Bleed Cubbie Blue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: Wendel Clark Day Is Here Bar-right-arrows



Indefensible

I haven't even read the game thread yet, but I can just imagine what it looks like, over 600 comments after I posted it this morning.

But today's 8-5 loss to the Braves -- one that was, in the proverbial phrase, "not as close as the score indicated", may have at last been a turning point for this troubled franchise.

Or at least, if there is decisive management, it can and will be.

First, I thought of this post title in the early innings when the Cubs' defense was absolutely putrid:

  • Ryan Theriot lost the very first ball hit in the game in the sun. Alfonso Soriano sort of loped in from left field; had he run harder, he might have caught it. No error was charged, and three batters later a run scored.
  • Matt Murton dropped a catchable fly ball in the fourth inning, that Mark DeRosa had called him off, allowing yet another run to score. Now, that's the outfielder's call, in general -- usually, OF have a better shot at a play than a backpedaling infielder -- but if you do that, you damn well better catch the ball.
  • And in the play that likely precipitated the day's big event, the most indefensible thing of all, the fight between Carlos Zambrano and Michael Barrett, Barrett let a catchable pitch from Z get away, and then threw the ball into left field, allowing yet another run to score.
And that run would have been unearned -- and maybe the Cubs would have gotten back into the game -- but it was clear after that incident that the extremely volatile and emotional Zambrano quit. Yes, quit on the team, because after that he gave up three straight solid hits, a single and two doubles, almost as if he were laying the ball right in for it to be hit (and one of the doubles was to Braves pitcher Kyle Davies, who came into this game hitting .067), and there would have been even more runs scored had Soriano not thrown Jeff Francoeur out trying to score.

And after that Z and Barrett got into the aforementioned fistfight in the dugout. Through anecdotal evidence, and Lou Piniella's postgame press conference, here's what must have happened:

Z may have said something to Barrett along the lines of, "If Henry Blanco had been catching me, this wouldn't have happened". Now -- that's not a quote, nor do I have any proof of this. But I can imagine some words like that might have inflamed Barrett to that point; we already know Michael has a temper, and he really would have had to be pushed past the breaking point to slug one of his own teammates. Some reports have Piniella, who is 30+ years older than both Barrett and Zambrano, stepping in to help separate them.

After that, both players were removed from the game -- Z was ready to be taken out anyway, after giving up 13 hits and two walks in five innings, and he was removed for pinch hitter Daryle Ward; Barrett was also removed for Koyie Hill (who was recalled when Blanco was placed on the DL with a herniated disk -- a fairly serious injury), although Hill's presence wasn't announced; I didn't realize Hill was in the game until he batted leading off the 7th inning.

Lou said in his postgame news conference that both players were "sent home", and that the club would "deal with it" on Saturday, and further, that there had been more fighting between the two after they had been sent to the clubhouse.

Well, that's not enough. I know much of the brass is in Arizona getting ready for next week's draft, but Jim Hendry's not leaving for Mesa until Monday.

Jim -- if you're reading this, it's time to make a bold move, time to shake things up, time to tell every single player and coach on this ballclub that "business as usual" (and five losses in a row is NOT good business, is it?) will not be tolerated. We discussed this at length in the bleachers today and here was our consensus.

Call up Omar Minaya and tell him Z's available, and make a deal. Now. Today, if possible, tomorrow, if not. Whatever's gotten into Z's head, it is clear that his time with the Cubs has to be up. And I hate saying that, because we all know the sort of talent Z has, and he just turned 26 today (some birthday, huh?), and he might turn in several more great seasons (although with 1/3 of this year gone and a 5.62 ERA, this year may be a lost one already). Minaya loves Z; the Mets could use him, and he's already hinted that he'd like to sign there next year (as opposed to with the Yankees, where he couldn't bat except during interleague games in NL parks), and the Mets can afford him.

