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Indefensible

I haven't even read the game thread yet, but I can just imagine what it looks like, over 600 comments after I posted it this morning.

But today's 8-5 loss to the Braves -- one that was, in the proverbial phrase, "not as close as the score indicated", may have at last been a turning point for this troubled franchise.

Or at least, if there is decisive management, it can and will be.

First, I thought of this post title in the early innings when the Cubs' defense was absolutely putrid:

  • Ryan Theriot lost the very first ball hit in the game in the sun. Alfonso Soriano sort of loped in from left field; had he run harder, he might have caught it. No error was charged, and three batters later a run scored.
  • Matt Murton dropped a catchable fly ball in the fourth inning, that Mark DeRosa had called him off, allowing yet another run to score. Now, that's the outfielder's call, in general -- usually, OF have a better shot at a play than a backpedaling infielder -- but if you do that, you damn well better catch the ball.
  • And in the play that likely precipitated the day's big event, the most indefensible thing of all, the fight between Carlos Zambrano and Michael Barrett, Barrett let a catchable pitch from Z get away, and then threw the ball into left field, allowing yet another run to score.
And that run would have been unearned -- and maybe the Cubs would have gotten back into the game -- but it was clear after that incident that the extremely volatile and emotional Zambrano quit. Yes, quit on the team, because after that he gave up three straight solid hits, a single and two doubles, almost as if he were laying the ball right in for it to be hit (and one of the doubles was to Braves pitcher Kyle Davies, who came into this game hitting .067), and there would have been even more runs scored had Soriano not thrown Jeff Francoeur out trying to score.

And after that Z and Barrett got into the aforementioned fistfight in the dugout. Through anecdotal evidence, and Lou Piniella's postgame press conference, here's what must have happened:

Z may have said something to Barrett along the lines of, "If Henry Blanco had been catching me, this wouldn't have happened". Now -- that's not a quote, nor do I have any proof of this. But I can imagine some words like that might have inflamed Barrett to that point; we already know Michael has a temper, and he really would have had to be pushed past the breaking point to slug one of his own teammates. Some reports have Piniella, who is 30+ years older than both Barrett and Zambrano, stepping in to help separate them.

After that, both players were removed from the game -- Z was ready to be taken out anyway, after giving up 13 hits and two walks in five innings, and he was removed for pinch hitter Daryle Ward; Barrett was also removed for Koyie Hill (who was recalled when Blanco was placed on the DL with a herniated disk -- a fairly serious injury), although Hill's presence wasn't announced; I didn't realize Hill was in the game until he batted leading off the 7th inning.

Lou said in his postgame news conference that both players were "sent home", and that the club would "deal with it" on Saturday, and further, that there had been more fighting between the two after they had been sent to the clubhouse.

Well, that's not enough. I know much of the brass is in Arizona getting ready for next week's draft, but Jim Hendry's not leaving for Mesa until Monday.

Jim -- if you're reading this, it's time to make a bold move, time to shake things up, time to tell every single player and coach on this ballclub that "business as usual" (and five losses in a row is NOT good business, is it?) will not be tolerated. We discussed this at length in the bleachers today and here was our consensus.

Call up Omar Minaya and tell him Z's available, and make a deal. Now. Today, if possible, tomorrow, if not. Whatever's gotten into Z's head, it is clear that his time with the Cubs has to be up. And I hate saying that, because we all know the sort of talent Z has, and he just turned 26 today (some birthday, huh?), and he might turn in several more great seasons (although with 1/3 of this year gone and a 5.62 ERA, this year may be a lost one already). Minaya loves Z; the Mets could use him, and he's already hinted that he'd like to sign there next year (as opposed to with the Yankees, where he couldn't bat except during interleague games in NL parks), and the Mets can afford him.

What should the Cubs ask for in return? It's very simple, and in fact, I think the Mets would do this deal. Aaron Heilman and Mike Pelfrey. Heilman is someone Hendry has shown interest in before, and Pelfrey is one of their top pitching prospects. Heilman steps into the Cub rotation, and if he fails, Pelfrey -- who is 23 and has made ten major league starts, including six this year -- could step in instead, with Heilman becoming a setup man, something this club sorely needs.

This club is at a crossroads. When I mentioned making a deal like this to Dave, he said, "Not only for prospects, they need a major league pitcher, too", and he's right, because as bad as this club has been, this season is still salvageable. Trading Z would, in theory, leave the Cubs without a #1 starter -- though Z surely hasn't pitched like a #1 all season. That's why you'd have to get someone with significant ML experience (Heilman), who could start (though he has not started a game since 2005, he surely could. And getting Pelfrey would help the club look forward to 2008 and beyond.

This fight has to be the turning point. From here, either the season deteriorates into something that could be worse than 2006, or a bold move has to be made to say, "We're still out there trying," and further, to say that such things simply will not be tolerated.

Do it, Jim. Call Omar. Deal Z. Put him on a plane tonight. The Mets are at home, it only takes two hours to fly there. We could have two new pitchers by tomorrow. Show us you care, show us some fire, show us you mean business about winning.

UPDATE [2007-6-1 20:19:44 by Al]: Not sure how long this is going to last, but here's a pretty good YouTube video clip taken from ESPN:

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The pitch that got by Barrett....
...was catchable if he knew it was coming. He either got crossed up or he missed a sign because of runners on base. By then however, this game was lost anyway.
Santo Forever!

by BeerCub on Jun 1, 2007 5:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If you get rid of Zambrano
you've got to get rid of Gump too.
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 5:23 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Since we'r'e talking deals....
Think you can get Jim to send Murton to Texas for Kenny Lofton?

by Damen Jackson on Jun 1, 2007 5:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The video shows
Z took the first swing, and Lou did have to seperate them, along with several others. It then spilled into the locker room before they were sent on their way.

Agree with your assesment on trading Z- should happen immediately. I doubt we'll be any worse off. After that, start on the rest of it- no one should be considered untouchable, including DLee. They need an entirely different attitude and mindset. This was one of thye most embarrassing things I have ever seen out of the Cubs.

Who cares what they think? When they go after me, they ain't goin' after no maiden"- Leo Durocher

by tommy veryzer on Jun 1, 2007 5:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Get Rid of Zambrano and not Barrett????
The way it looks to me Barrett was just as responsible for the fight as Zambrano....plus Barrett is clearly NOT GOOD behind the plate....so dump him too...I can't believe what has happened to Zambo but I know I would HATE seeing him pitch for the Mets because you know he would turn into a Cy Young candidate....I think he was hurt by not getting a deal done with the donut muncher before the start of the season and his mind has gone...Barrett is just not that good...would rather see him go....actually I would love for the Iowa Cubs to be called up en-masse and embarass all these millionaires by sitting them....uggghhh...I cannot believe this season just got worse than last year!

by razzpunk on Jun 1, 2007 5:29 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Right
 Barrett has to go.I highly doubt even his own teammates respect him anymore. He's terrible. This altercation today, has obviously been festering for quite some time now. I mean c'mon, how can it not. Barrett is a joke as a Catcher and I'm sure it's got to be very frustrating as a Pitcher to have to pitch to him on a daily basis.

 Then you have the whole Blanco will catch Zambrano exclusively deal, which I'm sure Piniella just didn't pull out of his azz or purely by the numbers.

 Then Barrett gietting a "mental" day off and it's obvious he has to go as well.

 Remember the days when the Barrett apologists were saying he wasn't a bad Catcher?? Ahhh those were the days. Makes you wonder sometimes what some Cub fans are looking at.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

TOTALLY AGREED --
Screw Barrett -- career year last year, has totally sucked at the plate and is maybe the worst defensive catcher in the league.  Can't throw anyone out -- Barrett deserved to be lashed for his terrible play, and it should have come sooner.
Give Z whatever he Please...NOW!

by southerncubbie on Jun 1, 2007 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Barrett should be gone
...but not because of the popular idea that he's a defensive liability.  He should be traded because he was involved in a fight with a teammate in front of national television cameras and in front of 41,000 fans.  It doesn't matter if he's Ronnie Cedeno, Greg Maddux (yes, I know he's already gone), or Hendry himself.  That behavior is inexcusable.

by Rev Gunia on Jun 1, 2007 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Explosive Volcanic Dipshit threw first punch ...
that seems to me to matter a little bit.  I kind of enjoyed watching someone take a swing at Zamblowzit for a change.  The guy was supposed to be the 'ace' of the staff this year.  Some f'ing ace.  Packed it in himself after the passed ball.

Get rid of Barrett, Ok, but could we get someone, ANYONE, who could catch and still hit above Mendoza for a change (ie: not Paul Bako of '04?)

Rob Dibble is a juvenile. Why is he on my XM radio? Why is he on my TV? Please, just, make him stop.

by iowaBear on Jun 1, 2007 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is not the first time teammates have fought.
and really I don't give a rip if it was on national tv.  Yeah, that adds to Piniella's headache because of the exposure it will get, but whatever.

I agree with Al.  Zambrano quit to today, and for that reason, he needs to go.  Soon.

by davidalanu on Jun 2, 2007 5:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the fact that it did happen on national TV
...is very relevant.  All of a sudden, things that were private, in-house matters became public matters.  Now, everyone in the country knows that Zambrano and Barret engaged in physical conflict and now all the nation is going to look at the Cubs to see what they're going to do about it.  Are they going to be a baseball club that condones public physical altercations?  Are they going to be a club that allows one player to punch another because his on-field performance is poor?  Are they a club that allows players with high name-recognition to punch player who are lesser-knowns?  Are they a club that allows physical retaliation?  Or are they doing to do the right thing and show the world that the Cubs don't allow their employees to fight, period.  This latter move is the only right call in this situation.

by Rev Gunia on Jun 2, 2007 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, E.V.D.S threw the first punch
...but Barrett continued the fight.  He charged at him and he (along with EVDS) had to be restrained.  They both fought and should both be traded.

by Rev Gunia on Jun 2, 2007 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Al.....
I don't agree with you about much, but WELL DONE.

This team is a mess.  Something needs to be done NOW.

As for getting value back in any trade of BigZ, he hurt the team badly today.  I think Pelfrey is out.  If I was Omar, I would offer someone else and make the Cubs like it.

After what transpired today, they have no choice but to like it.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:30 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Trading Zambrano is a good start, but...
And before today's game, in spite of his generally poor performance this year, I thought the Cubs still needed to keep Zambrano.  No longer.  When his mechanics are not 100%, every mistake is magnified, and it's plainly obvious that his emotions adversely influence his pitching ability and his clubhouse behavior.

But trading Z by itself will not right this ship.  We need a new catcher.  Sure, maybe Michael just had a bad week, but these are mistakes a catcher at this level should not be making, and he had made similar mistakes time and time again.

And as good as it was to see Jones finally get a dinger, he's superfluous in an overcrowded outfield made even moreso by the far superior defensively (and, hitting .400 in AAA, it would appear offesively, as well) Felix Pie.  Jones: a ball thrown to the cut-off man should not bounce twice.

And Murton is not a right-fielder.  Another little-league mistake today by him on a popup.  Trade him somewhere that needs a left-fielder.

And can we release Eyre?  Every single appearance he hemorrhages base-runners.  Five singles and one run in two innings, and believe it or not, his ERA went down a fair amount!  Putting him in again and again is not going to work, as it has been made clear.  He must go.

by John Q Freejazz on Jun 1, 2007 5:31 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You're right in that...
... trading Z isn't the complete answer. But it is a start, and would send a HUGE message to the rest of the team.

I think Michael Barrett needs some time off to get his head screwed on straight. His defense has been awful. Now, you might be able to live with that if he were contributing with his bat, but he's not.

This would be easier to do if Blanco weren't hurt. But do you really want to start Koyie Hill every day? He's no prospect. Barrett supposedly went to the hospital for stitches; maybe he'll be given the day off tomorrow.

That'd create a Hill/Hill battery, FWIW.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Years and years
of bad decisions by the GM, and a piss poor farm system that makes matters worse.  The Trib is not this bold, but the right move is moving Hendry out the door right now, and letting someone else internally call the shots.

You reap what you sow, and there is a boatload of cumulative damage that has come to a head.

"Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year" - Sparky Anderson

by MPH73 on Jun 1, 2007 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was at the game and......
During the game I turned to a good friend who was sitting next to me (and also texted another friend who was sitting in another part of the stadium) and said we needed to trade Z, bench Murton, put Jones in right and bring up Pie. Felix has that excitement the team needs. He's happy to be playing.

It doesn't solve the Soriano problem. He's reminding me of Ramirez the past two years... just not really trying.

JMO

by No Southern Belle on Jun 1, 2007 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed on Pie
One thing that doesn't come out in stats is a certain "spark" or enthusiasm a player can bring to a team.  Pie has that spark.  I mean, this is a guy who injured himself by jumping up too quickly to watch a fly ball and hitting his head on the dugout in the process!

by John Q Freejazz on Jun 1, 2007 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed on everything except ...
Jones, what a waste.  Dump his ass too.

Anyone know what we could even get for Z?  That's a risk I don't even think Warren Buffet would jump at.

Rob Dibble is a juvenile. Why is he on my XM radio? Why is he on my TV? Please, just, make him stop.

by iowaBear on Jun 1, 2007 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have concluded that Murton...
...would be a great 2B if he had range and could turn the DP.  He's a nice hitter but lack of power and poor fielding makes him a poor fit for LF/RF.  I'm ready for some Pie, too but someone has to be moved first.

by DudeVf11 on Jun 2, 2007 1:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yuck. any way you slice we're done.
and we're done for years. i can't wait for the twenties.
I don't care about a world series, just be competitive thru September.

by buckmulligan on Jun 1, 2007 5:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

trading Z
Pelfrey would be a good option..but I would love to get someone like Boston's Lester, but it is very highly unlikely. Z quit on this team and I doubt he wants to stay. Greg Maddux type situation right here if you ask me..

by Chanman25 on Jun 1, 2007 5:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

better yet make a blockbuster
Zambrano and Jones (they need an OF to replace the injured Green) for Pelfrey, Heilman, and Lastings Milledge and deal Milledge for another reliever

call up Pie to start in CF with Murton in RF.

I have a feeling this season is almost going to be over if they cannot come back and win this series, so I think its time to dump Jones and call up Pie

by Chanman25 on Jun 1, 2007 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Never......
in a million years would Omar think about a trade like this.  The Cubs are behind the Eight Ball.  They have no leverage.
RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I dunno.
Omar's always loved Z; I'm sure that he thinks he can fix whatever's wrong with him.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you.....
Omar loves the kid.

Here is a deal I could see:  Heilman, and Lastings Milledge  for Big Z.  

Milledge has fallen out of favor in NY.  No way IMHO do you land Pelfrey.  No way does NY want Jones.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do the Cubs want Milledge?
They've already got Pie.

I don't do this deal without Pelfrey. If the Mets want Z badly enough, they do it. Omar's probably going to sign him anyway, so they get four extra months of him. Maybe the Cubs offer to pay part of the $8m remaining this year to sweeten the deal.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thety would.......
want Milledge because he could be a part of the core of the outfield (along with Pie) for years to come.

Think about it Al, who do the Cubs have in the Minors who you think could play the OF?  They have no one!!!!!

As for Pelfrey, I will say this again.  The Cubs have no leverage.  First, BigZ has sucked this year.  Second, he showed his ass today.  They have to move him.  No way, no how do you get one of the top young pitchers in the game for him.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

no leverage?
Sure they do. If NYM really wants Z, their best bet is to trade for him and have the exclusive negotiating window. The leverage isn't as great as it was earlier in the year, but it's there. Despite his suckness, other teams will bid on him.

by Rynot on Jun 1, 2007 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again.....
No leverage.

BigZ has been terrible this year.

BigZ just got in a fight with a teammate DURING a game.

BigZ just quit on his team.

No leverage.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cubs still have leverage
 Zambrano can be good enough where teams will look past today's incident. Most of them would actually sympathize with him,knowing how incompetent this team and organization is. Any team in contention would love to have Zambrano and if a couple teams get into the mix,which undoubtably would be the case, then the Cubs will have more than enough leverage again.

 I however wouldn't just make a knee jerk reaction and trade him tonight just for the sake of trading him.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because CF'ers can play RF.......
and Milledge is a hell of alot better than Murton. I'd amend your trade Al to something along the lines of Milledge/Pelfrey or Humber for Zambrano......forget middle relief, Hendry doesn't need any more of those guys to fall in love with.
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Isn't Milledge hurt?
 Hasn't Milledge already had trouble with the law? Isn't Milledge stock dropping like a routing pop fly at Wrigley, with scouts?

 Why again would the Cubs want Milledge?

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because there's no better options
in the minors......
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sprained foot.......
and has started running again.

As for the off the field trouble, I dunno.

From what I have read, Milledge has fallen out of favor in NY.  One ass for another.

If I am Jim Hendry, I do it now.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

why would the mets do this?
Z's contract runs out this year right, Mets are going to offer there best long/8th inning pitcher and one of there best if not best young pitchers for a pitcher who's contract runs out this year, NO and NO. Maybe Pelfry straight up, Mets and Willie love Heilman, his versitility. Mets will win 95 games and represent the NL in the World Series without Z. Come on guys Mets will make a trade like this.
Now maybe a Jones/Z for Pelfry and and "A" ball player, but not two quality players, not happening. Why do you think the Mets are sitting where there at? Omar is smart, Jimbo is not.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Jun 1, 2007 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think.......
he was meaning the value we would get back in any trade of BigZ would be similar to what he got back for Greg.
RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

contract year
I kind of meant it in that phase, but no, Greg Maddux would never turn on his team. Z needs to go, unfortunetly.

by Chanman25 on Jun 1, 2007 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amen to that
not even close
Who cares what they think? When they go after me, they ain't goin' after no maiden"- Leo Durocher

by tommy veryzer on Jun 1, 2007 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Z in New York
I'm not sure Z would do that well in New York.  If little things like contract extensions, etc. make him that crazy, how would he handle the pressure of New York City, namely the media.

by WartburgCub on Jun 1, 2007 5:35 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

who cares?
not the cubs' problem. just like rj vs. nyc media wasn't the diamondbacks' problem.

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was just about to say the same thing.
If he's in NY, he's not a problem for us.

by shop girl on Jun 1, 2007 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amazing how quickly....
you all turn on a guy who has given the Cubs alot over the last few years....Zambo may have quit on the team today but the team quit on him a long time ago too....maybe he is just sick of playing in this freaking clown house and all the losses...yes he is too emotional, yes he has sucked it up this year...but he at least has some fire unlike the bumbling zombies out at almost every other position....oh well, I understand that he will now become goat # 1 for all of you but there is plenty of hate-a-rade to be sent around to lots of people on this team....

by razzpunk on Jun 1, 2007 5:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That can't excuse what he did today-
totally out of bounds- you just don't do that to a teammate. I'm sure Barrett has a major slice of the blame, too, and he has sucked this year, but that is no excuse for what Z did. The only team that could go unnoticed on is the Yankees (and they used to feed off that).
Who cares what they think? When they go after me, they ain't goin' after no maiden"- Leo Durocher

by tommy veryzer on Jun 1, 2007 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait a second....
All he did was bloody his lip. Big deal. Some of you act like he killed a family member or something.

Reeeeelllaaaaaaxxxxxxxx.

You don't just "trade Z tonight, Jim". My god. If I'm Big Jim, I let it out be known that everyone's available and see who comes knocking first.

I never know what she's doing back there.

by MaTheMeatloaf on Jun 1, 2007 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that Z was wrong but when I see it on vid
it's a minor scuffle...Z has a temper and so does Barrett, they both blew at the wrong time.  I am sure that there are guys who can't stand each other on most teams and this time you had 2 guys with big tempers doing it on TV...The worse part of the entire day is that Z may have stopped trying on the mound because of the horse crap defense around him.    If Z is going to continue to quit in tough situations then you either move him for mediocre value in return or you suspend him, although I don't know the rules and I suspect that it's impossible to suspend a player for being a bush league Ass-Hat.  In any event, unless Z says he aint playing for the Cubs anymore I doubt that Hendry will do anything.

The fight that I want to see is Lou v. Z or Barrett.  I want to see Lou kick some ass.  Maybe Dibble will stop by and back him up?  

by DudeVf11 on Jun 2, 2007 1:20 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It'd be one thing...
if Z was putting up numbers and shutting people down. If he was producing, then this might be dismissed as a overly competitive leader being frustrated with his team.

As it is, it's one problem attacking another. Like Soriano fighting the bullpen. The bullpen fighting Jacque Jones. JJ fighting Izturis. Izturis fighting Hendry. And on and on...

Somebody made an earlier assessment that Barrett didn't have the respect of his teammates. Outside of Z, I disagree. I've heard good things of him as a teammate. As a player, he's got to start producing. He isn't worth much at all this year. A struggling bat coined with a struggling defense does nothing for this team. While I agree that Blanco is superior defensively, he hasn't exactly proven it this year, albeit in a smaller sample.

MARQUIS! YES, MARQUIS!

by thekansasian on Jun 1, 2007 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK......
lets not forget that Barrett is the worst defensive catcher in the league.......how many times have we heard now that pitchers don't like throwing to him?? Little league mistake after little league mistake..... I'm surprised that its taken 3 years for someone to call him out.
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 5:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Exactly....
but instead he will be able to escape most of the heat on this one because it is soooooo easy to lay it all on hotheaded Zambo's lap.....Barrett is a huge liability every day he plays anymore....Zambo maybe could return to form with the right pitching coach....so maybe we need to look at retiring Larry Rothschild who has contributed what exactly to this club?

by razzpunk on Jun 1, 2007 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

HAHAHAHA
there's no CHANCE the yanks give hughes for zambrano. are you crazier than he is?

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did Brian Cashman.....
just OD?

Come on now.  No one is going to give up a "top" prospect for BigZ.  His numbers to date suck and his behavior today forced the Cubs hand.  No one is going to give up the farm for him.  They don't have to.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

hell they are desperate right now
Steinbrenner would do it, he has that win now attitude going. He would take Z

by Chanman25 on Jun 1, 2007 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do any of you pay attention?
Hughes is hurt and likely out till at least August.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know...
sprained ankle on top of a sore hammy.....

BUT, if I was the Cubs, I would take him hurt (since it is non pitching) in a heartbeat.

It is a moot point.  It will never happen.  Cashman is not stupid.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who gives a crap
This team is not going to win this year.

The only thing this team is good for is giving Cubs fans a reasonable excuse to be alcoholics over the summer.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

they think hughes = seaver = clemens.
they're not trading him. certainly not for four months of zambrano. there's no way the yankees make that trade YESTERDAY and there's CERTAINLY no way they make it tomorrow.

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And if the yanks really want a a chance to win
this year.

I would too.

Hell of a starting rotation:

Wang
Mussina,
Clemens
Z
???

That might just save their pen too.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK that's what you want
but now tell us what you think WILL HAPPEN.

Athletes from the same team are always fighting. In the end, they shake hands and go back to business. Neither Zambrano nor Barrett have to be traded. Tomorrow cooler heads will prevail and we'll move towards fixing the real problem, the rapid decline of this entire organization.

Let's admit it. Once it was indicated that Zell had bought the Trib and would be selling the Cubs at year end, we've been in free fall. Everyone has a free pass because their employer will be different next year.

If there were pride and leadership on this team, that wouldn't happen. But, regrettably, Hendry has stacked the clubhouse with prima donnas over the years and it's all come to a boil at the first sign of failure.

If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on Jun 1, 2007 5:39 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Athletes from the same team are always fighting
Since when?

What WILL happen? I have no idea. But SOMETHING has to be done. It's not time for "cooler heads", because if that happens, then it's the same old, same old.

Time to make a bold move. Period. In fact, the mere fact that you mention, that the club is to be sold, with Hendry likely out of a job -- why would he NOT want to make a bold move? What does he have to lose?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The time for blod moves are over
If you wanted a bold move they should have released eyre and howry two weeks ago.

It's rebuild time.  Get what you can for JJ, Z, Barrett and the firestarters in the pen.  With those pieces figure out what the team will look like in 2008.

This team will not finish over .500.

If you think they will you are crazier than Z.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're from chicago
i seem to remember michael jordan's fists having something to say to will perdue's face, and a few others' as well.

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

100% different
n/t
MARQUIS! YES, MARQUIS!

by thekansasian on Jun 1, 2007 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

um, how?
the question was: "athletes from the same team are always fighting - since when?" jordan/perdue, along with jordan/a few others, is certainly a valid example. just one example among many. skiles and shaq also fought when they were both on the magic.

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huge difference...
Was that on the bench of a game? Those stories leaked out (I remember Kerr relaying a story about getting drilled across the face) and Jordan wasn't irresponsible enough to fight his teammates in a game or in front of teammates. Does that make it right? No, but it is a different scenario.

Another point: Jordan brought it. Every practice. Every game. As I said in another post, if Z was successful and acting like an ace, then this MIGHT be excusable. But he's playing like shit, so condemning another player rings hollow.

MARQUIS! YES, MARQUIS!

by thekansasian on Jun 1, 2007 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok
the public/private issue wasn't really what i was addressing, but fine. here's another example: barry bonds choked jeff kent in the dugout back when kent was on the giants.

i realize this isn't perfect because a) it fits under your "if they bring it" exception (bonds and kent were back-to-back mvp's as this was going on, iirc), and b) bonds is a jackass and everyone knows this.

but still - my point is that these are ultra-competitive people who can end up losing their tempers and fighting teammates almost as easily as fighting their opponents.

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

c
(c) Kent is also a jackass and everyone knows it.

by BJ on Jun 1, 2007 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

On that...
I totally agree. Definitely wasn't saying it hasn't happened, and for every publicized fight, there's a hundred more that no one will ever know about.

I'm just saying there's a difference between this immature stunt and a fight that might break out at practice.

And yes, there certainly are other examples of this.

MARQUIS! YES, MARQUIS!

by thekansasian on Jun 1, 2007 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget..
...Barry Bonds/Jeff Kent
Jackson/Martin....Lilly/Gibbons....Gibbons/Hillenbrand...a couple years back a couple from the Royals got into it (Runelvys Hernandez and catcher John Buck).

 It does certainly happen, maybe not "all the time", but there is precedent for this type of behavior.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know Hughes is injured
but if the season is lost, then why not try and get a very good pitcher out of it?

by Chanman25 on Jun 1, 2007 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably...
since time began. Or at least the advent of people being on the same team?

Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Jeez.

I never know what she's doing back there.

by MaTheMeatloaf on Jun 1, 2007 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ahtletes on the same team
are constantly on edge, particularly when the team is losing. Just because you seldom see it on ESPN doesn't mean it isn't happening. You seldom see wife beating but that isn't as uncommon as many believe.

As for Hendry, he's boxed himself in. I'm confidant that every change he makes will be perceived as a mistake he's trying to rectify. From a very selfish standpoint, Jim is hoping that the team will turn itself around and he can show everyone at the end of the season how successful his plan was. It won't happen but Hendry feels compelled to defend himself.

Tell me when Eyre if DFA'd ot Junes is moved for a piece of stale bread. Until then don't expect Jim to see the light.

If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on Jun 1, 2007 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Assuming
...your argument that players in various professioal sports locker rooms routinely punch one another in the face, even this "common occurance" would have to be considered in a different light because it didn't happen between a few dozen close teammates/punching bags; it happened in front of the whole world.  Trade both men.

by Rev Gunia on Jun 1, 2007 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Granted
it's unusual for the confrontations to spill over in public, but it isn't unusual. Read the comments from Murton and others that they weren't shocked because they'd seen it before.
If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on Jun 2, 2007 3:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unusual but not unusual
What the hell was I typing. I must have been knocked senseless by a glancing blow.
If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on Jun 2, 2007 6:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your right
Fights are not uncommon on any type of team, you usually just don't hear about it, because they happen out of site.

Let's be honest here, you have two guys, who both have a history of doing stupid things.  Put that together with how bad the team and both of them have been laying, and you have a volital situation.  This fight, is really the culmination of Hendry's handy work over the years, as this club should not be in the position it is, with such a mismatch of talent on the roster.

The organization has been broken for years, and if you haven't noticed, there is a reason it continues to go downhill.  The fun is just beginning, because the whole thing will require 2-3 years of handy work by a qualified GM, to clean up.

Say hello to 100+ years of futility.

"Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year" - Sparky Anderson

by MPH73 on Jun 2, 2007 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand why it happened
...and I'll even go along with all y'all and Murton (who say that pro athletes' locker rooms are like professional wrestling rings).  I'll go along with all the arguments:

--Zambrano and Barrett are both fierce competetors

--CZ and MB (along with everyone else wearing the blue pinstripes) are frustrated beyond belief.

--The frequent mental mistakes are especially infuriating.

--Part of the baseball culture is yelling, screaming, shoving, slapping, punching, and spitting on one another regularly.

But to minimize the fact that this happened in public in front of television cameras is minimizing something that is a huge consideration in deciding what should be done.  Should the Cubs smile and pretend it didn't happen, they're essentially condoning public brawling among teammates.  They're sending the strong message that "It's OK to punch a fellow Cub in the face if you're feeling bad.  That's acceptable on this ball club."  

It can't be that way.  More than the season is at stake.  Whatever the management's reaction, they're setting a precedent for seasons to come.  Will fighting be condoned or won't it?  Is it OK to punch teammates because you're a good player and they're a bad player or isn't it.  We can't let this slide.

by Rev Gunia on Jun 2, 2007 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously it can't be condoned
but what is an appropriate response by the team? Frankly, I accept the public reuke by the team along with the fines. In addition the players were required to apologize or did so willingly. I'm willing to move on from there.
If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on Jun 2, 2007 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Al please admit this season is over
I say we move Z, but tomorrow is not the best time to do so.

Wait to get a few good offers, try to get a biding war between the Mets, Yanks, Braves, St. Louis, White Sox, Twins, Tigers, Brewers, etc...

Then pull the trigger.

Getting rid of Z will not fix what is wrong with this team.  And even if he is a club house cancer it is better to keep him around longer so that we can get more in return.

We are losing (for the third time in five years) a pitcher that could have taken the mantle of "The Best Pitcher in Baseball."  At least this time lets get something for the guy.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 5:39 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Nobody is going to give anyone
special for Z, since he is a FA at the end of the year. IMO this would be addition by subtraction.
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will

by eswan9 on Jun 1, 2007 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why is it important for Al
to admit the season's over? If he does, what does that prove?
Who cares what they think? When they go after me, they ain't goin' after no maiden"- Leo Durocher

by tommy veryzer on Jun 1, 2007 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not really important
It was more a concept I want people to buy into to justify what I was saying.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK
I do think holding on and gauging interest is a good idea, but if he is going to continue to blow up in the clubhouse, I don't think they can keep him for long.
Who cares what they think? When they go after me, they ain't goin' after no maiden"- Leo Durocher

by tommy veryzer on Jun 1, 2007 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
But I think the organization would be foolish to continue trying to win today.

We are 8 games under .500.  We have no pen, outfield defense, a back up catcher or an offense that can get high pressure hits.  In short: this team is a failure.

So who cares if Z blows up this clubhouse for the next month.  He will be gone.

If we trade him today we will get 2 B-level prospects.

If we wait until the end of this month we will get 2 B-level prospects and an A-level prospect or a very very good MLBer.

The season is over for his sad team.  I say we wait.  

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

completely agree with the kenny lofton trade
   we need a centerfielder who can leadoff, and play good d, and get on base.  i have been a STAUNCH lofton supporter since day 1.  in 2003, (how many times must i repeat this ad nauseum), the MOST important reason we reached the playoffs, and went so far, was not only because of the starters, and ramirez, but because we aquired a TRUE leadoff hitter!  
   i say trade zambrano not to the mets, but look to any team that would cough up another bat at shortstop.  look to alex rodriguez.  after the yanks get their clocks cleaned tonight by the red sox, and are 13, 14 back, trade z to the yanks.  they DESPERATELY need starting pitching.  besides the bullpen underperforming, (i have a feeling they'll come around), the other biggest concerns to me is the leadoff spot ahead of our boppers, and the shortstop offensive production.  check out MY idea of our 2007 team:

            1)kenny lofton
            2)alex rodriguez
            3)derek lee
            4)aramis ramirez
            5)alfonzo soriano
            6)cliff floyd
            7)michael barret
            8)mark derosa
            9)pitcher
   trade jones and barett for a defensive catcher as well as a starter.   if we pulled off these three trades IMMEDIATELY, (or comparable players to the ones i mentioned, the season would be rocking and rolling.  at the deadline, we could aquire that ACE STARTER via trade, or we could let the youngsters have at it.  they had to be groomed for something last year. AS IT STANDS RIGHT NOW, THIS FUCKING TEAM SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!
   sorry Al, i cursed but i am highly frustrated.

by revelations on Jun 1, 2007 5:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I was bashed for
saying Trade Z for Hughes, you really think they would trade Z- A-rod straight up?

by Chanman25 on Jun 1, 2007 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

jesus christ people
call me degeneres because i am ell oh ellen.

arod is one of the best hitters in baseball and thanks to his april is finally a True Yankee. i think they're going to do what they can to keep him there in the offseason. they're certainly not trading him for a pitcher who:

  1. has a 5+ era
  2. is a free agent in the offseason
  3. is an emotional and pitching-mechanics disaster
  4. is being desperately shopped by his team after he instigated a fight with his catcher in the dugout on national television.
i mean, upon first read, i had to stop and think about whether al's heilman/pelfrey gambit was asking for too much. i think i've decided it just might be a reasonable offer. but that's the level you're talking about. not hughes, and not !@#$%!* arod.

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank YOU!!!!!!!
n/t
RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How about Z for...
...Albert or Ichiro?  Straight up!  LOL!

by DudeVf11 on Jun 2, 2007 1:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

HELL YEAH!!!
Bro you are dead-on right!!!! Fuck yeah!!!! I've totally felt the same way.
I never know what she's doing back there.

by MaTheMeatloaf on Jun 1, 2007 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Z, Isturass and (Jones/Murton)....
For A-rod......

A-rod is the ultimate Cub....wherever he goes....losing seems to follow.......perhaps then the planets will allign, goats will be sacrificed and A-rod will be MVP and Z cy young winner....and Cub/Yankee world series...

by kcjones on Jun 1, 2007 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

correction
  i should have put a new catcher in the starting lineup.  guys, we seriously need damian miller again.  i love offense from a catcher, but defense at that position is first.

by revelations on Jun 1, 2007 5:45 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Al,
I agree 100%. Words cannot describe how disgusted I am with Z and Barrett right now. They should both be suspended if they are not traded.
"Chicago baseball fans, who are composites of scar tissue and mortifying memories..." - George F. Will

by eswan9 on Jun 1, 2007 5:47 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Holy Mother of God
What was a merely frustrating slump is rapidly turning into a dreadful season, and now the Cubs implode in front of a national television audience.

Al, at root, we are Cubs fans because we love the game of baseball and the City of Chicago, but what we really want is to see the teams that we root for to demonstrate the characteristics that we strive for in our personal and professional lives.

One of those characteristics, obviously, is success -- in this case, a team that wins championships.

Absent championship-level success, however, there are many other important factors that I want to see that have been noticeably absent from the 2007 Cubs and, I would say, have been missing from this franchise for some time -- honesty (at least from management which has consistently lied about and obscured the truth about the health and development of players), pride in their job, mastering the basics and doing little things right, paying attention to detail, and having some fun along the way.

As a team, the 2007 Cubs have consistently failed to evince the skill level or the "heart," for lack of a better word, of a championship-level team.  Now they cannot even act like professionals.

Yes, this is a bit of an emotional response, but, rooting for this team is turning into an embarrassment.

by Nuke LaLoosh on Jun 1, 2007 5:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Murton Sucks, Barrett Sucks, Izturis Sucks,
Instead of trading zambrano, which could come back to bite us in the ass, the same way the whole not signing Maddux certainly did. Can all of you/us acknowledge that Matt Murton is a AAA outfielder, Michael Barrett is an awful catcher, and Cesar Izturis is the worst hitting SS in all of baseball. Carlos Zambrano is not the issue with the cubs, this year, nor was he the issue with the cubs today. No, he did not pitch exceptionally well, but he did not get any help whatsoever from his defense (the izturis play came later).

Michael Barrett needs to be traded more than Zambrano does. Trade him along with Izturis, and Murton. Get good young pitching talent, eith RP or SP. Give the minor league kids some AB and play at both C and OF and maybe we can steal some games as the summer goes on. DLee and Ramrod, along with Zambrano all clearly want to win.

I will be ashamed if we let Z go. Pile it on me if you want, but the fire and stuff the kid has, with a defense playing behind him is more than we will ever get in value in a trade. If we get rid of Barrett, we'll get an improvement behind the plate, at the plate, as he has become difficult to watch, and on the bases.

Sweet Lou seems to clearly be taking Z's side on the fight, and from reports, Barrett got his ass kicked in the dugout, and hopefully will get his ass kicked out of town, soon, along with the other two bums mentioned above.

by jmw676 on Jun 1, 2007 5:51 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Z went over the line
I don't care how bad Barrett has been, you don't throw a punch at a teammate in the dugout. No excuse at all.

And Z hasn't been lighting it up this year, and he flat quit today. Not needed- get him out of here, and don't stop there. Everybody on that team should be considered, from Lee on down.

Who cares what they think? When they go after me, they ain't goin' after no maiden"- Leo Durocher

by tommy veryzer on Jun 1, 2007 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fire
That's what both of these players have, and that's what caused them both to go over the line. I'm sure that both of them would want the situation back. They both went over the line. I'm not willing to put it on Z, alone.

Since they are both at fault, I want to keep the better of the two, and that is clearly Z.

by jmw676 on Jun 1, 2007 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gotta agree...
I think if we trade Zambo we are getting rid of someone who wants to win with all his heart and that is in short supply with this team....why wouldn't you blow up after the gaffes and miscues in the field and all the losing? (I know, that's not professional and all but..) Get rid of Zambo and he finds a pitching coach/zen master who can help him control his emotions but keep that fire and look out...meanwhile we will still have that piece of crap Rothschild destroying young pitchers arms in our dug out

by razzpunk on Jun 1, 2007 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gotta agree...
I think if we trade Zambo we are getting rid of someone who wants to win with all his heart and that is in short supply with this team....why wouldn't you blow up after the gaffes and miscues in the field and all the losing? (I know, that's not professional and all but..) Get rid of Zambo and he finds a pitching coach/zen master who can help him control his emotions but keep that fire and look out...meanwhile we will still have that piece of crap Rothschild destroying young pitchers arms in our dug out

by razzpunk on Jun 1, 2007 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

barrett has trade value.
murton has some, but not much. you're not getting a top pitching prospect for him. cesar izturis has none.

michael barrett to the right team could get you something. but that might also be a better thing to wait on. in three weeks, varitek could be on the dl or something.

by nycbirdo on Jun 1, 2007 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you
However, I think the combo deal you get with the barrett/Murton trade gets serious value.

I just threw izturis in there, because we might as well have one of our pitchers in the "hole" in the lineup that comes up every time he steps in the box.

by jmw676 on Jun 1, 2007 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only problem with your trades
is that Murton, Izturis and Barrett will not get you much. Z would bring value, and after today it looks like we would lose him for nothing after the year is over anyway.

by LT on Jun 1, 2007 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would
hate to see Z go but he hasn't been the player we've seen in the past.

Watching and rewatching the scenes from the dugout when a guy in a red shirt comes out to get the trainer Lee runs down the steps to the clubhouse. He and Michael are good friends so I'm sure he wanted to see how Barrett was. Also Henry is the one who drove Michael away.

According to BlueMike if you don't agree with his opinion you're an idiot or a moron.

by sue369 on Jun 1, 2007 5:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

do you guys really think
that after today, Z wants to stay? That he will resign at the end of the year? I don't think so. That means a trade has to happen

by Chanman25 on Jun 1, 2007 5:54 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

So This is What We Get With Pinella....
I am really starting to be disappointed with the leadership shown by Lou...he kind of just seems to sit there in stunned silence like a doddering old man who is lost in thought (maybe dreaming of the good old days)....we go for "Anything Goes" Dusty to "Where Are My Slippers?" Pinella....how do you think we would have done with Girardi by now????? This whole mess is just in need of so much clean up and I don't see it coming until after the sale of the club....so I guess we sit back and enjoy the perverse beauty of a team imploding and destroying itself OR go with youth...I don't know...I couldn't believe hearing about the slap fight or the 20 hits for the Braves...it has got to be scripted, this cannot be real...

by razzpunk on Jun 1, 2007 5:56 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It appears all the booze....
....has turned his brain into mush. He can't complete a sentence without losing his train of thought and forming a coherent sentence.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

kinda like this ....
" well ya know i just dont know anymore, and and and and, u know they just got get better and keep working, i really dont know what to say anymore, i dont know, i just dont know"

by CubsBall2202 on Jun 1, 2007 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude
"[Lou] seems to sit there in stunned silence"

I have one question for you.

How would you react to this f-ing circus call the Chicago Cubs?

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would be swinging like Zambo!
I mean the worst idea was probably to hire an elderly man for this job when we needed a spark....all I am saying is Pinella has shown very little fire and that has allowed this to snowball...

by razzpunk on Jun 1, 2007 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Marlins...
Freddi Gonzales is who the Cubs shouldda gone after BOTH times...instead of Baker and Pinella.......

by kcjones on Jun 1, 2007 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bruce Bochy took
3 players and a closer to divisional titles 2 years running. However, he wasn't a 'name,' so he didn't have a chance to be hired here.
Seems to be doing OK with a 'average' SF team.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jun 1, 2007 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Get rid of Z, get rid of barret, get rid of murton
get rid of jones, blow it all up, keep Soriano, Lee, Ramirez, Theriot, and Pie thats it, get some solid prospects that have some hope, this isnt fun to watch anymore, its grown more pathetic by the day, i thought memorial day loss was bad, well each game following that has been worse than the one before it, i dont know what to do anymore, but if theres one person that should be disciplined along with barret and Z it should be jim hendry for assembling this piece of shit ballclub

by CubsBall2202 on Jun 1, 2007 6:02 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

al
  what would you think of lofton for murton.  the damn rangers got rid of mench, maybe they could use him.  also, i know most don't think the a-rod for z deal would work, but think about it; z is pissed, probably wants to leave, a-rod hates new york, and i still, still believe the boss in ny will firesale this team at the deadline if they're over 14, or 15 out with no shot.  he'll want YOUNG players to replace the vets he'll get rid of.  also, zambrano will be outstanding in the future.  just because he's had a few bad starts doesn't mean he won't be a stud.  
  also, jones+ barret, for a defensive catcher on a team that is rebuilding (doesn't have to be an outstanding hitter), and a starting pitcher or reliever?

by revelations on Jun 1, 2007 6:02 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This morning did you
sprinkle meth over your Cocoa Puffs?

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cocoa Puffs
 Was watching "cops" or something the other day (actually it was "The First 48 on A&E) and a suspect referred to doing Cocoa Puffs.

 Apparently Cocoa Puffs is slang for sprinkling Cocaine on top of the gonja in a pipe and taking a hit off it. I got a kick out of that.

 Now you know.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lofton is a rent a player
No sense in trading a young under control of with an upside
for him. If you want to trade Murton you have to get something
with SOME  long term value ( more than this season).
"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Jun 1, 2007 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lofton
Cannot play CF everyday anymore.  Pagan would provide as much benefit right now.  Lofton is not the player he was in 2003 anymore.

by NO100 on Jun 1, 2007 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are joking right?
 I don't want to get far off topic, but comparing Pagan to Kenny Lofton is silly. His stat line is still solid, he's still playing most days, heading toward another 30 SB season, and from the Rangers games I've seen this year, still seems the competent professional that he's always been.

by Damen Jackson on Jun 1, 2007 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually I'm not kidding
Lofton is aging and he can't play the defense that Pagan can.  Hands down, Pagan is the much better defensive player.  While Pagan has 1/4 the AB's that Lofton has, he's got a better stat line.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Pagan is the answer.  I am saying that Lofton isn't and without giving up anyone you can get the same production from a guy currently on the Cubs roster.    

by NO100 on Jun 1, 2007 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll let this go..
 but I think his .500 average after being called up is really messing with his statline. Personally, I think this .100 hitting streak he's on now will show you the real Pagan pretty soon.

by Damen Jackson on Jun 1, 2007 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps
But Lofton isn't the answer.  

by NO100 on Jun 1, 2007 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Might as well......
... call up Pie if you're going to trade for Lofton. There's no point to Kenny Lofton on this team.

It's time to trade Jacque Jones. Maybe the Braves would take him -- you don't really believe Willie Harris is going to hit .390 all year, do you? Jones would be a decent LF for the Braves with the rest of that lineup.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Plus
...they collect players with odd first names paired with the last name Jones.  See:  Chipper, Andruw.

by Rev Gunia on Jun 1, 2007 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And it was only a few hours ago
that so many were posting it's a month, it's time for the Cubs to start playing better.  Oh well.    

by rlpete on Jun 1, 2007 6:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

So many flyouts -- no LINE DRIVES
I'm a firm believe that in baseball you have to hit line drives.

Now, I haven't done any statistical analysis on this, but especially today it seemed to me the got under so many balls that could have been line drives and made them popouts.  

And of course the few line drives they did hit were caught by a diving Francoeur...

Has anyone else noticed this?

"Winning is the greatest marketing idea of all time." --Cubs President John McDonough

by cubbieblue on Jun 1, 2007 6:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

like this every damn year
this team gets you hyped up because it has soo much potential and you look forward to the upcoming season. Then all help breaks lose and your hopes of winning is shattered...

by Chanman25 on Jun 1, 2007 6:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Talk...
to both of the New York teams. Omar loves Z, and the Yankees can get recklessly desperate at times.

One side note:

While I agree Barrett has sucked, it sure hasn't hurt Lilly, Marquis, and even Hill this year. If Z can't pitch to Barrett, that's his damn problem. Starting pitching has been a strength for the Cubs this year, and I think many people forget that when they blast Barrett as a catcher (as far as intangibles and calling the game).

MARQUIS! YES, MARQUIS!

by thekansasian on Jun 1, 2007 6:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Z's start of the year predictions:
He would win the Cy Young award.

Cubs would win the World Series.

The reality:

He will end up in another uniform.

The Cubs will try not to lose 100 games this year.

Wow Z...You suck!

Thank god he wasn't signed to a long term contract.

Now if we can figure out how to get ride of Lilly, Marquis, Sori, D Ward, JJ, Izzy, The Bull Pen, etc...

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 6:12 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

oh, come on
No reason to get rid of Lilly (pitched well), Marquis (pitched well and cheap) or D Ward (cheap and gone at the end of the year). And Wuertz and Dempster have been fine.

Yeah, what's happening is ridiculous. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

by elgato on Jun 1, 2007 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mr D,
you almost had me, but the last sentence is over the top. Lilly, Marquis, Soriano....I have no quarrel with them.

Remember, 136 million dollars doesn't make you a miracle worker. It just means the market thinks that's what you should be paid. It's not reflective of one's overall talent.

 

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jun 1, 2007 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trade Z
I would want Milledge back plus Pelfrey.  

I have bit my tongue regarding Hendry, but he has got to go.  He has put together a team with NO LEADERSHIP - a team of parts that don't fit together as a whole.  

For the time being, I don't think that pitching is te problem so the rest of my comments will be directed towards the hitters.

The way I see it, the Cubs have 4 guys that should be built around: Ramirez, Lee, Soriano, and Pie.  In the OF, the Cubs need a RF.  Murton, Jones, Barrett have to go.  
 

by NO100 on Jun 1, 2007 6:14 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Fresh start...
Keep:

D. Lee
A. Ramirez

Trade or demote:

Everyone else

"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse

by ronsanto10 on Jun 1, 2007 6:14 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I forgot.....
Keep:

R. Theriot

"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse

by ronsanto10 on Jun 1, 2007 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Rich Hill and Marshall, too
Alfo might not aways suck.

Guzman and Marol look like they might not totally suck forever.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm
I wouldn't say that Alfonso is sucking per se.  He's just not worth the 18? million they're paying him.  That's something we could have all predicted before the ink even dried on the contract.

by Kornchex on Jun 1, 2007 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

See my earlier post
Also, this can happen in the first year of a major contract -- now that a player HAS the money, he thinks that he has to give a super-human effort.

It's a big trap to fall into. You just have to play the game that earned you the contract -- again, that's whatever the market deems you should be paid. Sometimes the big cash leads to a big downfall, until the player wakes up and realizes he just needs to play to his ability, not to the contract.

It's easy to do 40-40-40 in the lower expectations of RFK Stadium, in front of 22K per game. Much harder to achieve in the maelstrom that is Chicago Cubs baseball.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jun 1, 2007 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes Yes
Definitely keep TheRiot. He seems to be the only bright spark in this otherwise dismal season. Let's just hope he can remain immune to the disease that seems to be making the rest of the team so sick.

by bloopsingle on Jun 1, 2007 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great idea
Now all you need is 5 starting pitchers 6 relievers 3 outfielders
and a few bench players. That is no problem at all.

Could we maybe be rational here? We are not going to get A-Rod
for Z and Jones and we are not signing 5 SP or bringing them up from Iowa.
We have 4 more months to play and most of the players are staying put. There is a HUGE moral problem here and I don't care if Lou tries to take down Z ala Rob Dibble , he needs to do
SOMETHING. ( normally I am not in favor of these things)

Before  you trade Z or Barrett for some used rakes ( all you get
when you are desperate) I would fine and suspend both of them
For the MOMENT this is better lesson than trading Z to the Mets
( wow that is punishment, going from the Cubs to the Mets right now)

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Jun 1, 2007 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Keep
Lee, Ramirez, Theriot, Soriano (impossible to move at $136 mil) & Pagan.

Call up Pie permanently.

Dump everyone else except for maybe Floyd (left-handed bat).

1-RUN GAMES = 2-12 | EXTRA INNINGS = 1-5

by SackMan on Jun 1, 2007 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

AL!!!!!!!!!
Dude are you going to do the poll I asked about?

"Is the Cubs Season Over?"

Yes:

Definitely Yes:

Maybe Yes:"

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 6:18 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If you're so convinced the season is over...

Then you don't need to take a poll.

 Good lord.

"I can't be held responsible for what I personally tell my goons to do...."- C. Montgomery Burns

by yahoodi on Jun 1, 2007 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Barrett
I never liked Barrett from the day he sucker- punched A.J.  I thought it was disgusting and totally unprofessional.  I can't believe loyal Cub fans applauded this incident.  He should have been suspended for the rest of the season.  And they make A.J. to be the bad guy.  What did he do wrong??

Barret should go.  His attitude is all wrong and defense stinks.  The Cubs should get Pudge Rodriguez.  Hey didn't he say he wouln't mind going to the Cubs before signing with Detroit?

"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse

by ronsanto10 on Jun 1, 2007 6:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Barrett never sucker punched AJ
He looked him in the eye and hit him.  AJ is an ass and got everything he deserved.

by cubswin on Jun 1, 2007 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The very definition of a sucker punch by a punk...
"to punch (a person) suddenly without warning and often without apparent provocation"

by DrCrawdad on Jun 1, 2007 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

AJ did provoke
Barrett. AJ is a first class ass.
According to BlueMike if you don't agree with his opinion you're an idiot or a moron.

by sue369 on Jun 1, 2007 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're right about one thing...
AJ is an ass but that's the extent of what you're right about.  Even Barrett has abandoned the pretense that AJ provoked him.  

MLB did not see the AJ/Barrett thing you're way either.  Barrett was suspended.  AJ got a fine for engaging the crowd.

How many people will you allow Barrett to engage in fights with under the dodge of being provoked?  

AJ is a juvenile jackass but a good catcher, unlike Barrett who is a punk and a lousy catcher.

by DrCrawdad on Jun 1, 2007 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Barrett's fellow Trib employees call it a...
..."sucker punch."
  • "the White Sox catcher he sucker punched last May." - Phil Rogers, 6/2/07
  • "Barrett sucker-punched Pierzynski last year." - Mark Gonzales, 6/2/07

by DrCrawdad on Jun 2, 2007 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sun-Times too...
"And then there was that sucker punch that connected with White Sox catcher A.J. Pierzynski's jaw last season. Barrett drew a 10-game suspension -- the longest ever given to a Cub." - Chris De Luca, 6/2/07

by DrCrawdad on Jun 2, 2007 7:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you really AJ?
trying to get back at Barrett for that sucker punch?

by DudeVf11 on Jun 2, 2007 1:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tomorrow, cooler heads will prevail but
Zambrano and Barrett will be suspended for some indeterminate time.

Barrett will no longer catch for Zambrano.

Until Blanco returns, Hill will remain on the roster.

Teammates will take sides, hopefully not along racial lines, but it could happen that way.

Team chemistry will get worse and additional losses will pile up.

There will be no decisive management action on any player and Zambrano nor Barrett will be traded, at least prior to the season trade deadline.

And Piniella will continue to muddle along, apparently without the strong clubhouse leadership he was known for before arriving at Clark & Addison.

by JFCubFan on Jun 1, 2007 6:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes you're right...cooler heads will prevail
 Noone will get traded and these 2 will kiss and make up. Zambrano and Barrett will apologise and say how unprofessional it was and it'll never happen again and they got "Caught up in the moment" and all the losing has gotten to them and yada yada yada.

 I actually am not embarrassed or disgusted this happened. Speaking from experience and I'm sure I'm the only one here who has played organized sports, but I've gotten into it with other teammates a couple times actually. It happens, especially when you're a competitor. One time it actually sparked our team and me and the player involved in the altercation became good friends and had more respect for eachother. The other time, well it really wasn't a good thing and no good came out of it.

 I don't see how this incident could do anything but bring the team closer. It already was going into a downward spiral as it is.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How lucky we are
to be able to read the memoirs of the only jock on BCB.
If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on Jun 1, 2007 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

no shit
Seriously, lemonpie, is that a typo or are you really saying you're the only one here who's played team sports? I'll bet most of us have.

by BJ on Jun 1, 2007 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL
That is a typo and was wondering if anyone would pick it up. Hey occasionally someone reads my posts, yay!

 Is what I meant to say was to the effect that I'm sure I'm not the only one here who while playing organized competitve sports, has gotten into a physical altercation with a teammate.

 It's not that uncommon of a thing and especially at the ML level, where players are ultra competitve and carry gigantic egos. Is what's uncommon about it is it happened in the dugout and not the clubhouse.

by lemon20pie on Jun 2, 2007 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A day without your input
is a day without sunshine. But I was beginning to be concerned that someone from Cubs Nation would soon show up at my door and find out all my trophies came from the same flea market.
If the law of averages are to be believed this is our year....or not.

by tharr on Jun 2, 2007 3:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I Played team sports...
...I was in a very competitive clan for BF1942.  I got in an argument once with a guy over Teamspeak and it rallied the troops and we took that flag and won the war!  

by DudeVf11 on Jun 2, 2007 1:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did anyone notice how many hits off Z.....

Came with two strikes. That's what was so alarming for me. Usually he finishes them off. Nowthey're going the other way. That ain't good.
"I can't be held responsible for what I personally tell my goons to do...."- C. Montgomery Burns

by yahoodi on Jun 1, 2007 6:35 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Des"Barrett"ly Trading Z - to White Sox
makes sense if the Cubs REALLY are that fed up and never intended to resign him.  ChiSox are also struggling in starting pitching, and have surplus of good young arms available.  

Phone call to Kenny W. makes sense too, and Z might enjoy playing for Ozzie!  Would ChiSox be interested in resigning Z at year's end?  Probably shakey at best; but they could offer longterm now, contingent on 2007 performance criteria...

New players would be in place ASAP.  Too bad Z dislikes Barrett; otherwise could make a package deal, and get Josh Paul back.  What a circus that would be to have Z, Barrett, and AJ in the same battery...brings a real ringing sound to the word "Battery"!

SOMEDAY… If they won a world championship, sure, we'd be proud. But we couldn't love them any more than we already do –anon. Cub fan

by hellfreezesoverwaittillnextyear on Jun 1, 2007 6:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Josh Paul?
He hasn't been on the White Sox since 2002. He's with Tampa Bay.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously I BCB
and don't follow ChiSox closely!

So get a ChiSox catcher besides AJ!

Maybe another trade to unload Barrett too!

After this incident, I really have to view an urgent need for change now!

Or maybe Lou is quite the magician and can bring this all to a positive, galvanizing incident.  Not really sure how deeply this incident and fractures truly exist-purely speculative.

A major trade for the right players now seems to make sense, if possible.  Remains to be seen how creative and persuasive Jim Hendry can be with all of this turmoil and pressure to succeed now.

Good luck Jim, Lou, and Mr. Crane Kenney; also John McD. for your ability to make good on a WS promise!

SOMEDAY… If they won a world championship, sure, we'd be proud. But we couldn't love them any more than we already do –anon. Cub fan

by hellfreezesoverwaittillnextyear on Jun 1, 2007 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another option to consider
since this reactionary and highly emotionally-charged thread is giving fans a cleansing experience--maybe Big Z could play right field for the time being.  This would create other trade possibilities and showcase Z's true love and talents-hitting, throwing (productively), running the bases, and daily spotlight of "being in the mix"!

Imagine how many more opportunities for charging the mound and starting fights would exist!

This might even qualify for establishing the long-sought after "Cubbie Swagger" that Lou is seeking!

SOMEDAY… If they won a world championship, sure, we'd be proud. But we couldn't love them any more than we already do –anon. Cub fan

by hellfreezesoverwaittillnextyear on Jun 1, 2007 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And he could pull the occasional Doug Dascenzo
by switching positions and pitching as a reliever late in the game!

by John Q Freejazz on Jun 1, 2007 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bad move
Trading Z now would be a typical Hendry sell low buy low deal.

by Tim Dierkes on Jun 1, 2007 6:37 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

No, it wouldn't.
Because you don't deal him unless you get value in return, period.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's sell low buy high
And Roto come one dude.

You're the player/money manager.

In this climate where Pitching is at a premium and there are many buyers with very few great pitchers on the market you wouldn't sell?

The Mariners Traded Randy Johnson for three great young players and those three players helped rebuild that team.

If the Cubs can get out of the "Win Now" mindset they have a great chance to get really, really good in 2 years.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Win Now" mindset
LOL
1-RUN GAMES = 2-12 | EXTRA INNINGS = 1-5

by SackMan on Jun 1, 2007 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And Mr.Durden....
come on dude (and this goes out to Al too)....

BigZ is not a great pitcher!  He is 5-5 with a 5.50 ERA!

NO GM will give up a ton of value for these #s.

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why
do you think the Cubs are going to get anything valuable in return for Zambrano?  He's an expensive player who is free agent eligible after the season.  You might get Heilman (if the Mets are interested at all in trading him), but you are absolutely not getting Pelfrey...no way no how.  Ain't gonna happen.  Period.  

by Maddog on Jun 1, 2007 6:42 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Because...
... Omar Minaya LOVES Z and wants him and if he can get him NOW, when the Mets have starting pitcher trouble, to help him win THIS year, I think he does whatever it takes. Maybe the Cubs pay a fair chunk of this year's contract to get it done.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Al I like this deal
But the Cubs should get at least 2 B-Level Pitching prospects and one A Level Prospect, especially if the Cubs pay his salary this season.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Minaya loved
the Zambrano from 2002-2006.  Nobody likes this Zambrano.  And nobody is going to give up a top prospect to get this guy either, Al.  It simply will not happen.  There is literally no possible way at this point that any team in baseball is going to give up even one top prospect to get Zambrano and the remainder of his one-year $12 million deal and then have to worry about re-signing him because he's free agent eligible.  I'm sorry Al, but it's not going to happen.  It doesn't matter how much Minaya loves Zambrano.  Minaya runs a business and it wouldn't be a wise business decision to give up Heilman AND Pelfrey for a guy like Zambrano.  

The Cubs will get less than what the Royals got when they traded Beltran to the Astros.  Maybe we can turn around and trade one of the guys like the Royals did (Dotel for Teahen and Mike Wood), but that's probably not likely because I don't see any team sending the CUbs anything of value for Zambrano.  

by Maddog on Jun 1, 2007 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know the roster rules...
But...couldn't a trade involving Z also include and extension of his contract .... ?

by kcjones on Jun 1, 2007 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

huh?
If Z is not hurt--and I'm sure it has been discussed here how some have specultated that he is adjusting his arm slot--then he has tremendous value.

Prospects are just that:  they are talented players with the prospect of becoming good major league players.  Zambrano has twice received the 5th most votes for NL Cy Young ('04 and '06).  He has proved that he can pitch in the bigs.

Many teams would give up an A- prospect for four months of him.  He could be a difference-maker on a staff (probably should be a #2 behind a stud due to his head issues).  It really boils down to whether your team has most of the pieces for a championship run and needs one more before several of those pieces vanish (the Yankees fit this mold, not so much with the Mets...but the Angels could be players, I would think).

If he's actually hurt...all bets are off.

"My uncle says you've got a screw loose." -- "Your uncle molests collies." Caddyshack

by jcub on Jun 2, 2007 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re
And because a team would be getting four months of Z instead of two.  But to get anything back, Hendry needs to create some competition between desperate teams who believe they can reset Z's five-cent head and need his arm to make the playoffs.  Without that competition, the other GM is just going to bend Hendry over and make him like it.

by Jed Taylor on Jun 1, 2007 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hendry might be able to get Milledge.......
and that would solve the problem of never having to see Murton in RF or in a Cub uniform ever again.
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

True.
Milledge they could probably get, but Milledge is just another Matt Murton.  He's not much better than Murton is.

by Maddog on Jun 1, 2007 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know that's not true......
you did the research, Milledge is the 3rd or 4th best OF'er under 25.
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's right...
My apologies.  I forgot about looking at the advanced metrics.  You're right.  Pie and Milledge ranked 2 and 3 among outfielder 25 and under in terms of SVORP production over the next 5 years.  

by Maddog on Jun 1, 2007 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's wait to see how Miiledge recovers
before trading for him though.  I think the emotional issues with him are overblown but he has a 4-6 week foot injury.

by rlpete on Jun 1, 2007 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carlos Beltran
in a similar situation to Zambrano a couple years ago was making more than $3 million less than Zambrano and was traded as part of a 3 team deal to the Astros.  All the Astros gave up to get him was Octavio Dotel and John Buck.  Combine this knowledge with the fact that Zambrano is struggling, quite possibly injured (there have at least been reports that do bring his value down) and you've got yourself a pitcher who the Mets may not even give up Aaron Heilman to get.

by Maddog on Jun 1, 2007 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with you
As I posted earlier this week, teams are not giving up loads of prospects to get 3 and 4 month rent-a-players.  The Nationals didn't trade Soriano because they didn't like the offers.  

If they can manage a grade A prospect then that's pretty good.  To think the Cubs will get a big haul is wishful thinking.  

A Zambrano for Heilman/Pelfrey deal would be a good deal.

As for Milledge, he's on the DL with ankle/foot injuries.  Not good for an OF'er.  No thanks.    

by rlpete on Jun 1, 2007 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, keep Z, but
trade Barrett.  Too bad Blanco's hurt now tho. :(
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Jun 1, 2007 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So who else besides the Mets..
..can they trade Z for?  Looking at the standings, both LA teams would be interested and always seem to be chock-full of young talent.  Perhaps the Cubs can pull a young arm and catcher (+ bullpen help that may be tradable later on) for Z?

It would be irresponsible for Hendry to deal excusively with the Mets; veteran pitching is always in demand for any team serious about a playoff push.  I worry that Hendry will try to get "win now" talent to save his job, only to have another one of his trades not work out and the Cubs be stuck in a deeper hole.

Chicks dig the long ball

by Will23 on Jun 1, 2007 6:46 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed on Angels
 I  think a Zambrano/Jones deal for prospects (Saunders is there to be had) could be a possibility. That is if Stoneman would actually make a deal, which is hard to believe.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who would upgrade their team by getting Z?
(and they have to have a shot at winning this year)

NL West:

LA
SanFran
Arizona (Good Fit)

NL Central:

Huston
ST. Louis (GREAT FIT)

NL East:

NY Mets (GREAT FIT)
Atlanta (Good Fit)
Marlins
Philly (GREAT FIT)

AL West:
Seattle (Good Fit)

AL Central:
White Sox (GREAT FIT)
Minnesota (Good Fit)
Tigers (Good Fit)
Cleveland

AL EAST
Baltimore
NY Yanks (GREAT FIT)
Boston (Just to fuck with the Yanks)

So there you go 17 teams that would benefit from having Z on their team.  5 of which would be great fits for a team.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The team on your list..
...that is interesting to me is the DBacks. Interesting because I never thought of them being a good trade partner with the Cubs but you're right, that could be a good tandem with their buttload of prospects and great middle relief.

 The DBacks btw are quietly putting together a very fine season (10 games over) and are a team to be reckoned with for a long time now. Much better future than the Brewers.

 Up on the Mets 2-0 btw.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you kidding?
Ok one by one
LA is NOT looking for starting pitching and
neither are the D'backs. LA wants to TRADE SP for a BAT
Giants not likely they already have the most overpiced SP

Houston & STL
right you are going to trade in the division and what
do  you get from either Lidge or Looper?

Mets Ok but what would they give up
Atlanta they could use him and I would pay money to see
Cox deal with him but they don't take on salary
Phillies they need RP not SP
Marlins  - I assume that was a joke

AL
Yankees- not much they would give
Baltimore well the home of all ex Cubs but again I don't see it
Boston- Theo ain't stupid unless we are giving him away

White Sox-I don't see them going for rent a pitcher when
they are probably going to trade one of their guys goint to FA
MN- NEVER they can't even afford to keep Santana
Cleveland-too cheap
TIgers-not insane but what to give

Seattle -like they need a rent a starter

Guys Z's value is alas A. at the deadline. B if he can actually
string together a decent start or two. He is basically a rent a player to any team and right now the market for rent a players
is not good.
No use proposing deals no team is going to go for. All the big
deals when you give up stud for good kids happen in the off season or at deadline. Someone find me one from at or before
first week of June

Fasten your seat belts it is going to be a bumby ride

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Jun 1, 2007 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who else has....
Rent-a-players (position players)?

Trade Z and (Jones/Murton) for a rent-a-player outfielder/staring pitcher...perhaps a win/win as the change of scenery does all of the players involved "good".....

SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE  

What other teams are underachieving now???  

by kcjones on Jun 1, 2007 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait
The Yankees are going to pay Clemens $18 million for the rest of the season.  Z is only owed about $8 million.  He could be a good alternative for the right team that has lots of prospects (the cubs could use some bats in their system).
"My uncle says you've got a screw loose." -- "Your uncle molests collies." Caddyshack

by jcub on Jun 2, 2007 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll be very surprised if there is any
real trade for the rest of the year.  BlueMike is right. Hendry is a lame duck GM.  There is no way the Cubs are going to add more payroll...its maxed out until the team is officially sold.  The most we can expect is various callups from AAA.

Besides the team just has too many holes to fill to be competitive, even in the weak NL Central.  Jones, Z, DeRosa, Barrett, Murton, Eyre, and Ohman all need to go...and that's just not going to happen.

I hate to say it, but what REALLY needs to be done is trade Derrek Lee and Aramis to different teams, each for a ton of prospects. There will only be a small drop in attendance...people are going to come to Wrigley regardless of the product on the field.  This way expenses are minimized to make the sale more appealing, and the minors would finally be infused with an abundance of young talent.  Its the best way to a brighter future.  

(Note I would say trade Soriano too, but no one would want that ridiculous contract he has)

by Neifi Puppy on Jun 1, 2007 6:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

God How Sad is This?
It is June 1st and we are already talking about possible trades.

This organization blows goat balls.

by MrDurden on Jun 1, 2007 7:00 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You're just NOW embarrassed to be a Cubs fan?
 Welcome to the club. Been embarrassed for atleast 4 years now.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A lot of wind today,
huh fair-weather fan?

How's that new Tommie Harris jersey you bought a couple months ago?

"You can say what you want about [Prior], but when he got on the mound, he was a bulldog. A bulldog." - Paul Bako

by NittanyCub on Jun 1, 2007 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Saying you're embarrassed with the Cubs..
...is not being a fairweathered fan, azzhole. Saying you suddenly hate the Cubs and start rooting for the White Sox as they're winning the pennant is a "fair weathered fan". Big phuking difference.

 How can you not be embarrassed about the Cubs? Are you saying that you're proud of the Cubs? How in the world can anyone be proud of the Cubs? I sure the fk hope not, because if you are, you're gigantic Dewwwwshh bag.

 Are we embarrassed of the Cubs? Yes. Do we still live and die with this team? Yes. Saying you're embarrassed with a team, certainly does not equate into being a "fair weathered fan".

 As far as this incident goes, I'm not embarrassed about it. It was actually nice to see some, any emotion out of this team, which I didn't think was possible. I personally think after both sides are mended, this could be a blessing in disguise. I really do. Does that mean I condone fighting? No. It couldn't get any worse,that's for sure.

by lemon20pie on Jun 2, 2007 12:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey thanks for your input man
Because I was really looking forward to you chiming in. And if you're going to curse, fucking do it. Don't be a big girl about it.
"You can say what you want about [Prior], but when he got on the mound, he was a bulldog. A bulldog." - Paul Bako

by NittanyCub on Jun 2, 2007 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL!
According to BlueMike if you don't agree with his opinion you're an idiot or a moron.

by sue369 on Jun 2, 2007 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

hey phuck you pal
 I have too much phuking respect for Al too toss vulgarities at your empty azz.

by lemon20pie on Jun 2, 2007 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well
you sound like a tool. A big one.
"You can say what you want about [Prior], but when he got on the mound, he was a bulldog. A bulldog." - Paul Bako

by NittanyCub on Jun 2, 2007 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

deals
I think I agree with trading Z right now, on account of (1) we need to do something and (2) someone like the Mets may want him.

But I'm not quite as down on Barrett and Z for fighting as everyone else is. Teammates fight sometimes. Especially competitive hot-headed teammates, who are often the best ones to have.

by BJ on Jun 1, 2007 7:06 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If we deal Z...
then the buyer has to take some garbage with him:

Jones
Murton
Floyd
DeRosa
Ward
Eyre
Howry
Izuseless

Any one of them... or even two of them need to be included.

In return, I feel the Cubs MUST recieve the top rated SS prospect in the league, ready to make the leap to the majors NOW, and whatever else is necessary to complete the deal.

1-RUN GAMES = 2-12 | EXTRA INNINGS = 1-5

by SackMan on Jun 1, 2007 7:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Re
Last nite, I wrote that I thought Z would be on the Cubs for the rest of the season.  After today's fiasco, I agree that he has to go.  Now.

This situation is exactly where management shows its true colors.  If Z stays, it says his behavior is acceptable, and it's the rare organization that can tolerate his inexcusable immaturity, especially since it happens over and over, and be successful.  Talent's nice, but the whole Big Z show has run its course and needs to come to an end.

This isn't to say that Barrett is without fault.  It is to say that in the short term, the Cubs need Barrett more than they need a selfish hothead like Zambrano for the simple reason there's no one else to catch, especially now that Blanco's out for awhile.

If I'm the GM, I fine and suspend both Zambrano and Barrett, get what I can for Z in a bidding war, and start cutting away the deadwood like JJones and Eyre.  The team can't be remade overnite, but a strong, bold move that speaks to behavior and limits needs to be made right away.

Unfortunately, Jim Hendry is the GM, so what I expect to happen is that Z remains on the team and continues to act like an ass, the team divides over to who to blame for all the poor playing, and the season slowly spirals down in a death spin that makes last year look reasonable.

by Jed Taylor on Jun 1, 2007 7:11 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Loud, sustained applause!
n/t
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Enough not going to dump anyone yet
they'll be active at trade deadline obviously if in it (Comedy Central) or out...at this point look out but a good week or two they do have some talent on this team offensively and in the starting staff...the defense/baserunning blunders are a sore point, esp. C and RF (Murton)...am sure he won't be back in '07.
  You don't go from a 96 loss organization to a winning team in one year...2 months...if Cubs can get back to .500 now it will be a major accomplishment. Let's be realistic.
   They were still counting on Wood/Prior paying them combined $5 M or something and getting 0...how much longer this goes on, who knows, but it's been a horrible 4 years now since '03 success.
    The worse they finish, the higher they draft and a chance to truly rebuild what has been a depleted farm system....I don't see much there now after Pie, Colvin (2-3 yrs) and maybe E-Patt...at least trading some established major leaguers (NYY need a DH now with Giambi down) will yield prospects.
   The fight and Pinella's explosion at least are making things VERY interesting on the North side.

by writerinwrigley on Jun 1, 2007 7:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

No leverage????
Really?  People think we have no leverage in dealing Carlos F. Zambrano?  One of the 10 best pitchers in the major leagues can't offer any leverage in a trade?  It's not like we're trying to deal Jason Bere for an all-star outfield here.  We'd be dealing Carlos Fucking Zambrano.  Here's your leverage:
13-11 3.11 168 K's
16-8  2.75 188 K's
14-6  3.26 202 K's
16-7  3.41 210 K's
You DO NOT deal a talent like Zambrano and ask for less than market value when he is struggling.  If you are determined to deal him you deal him based on what he has done and what he's capable of doing.  You DO NOT knee-jerk your way in to giving him up for a bag of batting practice balls.  Teams don't improve by giving up guys like Carlos Fucking Zambrano for crap.

God I wish I was a major league GM and the knee-jerkers on this board were GM's of other teams.  I'd clean out their organization everytime they had a bit of controversy and I'd laugh at them all the way to the playoffs every year while they had to fight to stay out of last place.

by pageian on Jun 1, 2007 7:14 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Ditto.
I never know what she's doing back there.

by MaTheMeatloaf on Jun 1, 2007 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree you have to get value back
but teams have gotten very leery of trading a lot of prospects for half season rent-a-players.  Look at the past few seasons.  

by rlpete on Jun 1, 2007 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

True
but if he's dealt now it's a little more than half season, which could mean a lot for a team that's still dreaming of the playoffs.  Also, most half-season rent-a-players don't couldn't carry Big Z's jock.  This is a little different situation.  I agree that it may be time to deal him since he likely isn't coming back anyway, I just don't want him given up for nothing.  Someone mentioned something about they had to stop and wonder if Heilman/Pelfry was asking too much.  I think they are forgetting who the Mets would be getting back.  Cooler heads certainly do need to prevail, and when they do they'll be pissed if Z has been dealt for spare parts.

by pageian on Jun 1, 2007 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Z is far from being one of the 10
best pitchers in MLB.  The following are all much better than Z:
  1. Santana
  2. Peavy
  3. Webb
  4. Oswalt
  5. Halladay
  6. Sheets
  7. Lackey
  8. Hamels
  9. Sabathia
  10. Felix Hernandez
  11. Penny

by Neifi Puppy on Jun 1, 2007 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So you think
Lackey, Hamels, Sabathia, Sheets and Penny have had better careers than Zambrano has?  You think they'll be better in the future than Zambrano will?  Or are you just looking at the last few months and letting your emotions override your logic?

Please check this link before making anymore lists.

by pageian on Jun 1, 2007 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are only.....
getting BigZ for the remainder of the season.

Please don't tell me you look at the career #s when making this deal.

You would look at this year and see that he is 5-5 with a 5.50 ERA and that his mechanics are off.

I guess I am just letting my emotions overide my logic;)  LMAO!

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 1, 2007 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So
You would only accentuate the negative when you go to trade your best pitcher?  When the Yankees call you up and ask you about Z you would tell them that his mechanics are off and he's only under contract for the remainder of the year so don't offer much.  Wow, you'd suck as a GM.

by pageian on Jun 2, 2007 6:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you serious.......
You don't think the NYY could see that for themselves?  

Good God man! Pull your head out from your ass.  It is too early in the AM for such stupidity.  .

RIP kerrysotherwife!!!!

by timeforachange on Jun 2, 2007 7:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hendry
is not just fighting for his job at this point, but for the rest of his career. How he handles the current debacle will determine if he ever gets a decent job in baseball again. If he stands pat, he is sunk, career-wise. He needs to pull a rabbit out of his hat and make numerous moves in the next 7 days. At the post-game PC, Lou basically came out and said he was disgusted by the current personnel decisions.

 Z, Barrett, JJ, and Eyre need to be removed from the team now, and if the Cubs don't get much in return, well, tough. Hendry made his bed. To keep them on the team  will only make things worse.

 Time to man up, Jim Hendry.

Len Kasper rocks.

by Matt Allison on Jun 1, 2007 7:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

My apologies to Dusty
 I was one of the first to call for Dusty to be let go and I was dead wrong. We now see under another proven manager and coaching staff that the players continue to slide deeper into what has become over  three years of lack of hustle and fundamental play. The other side of the coin I guess is if the Cubs had kept Dusty and the team performed identical to what it has I would be screaming for his firing. Lou indicated in his post conference that he would like to do things different regarding the players so I can assume him and Hendry are not seeing eye to eye. Something has to give, stay tuned.

by jimhickman on Jun 1, 2007 7:22 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Frankly
I would love to hear what Dusty has to say about todays incident.  Still though, I truly believe we'd be in worse shape now if we still had him.  I'm wondering how things might have been different if Girardi were manager.

by pageian on Jun 1, 2007 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In fairness to Dusty
I am surprised that as near as I can tell ( and I can't read every post) no one has mentioned the Z/Todd Walker incident ( 2 years ago?) when Z screamed at Walker and through his cap down after Walker muffed a DP ( got one out)
Dusty came right in and PULLED Z OUT. No questions asked.
I gather the Barrett/Z stuff was all off field but still Lou should
have him escorted out if neccessary.
"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Jun 1, 2007 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zambrano
The problem with dealing Z is that clubs know that we HAVE to get rid of him.  Thus NO LEVERAGE. Look who we got for Sosa whom teams knew that he was not welcome back as a Cub in 2005.
"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse

by ronsanto10 on Jun 1, 2007 7:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That's the problem
We absolutely, positively DO NOT have to get rid of him.  There is no rule that says you have to deal a player that took a swing at a teammate and quit during a game.  If you do deal him you don't go to teams and say "I have to get rid of this guy today, what will you give me?".  That is a mistake.

by pageian on Jun 1, 2007 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree
The Cubs don't have to move either Z or Barrett, but at this point it might be prudent to shake things up.

I would just like to see the team's composition changed and moving either or both Z/Barrett, both who I think have contract issues coming up, seems intelligent, especially since this team looks like it's going nowhere fast.

by cubby23 on Jun 1, 2007 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed
We certainly do need a shakeup, I'm all for it as long as we don't go giving away talent for trash.

by pageian on Jun 1, 2007 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zambrano
I understand what you are saying, but based on today's incident, I were a GM looking to land Z, I would be salivating at the mouth and thinking "this is my chance to get a good pitcher on the cheap".

Besides you have to consider the fact that because of his actions today, Z's trade value probabley diminished somewhat.  Who would want a jerk disrupting the clubhouse after evey bad outing?  I'll take a 40+ Greg Maddux over Z anyday!

"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse

by ronsanto10 on Jun 1, 2007 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well
you say "Who would want a jerk disrupting the clubhouse after evey bad outing?" but right before that you said "I would be salivating at the mouth and thinking "this is my chance to get a good pitcher on the cheap".  I think that answers your question, every GM in the league would line up if they thought they had a chance to get Z cheap.  Honestly, I cannot think of a team that wouldn't be better with Z in their rotation.

Except for maybe the Cubs........ sigh........

by pageian on Jun 1, 2007 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Z
I meant that because of he's such a hothead, some GM might take a chance and try to get for cheap and take a chance.  In other words, he ain't worth what Al is suggesting the Cubs get in return.
"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse

by ronsanto10 on Jun 1, 2007 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A good trade is...
obviously preferrable...but...a good manager ought to be able to handle the tension.

Besides....thats the most life we've seen out of this listless team since ... they approached .500

by kcjones on Jun 1, 2007 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's true
but if you get multiple clubs involved, you could get a nice bidding war going.
"Just give me 25 guys on the last year of their contracts; I'll win a pennant every year" - Sparky Anderson

by MPH73 on Jun 1, 2007 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Best post-game comments ever! EVER!
"I only have so many players that I can play... and it's about time some of them start playing like major leaguers. Or get somebody else in here who can catch the damn ball or run the bases properly! All right! That's all I can say!"

- Lou P 06/01/07

1-RUN GAMES = 2-12 | EXTRA INNINGS = 1-5

by SackMan on Jun 1, 2007 7:30 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Best post-game comments ever! EVER!
Yep!!! I agree One Hundred Percent!!!
Hey Lou, we're long overdue.

by deadcatbounce on Jun 1, 2007 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If nothing is done, it needs to be addressed...
>>>>>Fire Hendry?

Normally, I'm not a proponent of anyone losing their job, but this is unacceptable.

This isn't Lou Pinella's fault, it's not Larry Rothschild (at least I don't think it is), and it's surely not Dusty Baker's fault. This is not 1 yr. worth of bad ball clubs being assembled. Yes, chemistry is a tricky thing and putting together a ballclub isn't easy, but there's gotta be something better than what Cub fans have had to endure.

Al, trade Z, laughs...Trade Barrett, JJones, Cliff Floyd, the list is endless.

Barrett must be moved (impending FA) and will cost too much to keep, but also his defense (and I haven't looked at the numbers) might be on the verge of challenging the worst in NL history. This also isn't the first time he's blown up, it's too bad his temper doesn't translate into good defense or he'd be an all-star.

Zambrano should be moved because he'd potentially bring a lot, and well maybe a shakeup might help the club long-term, if not this year. Forget Omar in NY, he won't overpay for Z like people think, and we won't get Wright or Reyes back so to me it just isn't worth moving him to the Mets. Instead, there are plenty of other teams in need of a pitcher with Z's credentials. Go seek them out and see who the highest bidder is.

by cubby23 on Jun 1, 2007 7:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Honestly
I'm not sure if I trade either of them. And if i were to trade one of them, it would be Barrett.

Sit them both down, tell them we wouldn't get fair value, so go out there and suck it up.

Oh and stop sucking.

I never know what she's doing back there.

by MaTheMeatloaf on Jun 1, 2007 7:34 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hasn't anyone ever ...
heard of creative tenseion ?

by kcjones on Jun 1, 2007 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brian McCann anyone?
My favorite Braves player is Brian McCann.  Any chance a Braves could be induced to give up a proven young player like McCann for.....?   Al?

by greencubsman on Jun 1, 2007 7:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Doubtful
The Braves are moving Saltalamachia to 1b so that they can keep McCann behind the plate.  He's kind of their new franchise player and will be more important to them once A. Jones is gone.  Doubt we can get him.  Great player though, it would be nice.

by pageian on Jun 1, 2007 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Would they take...
... Z and (insert pitching prospect here) for Saltalamacchia?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably not after today.......
but that would have been a trade worth considering if today's fracas hadn't occured.
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm..
That's a thought.  If they think they still have a chance in their division they might, they certainly have a good shot at the wild card at least.  Tough to see Schuerholz giving up young talent given their $ restrictions but it's possible.  He and Cox aren't going to be around forever.

by pageian on Jun 1, 2007 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It'd be nice if they did...
But this article, written before the game today, suggests the Braves wouldn't go for it:

http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/sportscolumns/entries/2007/05/31/braves_must_fix.h tml

"So don't expect Jarrod Saltalamacchia to be sent to Chicago for Carlos Zambrano (who, coincidentally, will start against the Braves today). Zambrano is scheduled to be a free agent, and the Braves' new world doesn't have space for pricey imports."

by John Q Freejazz on Jun 1, 2007 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reactionary....
Considering Barrett's lousy defense, I'm sure he gets on some of the pitcher's last nerves.  Yes, Z's a hothead, but Barrett's inability to catch is the bigger problem.  Deal Barrett!
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Jun 1, 2007 7:37 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I-Cubs prospects
Hey guys, I'm a transplant-Chicagoian here in Portland , Oregon. I went to a Triple A game Wednesday night and watched the Cubs play the Portland Beavers. Ryan O'Malley and Rocky Cherry pitched brilliant baseball. We sat right behind the plate and watched the pitches coming in. Bring them both up, they are prospects. Z's getting to be a pain in the arse. Trade him for another arm.
"Henrdry, wake up, hey wake up, man!"

by drummerdude on Jun 1, 2007 7:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Cherry & O'Malley...
... aren't really prospects. They are both 27. Cherry has some future as a setup man. O'Malley's starting, but if he has any big league future, it'd be as a LOOGY.

Glad to know they both threw well this week.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Question of the night.
The Z/Barrett fight is clearly THE biggest baseball story of the day.

So what does ESPN lead their shows with tonight? The fight? Or yet another (yawn) Yankee/Red Sox game?

You make the call.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 7:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yep
ESPN needs to relocate from Bristol to Kansas City or somewhere.  They might learn of a life outside of the Redkees.

by pageian on Jun 1, 2007 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

RS/Yankers
 No brainer. If Zambrano hit Barret upside the head with a Louisville slugger, RS/Yanks game would still be the lead.

 The baseball world stops once these 2 teams match up with ESPN.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's play "Let's Make A Deal"
After today's amusing/embarassing fight, I began to wonder if Hendry is going to immediately trade Z and/or Barrett with others to the Mets.

It's no secret that Omar Manaya covets Carlos Zambrano, and he'd be front and center if there are any future talks with clubs about the Cubs dealing zambrano.

My review of the Mets' roster leaves me wondering who(m) the Cubs ask for in any potential deal:

Roster
 No STARTERS AGE B T HT WT DOB 2007 SALARY
47 Glavine, Tom 41 $7,500,000
26 Hernandez, Orlando 37 $5,000,000
33 Maine, John 26 $391,000
45 Martinez, Pedro (DL) $14,002,234
46 Perez, Oliver 25 $2,325,000
30 Sele, Aaron 36 $1,000,000
29 Sosa, Jorge 30 Not available
32 Williams, Dave (DL) $1,250,000
No BULLPEN AGE B T HT WT DOB 2007 SALARY
25 Feliciano, Pedro 30 $602,000
48 Heilman, Aaron 28 $453,000
59 Mota, Guillermo 33 $1,800,000
28 Padilla, Juan (DL) 30  $384,000
50 Sanchez, Duaner (DL) 27 $850,000
60 Schoeneweis, Scott 33 $3,600,000
35 Smith, Joe 23 $380,000
13 Wagner, Billy 35 $10,500,000
No CATCHERS AGE B T HT WT DOB 2007 SALARY
11 Castro, Ramon A. 31 $850,000
16 Lo Duca, Paul 35 $6,250,000
No INFIELDERS AGE B T HT WT DOB 2007 SALARY
21 Delgado, Carlos 34 $14,500,000
3 Easley, Damion 37 $850,000
23 Franco, Julio 48 $1,150,000
6 Gotay, Ruben 24 Not available
7 Reyes, Jose B. 23  $2,875,000
22 Valentin, Jose (DL) 37 $3,800,000
5 Wright, David 24 $1,250,000
No OUTFIELDERS AGE B T HT WT DOB 2007 SALARY
18 Alou, Moises (DL) 40  $7,500,000
15 Beltran, Carlos 30  $13,571,429
10 Chavez, Endy 29 L  $1,725,000
27 Gomez, Carlos 21 R  Not available
20 Green, Shawn (DL) 34  $9,500,000
4 Johnson, Ben J. 25  Not available
17 Newhan, David 33  $575,000
No DESIGNATED HITTERS AGE B T HT WT DOB 2007 SALARY

AAA Affiliate: New Orleans Zephyrs (Roster)
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=t_ros&cid=588&stn=true&sid=t58 8

Disclaimer * Admittedley, I am no expert in putting together "perfect trades" for any MLB team, so please have patience and save the "You'd have to be nuts" responses for some other time.  What is everyone's "good deal," should the Cubs be forced to make a move with Z to the Mets?  Thanks for responding.

Here's mine

Cubs get:
Jorge Sosa or John Maine
Aaron Heilman
Paul Lo Duca

Mets get:
Zambrano
Barrett

by scottsdalecubs on Jun 1, 2007 7:55 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think
Minaya will have anything to do with Barrett.  His pitching staff is kind of fragile right now anyway, no point in disturbing it further by adding Barrett to the mix.  Besides, Lo Duca has all those wonderful "intangibles" that people seem to love so much, even if he's not that good of a player.  I think Barrett/Lo Duca would be a sticking point for the Mets.

by pageian on Jun 1, 2007 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lo Duca is...
kind of like Joe Girardi with a little more offense.

by cubby23 on Jun 1, 2007 8:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree with Lo Duca
He underproduces but is clearly a leader - something I wish our guys had.  

by scottsdalecubs on Jun 1, 2007 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you......
have to go with prospects.......Hendry just has to accept that this season is probably a wash, and trade accordingly. It makes no sense to trade for veterans.
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Trade Z and Barrett.....
I wouldn't care if Hill catches the rest of the year.  Lou liked him coming out of spring training, and Barrett would have to hit 25 HR's and hit .320 to make up for his absolutely brutal D and overall baseball acumen

I really don't give two shits right now.  This whole thing needs to be blown up, but sadly the dope who put it together is still in charge and on top of that the team is for sale.

What a mess.  

And Al, I quit watching ESPN about two years ago.  Give it a try, you'll be more satisfied.  Watch Comcast instead.

by Peoria Matt on Jun 1, 2007 7:57 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

agree on espn - quit watching last year
Kirkjian and Andy North are the only 2 guys left there worth watching

by scottsdalecubs on Jun 1, 2007 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sportscenter is trash.
Baseball Tonight is still decent, and ESPNEWS at least gives competent highlight/score updates.

I find CSN's production values amateurish.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jun 1, 2007 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really???
I just think they have poor on air talent.
RAMIREZ!! PRIOR!!

by PriorandAramisfan23 on Jun 1, 2007 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Off topic
As a complete aside, I note that Channel 4SD/Padres TV will turn up on EI in the upcoming Dodgers series.

I ask that those who have never seen really crappy baseball PbP tune in -- you'll see the real Matt Vasgergian, not the watered-down version you saw on Fox last Saturday.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jun 1, 2007 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ESPN
I miss Harold Reynolds on Baseball Tonight. Honest. I thought he was great.
"Hello again, everybody. Harry Caray from Wrigley Field on a beautiful day for baseball."

by danimal15 on Jun 1, 2007 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Harold Reynolds
 Yeah I liked him too. It's a shame he had to go and grab some ladies who hahs.

by lemon20pie on Jun 2, 2007 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As I've said before...
......If you put the entire Iowa Cubs roster in Chicago Cubs uniforms, It'd be more entertaining and watchable than this junk they trot out every single miserable day.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dump 'em both.
They're both underperforming cancers to this team at this moment.  Strike me dead, Cub faithful, but I no longer care.  There has to be a major shake-up to create a culture of winning on the North Side ... and perhaps losing Z and Barrett are two ways to begin.

Of course, if Hendry does nothing, that'll give everyone a insight to just how emasculated his position has become ...

"One of the worst writers on this board."

by Littlerock Rynofan on Jun 1, 2007 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or maybe
Zambrano and Jones

for

Maine
Hielman
Chavez

by scottsdalecubs on Jun 1, 2007 7:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Chavez
is the fast one right?  If what Jose Reyes says is true Chavez just might be the next to steal 100 bases in a season.  Other than that he's supposed to be a good prospect and has taken over where Milledge left off I know nothing about him.  Is he really that good?

by pageian on Jun 1, 2007 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reyes is projected.....
...to have 90 SB and Chavez is projected to have 7.

 You're obviously confused. Not sure how you're not familiar with Reyes. He's an MVP candidate.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and the Cubs already have a CF prospect.
 5-0 DBacks over Mets. Man they're on fire!!! Fun team to watch.

by lemon20pie on Jun 1, 2007 8:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pretty sure it's Carlos Gomes who
is "faster than Reyes."  I might be wrong though.

by scottsdalecubs on Jun 1, 2007 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, Carlos Gomez
He has the best raw "tools" in the Mets org. Of the 3 Mets outfield prospects, F Martinez is the best hitter, Gomez the best athlete, while Milledge is something like a cross between the both of them.

Endy Chavez is the Mets defensive outfield wizzard. He is arguably the best defensive outfielder on the Mets, better even than Beltran. His track record as a hitter though, isn't all that impressive.

visiting A's fan.

by rfloh on Jun 2, 2007 1:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

asdf
He's familiar with Reyes, and asking about Chavez.

by BJ on Jun 1, 2007 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs