Where's the young talent?

by CubFaninNY on May 30, 2007 9:19 AM CDT Comment 53 comments

I watch alot of MLBTV these days, especially after being disgusted with the Cubs' play and forced to tune in other games. I see a lot of young teams with young players coming up and making an impact. Be it home run hitters or power pitchers, relief and starting, they seem to have it all. The Braves are the obvious first choice, they have new homegrown talent no matter how many they trade away. We all know about the Brewers and their home grown nucleus of young players. The DBacks seem to have a whole flurry of players, as do the Phillies. For some reason the Cubs have zero. We have the Riot, yes, but he's not a power guy. And the pitchers (at least the relief) are all the same: guys with straight fastballs who walk a ton of guys. The supposed power, guys like Pie, are terribly susceptible to sliders in the dirt, they guess fastball and decide to swing before the pitch is thrown. Why is there no big bat in the minors that we can call up? Why do the Cubs always need to go shopping in the FA or trade market? Why don't the guys in the minors produce something?!

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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A couple of things...

First, we do have talented young arms. Guzman and Marmol throw anything but a straight fastball. Their stuff is nasty, and they appear to be getting better at controlling it, too. And Hill and Marshall have looked promising in the rotation. That's 4 quality young guys right there.

Second, on the position player side, we have Murton, Pie, and Theriot. None are known as power guys. But it doesn't matter, because Hendry has blocked any path for a young player to come up and contribute. We have a well-paid veteran for every position on the field, so it's hard for a youngster to get consistent playing time anyway.

The other reason we don't have more young players is because (1) Hendry has done a poor job of evaluating young players and (2) our farm system has not done a good job of developing the players we bring in (because Hendry's hitting philosophy is wrong).

by SouthernCub on May 30, 2007 9:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't think this is comparable.

The Brewers have Rickie Weeks, Prince Fielder, and Ryan Braun. The Diamondbacks have Stephen Drew, Conor Jackson, Chris Young and Carlos Quentin. All of these players were HIGHLY regarded prospects. Not only highly regarded by their teams, but by national scouts and publications such as Baseball America.

Before you counter with the argument that not all good players are highly-touted prospects, I have to say that most nationally top-rated prospects are there for a reason. They are REALLY good. It's been sometime since I've seen a whole lot of Cubs action on those national lists, and not-so-ironically it's been a long time (probably since Prior) since I've seen a prospect come up and make the kind of impact that someone like Prince Fielder has made. Pie is really the only one even remotely close to the top of the list and he's not really THAT close.

I really don't see where you can blame anyone but Jim Hendry and his scouting department for dropping the ball so badly on this. If you have a national consensus top 10 prospect and he turns out to be junk (cough, Corey Patterson) then OK, he's a bust, it happens; however, if you have prospects that can't break the top 75 and they don't pan out either then you have to blame the management. No, I don't believe Theriot, Murton, and Marshall are "panning out". Are they OK? Sure. Are they decent? Yeah. Are they good? Most of the time. Are they players to depend on? I don't think you can.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

by eamuscatuli1881 on May 30, 2007 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marshall

Marshall's not a player to depend on? What, exactly, has he done wrong this season? He has a WHIP of 1.05 and an ERA of 2.70. And he's 24. And last year he showed a good deal of promise. Players don't normally leap fully formed from the minor league system. They require some time to develop and grow. Greg Maddux had an ERA of 5.61 in his first full season in the Big Leagues. And if this Blog had been in place at the time, you can bet that a number of the impatient types (and likely Jim Hendry) would have branded him a "proven" AAAA level player.

The Cubs will not win until the fans develop some patience and grown some brains. Or until the Cub management stops pandering to the "win now" fans.

by frustratedfan on May 30, 2007 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Quick question......

are you still on the Murton bandwagon?

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on May 30, 2007 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure...

what Murton's done to get so much angst. Whenever he's been given sufficient playing time, he's raked at the plate (see second halves of 2005 and 2006). He's playing sparingly this year. He's 25. He's not an all-star, but he's not crap either. And guys with his type of plate discipline tend to develop into good hitters.

Murton may not ever be a good fit with this team unless Soriano can move to RF. But that doesn't mean he's crap.

by SouthernCub on May 30, 2007 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No angst.....

I asked this because "frustrated fan" was a huge fan of Murton.

I personally like him. I think he would be a perfect 4th outfielder for a contender.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on May 30, 2007 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let it go

Your undying faith in the crap produced by the Cub minor league system is a joke. Sean Marshall might be an OK pitcher, but Matt Murton?!? Let it go. Tear down the Corey Patterson poster from your basement wall.

"It's not early anymore" - Sweet Lou

by BlueMike on May 30, 2007 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Answer this

Which player is less valuable long term, Izturis or Murton?

If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on May 30, 2007 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Which item is of less value?

A watermelon rind or 2 large bags or orange peel?

by nickler on May 30, 2007 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Murton

Murton is less valuable now, less valuable then, and less valuable forever. He sucks. But a faction of Cub fans love the guy because he's a cute and cuddly white guy that harkens back memories of Kevin Friggin Orie.

If Murton were Latino or African American, I guarantee you Cub fans would have long forgotten the dude.

"It's not early anymore" - Sweet Lou

by BlueMike on May 30, 2007 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So you are

saying Cub fans are racist? Do you ever think before you open your big mouth? Honest to god you are the most pathetic person I've ever seen.

Just so you know Sweet Lou agrees.

Make this game number 10 for games the Cubs should have won but found a way to lose. - MrDurden, 5-24-07

by sue369 on May 30, 2007 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I'm saying that Murton gets a free pass

because he's a white guy with red hair and freckles.

"It's not early anymore" - Sweet Lou

by BlueMike on May 30, 2007 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually.........

I think some idiot fans are racist. Look at what happened to Jones out in RF last year.

That said, I think the majority of fans like the kid because he is "cuddly" and fan friendly.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on May 30, 2007 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not to mention the

comment that I've seen on numerous blogs including here that Murton and Theroit hustle while Jones is lazy. I'm not saying that Jones hasn't deserved the boos this year but there has definitely been a racial aspect to the treatment he has gotten in Chicago.

by rlpete on May 30, 2007 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's beyond stupid

It's OK to criticize white players but black players get a free pass? Because Jones is playing lousy, it's racist. So the criticism of Barrett is fair because he's fair game. How about all those racist comments about Eyre and Hendry?

There are white racists and black racists and brown racists. But when you generalize, you are using the race card just as ignorantly as you claim is wrong.

If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on May 30, 2007 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Prior, Wood, Murton

Barrett, Eyre, Howry, Hendry.

Yeah, we're a bunch of racist bastards.

Faith Plus One - Contributing Editor -http://www.inaleagueofherown.com

by Faith plus 1 on May 30, 2007 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

20 years

It's been 20 years since the Cubs produced a decent position player. Spare us the lecture on patience. This farm system sucks. They can't even produce a decent bench player.

by cubsbak on May 30, 2007 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the answer to your question

....is pretty obvious.

"Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year" - Sparky Anderson

by MPH73 on May 30, 2007 9:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree with bababenti

Hope I'm not insulting bababenti by saying that.

It seems the Cubs invest mainly in young pitchers, which is what the Twins, Angels, and Marlins do (all of whom have been reasonably successful, or at least compared to the Cubs). We have nice talent there and I can't complain about our farm as evidently Veal, Gallagher and Samartzia are good prospects as well.

The problem is... I don't even know at this point. I think its that damn billy goat.

by nickler on May 30, 2007 10:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

To finish your sentence

The problem is.... when Murton and Theriot are held up as two of your better hitting prospects in what the past 10 years? Both of those guys are complementary players at best.

by rlpete on May 30, 2007 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

BUT

We have supplemented that with excellent free agents: Lee, Ramirez, Soriano. Even DeRosa looks decent.

Pagan is also a decent product of our farm system.

I still am left wondering what is going wrong!

by nickler on May 30, 2007 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't let the facts......

get in the way.....

First, ARAM and DLee were acquired via trade.

Second, Soriano is an excellent FA signing? Early results say no. I am willing to give it more time.

Finally, how can you say DeRosa looks decent? ROFLMAO!!!!! Why pick him up when you had Theriot already? Plus, Hendry picks him up after a career year and overpays in years.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on May 30, 2007 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mark DeRosa

AVG .255 | HR 5 | RBI 21 | OBP .354 | SLG .467

Not great, I'll admit. He does have a decent OBP. Certainly he is better than Izturis and I'd much rather see DeRosa/Theriot out there than Izturis.

Hey, I'm looking for positives here.

by nickler on May 30, 2007 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hendry.....

over paid in $ and years. He was/ is a bad signing.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on May 30, 2007 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let me know how your search

is going. In truth we have selected some guys who were supposed to be bangers. Dopirak and Harvey were both thought to be answers. Both of them are strikeout machines.

And that seems to be the common denominator among our system. We obviously don't prepare the draftees for good plate awareness. Our minor league teams are among the worst in K/BB ratio. We don't seem to have a common thread running throughout the system to prepare the players to become quality hitters. One home run compensates for 25 K's.

We need a quality reorganization of the entire program rather than drafting a Dopirak and expecting him to become the second coming of Ernie Banks.

Perhaps the most telling indictment of the system can best be summed up by just now recognizing that Hill had never been taught a proper slide step. That's unforgivable yet so Cubs.

If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on May 30, 2007 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pagan came to the Cubs from the Mets

he's not from the Cubs farm system.

by Scott on May 30, 2007 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just a comment

most of the young talent is up in the stands.

"Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year" - Sparky Anderson

by MPH73 on May 30, 2007 12:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

half of Murton's hits are swinging bunts

He's not shown much power since 2 years ago, when he was an unknown rookie.

by CubFaninNY on May 30, 2007 12:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Really?

Did you miss the second half of last season, when he hit 319/390/522? I don't understand all the Murton bashing on here lately. Yes, he isn't a superstar, but he's a useful player. After a slow start in April, he's hit 300/382/433 in the month of May. More power would be nice (and is likely forthcoming, based on his history), but an 815 OPS from your 4th OF is pretty good. I'm not worried about Murton's ability to hit going forward.

by mportsch on May 30, 2007 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Likely forthcoming, based on his history????

When has this guy ever hit for power? Am I missing something?? He looks like a slap hitter to me. Too bad he can't play shortstop. He'd be pretty useful if he could.

by cubsbak on May 30, 2007 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Murton is a slap hitter

A bad fielding, one position playing, lousy run producing slap hitter.

"It's not early anymore" - Sweet Lou

by BlueMike on May 30, 2007 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um,

did you miss the part where I mentioned his 319/390/522 second half? I would say that a guy with a 522 slugging percentage is "hitting for power". Maybe you demand more than that, and that's fine, but you can't say he isn't a useful major league player, and I'd like to see another guy classified as a "slap hitter" that can put up a 522 slugging percentage.
His isolated slugging of .203 would put him on par with guys like Austin Kearns, Aubrey Huff, and Nomar Garciaparra (based on their 2006 ISO numbers). The only real question is whether that was a fluke half-season or not. You can't claim he's never hit for power - he has.

by mportsch on May 30, 2007 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm..

Who'm I gonna believe, you or my lying eyes???

The guy has no power and has no ability to drive in runs. He's a slap hitter. And your ridiculous comparisons and your cherry-picked statistics don't convince me otherwise.

by cubsbak on May 30, 2007 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

The strong argument can be made that the league has caught up to Matt Murton. In my view, the guys is VASTLY overrated by Cub fans. The same Cub fans who once upon a time fell in love with Kevin Orie.

Murton sucks. I'm sticking to that argument. I used to think he was the next Dustan Mohr, but now even that is too charitable a description because Murton is more awful than expected in the field.

"It's not early anymore" - Sweet Lou

by BlueMike on May 30, 2007 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

According to you

every opinion you have is a strong argument. History and your lack of proof tell us otherwise. That's why your opinions are irrelevant.

If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on May 30, 2007 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I actually think the Cubs....

have a decent stock of young talent. Marmol, Guzman, Hill, and Marshall all look like they can be above-average major league pitchers. As for position players, Murton and Pagan look like solid 4th outfielders at the least, Theriot is proving to be a useful middle infielder, and the Iowa Cubs have quite a few guys that look ready to contribute at the major league level very soon (Pie, Fontenot, Patterson, and Soto). Even though he has struggled a bit this season, Scott Moore may be ready to contibute in the next year or so also.
At AA, Jake Fox is hitting very well, so it's looking like a matter of figuring out where he can play in the field. Pitchers Mark Holliman and Sean Gallagher have done very well and might be ready to contribute by next year.
Really, I think the Cubs minor league system is producing about as well right now as it has in a long time. I think what you're noticing is the lack of absolute studs coming out of the system, but it's not like those type of guys are all that common around the league anyway. The Cubs have the resources to afford top-notch talent (Lee, Ramirez, Soriano), so a farm system that can produce average to above average major league players is still of definite value.

by mportsch on May 30, 2007 12:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

The pitching prospects are decent but you are a little more optimistic on the hitting prospects. Fontenot is at best a utility player. Patterson seems to be without a position now. If he has to move to the OF, his numbers which looked good at 2B aren't quite as good as a LF or RF. He might be good if he can play CF. Soto looks like a backup catcher based on his bat. Fox at best is a Craig Wilson.

Minor leagues need to develop star players. Complementary players are available every year as free agents. I'd rather have 2 star hitters instead of 6 or 7 complementary players.

by rlpete on May 30, 2007 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Regretably that

speaks for our results. Our development system has taken prospects who would have been very good and turned them into mediocre. We sell the sizzle but prepare the bland.

If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on May 30, 2007 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure

if it is just that the Cubs can't develop players or they can't draft them. I think it's a combination of both. The Cubs have always leaned toward the toolsy type draftees rather than the "MoneyBall"-type players. Theriot is one of the lone exceptions.

The toolsy players have more upside and downside. The Cubs either have an incredible string of bad luck in that their players always fail or they can't develop. I think it's likely a combination of both.

by rlpete on May 30, 2007 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not luck

When you consider the number of prospects that have gone through the system luck cannot be an explanation. We just stink.

If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on May 30, 2007 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This just into the WGN newsroom....

Matt Murton STILL sucks. Details on the WGN 9:00 O'Clock News.

"It's not early anymore" - Sweet Lou

by BlueMike on May 30, 2007 12:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

You are hilarious.

Murton doesn't SUCK... he just isn't the answer and he doesn't fit in with this team. If he could actually play another position, I'd love the guy. Problem is, he can only play LF and we have a much better option out there.

Actually, I do think a small market team would do very well to acquire a guy like him. I think he really does have value, especially to a team like Kansas City, Tampa Bay, Cleveland, or Oakland.

Problem is, KC has very little in the way of talent to offer BACK. Maybe David Riske or someone to bolster the bullpen? Cleveland is not going to trade arms at this point with them being contenders. They are not rebuilding at this point. I don't know much about Oakland and what they'd be willing to give up.

by nickler on May 30, 2007 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nope

Murton does indeed still suck. And there is not one other major league ballclub which would look upon him as a regular left fielder. Not a single bloody one. Kansas City? Nope. Got uber-prospect Billy Butler playing there because right field and 1st base are already gobbled up with Mark Teahan and Ryan Shealy, respectively. Pittsburgh? Ever hear of Jason Bay? Tampa Bay? Ever hear of Carl Crawford, Rocco Baldelli, Delmon Young? Oakland? Ever hear of Nick Swisher?

"It's not early anymore" - Sweet Lou

by BlueMike on May 30, 2007 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

we can send him back to Boston for Matt Clement.

by nickler on May 30, 2007 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Blather Blather Blather

Uhm....Butler got sent back to the minors two weeks ago. He's also been playing 1B because the Royals are starting to sour on Shealy.

Damn those pesky facts that keep getting in the way of your erroneous thoughts!!!

by Scott on May 30, 2007 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Moronapooloza

Unless the Kansas City Royals are looking for a new parking lot attendant, then they have zero interest in Matt Friggin Murton. But keep on trying to persuade yourself on this one.

"It's not early anymore" - Sweet Lou

by BlueMike on May 30, 2007 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are the moron, Mike

I haven't said a thing here about trading Murton. I'm just correcting YET ANOTHER erroneous thought that you pass off as fact without even bothering to look it up.

YOU are the moron who brought up Butler and stated that he's playing for the Royals.

I'm just the person who pointed out that you were wrong.

And, for the record, Shealy is a 27 year old who is currently batting .235 for the Royals with 2 HRs. But in your mind, he's magnificent.

You sir, are an idiot.

And Sweet Lou agrees with me, at least he would if he read your blather. SO I MUST BE RIGHT!!!

by Scott on May 30, 2007 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the farm

has been awful and quite barren since Prior came to the majors and we had the #1 ranked farm system in all of baseball loaded with high upside guys (Prior, Zambrano, Guzman, etc)

a lot of the problem is the absolute MANGLING of top 10 draft picks: Montanez, Harvey, etc have all been supreme busts and when you're picking that high consistently you have to make more of an impact than Prior and nobody else...

also we traded away a decent bit of talent that we've never given time to develop, look around the league...

Reynel Pinto
Ricky Nolasco
Sergio Mitre
Brendan Harris

off the top of my head those guys are all major league caliber players, the problem is we produce far too many MLB-caliber players and not enough STARS and for a team that has a fan base expecting almost every position to be filled with STARS you're never going to have enough time to let those guys take their licks and turn into servicable MLB players (bullpen or utility guys what have you)

the only guys that have made it from the farm system and stuck have been guys that had superstar potential

this fan base and this organization hasn't exhibited the patience for anything else since 2003 and the farm system hasnt been able to produce much STAR potential

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 30, 2007 2:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget Todd Wellemeyer

He's actually starting for the Cardinals tonight,which just shows how they are hurting for starting pitching.

I wonder if they could convince Ankiel back to the mound just to see what would happen.

Check out Road To Wrigley, my NEW Cubs Minor League System website: Road To Wrigley

by jonpyardi on May 30, 2007 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought

he played for the Kansas City Royals.

by nickler on May 30, 2007 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cards

picked him up off waivers about 2 weeks ago.

by Scott on May 30, 2007 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I doubt that the Cubs will

regret letting Harris go. Besides he helped in getting Murton here.

Harris has been traded/released by Washington and Cincinnati since leaving the Cubs. He's started hot for TB this year but I wouldn't hold my breath. Major League caliber is about the best you can say about him.

As for the pitchers, that was a bad deal. The Cubs will probably regret trading 1 or 2 of the 3.

by rlpete on May 30, 2007 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i dont disagree

on Harris

the point is though the development of the farm system in terms of producing "stars" has been almost non-existant

while their's been adequate development of major league caliber players, the fan base AND the organization has NO DESIRE to wait for these players to earn their stripes

they'd prefer to purchase mid level FA's who have "established" themselves

by DartmouthCubsFan on May 30, 2007 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs