Guess what? After a month Wood's arm is sore

by JFCubFan on Mar 15, 2007 7:06 PM CDT Comment 42 comments

Lou announced this afternoon after the Seattle game that Wood is suffering some soreness in his triceps and will be out of the ST rotation for a few days.

Read all about it here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/specials/spring_training/2007/03/15/wood.setback/ index.html

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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sonofabitch

n/t

Hey Lou, we're long overdue.

by deadcatbounce on Mar 15, 2007 7:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Again.

Oh, well. Back to the proverbial drawing board.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 15, 2007 7:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Certainly

has less impact than in years past, but with Wuertz still not throwing either, that's probably two of the three best relievers on the team who won't be ready to go when the season starts. We're looking at an Opening Day bullpen of:

Dempster
Howry
Eyre
Cotts
Ohman
Guzman/Miller??
Cherry???

That's not nearly as impressive as the thoroughly unimpressive bullpen they were set to begin the season with anyway.

There's one guy (Howry) in the bullpen that I'd want to have the ball in a tight game. If Wood and Wuertz were healthy, there would have been 3, which isn't great, but it's something you can live with.

by Maddog on Mar 15, 2007 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If...

... Wood and Wuertz are both not ready to go, I assume Cherry has a pretty good shot at making the roster.

I realize spring stats don't mean much, but sometimes someone like this does surprise during March and goes on to become an effective major league pitcher.

I sure hope he does exactly that.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 15, 2007 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cherry

has been pretty decent in his minor league career. I'd expect he could put up relatively decent numbers as a major leaguer.

However, my concern about his spring stats isn't so much that they're just spring stats so much as when he's gotten them. He's pitched the 9th inning and has seen competition, quite frankly, that's younger and more inexperienced than he is. He should be dominating those kinds of hitters. I'd like to see what he can do against some MLB hitters and I expect we'll see him get in a game or two earlier than the 9th pretty quickly.

by Maddog on Mar 15, 2007 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would agree, and also...

... he's likely to be one of the last cuts, which means that as the spring goes on, he'll see major league hitters later in the game, if that's where he's brought in.

I would think Lou would want him to face major league hitters, and soon.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 15, 2007 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Interestingly

This could come as a roundabout good thing for the Cubs if they perform.

Assuming Prior is not ready for opening day and I'm thinking that's 90 percent sure right now.

We can get Miller in the rot to start.

Guzman in the pen to start.

That would give us more time to see if Prior can get back to close to being in shape before we make any decisions long term this seasom.

May 1st comes aroumd. We know if Prior has bounced back and then can make a decision.

For Cub fans spring training combines the eternal hope of spring with the irrational belief in the impossible.

by kerrysotherwife on Mar 15, 2007 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is this..

Supposed to suprise anyone? I mean c'mon it's just some soreness. Given his past, I can see the worry.. But did you guys honestly think he would have 0 setbacks after pitching so little.

Just some soreness. I'm not gonna blow it out of proportion. Just take it for what it's worth.

And if he had been stuggling during spring training like Prior, I would understan all the moaning and groaning, but that's just not the case.

by Patblue on Mar 15, 2007 7:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

not just soreness.

It's a strain, which, by definition, is a tear in the muscle. On his pitching arm.

by Maddog on Mar 15, 2007 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

True.

I think when any of us hears "tear", we automatically think "surgery". There are degrees of strain, some more mild than others.

For example, I have a torn ligament on my finger. But I do not need surgery, and it will heal on its own. Obviously this isn't comparable to a major league pitcher trying to pitch, but the point is, strains (tears) can be of varying severity.

Also remember that due to the federal HIPAA laws, the Cubs may not legally be able to say anything even if they wanted to.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 15, 2007 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

federal HIPAA laws?

by DTJchris on Mar 15, 2007 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Health Insurance Portability and Accountability...

...Act.

The upshot: it has certain restrictions about what employers can and cannot disclose about employee's health.

The new Collective Bargaining Agreement between MLB and the players also introduces new restrictions on club disclosure of player injury information.

by cwyers on Mar 15, 2007 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

HIPAA

Yes. Health privacy laws are rather stringent. A company can now say very very little about the health of an employee. They are entitled to absolute privacy if they so chose, and quite frankly, I do not think that their is a provision enabling a company to insist that an employee waive this right. Accordingly, if a player decides to say something, he can. But the Club can't really say anything, and if the player is lying to the outside world, the Club can't correct the lie. I suspect that some of the issues involving Prior relate to HIPAA and what he is preventing the Cubs from saying.

by frustratedfan on Mar 15, 2007 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have a feeling...

... you're right. Prior says he's healthy, but he sure isn't pitching like he is. So something's not being said. We may never know what that "something" is.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 15, 2007 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

One day after he is retired...

which could come sooner rather then later...sadly

by DTJchris on Mar 15, 2007 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know this isn't easy

for Cubs fan to accept, but it is quite possible that Mark Prior is healthy and this bad. It's easier for us to accept an injury, which helps explain why he's so bad and gives us some hope he returns to form at some point, but simply put, I fail to see any incentive for the Cubs to pitch him through an injury at this point. If Prior was feeling pain, he wouldn't be able to hide it from teammates and coaches who know what to look for (we'd probably be able to tell by watching him on television).

That's not to say he's not feeling pain or injured, but I think the likelihood is slim. I think Prior is healthy...AND bad.

Whatever damage he had in his shoulder has likely healed in an improper way and it's limiting his motion. This may not be operable at this point either. It may be. It also may be that he's just had enough damage in there that he's lost his velocity. If that's the case, he'll need to actually learn how to pitch, which he never learned. If that's the case, it's not unreasonable to think he may resurface in 2-3 years as a completely different pitcher and maybe even have a 5-6 year period where he's an effective, perhaps solid, number 3 starter. That is probably the best case scenario for Mark Prior at this point.

I think the people who run the Cubs are incompetent buffoons, but they aren't THIS incompetent. If something was really wrong with Prior they'd be trying to figure out what it is. Since that's not happening, at least to this point, I think we're left with the knowledge that his velocity is likely gone forever and that he'll have to reinvent himself if he ever wants to pitch at this level again.

Sad, I know, but it's probably the most likely scenario at this point.

I don't think Mark Prior will be a Cub on May 15th. They'll give him some time to see if he comes around, but I think they'll release him on or around the 15th of May.

by Maddog on Mar 15, 2007 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Beyond the shoulder problem...

... I think the injury to his elbow when Brad Hawpe hit him in 2005 did more damage than we could have imagined.

At the time it seemed as if that could be season-ending. Yet he came back in a month. Maybe he changed something in his delivery at that time which affected his shoulder AND his elbow.

Now, if he has to do what you suggest -- which is to reinvent himself, taking maybe two or three years, why couldn't he do this in the Cubs' minor leagues, rather than for someone else.

Curt Simmons is an excellent comp here. He was a young power pitcher for the Phillies, got hurt, came back at a slightly lower level, then got hurt again. It took him about three or four years to return to a starting rotation, but after he did he had some fine years in his early and mid 30's for the Cardinals, helping them win the 1964 pennant when he was 35.

Simmons wound up throwing 3348 career innings (84th on the all-time list) and went 193-183 with a 3.54 ERA. I could see Prior doing something like that.

And why not as a Cub?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Mar 15, 2007 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're right.

You can look at Mark Prior's first 9 starts in 2005 (prior to the broken elbow) and he was as dominant as he was in 2003. In fact (I looked this information up the other day actually), Before getting hit by that line drive in 2005 he was averaging 15.4 pitches per inning. After coming back it was up to 17.7. His control was shot, he had lost some velocity. In 2006, it got even worse and he was up to about 19+ pitches per inning.

It's very accurate to say that most damaging injury to Prior has been the broken elbow. Immediately after he returned we saw the same stuff we saw in 2006 and same stuff we're seeing now.

Why not for the Cubs? I don't think it's a big deal if it is with the Cubs or not with the Cubs, but it's a long-term investment if Prior does need to re-invent himself. It will take upwards of 3 years and maybe even 4 for it to be at the point where he could consistently get MLB hitters out again. And the upside is that of a middle of the rotation starter. Is it worth the investment knowing that the farm system should produce someone who is more than capable of being a mid-rotation pitcher?

by Maddog on Mar 16, 2007 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree

When I saw that line drive hit Prior's elbow I thought it was a career ender right there. Still is possibly, just took an extra 2-3 years.

Well, sometimes nothin is a real cool hand.

by wicubfan on Mar 16, 2007 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

By the end of 05

If I remember right after about a month or so Prior seemed much better in 05.

I had a new thought today on the whole thing. I wonder if all the reaction to him being held back a week made Pinella push him into that first start.

I hope not. I don't want our manager ever doing one thing just because the fans or media thinks it should be so.

(as a factor yes but never ever have a manager give in to fan pressure. Another sport but if Lovie listened to the fans and media we would have not made it to the Super Bowl if he had gone to Griese)

An example last year is people called Hendry a wimp not to fire Baker. Actually he was not being wimpy. Being wimpy is doing something you feel wrong because of pressure.

For Cub fans spring training combines the eternal hope of spring with the irrational belief in the impossible.

by kerrysotherwife on Mar 16, 2007 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're right.

I wasn't trying to say that Wood may need surgery and I doubt he does. "Mild strain" is what I've heard, which is a Grade 1 Tear, or also known as a mild tear. A tear that is not visible to the naked eye. This will heal undoubtedly and it's in a spot where it shouldn't have any impact on his pitching. My guess is that he'd pitch through this with success if this happened during the regular season.

But it is more than just a sore arm. I don't expect him to be out much longer than they said, but he hasn't pitched in nearly a week and we're probably looking at 2 weeks without pitching in a game before he goes back out there. That means about 10 days left in spring training. I don't see how he's going to be ready to go.

by Maddog on Mar 15, 2007 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am no pro athlete

But I actually have strained and torn the same thing at different times. A strain is usually a step before an actual tear.

I strained my hamstring and tore it on two seperate occasions.

Believe me there's a difference.

For Cub fans spring training combines the eternal hope of spring with the irrational belief in the impossible.

by kerrysotherwife on Mar 15, 2007 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Look...

I'm not going to look this up on Google, but a quick search by you will show that a strain and a tear are the same exact thing. The definition of muscle strain is an acute tear in the muscle. There are 3 grades: Grade 1, Grade 2, and Grade 3. These are often referred to as mild, moderate and severe.

A strain is a tear and is always a tear. You cannot strain a muscle without tearing it.

by Maddog on Mar 15, 2007 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

By the way,

in sports, they often choose the word "strain" because it implies less damage than "tear" to the average fan. They do this for a reason and one former NHL team doctor spoke candidly about how sports doctors hide and mask the real injuries players have. Basically, any injury that is reported in the media is about 10 times or more worse than what is reported. It's actually perfectly OK for a doctor to refer someone's arm which hanging by one muscle fiber and that's it (no bone...nothing, but one fiber stretched to the floor) as a strain.

And they do this ALL OF THE DAMN TIME!

by Maddog on Mar 15, 2007 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes

but by your standards you could have one muscle fiber broken and you'd be yelling, "he tore his arm! he tore his arm! he'll never be the same!".

You tear muscle fibers every time you exercise. If it hurts, they call it a minor strain, and figure there was some minor muscle damage. It does not necessarily mean there was any damage to the attachment complex. You could strain your hamstring playing basketball and go out and play the next day.

If they are calling it a minor strain, and they are being truthful (the biggest if here), then this is a small setback. Calling it a tear, while technically accurate, is inflammatory, if you ask me. The last thing they need to do with Kerry Wood is make things sound worse than they are.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Mar 16, 2007 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But...

that's not at all what I have done in this instance, is it, Tomas? I said earlier that if this happened during the season he'd more than likely have not skipped a beat and played through it. I haven't cried out about anything other than strains are tears. A mild strain is a tear in the muscle. I don't need the Cubs to downplay this so that other fans are pleased. It's a tear. Call it a tear.

They did the same exact thing with Prior and his moderate strain of his subscapularis. The interesting thing being that Jose Contreras was diagnosed with a moderate tear of his subscapularis a couple years earlier and Prior missed almost exactly the same amount of time Contreras did because they had the same exact injury.

This is in a place in Woody's arm that shouldn't really affect his pitching so why on earth would I cry out that he's done or whatever?

by Maddog on Mar 16, 2007 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

According to my doctor

According to my doctor there is a difference why sometimes its called a tear and not a strain.

Technically a strain is a tear you're right but there's still a difference.

If you, me and Al went out and injured our hamstrings millimeters of difference could decide what our doctors say it is.

And it would be a crazy coincidence wouldn't it that 3 members of the same group strained their hamstrings on the same day.

Especially since tonight I'm just going to a night before St. Paddy's Day party. Not planning on anything strenous.

For Cub fans spring training combines the eternal hope of spring with the irrational belief in the impossible.

by kerrysotherwife on Mar 16, 2007 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And

Despite our arguments I wouldn't wish a strained, torn or pulled hamstring on anyone. It's a big fat pain in the asterisk. Coming back from it to be a regular (albeit quite odd) person is difficuilt enough. Coming back to be a major leaguer I can't even imagine.

I know someone who had the same injury as Kerry to his elbow (the one Kerry had to require TJ surgery) and he has told me about the recovery and PT he had to go through to just be a regular person. To describe it as reattaching your elbow is really not much of an exaggeration.

A lot of Cub fans know a lot about shoulders and elbows. Don't you wish we didn't have reason to?

For Cub fans spring training combines the eternal hope of spring with the irrational belief in the impossible.

by kerrysotherwife on Mar 16, 2007 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

There is a difference

between the medical care your friend likely received vs. the medical care a professional athlete receives.

I broke my ankle in a car accident several years ago (foot turned to the right at a 90 degree angle). It required 6 hours of surgery, 14 screws, a 4 inch metal plate on the inside of my right ankle and an 8 inch plate on the outside of my right ankle. My ankle to this day is still swollen and if weren't the running I do (I began this after the accident)--at least 5 miles per day--my ankle gets stiff and it's painful to move anywhere. By the time I wake in the morning, it's stiff and hurts to walk at all until I get it stretched out.

A wide receiver for the Iowa Hawkeyes had the same exact injury to his ankle, which required the same number of screws and two plates (inside and outside of his ankle). Just 4 weeks later this hardware was removed and he was playing football again.

I was in a boot 8 weeks after the surgery and it took me 6-8 months to get the strength back in my leg. And if I tried to turn on the dime like a wide receiver does, my ankle would probably shatter.

The only difference between our injuries was how they occurred and how they were taken care of (he received the best medical care possible and I received less than stellar medical care).

But, yes, the injuries we often discuss are mighty painful and the normal amount of pain these pitchers go through is probably more pain than most of us could handle in the first place...even if they're healthy they have an enormous amount of pain in their arms that we don't have.

Would I rather not know about them? No. I'm glad I've learned what these injuries are.

by Maddog on Mar 17, 2007 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your doctor

isn't a very good then. If he/she is telling you that there is a difference, he is not a doctor you should be allowing to take care of you. There is absolutely no difference between a strain and tear. A Grade 1 strain is also always a Grade 1 Tear...same with Grade 2 and Grade 3.

You're right in that our doctors may decide to call it a strain while another calls another one a tear, but there is no difference. A strain is and always has been a tear. You cannot strain a muscle without tearing it. By definition, if you've strained the muscle, you've torn it. The grades of the strain/tear are the degree of severity (Grade 3 being a complete rupture). If you remember, Nomar strained his groin in 2005. He had a Grade 3 strain and was also referred to often even by the Cubs medical staff as a ruptured muscle (tear).

Millimeters and inches and yards don't matter here. A strain is a tear and a tear is a strain. They are the same EXACT thing.

by Maddog on Mar 17, 2007 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like Woody, but...

the Cubs should just call it quits with him and Prior. Wood's arm is shot. Prior is a head case. What kind of an excuse is saying that you were stepping to far to avoid a hole on the mound? A pathetic kind IMHO. Be done with them. Onward to a new Cub future.

The dumbest people I know are those who know it all.

by madog93 on Mar 15, 2007 8:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm beginning to feel that way, too

The Cubs have had hundreds of pitchers over the years, none of whom have brought with them all the drama (and wasted money) that these two have. Bring me back the boring old pitchers like Rick Reuschel. They weren't flashy, they didn't strike out 20 in a game or appear on the cover of Sports Illustrated, but they just went out year after year, throwing 200 or more innings, getting guys out, never missing a start, never complaining about their arms.

"Hello again, everybody. Harry Caray from Wrigley Field on a beautiful day for baseball."

by danimal15 on Mar 15, 2007 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Isn't the money

spent already? I mean, where's the harm in keeping them on the DL if they're hurt, and pitching in Iowa if they're rehabbing? If we could get out of the contracts I'd see some kind of benefit, but if we dump 'em then sure as rain they'd go someplace else and pitch horribly until they played the Cubs, then give their last great innings against us.

I mean, as long as we're paying 'em, what's the harm in keeping them on the DL as necessary. If they improve and can be of help to the team, then that's just extra bonus points.

by helen on Mar 15, 2007 9:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

There's no real harm in it,

except we are all sick of that same old story line. When they are officially off the team then the Club can get on with business. It appears that is the way this club is headed anyway.

The dumbest people I know are those who know it all.

by madog93 on Mar 15, 2007 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think this needs to be said...

...but I'll say it anyway: I fail to see how your line of thinking here leads to good baseball decisions.

by cwyers on Mar 15, 2007 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I fail to see,

how hoping for the last 3 years that they are going to be productive members of the staff has been good decision making. I'm blaming it all on the club. I just think as an organization it is time to press on. I'm just glad we appear to be pitching heavy right now. I think Jim Hendry has done a good job of making sure we have a surplus of pitchers, because I think he understands my line of thinking. I don't want to hear one more time that getting Prior or Wood back in June or July will be like making a trade in the middle of the season.

The dumbest people I know are those who know it all.

by madog93 on Mar 15, 2007 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rehab and Triple A

They pay them the money anyway and keeping them rehabbing or in triple A does not hurt the Cubs at all.

If they can make it back it's good and we can throw a parade. If they don't they don't.

Fact is if they can get healthy and near to form this season by the All Star Break even we're in much better shape.

For Cub fans spring training combines the eternal hope of spring with the irrational belief in the impossible.

by kerrysotherwife on Mar 15, 2007 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

With the Cubs luck

With the Cubs luck they'd wind up on the Cardinals and resume their career.

Anyone else have the thought of if Prior can get the velocity going and Kerry is shelved at the start maybe he takes that spot?

I had a nightmare of this scenario.

Fall of 08. Cardinals are in playoffs with Wood and Prior. Sunday afternoon I turn on a football game Bears and Packers. A revitalized Grossman is leading his team to victory.

Problem is the team is the Packers.

All 3 guys some fans wanted to throw in the towel on.

For Cub fans spring training combines the eternal hope of spring with the irrational belief in the impossible.

by kerrysotherwife on Mar 15, 2007 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stop thinking like this!

I say this over and over but there is just too much wasted energy and angst over the disability boys.

If they come through later, fine. We all need to move on from these two characters -- haven't we placed our hopes in this dynamic duo TOO MANY TIMES?

Let's see about the arms we have -- the healthy ones. Prior's a head case. Wood's delivery is going to doom his career, unless he can change it.
(RE: Steve Stone)

So -- move on. Nothing to see (or pitch) here.
No more speculation of 'what should have been.'
It ain't. Forget about them. Let somebody else take a chance -- if either one can pitch for the Devil Rays, great. They're shot in Chicago, and sometimes the only things to do is cut your losses.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Mar 15, 2007 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs