.
by timeforachange on Feb 28, 2007 11:54 PM CST up reply actions
As Yoko yelped, "Walking On Thin Ice"
Doing so will put you out of favor here.
"It seems like you make your way here only when there is trouble in Cubland. IMHO, you enjoy rubbing our noses in the crap that seems to always surround this franchise."
I don't see this as "trouble in Cubland" or 'crap that surrounds (the Cubs).' As I see it it's simply a discussion about a guy getting into the HOF. It's about a Cub (and former Sox player, albeit for only one year) who many people feel is qualified for the HOF.
"Although I like Santo, the angst over his failing to get into the HOF for the 18th time is laughable."
IF Santo played for the KC Royals (of course they were not around till '69, but just for feces and giggles) and was now a retired insurance salesman and not a beloved Cub broadcaster, this discussion would not be happening.
I think Santo is a lousy broadcaster. I actually tried to watch "This Old Cub." I respect what the guy has done, especially the things he's done for diabetes. If Santo gets into the HOF I'll be happy for him.
If Santo...
About his broadcasting, that depends on what you want from a color commentator. Me, I agree with you -- I'd rather have better game analysis and someone who doesn't butcher the language. But there are a lot of people who love his passion for the game and the team, and that DOES show in his broadcasts.
Oh, the agony...
That may be true. Yankees fans may have players from that period that they feel belong in the HOF.
As it is, IMHO it's only a matter of time till Santo gets into the HOF. Maybe it would have been faster had he been a Yankee but because of the popularity of the Cubs and the perpetual pleading by Cub fans and Cub media he'll get in.
Did you read todays Tribune? My god would you agree that these articles are a over the top?
Here's some of the melodramatic terms used by Downey and beat writer Paul Sullivan:
- Enduring torture
- painful conclusion
- distraught
- recurring nightmare
- torture test
- hurt
- sick
- perturbed
- devastated
- saddest
- sad day in baseball's history
stupid is...
I notice you didn't comment on the real crux of the matter, which was comparing the stats of Santo to B.Robinson. That speaks volumes.
word
I do not remember seeing either play, as I was quite young when Santo retired. From what I've read though Santo was a better slugger but Brooks was a much better fielder. Plus Brooks was a key part of a championship club whereas in the opinion of some Santo slumped when it counted on a team with 3 HOF and a HOF manager.
Does Santo deserve to go into the HOF? Perhaps. But Santo must not be a clear cut HOF.
I'll be happy for Santo when he gets into the HOF. I certainly feel he's a inspiration to those with diabetes. God bless him and those who are inspired by his example in dealing with that condition.
Be a man and pick a side.
<<<# of seasons of 25 or more Hrs (Santo 8, Robinson 1). Robinson also had over 2,500 more ABs than Santo which translates into an additional 4-5 seasons.
Santo also had twice as many seasons with 100 or more RBI and twice as many seasons with 90 or more RBIs.
I believe there are only two 3B to have 5 or more gold gloves and 300 Hrs. Mike Schmidt, who is arguably the best 3B ever, is one. The other is Santo.>>>
Even for "praise" for Santo is weak at best. You say Santo was a better slugger than Robinson, but Robinson was a MUCH better fielder.
Instead, you choose to try to get people to actually believe you'll be happy when Santo DOES get in the HOF. Gimme a break.
this is just wrong
Santo's problem is that when he played, people didn't know about OBP or OPS, they only looked at triple crown stats. So, he was always underrated. He wasn't a .300 hitter.
Brooks had the big rep for his glove--and he probably was the best fielding 3B of all-time. Maybe that's why he's in the Hall (like Maz). But he wasn't near the hitter Santo was. But even if you think Brooks was better than Ron, what about Kell, Lindstrom, and Traynor? Ron also measures up well vs Collins and Baker. In short, these 1/2-dozen guys set the bar for the Hall--and Santo is clearly over the bar--regardless of what the sportswriters thought, or what the cretins now voting think. Some of these old farts have no idea how to accurately measure the greatness of a player in his context. Many only look at career batting average.
There are many arguments to be had about which players do and don't belong in the Hall. But in Santo's case, it's not really a close call. What it is, is an great injustice.
My stomach is in knots
Worrying that I may be cursing this by having the VCR set to tape the news tonight since I will be out.
by kerrysotherwife on Feb 27, 2007 11:31 AM CST reply actions
Wow
by ExNorthsider on Feb 27, 2007 11:42 AM CST up reply actions
He's the best player not in the HOF
Go Ronny!
They need to do it for Ronny's sake. They need to do it for our sake. Do it. Do it. Do it.
VOTE HIM IN!!!!
Note
I honestly hope that the Vet Committee does the right thing.
I said this 2 years ago and the years previous as well. I hope Ronny finally becomes 'one' with the Hall. If not then I will never visit that place. I wouldn't contain the best players.
I about 10 mintues we'll know for sure.
THIS IS NUTS...
Results
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/news/2007/07027b.htm
DmL
HE DIDNT GET IT...
Just missed the cut.
He got...
Maybe we should shove it up theirs...
"FAN SUPPORT: Fans wishing to voice their opinion in support of their favorite candidates may do so in two ways: by sending a single letter to Hall of Fame Veterans Committee, 25 Main Street, Cooperstown, NY 13326, or by logging on to baseballhalloffame.org and sending an e-mail. The Hall of Fame does not forward petitions to the voting members, but makes all correspondence known to any interested voting members, as well as to the Screening Committee members and Historical Overview Committee members."
Dan
I'm too pissed off to read more on the crappy HOF
Dan
Count me In...
by FullyKraeusened on Feb 27, 2007 1:19 PM CST up reply actions
i emailed them a few years ago
crap. pure crap.
by mike @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Feb 27, 2007 1:41 PM CST up reply actions
Damn it
by Richie Hebner 18 on Feb 27, 2007 1:05 PM CST reply actions
Sad.....
by timeforachange on Feb 27, 2007 1:05 PM CST reply actions
In truth
Disban the Vet Committee
Sorry Ronny, my god I'm sorry.
My thought exactly
They should be embarrassed, ashamed and ridiculed in public for this atrocity.
It seems like such a no brainer...
by GuntherNancy on Feb 27, 2007 1:07 PM CST reply actions
total bullshit
by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Feb 27, 2007 1:13 PM CST reply actions
Terribly sad for him
It seems cruel to say it, but they won't let him in while he's alive.
Perhaps, after diabetes finally kills him, his peers will appreciate what he went through to play, nevermind play as well as he did.
Apologies, Al, but only one word applies: Fuck.
Agreed with all of you
Good god...
Seriously, how legitimate can a Hall of Fame be when one of the 10 best third-basemen in the game's 100+ year history is on the outside looking in?
I also think...
Ron Santo is a HOF player for those of us old enough to have seen him play, no matter what the Veteran's committee says.
by jazzman56 on Feb 27, 2007 1:26 PM CST reply actions
This is almost sickening
Veterans Committee,
You have once again made a huge mistake by not electing Ron Santo into the Hall of Fame.
Shame on you for not doing you research on one of the greatest third basemen of his era, otherwise you would have seen that the numbers that Ron has put together were more than enough for entry. Not only that but considering all the suspicion of foul play in baseball these days, you are not rewarding a hard working player who still remains present as integral memember and fan of baseball as any member voting. Shame on you.
I am very dissapointed that the Veterans Committe did not do their job by electing a player who rightfully deserves to be inducted. Something is deeply wrong when members are so enamoured with their pompous image of being a Hall member that they will not vote for somebody who has rightfully deserved so.
You have disgraced the meaning and the process of Hall of Fame voting and inductions. Congratulations.
Excellent letter
Indeed
Shame, shame, shame. How could you once more disappoint, dismay, and disrespect Ron Santo and all of his many friends and supporters. His playing days alone should have been sufficient to elect him long ago. His enthusiasm for the game, for the Cubs, and for life in the face of his disabilities should also be a factor. More than anything, his efforts for juvenile diabetes have made a massive impact on the research, treatment, and attitude towards the disease and its victims. Shame on you all, if you were among those who did not vote for Ron. The committee should be abolished and an new means of electing older players should be instituted.
by moldyfolky on Feb 27, 2007 10:25 PM CST up reply actions
Not to sound bitter.....
Wait til next year...
More appropriately.....
what is the address
I sent it via e-mail
I'm not sure if there is a limit to how many time a player can be on the ballot. I do know that some players can be elected years and years after they have passed away.
I asked this...
Dan
Unbelievable.
Sorry.
For there to be a change in Joe Morgan's
I trust this is the end
I like to know how Joe Morgan voted.
And hopefully Joe Morgan's influence
Morgan
by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Feb 27, 2007 9:00 PM CST up reply actions
He also had a sound bite.....
from Barry Rosner's column today
He has, in previous years, openly campaigned against everyone on the Veterans Committee ballot and was successful again Tuesday in denying all candidates.
But now Schmidt says he thinks the writers should vote for Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa -- the poster boys for enhanced power.
Asked if he would have voted for McGwire, Schmidt told the Philadelphia Daily News, "I would have said yes, Mark deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, if I was a writer.''
Schmidt went on to rip the writers for making money off McGwire and Sosa, and then denying McGwire a spot in the Hall.
He might be correct about the media being blind and oblivious for a number of years but wrong for suggesting the press should now turn a blind eye."
Re
Or maybe it should just be renamed Hall of Buddies.
Visit The Digital Gazette
Santo 5 votes short
Does anyone know the identities
of some of the people who won't vote
Ron in ? And some of their reasoning ?
Sorry Ron...
GO CUBS !!!!
Ron Santo
I grew up watching Ron and Brooks Robinson. They were two of the best third sackers of all time. I expected both would have no problem being elected to the Hall. Boy, was I wrong.
Ron and Doug Harvey both belong in the Hall. 2009 can't come soon enough for Ron. Doug has to wait until 2011. What a shame!
There's that "World Series"
When does Joe Carter get in?
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Feb 27, 2007 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
complete crap..
Thanks for the email.
He was great on ESPN....
countdown
by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Feb 27, 2007 2:47 PM CST up reply actions
Re
The HOF remains the arbitrator of who is worthy of Fame only as long as the fans of the game believe it's serving that mission. Clearly, it failed today, just as it did in 2003 and 2005.
One key reason has to be the Hall's Vice Chairman, Joe "No One Gets In As Long As I'm Alive" Morgan. It speaks volumes about the mentality of the Hall's leadership when this complete ass clown is anything except a player enshrinee.
There are some responses that would be appropriate. One would be to mount an online pledge amongst fans to refuse to visit what is essentially just a private business until it pulls its collective head out of its ass and stops what can only be the result of internal politics and egos. Another would be to start on online "Digital HOF" in competition with the B&M one, and by doing a better job picking its members, show the farce that the business in Cooperstown has become.
While I'm sure Santo is disappointed once again, I'm also sure he knows deep down inside that he's every bit the HOFer that those already selected are. It's a good lesson of life that what really counts is what you know about yourself, not what others say.
Visit The Digital Gazette
The message:
by nextyearcub on Feb 27, 2007 2:11 PM CST reply actions
You might want to
They don't say that anymore
by nextyearcub on Feb 27, 2007 4:15 PM CST up reply actions
Re
It's what you learn after you know it all that really counts.
Visit The Digital Gazette
Tell that
by nextyearcub on Feb 27, 2007 8:47 PM CST up reply actions
The worst would be.....
Everyone talked about how great Ryno's speech was (and it was) but can you imagine the emotion of a Ron Santo induction? Not a dry eye in Cubbie Nation.
The apologists
The writers had their heads up their ass, and now the veterans are showing they are doing the same. It is purely a weigh to keep their little club as exclusive as possible. Aside from the WS activity, Brooks Robinson was a shadow of the player Santo was.
I agree with Al- it's time to disband the vet's committee and find another ay to do this. The current method is a travesty.
B. Robby wasn't a 'shadow'
Both properly deserve enshrinement. Santo's being screwed, probably because he rubbed people the wrong way in the past and these egomaniacs have long memories.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Feb 27, 2007 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
There is no doubt that Ronny Santo deserves...
by Mark H @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Feb 27, 2007 2:35 PM CST reply actions
Preaching to the "Choir" of five or more
I received one commment that accused me of "preaching to the choir." I chose not to grace a reply at that time. Obviously, this is THE site and community to Bleed Cubbie Blue. As has recently been posted, even the MSM take note of what occurs here. It is at least five of these same misguided HoF "Veteran" members who need an education, and persuasion.
Repetition is what sells, persuades, and makes the world go round. Perhaps we need more "Preaching to the choir" support for Ron, and every deserving veteran who has been unjustly denied the honor of election.
I wish Ron and all of his family the very best in healing and dealing with this latest slight.
I continue to pledge to NEVER visit or step into the HoF until Ron is elected. That will be a glorious day in Cubs history and in the history of the HoF and MLB.
In case you missed it, Rick Morrisey produced an article about Ron last week that also belongs in Cooperstown:
Ron Santo Belongs in Cooperstown!
by hellfreezesoverwaittillnextyear on Feb 27, 2007 2:37 PM CST reply actions
Open up the voting records
The pressure can then be put on those people, generally so full of themselves and their "lofty" positions and desire to protect the sanctity of the HOF.
What crap- I usually visit every other year. I won't go again until this wrong is corrected.
Its nice to see...
Isn't it just possible that Ron Santo isn't a shoe-in Hall of Famer? I don't know if he's Hall worth or not, but if he is, he isn't a sure thing. There is room for debate on this one. The fact remains that when Santo was eligible for the regular vote, he received over 40% of the vote once. He spent most of his years garnering between 20-30% of the vote.
Look, if I had a vote, I'd likely vote for Ron. I understand why people feel so strongly about Santo and I'm not sure Cub fans will ever feel this strongly about a baseball player again. But the case can be made on both sides and perhaps some of the people who didn't vote for Santo legitimately believe that he isn't a Hall of Famer.
DmL
As I posted months ago
The exclusionary factor seems to be B. Robby was in the World Series and Ronnie wasn't.
I can see no other reason for the snub, unless Santo really pissed off these people while in uniform, and it's all politics, not reason.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Feb 27, 2007 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
Well...
- Dale Murphy (875)
- Ken Boyer (875)
- Gary Gaetti (875)
- Bobby Bonilla (868)
- Brian Downing (866)
- Graig Nettles (861)
- Ruben Sierra (860)
- Chili Davis (856)
- Luis Gonzalez (855)
- Robin Ventura (854)
Robinson, IMO, is a different story. From 1960 to 1974 he was the starting AL 3B in the All-Star game. He also played in four World Series. If you want to compare Robinson to Santo, thats fine, but there are other players who, at least Baseball-Reference.com find as a better comparison and none are in the Hall.
DmL
You surely know...
Let's look at Gaetti, since he was a 3B, and a fairly good one for a long time -- 20 years. Let's call it 18, since two of those years were of 26 or fewer AB.
He hit more HR than Santo -- 18 more, in FOUR MORE SEASONS. He had about the same number of hits -- but almost 500 fewer walks, thus a much lower OBA and SLG.
My point, I guess, is that Santo put up a career similar to -- but in many ways, better than -- Gaetti's, in far less playing time. If Santo had been healthy enough to play 18 years in the major leagues, we wouldn't be having this discussion, as he would have hit well over 400 HR and might have come close to 3000 hits, and he'd have been inducted long ago.
I understand this...
Again, I am not saying Santo isn't a Hall of Famer. I believe that he is. But I don't think its cut and dry. I just hope that the voters, those who voted for and against, did consider this deeply.
DmL
Similarity Scores
Initially, they are based on "raw" numbers. A player like Santo, who played in a period of "down" numbers is going to have similar offensive numbers t inferior players from the time of offensive inflation. The list that you provided "tracks" this very factor in that most, if not all, of those players are from an era of high offense.
Secondly, it does adjust for position, but that's about it. It doesn't take into account the "ablity" at the position. Thus Alfonso Soriano and Robbie Alomar both get the same "adjustment" for playing second base -- even though one was a butcher and one was not. Santo gets some adjustment for playing third, but it does not recognize the quality.
Finally, only two of Brook's top 10 comps are in the Hall of Fame and none of the age similar players. Why? Because Brooks, like Santo, is undervalued in this comparison because of the superior defense.
Its great to throw out a metric. But its better to try to understand it first.
BTW if you look at the HOF "predictors" Santo's ahead of Brooks on two "Grey Ink" and "HOF standards" and behind on the other two. You really can't have one in the Hall without the other.
by frustratedfan on Feb 27, 2007 3:53 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks ...
DmL
Era Adjustment
by frustratedfan on Feb 27, 2007 4:24 PM CST up reply actions
Context
DmL
10 Similars
But Santo played stellar defense at a more important position. As for the three third basemen on the list, Santo had 15 points of OPS+(Career) and 29 points of OPS+(peak) on Nettles, 29 points of OPS+(Career) and 8 points of OPS+(Peak) on Gaetti, and 9 points of OPS+ (Career) and 21 points of OPS+ peak on Boyer. And he was a better fielder than all of them.
by frustratedfan on Feb 27, 2007 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
you are missing..
DmL
OK...
But I'd love to hear the reasons -- and the real ones, not the media-spin ones -- why those who didn't vote for Santo did that.
Ron Santo is one of the ten best -- maybe the five best -- third basemen in baseball history. There's absolutely no reason to exclude someone with his credentials.
I think...
All of us recognize that Ron Santo deserves to be in the Hall. And bringing up Brooks Robinson isn't to denigrate Brooks, who also should be and IS in the Hall.
And voting for Ron doesn't mean that Gil Hodges, or Luis Tiant, or Roger Maris, or Curt Flood should not be in the Hall of Fame either, necessarily. But so many fans (and I think voters) refuse to look at any other case until their guy gets in that in the end, no one does.
I hate to be bitter (I'm a Cubs fan, after all), but I must admit this is crushing. I doubt now that it will ever happen for Ronnie. And the Hall is poorer for it...
The voting process
DmL
I couldn't agree more.
The Hall, however, is run by imperious dinosaurs who refuse to listen to reason. I can't see them changing, no matter how loud the public outcry. That's too bad, because without us, there would be no Hall.
Here's a copy of the email I sent
The Hall should be embarrassed to have this committee tarnish the image of the Hall
I no longer respect the value of the Hall of Fame. Today's voting result is a disgrace to fans every where."
it's not just sentimentality...
You know all this, dm, just had to make my case again ;) I just think his shoes should've been in a long time ago.
by cashcowsquirtingsourmilk on Feb 27, 2007 3:50 PM CST up reply actions
Allow me If I may...
Santo was not by any stretch a Saint when he was a player, but he did show up alot of guys and most likely pissed off more then his fair share. If i saw he's antic's on the field and I was one of the members voting him in or in this case perventing him from the Hall of Fame, Id have voted against him too.
Also, Millions of Americans suffer from diabeties, (I might be one of them as well, Im getting tested tonight in fact.) But Santo tends to use his disease as a reason for why he should belong in the Hall of Fame, and not his Hall of Fame like carrer numbers.
I love the Cubs as much as anyone here, I love my team so much that I'd wouldnt think twice to spend 300 dollars to go to a Cubs game. But, This time I dont think that Santo should be considered for the Hall of Fame.
Sorry guys.
Read my earlier posts on this thread
And, oh yes, you'd have better been a one-man-wrecking crew to win the WS by yourself.
I usually don't resort to this type of comment, but your reasoning is absurd enough to be comical.
Do your homework and compare the careers or Brooks Robinson and Ron Santo. Use real logic.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Feb 27, 2007 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
No, you may not
Allow me If I may...
It is my opinion that the Committee got this right. Brooks Robinson, who is most always compared to Santo basically won the 1970 World Series for the Orioles, hell they gave the man the nickname the vaccum for his performance.
So it is your premise that the Post Season is the important factor in the HOF and that Nicknames count more than performance?
And while theres no question that Santo's career was as good an probably better then Robinson's, He's got a ring and Santo doesnt.
Hm. Better player, not a member of the Hall of Fame because of Jewelry? Antonio Ozuna has a world series ring, Craig Biggio does not. Ozuna's a better player than Biggio? If we follow your logic, we are compelled to reach that conclusion.
Santo was not by any stretch a Saint when he was a player, but he did show up alot of guys and most likely pissed off more then his fair share. If i saw he's antic's on the field and I was one of the members voting him in or in this case perventing him from the Hall of Fame, Id have voted against him too.
So a "citizenship" test has been added to the Hall of Fame? Did this test get added before or after Ty Cobb and Steve Carlton get added to the Hall of Fame. Because, if you admit he's statistically right for the Hall of Fame, but you didn't vote for him because of his "attitude", you have just radically changed the nature of the Hall of Fame.
Also, Millions of Americans suffer from diabeties, (I might be one of them as well, Im getting tested tonight in fact.) But Santo tends to use his disease as a reason for why he should belong in the Hall of Fame, and not his Hall of Fame like carrer numbers.
Find me one quote where SANTO said this. And if he says this is why he should be in the Hall of Fame he's wrong. The Hall of Fame shouldn't include anyone because they are "nice" nor should it exclude them because they are a jerk. And Santo has Hall of Fame like career numbers (again assuming that you are not going to radically redefine "Hall of Fame" and provide a metric which would exclude 50-75% of the current Hall, because a metric which excludes Santo would have to exclude 50-75% of the current hall of fame.
I love the Cubs as much as anyone here, I love my team so much that I'd wouldnt think twice to spend 300 dollars to go to a Cubs game. But, This time I dont think that Santo should be considered for the Hall of Fame.
Sorry guys.
That's okay. Its pretty clear from your posting that you are badly confused. I suspect that you think that the Cubs wear red and play in Busch Stadium.
Of course im a CUBS FAN What other Chicago baseball team is there?
by frustratedfan on Feb 27, 2007 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
Listen
Im not drinking the Santo for the hall of fame cool-aid, sorry Im not.
Dont give me some colorful little ad lib about
"Oh Your confused about what your saying." because im not agreeing with the masses.
And for the Record, the Cubs do wear red and also play in Busch Staduim everytime they face the Cardinals in St. Louis.
For your sake
Ron Santo was paid to be out there to play 3B, and paid well. However his conviction to do what he loves while otherwise ignorning the fact he has a crippling disease (and trust me on this one) is, well, astounding.
You're wrong on this, and you know it.
What's frustrating about it is I've seen you around here, and you know a little bit more about things than this.
By your logic you're just as bad as those who DIDN'T vote him in.
You're wrong, and that's sad.
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 27, 2007 4:00 PM CST up reply actions
Wrong
But for the present moment, I dont think that he's worth a nod in the Hall of Fame. I dont think many players in there now should be as well.
But, I respect everyone's opinion on this subject. Apparently others on this board, you excluded Do not.
Ahh right
Or is it just your selective attention to details that did it? Yes that's right, I respect no one.
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 27, 2007 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
Misunderstanding
I was refering to the person above that said that because I posted negitive comments about Santo that I think the Cubs play in Busch Stadium.
Sorry If you misunderstood me.
Aha
Thanks for participating in the discussion. The rest of us are talking about a different entity.
by frustratedfan on Feb 27, 2007 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
So...
DmL
Diabetes is a nasty disease
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 27, 2007 4:15 PM CST up reply actions
yes...
DmL
You're serious?
'and in many others....'
Yes, you and Joe Morgan, be proud. Be very prod.
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 27, 2007 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
proud too
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 27, 2007 4:41 PM CST up reply actions
Yup
I don't see why my feeling that Santo's diabetes should not be a factor in his Hall vote is so out of line.
DmL
I don't see how
Seeing as how you have read about it, you should have respect for the man then. You know what a stressful amount of heat does to a diabetics body then, you know what traveling, physical activity, and even normal day tasks, you know how hard these simple things can be, right?
I'm glad that that you've read about them, I really am...and trust me, it's not only my family members that deal with this. I'm surrounded by it, everyday, everytime I go to work, everytime I go out with my buddy and everytime I come home.
You've seen diabetic shock first hand I take it. You've seen these blackouts first hand I take it.
I don't see why you don't think a man with Juvenile Diabetes, who went out and played the game everyday, and well at that.
5-10% of diabetics have the same condition Ron Santo had, and what did he do with it? He played baseball, in fact, set the record at the time for 364 appearances at third.
The diabetes should NOT be a crutch, however, for what it's worth, he deserves better.
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 27, 2007 5:07 PM CST up reply actions
The Hall
I am not saying that Santo's diabetes should be ignored. I am not saying that in talking about the career and life of Santo that his diabetes isn't a big thing. However I don't believe that Santo's diabetes should play a role at all in his Hall of Fame consideration. Either his performance on the field is worthy of his induction or it isn't. Others here seem to agree with me.
DmL
and on this
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 27, 2007 5:52 PM CST up reply actions
Another factor
by kerrysotherwife on Feb 27, 2007 11:48 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, it should.
Playing at the high level he played with that disease, especially since he revealed it to almost no one for years, and he was a pioneer in doing that, I think gives him extra credit, because almost certainly, had he not had diabetes, he'd have played longer and been an even better player than he was.
It's not a "Hall of Statistics", as Bill James has said. It's a "Hall of FAME". Santo is not only a great player, he has been an inspiration to generations of kids who have learned that they CAN play sports with this disease. That, IMO, counts for something. Or ought to.
So where...
No, it isn't the Hall of Statistics, but the Hall if based on how someone performed as a player. I think you head down an incredibly slippery slope when you start factoring in things like diabetes.
DmL
I don't think you know
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 27, 2007 4:41 PM CST up reply actions
I can see both sides
But I don't think his diabetes should play a major factor in that decision. As DmL points out, it's a really slippery slope.
Should Jim Abbott get extra consideration from the HOF for overcoming the adversity of being born with one hand?
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but where would it stop?
I'm sure that if Santo was asked if he wanted his HOF selection to hinge on a few sympathy votes for him playing with diabetes, he'd tell you to keep the votes.
by Scott @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Feb 27, 2007 4:59 PM CST up reply actions
Here's the kicker
I see and understand the argument, I do. However it goes beyond the diabetes too. Ron Santo was a great third baseman, and there's no doubt anywhere he's getting snubbed bigtime.
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 27, 2007 5:13 PM CST up reply actions
I agree 100%
My point, as muddled as I made it, is that I don't think that Ron would WANT people giving weight to his diabetes when considering him for the HOF. It seems to kinda go against everything he accomplished.
by Scott @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Feb 27, 2007 5:39 PM CST up reply actions
Reply
Brooks Robinson, who is most always compared to Santo basically won the 1970 World Series for the Orioles, hell they gave the man the nickname the vaccum for his performance. And while theres no question that Santo's career was as good an probably better then Robinson's, He's got a ring and Santo doesnt.
You're basically saying that Robinson played on much better teams. He did. I don't see how Santo should be penalized for playing on crappy teams. Robinson had a great world series but he sure as hell didn't win the series for the Orioled single handedly. In the regular season he was barely above average offensively and defensively '70 isn't even one of his top 5 seasons. Boog Powell, Don Buford, and Frank Robinson were far more important to the Orioled than Robinson. So were Jim P
by VS on Feb 27, 2007 4:33 PM CST up reply actions
Bah, hit 'post' by accident
I don't see how giving individual players credit for a team achievement makes sense. Santo should not be penalized because he was not fortunate enough to be on a World Series winner.
by VS on Feb 27, 2007 4:36 PM CST up reply actions
What the hell!!
Too bad for Ronnie
by rynofan23 on Feb 27, 2007 3:23 PM CST reply actions
HOF Response
"Through three elections for players, the process reinforces the selections of the BBWAA, even though Veterans Committee members are giving more consideration -- nearly six votes per player ballot -- than ever before. The process has a 98-percent participation rate, which even exceeds the high participation standard of the BBWAA. The process shows that a 75-percent threshold is extremely difficult to attain and that election to the Baseball Hall of Fame remains the greatest honor in the game, and highly selective."
Obviously, the mere fact that there has been 3 votes and not a single election to the HOF says that the process is flawed. As it stands now, there is absolutely no reason to even cast ballots. If the HOF doesn't realize that the technique being used will never accomplish any election then it will continue to be an embarrassment to baseball. It's time for Selig to step in and fix the injustice.
I seriously...
Honestly, as noted above or in another post, Ron is, bare MINIMUM, one of the 10 greatest third-basemen in baseball's 100+ year history. Minimum. Some would put him top 5 or 6 or 7.
How on God's green earth can a man who is one of the 10 best to ever play his position NOT make the Hall of Fame?
Meanwhile, how many first basemen are in? Outfielders? Pitchers?
The Hall should, quite simply, stand for excellence at your position and your contribution to the legacy and history of baseball. If that's not Ron Santo, I don't know what is.
Then again, Ron has some good company on the outside...Buck O'Neill still isn't in the Hall, either. I'd rather throw my name in with Buck O'Neill than those grab-asses who failed to vote for Ron (or, frankly, ANYONE) again this year.
If I ever meet Joe Morgan, I'm slapping him across the face and telling him that the Big Red Machine was an overrated piece of shit....
This is pathetic
Fuckin' speechless.
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 27, 2007 4:04 PM CST reply actions
Santo needs to go back on the real ballot
by miltowncubbie on Feb 27, 2007 4:07 PM CST reply actions
Santo..
Again, I'm not saying Santo is or isn't a Hall of Famer, but people need to take a step away from their computer when they recommend a revision of the HoF rules.
DmL
I sure hope nobody forgets that Jack Ass
by relaxal on Feb 27, 2007 4:17 PM CST reply actions
I'll personally be there
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 27, 2007 4:19 PM CST up reply actions
Morgan
DmL
Ron
The thing is
The diabetes thing, yeah it shouldn't be the reason why Santo gets in the HOF but you have to remember the toll it took on him and his numbers. What could he have accomplished if he hadn't had diabetes? Kirby Puckett got in the hall with marginal numbers and a short career because the voters took into account what effect glaucoma(?) had on his career and his numbers. I think if that would be done for Santo he would get in instantly.
So, anyone who thinks Santo has marginal numbers really hasn't looked at the context he put them up in, and if another player gets voted in because or in spite of his special circumstances then why not Ronnie?
Spot on about context.
There was a time, perhaps brief, during Santo's career where you could have reasonably argued that he was the best player in baseball.
I sincerely ask...
For one thing...
and another thing!
Just because someone writes about baseball for a living, it does not make them an expert on baseball. If they all were, then Ron would be in.
Another Buck O'neil
Sick.
by Floyd on Feb 27, 2007 5:00 PM CST reply actions
My comments to the Veterans committee
Yet another example of baseball looking foolish
In the article Bauman says:
The article continues:
So, using this logic, the Veterans Committee will NEVER elect anyone because the candidate was not "good/popular" enough for the writers during that period of eligibility.
The Veterans Committee would be saying "Hey writers, you missed one but we covered for you!" The entire concept of the Veterans Committee is flawed.
You know...
In all honesty, what is the Hall of Fame?
Answer: A Tourist Destination. A museum. Nothing more, nothing less.
Honestly, if the Hall of Fame is so stupid as to A) hurt its box office, B) offend the very fans who support it, and C) miss an opportunity to make a special induction weekend even more special by denying Ron Santo (or Gil Hodges, or Jim Kaat) induction, who needs them?
I'm made from a personal perspective that Ron is not in the Hall of Fame, because it would mean so much to him and all his fans.
But historically, induction into the Hall of Fame means absolutely nothing - Ron is, was, and will be (for quite some time, at least) one of the 10 greatest third-basemen in baseball's long history. There is simply no denying that, Hall of Fame be damned.
But isn't this what baseball has been doing?
B) "offend the very fans who support it" - already doing that with the proposed exclusive Extra Innings deal.
C) "miss an opportunity to make a special induction weekend even more special by denying Ron Santo (or Gil Hodges, or Jim Kaat) induction" - this would be something special for the fans (see above for why this never entered their heads)
Sure...
But for a museum and tourist attraction, who's SOLE goal is the preservation of baseball history and entertainment of baseball fans to deny entrance to a player that nearly 70% of its existing members (not to mention some of baseball's foremost historians, statisticians, etc.) believe belong? That's ludicrous.
That's like all the artists who have painting in the Art Institute getting to vote on new inductees, and Dali being denied a chance to have his works hung because, while 70% of the artists believe he was a great painter, Matisse & Monet and a couple other painters are pissy and exclusive and only want people to see their paintings, and not the paintings of anyone else.
Rational, logical, emotional -
For what it’s worth, here are some links to a few noted authorities in the baseball world; and Sam Reich, is also a noted authority as well as expert on the HoF Veteran’s Committee procedure.
Sam’s website also has an informative video clip about the Veteran’s Committee voting procedure and he makes some interesting points for the future.
Waiting for Cooperstown: Baseball’s Veterans (1901-1972)by Sam Reich, 2006.
http://www.waitingforcooperstown.com/players.htm
Please note the name of the player at the TOP of Sam’s list for HoF Veteran’s Committee election: Mr. BleedCubbieBlue – Ron Santo!
SamCast Episode 01
"Flaws in the System?"
"No one should have a monopoly on the
Hall of Fame. If I were the emperor of
baseball, the process would be expanded."
- Sam Reich
And for what it’s worth, Part two – Check out Bill James viewpoints about the HoF:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Santo
Already updated on Wikipedia! :
In 2005, he came within eight votes of election to the Baseball Hall of Fame by the Veterans Committee, and in 2007 he came within five votes. Bill James, arguably baseball's most respected statistical guru, feels Santo's elevation to the Hall of Fame is long overdue.
Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame – Baseball, Cooperstown, and the Politics of Glory (Paperback), 1995, 464 pages; Previously published as The Politics of Glory by Bill James.
by hellfreezesoverwaittillnextyear on Feb 27, 2007 5:22 PM CST reply actions
I feel bad for Ron,
by deadcatbounce on Feb 27, 2007 5:45 PM CST up reply actions
Note to Veterans Committee
About your note to the
Veterans Committee.........Amen.
You know what?
Clearly, this page was less a place to leave comments, as a place for them to collect a mailing list. Sneaky bastards.
Yes
by frustratedfan on Feb 27, 2007 5:49 PM CST up reply actions
I agree
by Scott @ Bleed Cubbie Blue on Feb 27, 2007 5:51 PM CST up reply actions
Another eloquent and persuasive appeal
Ron Santo: The Most Eligible Player Not In Cooperstown
Sunday, May 14 2006 @ 11:32 AM EDT
Contributed by: Troy Clarke
http://www.cubshub.com/article.php?story=2006051411321650
For those people including BCBers who have not accepted the fact that Ron belongs in Cooperstown, perhaps you never had the pleasure of seeing Ronnie play. If you would have, you would have seen a man with Type 1 diabetes charging a ball in the heat of the astroturf carpet on a plus 100 degrees day in torturous St. Louis - collapsing as he missed the attempt to field a ball! Well, you might also say, ‘so what's your point?!’ ‘What's the relevancy, and consideration for his having played with diabetes?’
My short answer: Ron Santo still performed at an All Star caliber of play, plus never made this an excuse, and hid this from the fans, and media until later in his career. Ron Santo epitomizes the stellar character as well as courage, and determination of any Hall of Fame player – bar none!
Oh and by the way - the heel clicking continued at the request of Leo Durocher, after Ronnie's initial spontaneous exhibition of pure joy and exhilaration at finally tasting the Cubbies newfound success in 1969. Now, how ironic that Ron's 1969 airborne legs movement of celebration could possibly be considered a negative by some of his contemporaries!
How many of us would not want to click our heels with joy, when the Cubbies finally arrive as World Series Champions again?!!! I know that Ronnie would love to taste that victory, probably even more than his HoF election.
by hellfreezesoverwaittillnextyear on Feb 27, 2007 5:50 PM CST reply actions
Blowing in the Wind
Dylan was not singing about Ronnie, but protesting the times of the Sixties -war, poverty, prejudice.
However, with apologies to all people-first movements, his third verse hit quite a chord with me today:
How many years can a mountain exist,
before it is washed to the sea?
How many years can some people exist,
before they're allowed to be free?
And how many times can a man turn his head,
and pretend that he just doesn't see?
The answer my friend is blowing in the wind,
the answer is blowing in the wind.
Are you listening Mr. Selig?
by hellfreezesoverwaittillnextyear on Feb 27, 2007 6:10 PM CST reply actions
If
Hate to pick on this topic...
Each player should be looked at individually, and not in reference to players in (or out, for that matter) of the Hall of Fame. That's the big problem in baseball's Hall of Fame - there are probably guys who look at Ron and think, "well, he may be worthy, but I think Gil Hodges, or (fill in the blank) should go in before Ron does" or some other such nonsense. And guys who love Nellie Fox (who to me is a Hall of Famer) or Brooks Robinson feel like arguments that state "X is in so Santo should be in" slights Player X, and they vote against Santo.
Look at Santo's numbers and career. Comparatively to all players, one of the greatest third basemen of all time. He belongs in.
This same problem happens in the NFL Hall of Fame with Art Monk....to me, Monk is a sure thing Hall of Famer. But guys look at him, then look at guys playing today (in a much different offensive football era) and say "well, if we let Monk in, we'll have to let in all these guys". That's not the right way to look at it at all, and it stops the Halls of Fame from recognizing those greats who deserve to be recognized.
Nellie Fox
by kerrysotherwife on Feb 27, 2007 11:10 PM CST up reply actions
strike against him...
The passion and compassion of BCB
Just in case anyone is keeping score: This diary's Comments through 6:27 PM (CST) totalled 148, which represents 18.5 comments per hour, or 0.308 comments per minute (just in case there are any other Standard Charters in the BCB community).
Al, is this a BCB record? Should Bud Selig be delivered all of our comments individually?
Perhaps the sun did not shine in '69, but we all know it was obliterated from the skies over Chicago, Scottsdale, and all of BCB-land today :(
by hellfreezesoverwaittillnextyear on Feb 27, 2007 6:48 PM CST reply actions
Bud Selig...
Complain to Dale Petroskey, the neanderthal head of the organization, for setting up a voting process doomed to fail.
We've had more comments (notably, almost 750 of them during that 18-inning game in Houston last year), but this is a really nice and lively discussion thread on a topic that is close to the hearts of many of us.
Petrosky
Also worth noting, Joe Morgan is on WGN right now and has said every time he gets to vote on the veterans committee, he votes for ten people, including Ron Santo.
DmL
What's the old line...
I don't suppose
by deadcatbounce on Feb 27, 2007 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
This is absolutely ridiculous!
"Keeping Ron Santo out of the Hall of Fame is a complete disgrace to all of the Hall's members. In regards to his play at his position (3B) and in the contributions he has given to Major League Baseball throughout his entire life. Statistically speeking there is absolutely no excuse for Ron to not be in the Hall of Fame. From a compassionate and caring commentator, there is no reason to keep him out of the Hall of Fame. There is just no explanation to this. I know that this will probably mean nothing to any of you who read this, but this baseball fan is seriously questioning the integrity of all of you o the committee. There is absolutely no evidence shown that should keep Ron Santo out of the Hall of Fame. In fact until Ron Santo is inducted into the Hall of Fame, I will be forced to consider it the Hall of Shame, as should you. This is a complete disgrace! "
It is completely ludicrous that they can keep him out. I have lost all respect for the members of the committee.
Keith Olberman did it on MSNBC
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Feb 27, 2007 8:01 PM CST reply actions
It's been said before
I don't buy that logic. I think each player should be looked at for his own merits, not based on whether he played on a team with a lot of other HOFers.
I'm not going to read every comment....
What teammate..
by santo for prez on Feb 27, 2007 9:03 PM CST up reply actions
Don Young, for one
Really...
by santo for prez on Feb 28, 2007 12:58 AM CST up reply actions
Your heart on your sleeve
Mr. Santo was a very good player, no question. But if this guy were a live-long Atlanta Brave or St. Louis Cardinal, there would not be any of the hand wringing we are seeing here today. For 15 years he was not voted in by the writers. Now, he has been passed over by the veterans. It may be time to admit, however painfully, that he is not a hall of famer. It may suck, it may not be fair, but it is what it is.
Unfortunately, I believe part of the reason that he is not getting inducted is that he was not well liked by the media or some of his players. None of us know what went on in the clubhouses, or in the dugout, but it seems clear he is reaping what he sowed during his career. Yes, there are other "bad guys," "hot-heads", "asses" in the HOF. But most of them had the benefit of having gaudy numbers on the field, and winning batting titles, championships and MVP awards will overshadow the reputation of having a bad attitude.
Gaudy Numbers
Does the Hall of Fame have a standard? Yes. It is established by looking at who is in the Hall of Fame and who is not. Under this standard, Santo (and Blyleven) are Hall of Famers -- whether or not the people who select the Hall of Fame are too stupid to see this.
Ultimately it brings into question the validity of the entire Hall of Fame.
by frustratedfan on Feb 28, 2007 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Validity
There are several players who likely should not be in the Hall, who got in because they were "Friends of Ted Williams" or hit a major home run in a clutch moment. The Hall of Fame is supposed to be exclusionary. Otherwise, it is simply the "Hall of Really Good."
Your reasoning that the players don't understand the era is flawed. Many of these players participated in the era when offense was more stagnant. They understand that Santo was facing Koufax and Gibson. But the point is that they don't think he deserves the honor. You may disagree, but you don't have a vote.
How Many
As for the part about lack of understanding of the era, we will have to agree to disagree. You hear quote like "he didn't have a high enough average" or "he didn't have a big home run season". The problem is that, in the context of his era, he did have big home run seasons and he did have a high average.
As for whether or not I have a vote, that's really irrelevant. The point is that a standard has been established for entry in the Hall of Fame. Applying this standard objectively, compels the admission of Santo the HoF. That the voters are too stupid to understand the standard (and I am smart enough to understand the standard) isn't my problem.
by frustratedfan on Feb 28, 2007 1:10 PM CST up reply actions
You DO remember
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Feb 28, 2007 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
Matt
Anything from Im not a Cubs fan too one person went as far as saying I was a Cardinal fan.
Look, bottomline is this. Like it or not and in this case its not, Ron Santo is not in the Hall of Fame. Am I sorry he's not inducted of course I am.
Am I surprised he wasnt inducted..Not at all.
Well...
I brought up the fact that Mr. Santo was very cocky during his playing days
...if cockiness is the best argument anyone can come up for him not being in the Hall than it is pretty lame. The Hall of Fame is not the Hall of Morality and literally dozens of players in the Hall have been readily inducted despite being worse human beings than Ron.
Channeling VS here
We're all human beings, and we make mistakes.
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 28, 2007 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
The Cub Reporter
http://mvn.com/mlb-cubs/2007/01/16/why-ron-santo-belongs-in-the-hall-of-fame-part-1/
http://mvn.com/mlb-cubs/2007/01/17/why-ron-santo-belongs-in-the-hall-of-fame-part-2/
http://mvn.com/mlb-cubs/2007/01/18/why-ron-santo-belongs-in-the-hall-of-fame-part-3/
Thanks.....
Santo was my favorite player
But given all that, the man should have been in the Hall years ago. It's not the Hall of Congeniality.
by TR on Feb 27, 2007 10:18 PM CST reply actions
According to David Kaplan
I went to work at 2 today. My coworkers saw my face and knew the news.
by kerrysotherwife on Feb 27, 2007 11:08 PM CST reply actions
I'm actually going to call
Couldn't have said it better.
Santo's great work for diabetes
by TR on Feb 28, 2007 12:36 AM CST reply actions
Stickin' it to Joe Morgan
That is..
by santo for prez on Feb 28, 2007 9:32 AM CST up reply actions
Joe Morgan
A few things
- First off, he has said that he voted for Santo this year and the past two go-arounds. I've got to take him at his word as if the vote really ever came out and he showed that he lied, he'd have some big issues to deal with. Theres no reason that he'd appear on WGN radio if he knew he was going to lie.
- Morgan is correct in the answers that he gave to Bruce Levine, who, in my mind came off as thoroughly unprofessional. Levine is a journalist first and foremost. He did not put aside his being a Cub fan and this is not how a professional journalist acts. It just isn't. More importantly, Levine missed the critical question in his attempt to take cheap shots at Morgan. It may very well be that the players are the best people to make the judgment, however their self interest clearly gets in the way, and why he didn't ask about that is beyond me. Further, if players are going to vote, why just limit it to HoFers? Is there something inherent about being a Hall of Famer that makes you a better judge of ones Hall worthiness?
- As for Morgan's answers, Santo has gotten a significantly higher percentage of votes from the Veterans committee than he ever got from the baseball writers. His highest % from the BBWAA was slightly over 43%. He got 69% from the veterans. If I were Morgan I guess I'd be a little annoyed at the fact that Santo being left out of the Hall is being blamed solely on the Veterans, when he got more support from them than he ever got from the baseball writers.
DmL
good god
Oh fucking please.
Don't defend Morgan, he's a self serving ass and you know it. That whole interview is simply laden with truth and Levine hit it right on the head, if no one is going to get voted in, what the fuck are you doing there in the first place?
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 28, 2007 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
Yes
Bruce Levine is a journalist, not an average Cub fan posting their frustrations on a blog or calling into a radio show. It is his job to control his emotions and in that interview he most certainly did not. Further, as I stated above, it prevented him from asking some very pertinent questions. It also put Morgan on edge and likely kept him from having a meaningful discussion. Levine's meaningful points got lost in the venom that he was spewing. I've heard a half dozen radio guys and read another few articles broaching the topic. Levine did it like a total amateur.
DmL
so because
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 28, 2007 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
It's all PR
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 28, 2007 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
Don't underestimate
by santo for prez on Feb 28, 2007 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
he knows more than
by Faith plus 1 on Feb 28, 2007 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
Huh?
Levine's whole point was that earlier in the call Morgan admitted that he knew nothing of some of the executives on the ballot. The of course Morgan tries to say that's not what he said. His point was that Morgan's stand that the VC somehow has some omniscience in the game of baseball is false. I'm not a big fan of Levine, but I think he was just trying to get Morgan to be honest for once.
by jolietconvict on Mar 1, 2007 8:11 AM CST up reply actions
I heard this
That's fine, but it fails to take into account that players on the VC are not voting just on players that they played against. Quite the contrary, they are voting on all players. 30 of the 61 HOF members of the Veterans Committee either played in a different era, played in the other league while Santo was active, or had a small overlap with Santo (such as Winfield and Schmidt who overlapped the very tail end of his career). Using "Sean Logic" how are they capable of judging?
by frustratedfan on Feb 28, 2007 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
Not only that...
by jolietconvict on Feb 28, 2007 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
changes may be coming
""The board has always wanted to watch the process for three cycles before discussing any possible changes," said Jane Forbes Clark, the chairwoman of the Hall of Fame. "We will be evaluating the process and its trends at our next meeting, on March 13, and discussing whether there should be any changes in the voting process." "
Nonsense
by frustratedfan on Feb 28, 2007 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
You should read the whole article
I think the Hall will change some of the system. God, most of the voters don't even know who half the people are. How do players not vote for Marvin Miller?
Lies lies and more lies
The only area MLB has been ahead of the curve has been in developing additional revenue streams for the clubs. Just like the steroid issue, they just don't get it.
Am I being partial...
As many of you know, when I was deployed to Iraq last year, I was stationed with a lot of people from Minnesota and Wisconsin. After reading a lot of the comments against Ron Santo being inducted to the HOF, I shot out some emails to these people. I also called an acquaintance who is a pretty big time bookie, in fact if some of you are gamblers you may have used his 800 number in the past as he also has a huge client base in Chicago.
I asked these people for an opinion on this since they are not Cub fans at all. The majority of these people were in agreement that he was a great ballplayer. A couple of them didn't know who he was. The person that I would tend to appreciate as an expert on this matter is the bookie. This guy is knowledgeable on every team over the last 35 years or so. He can rattle of stats and players like you couldn't believe. He said he thinks it is a disgrace to the system that Santo has been held out.
Everyone has their own opinion and they are entitled to that. I am just glad that outsiders feel the same way about this as I do. Maybe they are wrong as well, I am just glad to know that my judgement has not been clouded on this just beause I am a die-hard Cub's fan.
by santo for prez on Feb 28, 2007 12:48 PM CST reply actions
Poll on ESPN
Do we enjoy
Thanking me for my comments.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Feb 28, 2007 1:05 PM CST reply actions
HOF contact info
I intend to email them right away. As a suggestion, I'd not get to furious with them. You're far more likely to get them to listen to you if you avoid foul language and state your argument in a civil manner.
i emailed
by santo for prez on Feb 28, 2007 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
Arrrrgggghhhhh ...
by Littlerock Rynofan on Feb 28, 2007 3:21 PM CST reply actions
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