What should the Cubs ask for in return? It's very simple, and in fact, I think the Mets would do this deal. Aaron Heilman and Mike Pelfrey. Heilman is someone Hendry has shown interest in before, and Pelfrey is one of their top pitching prospects. Heilman steps into the Cub rotation, and if he fails, Pelfrey -- who is 23 and has made ten major league starts, including six this year -- could step in instead, with Heilman becoming a setup man, something this club sorely needs.

This club is at a crossroads. When I mentioned making a deal like this to Dave, he said, "Not only for prospects, they need a major league pitcher, too", and he's right, because as bad as this club has been, this season is still salvageable. Trading Z would, in theory, leave the Cubs without a #1 starter -- though Z surely hasn't pitched like a #1 all season. That's why you'd have to get someone with significant ML experience (Heilman), who could start (though he has not started a game since 2005, he surely could. And getting Pelfrey would help the club look forward to 2008 and beyond.

This fight has to be the turning point. From here, either the season deteriorates into something that could be worse than 2006, or a bold move has to be made to say, "We're still out there trying," and further, to say that such things simply will not be tolerated.

Do it, Jim. Call Omar. Deal Z. Put him on a plane tonight. The Mets are at home, it only takes two hours to fly there. We could have two new pitchers by tomorrow. Show us you care, show us some fire, show us you mean business about winning.

UPDATE [2007-6-1 20:19:44 by Al]: Not sure how long this is going to last, but here's a pretty good YouTube video clip taken from ESPN:

0 recs | Comment 403 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

The pitch that got by Barrett....
...was catchable if he knew it was coming. He either got crossed up or he missed a sign because of runners on base. By then however, this game was lost anyway.
Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Jun 1, 2007 5:20 PM CDT   0 recs

If you get rid of Zambrano
you've got to get rid of Gump too.
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 5:23 PM CDT   0 recs

Since we'r'e talking deals....
Think you can get Jim to send Murton to Texas for Kenny Lofton?

by Damen Jackson on Jun 1, 2007 5:26 PM CDT   0 recs

The video shows
Z took the first swing, and Lou did have to seperate them, along with several others. It then spilled into the locker room before they were sent on their way.

Agree with your assesment on trading Z- should happen immediately. I doubt we'll be any worse off. After that, start on the rest of it- no one should be considered untouchable, including DLee. They need an entirely different attitude and mindset. This was one of thye most embarrassing things I have ever seen out of the Cubs.

Who cares what they think? When they go after me, they ain't goin' after no maiden"- Leo Durocher

by tommy veryzer on Jun 1, 2007 5:27 PM CDT   0 recs

Get Rid of Zambrano and not Barrett????
The way it looks to me Barrett was just as responsible for the fight as Zambrano....plus Barrett is clearly NOT GOOD behind the plate....so dump him too...I can't believe what has happened to Zambo but I know I would HATE seeing him pitch for the Mets because you know he would turn into a Cy Young candidate....I think he was hurt by not getting a deal done with the donut muncher before the start of the season and his mind has gone...Barrett is just not that good...would rather see him go....actually I would love for the Iowa Cubs to be called up en-masse and embarass all these millionaires by sitting them....uggghhh...I cannot believe this season just got worse than last year!

by razzpunk on Jun 1, 2007 5:29 PM CDT   0 recs

Right
 Barrett has to go.I highly doubt even his own teammates respect him anymore. He's terrible. This altercation today, has obviously been festering for quite some time now. I mean c'mon, how can it not. Barrett is a joke as a Catcher and I'm sure it's got to be very frustrating as a Pitcher to have to pitch to him on a daily basis.

 Then you have the whole Blanco will catch Zambrano exclusively deal, which I'm sure Piniella just didn't pull out of his azz or purely by the numbers.

 Then Barrett gietting a "mental" day off and it's obvious he has to go as well.

 Remember the days when the Barrett apologists were saying he wasn't a bad Catcher?? Ahhh those were the days. Makes you wonder sometimes what some Cub fans are looking at.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 5:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

TOTALLY AGREED --
Screw Barrett -- career year last year, has totally sucked at the plate and is maybe the worst defensive catcher in the league.  Can't throw anyone out -- Barrett deserved to be lashed for his terrible play, and it should have come sooner.
Give Z whatever he Please...NOW!

by southerncubbie on Jun 1, 2007 9:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Barrett should be gone
...but not because of the popular idea that he's a defensive liability.  He should be traded because he was involved in a fight with a teammate in front of national television cameras and in front of 41,000 fans.  It doesn't matter if he's Ronnie Cedeno, Greg Maddux (yes, I know he's already gone), or Hendry himself.  That behavior is inexcusable.

by Rev Gunia on Jun 1, 2007 10:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Explosive Volcanic Dipshit threw first punch ...
that seems to me to matter a little bit.  I kind of enjoyed watching someone take a swing at Zamblowzit for a change.  The guy was supposed to be the 'ace' of the staff this year.  Some f'ing ace.  Packed it in himself after the passed ball.

Get rid of Barrett, Ok, but could we get someone, ANYONE, who could catch and still hit above Mendoza for a change (ie: not Paul Bako of '04?)

Rob Dibble is a juvenile. Why is he on my XM radio? Why is he on my TV? Please, just, make him stop.

by iowaBear on Jun 1, 2007 11:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

this is not the first time teammates have fought.
and really I don't give a rip if it was on national tv.  Yeah, that adds to Piniella's headache because of the exposure it will get, but whatever.

I agree with Al.  Zambrano quit to today, and for that reason, he needs to go.  Soon.

by davidalanu on Jun 2, 2007 5:47 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

the fact that it did happen on national TV
...is very relevant.  All of a sudden, things that were private, in-house matters became public matters.  Now, everyone in the country knows that Zambrano and Barret engaged in physical conflict and now all the nation is going to look at the Cubs to see what they're going to do about it.  Are they going to be a baseball club that condones public physical altercations?  Are they going to be a club that allows one player to punch another because his on-field performance is poor?  Are they a club that allows players with high name-recognition to punch player who are lesser-knowns?  Are they a club that allows physical retaliation?  Or are they doing to do the right thing and show the world that the Cubs don't allow their employees to fight, period.  This latter move is the only right call in this situation.

by Rev Gunia on Jun 2, 2007 10:04 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, E.V.D.S threw the first punch
...but Barrett continued the fight.  He charged at him and he (along with EVDS) had to be restrained.  They both fought and should both be traded.

by Rev Gunia on Jun 2, 2007 10:00 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Al.....
I don't agree with you about much, but WELL DONE.

This team is a mess.  Something needs to be done NOW.

As for getting value back in any trade of BigZ, he hurt the team badly today.  I think Pelfrey is out.  If I was Omar, I would offer someone else and make the Cubs like it.

After what transpired today, they have no choice but to like it.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:30 PM CDT   0 recs

Trading Zambrano is a good start, but...
And before today's game, in spite of his generally poor performance this year, I thought the Cubs still needed to keep Zambrano.  No longer.  When his mechanics are not 100%, every mistake is magnified, and it's plainly obvious that his emotions adversely influence his pitching ability and his clubhouse behavior.

But trading Z by itself will not right this ship.  We need a new catcher.  Sure, maybe Michael just had a bad week, but these are mistakes a catcher at this level should not be making, and he had made similar mistakes time and time again.

And as good as it was to see Jones finally get a dinger, he's superfluous in an overcrowded outfield made even moreso by the far superior defensively (and, hitting .400 in AAA, it would appear offesively, as well) Felix Pie.  Jones: a ball thrown to the cut-off man should not bounce twice.

And Murton is not a right-fielder.  Another little-league mistake today by him on a popup.  Trade him somewhere that needs a left-fielder.

And can we release Eyre?  Every single appearance he hemorrhages base-runners.  Five singles and one run in two innings, and believe it or not, his ERA went down a fair amount!  Putting him in again and again is not going to work, as it has been made clear.  He must go.

by John Q Freejazz on Jun 1, 2007 5:31 PM CDT   0 recs

You're right in that...
... trading Z isn't the complete answer. But it is a start, and would send a HUGE message to the rest of the team.

I think Michael Barrett needs some time off to get his head screwed on straight. His defense has been awful. Now, you might be able to live with that if he were contributing with his bat, but he's not.

This would be easier to do if Blanco weren't hurt. But do you really want to start Koyie Hill every day? He's no prospect. Barrett supposedly went to the hospital for stitches; maybe he'll be given the day off tomorrow.

That'd create a Hill/Hill battery, FWIW.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 5:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Years and years
of bad decisions by the GM, and a piss poor farm system that makes matters worse.  The Trib is not this bold, but the right move is moving Hendry out the door right now, and letting someone else internally call the shots.

You reap what you sow, and there is a boatload of cumulative damage that has come to a head.

"Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year" - Sparky Anderson

by MPH73 on Jun 1, 2007 7:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I was at the game and......
During the game I turned to a good friend who was sitting next to me (and also texted another friend who was sitting in another part of the stadium) and said we needed to trade Z, bench Murton, put Jones in right and bring up Pie. Felix has that excitement the team needs. He's happy to be playing.

It doesn't solve the Soriano problem. He's reminding me of Ramirez the past two years... just not really trying.

JMO

by No Southern Belle on Jun 1, 2007 6:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed on Pie
One thing that doesn't come out in stats is a certain "spark" or enthusiasm a player can bring to a team.  Pie has that spark.  I mean, this is a guy who injured himself by jumping up too quickly to watch a fly ball and hitting his head on the dugout in the process!

by John Q Freejazz on Jun 1, 2007 6:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed on everything except ...
Jones, what a waste.  Dump his ass too.

Anyone know what we could even get for Z?  That's a risk I don't even think Warren Buffet would jump at.

Rob Dibble is a juvenile. Why is he on my XM radio? Why is he on my TV? Please, just, make him stop.

by iowaBear on Jun 1, 2007 11:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I have concluded that Murton...
...would be a great 2B if he had range and could turn the DP.  He's a nice hitter but lack of power and poor fielding makes him a poor fit for LF/RF.  I'm ready for some Pie, too but someone has to be moved first.

by DudeVf11 on Jun 2, 2007 1:08 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yuck. any way you slice we're done.
and we're done for years. i can't wait for the twenties.
I don't care about a world series, just be competitive thru September.

by buckmulligan on Jun 1, 2007 5:32 PM CDT   0 recs

trading Z
Pelfrey would be a good option..but I would love to get someone like Boston's Lester, but it is very highly unlikely. Z quit on this team and I doubt he wants to stay. Greg Maddux type situation right here if you ask me..

by Chanman25 on Jun 1, 2007 5:32 PM CDT   0 recs

better yet make a blockbuster
Zambrano and Jones (they need an OF to replace the injured Green) for Pelfrey, Heilman, and Lastings Milledge and deal Milledge for another reliever

call up Pie to start in CF with Murton in RF.

I have a feeling this season is almost going to be over if they cannot come back and win this series, so I think its time to dump Jones and call up Pie

by Chanman25 on Jun 1, 2007 5:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Never......
in a million years would Omar think about a trade like this.  The Cubs are behind the Eight Ball.  They have no leverage.
RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh, I dunno.
Omar's always loved Z; I'm sure that he thinks he can fix whatever's wrong with him.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 5:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree with you.....
Omar loves the kid.

Here is a deal I could see:  Heilman, and Lastings Milledge  for Big Z.  

Milledge has fallen out of favor in NY.  No way IMHO do you land Pelfrey.  No way does NY want Jones.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Why do the Cubs want Milledge?
They've already got Pie.

I don't do this deal without Pelfrey. If the Mets want Z badly enough, they do it. Omar's probably going to sign him anyway, so they get four extra months of him. Maybe the Cubs offer to pay part of the $8m remaining this year to sweeten the deal.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 5:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Thety would.......
want Milledge because he could be a part of the core of the outfield (along with Pie) for years to come.

Think about it Al, who do the Cubs have in the Minors who you think could play the OF?  They have no one!!!!!

As for Pelfrey, I will say this again.  The Cubs have no leverage.  First, BigZ has sucked this year.  Second, he showed his ass today.  They have to move him.  No way, no how do you get one of the top young pitchers in the game for him.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

no leverage?
Sure they do. If NYM really wants Z, their best bet is to trade for him and have the exclusive negotiating window. The leverage isn't as great as it was earlier in the year, but it's there. Despite his suckness, other teams will bid on him.

by Rynot on Jun 1, 2007 6:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Again.....
No leverage.

BigZ has been terrible this year.

BigZ just got in a fight with a teammate DURING a game.

BigZ just quit on his team.

No leverage.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 6:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Cubs still have leverage
 Zambrano can be good enough where teams will look past today's incident. Most of them would actually sympathize with him,knowing how incompetent this team and organization is. Any team in contention would love to have Zambrano and if a couple teams get into the mix,which undoubtably would be the case, then the Cubs will have more than enough leverage again.

 I however wouldn't just make a knee jerk reaction and trade him tonight just for the sake of trading him.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 6:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Because CF'ers can play RF.......
and Milledge is a hell of alot better than Murton. I'd amend your trade Al to something along the lines of Milledge/Pelfrey or Humber for Zambrano......forget middle relief, Hendry doesn't need any more of those guys to fall in love with.
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 5:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Isn't Milledge hurt?
 Hasn't Milledge already had trouble with the law? Isn't Milledge stock dropping like a routing pop fly at Wrigley, with scouts?

 Why again would the Cubs want Milledge?

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 5:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Because there's no better options
in the minors......
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 5:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sprained foot.......
and has started running again.

As for the off the field trouble, I dunno.

From what I have read, Milledge has fallen out of favor in NY.  One ass for another.

If I am Jim Hendry, I do it now.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

why would the mets do this?
Z's contract runs out this year right, Mets are going to offer there best long/8th inning pitcher and one of there best if not best young pitchers for a pitcher who's contract runs out this year, NO and NO. Maybe Pelfry straight up, Mets and Willie love Heilman, his versitility. Mets will win 95 games and represent the NL in the World Series without Z. Come on guys Mets will make a trade like this.
Now maybe a Jones/Z for Pelfry and and "A" ball player, but not two quality players, not happening. Why do you think the Mets are sitting where there at? Omar is smart, Jimbo is not.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Jun 1, 2007 10:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Greg Maddux Never Quit On Any Team.
this is a totally different situation..

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jun 1, 2007 5:34 PM CDT   0 recs

I think.......
he was meaning the value we would get back in any trade of BigZ would be similar to what he got back for Greg.
RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

contract year
I kind of meant it in that phase, but no, Greg Maddux would never turn on his team. Z needs to go, unfortunetly.

by Chanman25 on Jun 1, 2007 5:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Amen to that
not even close
Who cares what they think? When they go after me, they ain't goin' after no maiden"- Leo Durocher

by tommy veryzer on Jun 1, 2007 5:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Z in New York
I'm not sure Z would do that well in New York.  If little things like contract extensions, etc. make him that crazy, how would he handle the pressure of New York City, namely the media.

by WartburgCub on Jun 1, 2007 5:35 PM CDT   0 recs

who cares?
not the cubs' problem. just like rj vs. nyc media wasn't the diamondbacks' problem.

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 5:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I was just about to say the same thing.
If he's in NY, he's not a problem for us.

by shop girl on Jun 1, 2007 5:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Amazing how quickly....
you all turn on a guy who has given the Cubs alot over the last few years....Zambo may have quit on the team today but the team quit on him a long time ago too....maybe he is just sick of playing in this freaking clown house and all the losses...yes he is too emotional, yes he has sucked it up this year...but he at least has some fire unlike the bumbling zombies out at almost every other position....oh well, I understand that he will now become goat # 1 for all of you but there is plenty of hate-a-rade to be sent around to lots of people on this team....

by razzpunk on Jun 1, 2007 5:36 PM CDT   0 recs

That can't excuse what he did today-
totally out of bounds- you just don't do that to a teammate. I'm sure Barrett has a major slice of the blame, too, and he has sucked this year, but that is no excuse for what Z did. The only team that could go unnoticed on is the Yankees (and they used to feed off that).
Who cares what they think? When they go after me, they ain't goin' after no maiden"- Leo Durocher

by tommy veryzer on Jun 1, 2007 5:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Wait a second....
All he did was bloody his lip. Big deal. Some of you act like he killed a family member or something.

Reeeeelllaaaaaaxxxxxxxx.

You don't just "trade Z tonight, Jim". My god. If I'm Big Jim, I let it out be known that everyone's available and see who comes knocking first.

I never know what she's doing back there.

by MaTheMeatloaf on Jun 1, 2007 6:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree that Z was wrong but when I see it on vid
it's a minor scuffle...Z has a temper and so does Barrett, they both blew at the wrong time.  I am sure that there are guys who can't stand each other on most teams and this time you had 2 guys with big tempers doing it on TV...The worse part of the entire day is that Z may have stopped trying on the mound because of the horse crap defense around him.    If Z is going to continue to quit in tough situations then you either move him for mediocre value in return or you suspend him, although I don't know the rules and I suspect that it's impossible to suspend a player for being a bush league Ass-Hat.  In any event, unless Z says he aint playing for the Cubs anymore I doubt that Hendry will do anything.

The fight that I want to see is Lou v. Z or Barrett.  I want to see Lou kick some ass.  Maybe Dibble will stop by and back him up?  

by DudeVf11 on Jun 2, 2007 1:20 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It'd be one thing...
if Z was putting up numbers and shutting people down. If he was producing, then this might be dismissed as a overly competitive leader being frustrated with his team.

As it is, it's one problem attacking another. Like Soriano fighting the bullpen. The bullpen fighting Jacque Jones. JJ fighting Izturis. Izturis fighting Hendry. And on and on...

Somebody made an earlier assessment that Barrett didn't have the respect of his teammates. Outside of Z, I disagree. I've heard good things of him as a teammate. As a player, he's got to start producing. He isn't worth much at all this year. A struggling bat coined with a struggling defense does nothing for this team. While I agree that Blanco is superior defensively, he hasn't exactly proven it this year, albeit in a smaller sample.

MARQUIS! YES, MARQUIS!

by thekansasian on Jun 1, 2007 6:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

OK......
lets not forget that Barrett is the worst defensive catcher in the league.......how many times have we heard now that pitchers don't like throwing to him?? Little league mistake after little league mistake..... I'm surprised that its taken 3 years for someone to call him out.
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 5:38 PM CDT   0 recs

Exactly....
but instead he will be able to escape most of the heat on this one because it is soooooo easy to lay it all on hotheaded Zambo's lap.....Barrett is a huge liability every day he plays anymore....Zambo maybe could return to form with the right pitching coach....so maybe we need to look at retiring Larry Rothschild who has contributed what exactly to this club?

by razzpunk on Jun 1, 2007 5:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

HAHAHAHA
there's no CHANCE the yanks give hughes for zambrano. are you crazier than he is?

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 5:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Did Brian Cashman.....
just OD?

Come on now.  No one is going to give up a "top" prospect for BigZ.  His numbers to date suck and his behavior today forced the Cubs hand.  No one is going to give up the farm for him.  They don't have to.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

hell they are desperate right now
Steinbrenner would do it, he has that win now attitude going. He would take Z

by Chanman25 on Jun 1, 2007 5:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Do any of you pay attention?
Hughes is hurt and likely out till at least August.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 5:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I know...
sprained ankle on top of a sore hammy.....

BUT, if I was the Cubs, I would take him hurt (since it is non pitching) in a heartbeat.

It is a moot point.  It will never happen.  Cashman is not stupid.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Who gives a crap
This team is not going to win this year.

The only thing this team is good for is giving Cubs fans a reasonable excuse to be alcoholics over the summer.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 5:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

they think hughes = seaver = clemens.
they're not trading him. certainly not for four months of zambrano. there's no way the yankees make that trade YESTERDAY and there's CERTAINLY no way they make it tomorrow.

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 5:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And if the yanks really want a a chance to win
this year.

I would too.

Hell of a starting rotation:

Wang
Mussina,
Clemens
Z
???

That might just save their pen too.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 5:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

OK that's what you want
but now tell us what you think WILL HAPPEN.

Athletes from the same team are always fighting. In the end, they shake hands and go back to business. Neither Zambrano nor Barrett have to be traded. Tomorrow cooler heads will prevail and we'll move towards fixing the real problem, the rapid decline of this entire organization.

Let's admit it. Once it was indicated that Zell had bought the Trib and would be selling the Cubs at year end, we've been in free fall. Everyone has a free pass because their employer will be different next year.

If there were pride and leadership on this team, that wouldn't happen. But, regrettably, Hendry has stacked the clubhouse with prima donnas over the years and it's all come to a boil at the first sign of failure.

If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on Jun 1, 2007 5:39 PM CDT   0 recs

Athletes from the same team are always fighting
Since when?

What WILL happen? I have no idea. But SOMETHING has to be done. It's not time for "cooler heads", because if that happens, then it's the same old, same old.

Time to make a bold move. Period. In fact, the mere fact that you mention, that the club is to be sold, with Hendry likely out of a job -- why would he NOT want to make a bold move? What does he have to lose?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 5:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The time for blod moves are over
If you wanted a bold move they should have released eyre and howry two weeks ago.

It's rebuild time.  Get what you can for JJ, Z, Barrett and the firestarters in the pen.  With those pieces figure out what the team will look like in 2008.

This team will not finish over .500.

If you think they will you are crazier than Z.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 5:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

you're from chicago
i seem to remember michael jordan's fists having something to say to will perdue's face, and a few others' as well.

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 5:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

100% different
n/t
MARQUIS! YES, MARQUIS!

by thekansasian on Jun 1, 2007 6:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

um, how?
the question was: "athletes from the same team are always fighting - since when?" jordan/perdue, along with jordan/a few others, is certainly a valid example. just one example among many. skiles and shaq also fought when they were both on the magic.

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 6:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Huge difference...
Was that on the bench of a game? Those stories leaked out (I remember Kerr relaying a story about getting drilled across the face) and Jordan wasn't irresponsible enough to fight his teammates in a game or in front of teammates. Does that make it right? No, but it is a different scenario.

Another point: Jordan brought it. Every practice. Every game. As I said in another post, if Z was successful and acting like an ace, then this MIGHT be excusable. But he's playing like shit, so condemning another player rings hollow.

MARQUIS! YES, MARQUIS!

by thekansasian on Jun 1, 2007 6:18 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

ok
the public/private issue wasn't really what i was addressing, but fine. here's another example: barry bonds choked jeff kent in the dugout back when kent was on the giants.

i realize this isn't perfect because a) it fits under your "if they bring it" exception (bonds and kent were back-to-back mvp's as this was going on, iirc), and b) bonds is a jackass and everyone knows this.

but still - my point is that these are ultra-competitive people who can end up losing their tempers and fighting teammates almost as easily as fighting their opponents.

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 6:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

c
(c) Kent is also a jackass and everyone knows it.

by BJ on Jun 1, 2007 7:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

On that...
I totally agree. Definitely wasn't saying it hasn't happened, and for every publicized fight, there's a hundred more that no one will ever know about.

I'm just saying there's a difference between this immature stunt and a fight that might break out at practice.

And yes, there certainly are other examples of this.

MARQUIS! YES, MARQUIS!

by thekansasian on Jun 1, 2007 7:09 PM CDT