Trade Question from a Cards fan

by mtalken on Jul 17, 2007 3:38 PM CDT Comment 28 comments

Just for the sake of a random trade-talk post I made on BCB's brother blog Viva El Birdos, I was wondering if I could get input from some of you Cubs fans on whether you think this would be a trade your team would likely accept.

I think I have a pretty good guess, personally, since I'm currently transplanted up close to Chicago and hear all the Chicago sports talk, but obviously as a Cardinals fan, I've still got a different bias.

Here's the trade:

St. Louis trades RP Jason Isringhausen to Chicago for OF Jacque Jones, INF Ryan Theriot, and the Cubs choice of one of these three prospects: Sean Gallagher, Scott Moore, Eric Patterson.

Assume the Cardinals would foot the bill for at least the difference in salaries, so that you're not taking on more salary.

Obviously, on our side, we get two prospects in Theriot and whichever of the three the Cubs would choose.

On your side, you get a proven closer with a 1.45 ERA this year to solidify your bullpen, obviously a need with the early year struggles and Dempster's injury, and you get rid of Jacque Jones, who as I know so well from hearing Chicago talk radio, is probably the most hated person in a Cubs uniform this year.

If you're making a run at winning the division this year, this seems like a fairly decent trade to me, but as I said before, obviously I have the bias of being a Cardinals fan.

Would you approve of this trade? Please tell me why or why not.

Lastly, if you think this is a bad trade, tell me what you think would be a fair trade and maybe we can banter back and forth about it a little bit.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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I might...

and more importantly, I think Jocketty would. Eckstein a free agent, and Kennedy a bust? Replace them with a couple of guys costing less than a mil combined. Love it. Sadly, it would never happen, as it would likely be perceived as white flag stuff.

by Damen Jackson on Jul 17, 2007 3:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

not a bad trade offer

in terms of fair value for fair value

the problem is the Cubs bullpen really hasnt been a big problem in a long time and the emergence of Marmol along with Howry regainining his form and Dempster being quite good all year when healthy, gives the Cubs a pretty good/deep bullpen

While Izzy would help, he wouldnt fill an obvious hole and I cant see the Cubs giving up prospects to a division rival without the players they're acquiring putting them over the top

On top of this I dont think the Cubs can afford to give up Theriot right now because they cant hand the SS reigns over strictly to Izturis

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 17, 2007 3:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I second...

...the thought that it'd leave us with a fairly large problem at short.

by Shawon O Meter on Jul 18, 2007 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

I could see Jones, Theriot and Moore. I don't think they give up Eric Patterson, and Moore is gonna be blocked by Ramirez.

But Cubs would probably need to have either a SS in place via another trade, or be able to somehow get Eckstein in a similar deal. The jury is still out on whether or not Cedeño can hack it in MLB, and Theriot is too important to the team right now.

I really doubt that this would happen as the Cardinals don't seem to want to be sellers right now. They are not completely out of reach, but it certainly seems unlikely for them. But with the additional question of Pie being ready or not, we actually kinda need Jones in CF right now, as he's a lefty, and hope that he can start hitting again.

by WittyUserName on Jul 17, 2007 3:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't do it

TheRiot has been the spark so far this season and more importantly I don't want to break the Cajun connection. Now if Isringhausen is a lefty with the same talent...I would have proposed something..

by cubsnlinux on Jul 17, 2007 3:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The Riot

has been a pretty big contributor this year. I don't see him being traded. I do like the idea of Izzy in Cubs Blue.

I'll gladly give you Moore and Jones and as for the third guy I'd like to throw this name out there....Cedeno. Some here may laugh, but he's been hitting quite well at Iowa and I think he may be figuring things out.

AC 00 00 00 - BELIEVE

by mike on Jul 17, 2007 3:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Agree don't need Izzy

Despite his experience...I think I might do it for Gagne however, despite great fondness/attachment to the Riot.

I wonder what other deals Cards might make Rolen is a tradeable piece with some value possibly...but I don't see many more on that team. they have a lotta rebuilding to do, but will probably relish playing "spoiler'' role vs. Cubs and Brew Crew starting next week!

by writerinwrigley on Jul 17, 2007 3:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Terrible move

It would leave the Cubs with a giant hole at shortstop and wouldn't improve the bullpen all that much, since Marmol, Howry, and Dempster have been pitching pretty well. It would also leave the Cubs with a hole in center because Pie doesn't appear to be ready to hit major league pitching. No thanks.

by cubsbak on Jul 17, 2007 3:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I think

it's a fair trade, but I don't see how it helps the Cubs much beyond getting rid of JJ.

As has been said, of the three you listed, the Cubs would offer Moore, so it would be JJ, Theriot and Moore for Isringhausen.

But I don't see us really needing Isringhausen. Dempster is coming back soon and that pushes Howry (who has really picked it up lately) into middle relief. Marmol has been lights-out, and he probably stays as the set-up man. Then there's Wuertz, who is serviceable and Petrick, who has looked very good in limited work.

Oh, and then there's that guy who's name we're not going to mention. But he's near to coming back too.

Now if Isringhausen were left-handed, then it would make sense, as Eyre continues to be a disaster and Ohman isn't much better. Or even if Dempster were left-handed and Izzy could take over the closer and move Dempster to a lefty out of the bullpen. But neither one is left-handed, so it doesn't help us beyond giving us more of what we already have.

It's nice thinking, but I think if we're going to trade the Riot (and that's who we're talking about, although Moore could end up contributing), we need a left-handed reliever or a center fielder.

by Josh77 on Jul 17, 2007 3:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Wouldn't do it...

While the bullpen was a problem early, it is ceasing to be so at this point. Dempster has been very good aside from 2 REALLY bad outings. And he's due back from the DL by the end of the week. Also, we have Marmol now, Howry is pitching better, and we may eventually see Guzman back. And there's even the outside chance of seeing Wood come back to the pen in September (though I'm not holding my breath). The bullpen may actually be overcrowded in a few weeks.

Conversely, Theriot is our only adequate SS. He can hit some, run some, and play some defense.

So giving up our starting SS, a prospect, and Jones for an addition to a suddenly crowded bullpen doesn't seem like a good move from the Cubs perspective.

That offer may be fair from a talent perspective, but it doesn't really address our needs. We need a consistent presence in RF and CF, and we need our 3rd-5th starters to remain effective.

by SouthernCub on Jul 17, 2007 4:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I hate

to even mention this because it will probably curse him, but that right-handed reliever from Texas you mentioned is on schedule for an early August return.

But we all know not to count on things like that.

by Josh77 on Jul 17, 2007 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Counter-offer then

Since we're upping our side(as you'll see), then we cut Moore off the list of three.

New trade:

St. Louis gives up RP Jason Isringhausen and RP Troy Cate(a young, inexperienced, but good lefty - player card: http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=446452)

for the same players: OF Jacque Jones, INF Ryan Theriot and one of the other two: P Sean Gallagher or INF Eric Patterson.

Is this more palatable? Or would this be about the same?

by mtalken on Jul 17, 2007 4:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

About the same...

you're barking up the wrong bush with Izzy altogether. He just isn't what this team needs.

We need a consistent option in RF and CF. Our bullpen is soon to be overcrowded.

by SouthernCub on Jul 17, 2007 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Although I like Troy Cate a lot. I'd love to make a deal just for him, not including the Riot. But we just don't need Izzy.

I'd do Scott Moore for Cate in a second. Might do Gallagher for him. Not sure the Cardinals would on either.

by Josh77 on Jul 17, 2007 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

We don't need another righty in the bull pen right now. We are looking for a big bat for the outfield (CF/RF) and possibly a left handed reliever.

by cubsnlinux on Jul 17, 2007 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, if you change izzy to the young duncan

you might have a deal.

"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 17, 2007 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You know...

after thinking about it, I just couldn't see doing this deal with Theriot. Jones and the Cardinals pick of two of the three prospects, and a little cash would be about the most consideration that I would give this deal.

by Damen Jackson on Jul 17, 2007 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Alright, well thanks for the input!

I knew your pen sucked at the beginning of the year and Dempster was hurt. Didn't realize the pen turned around so much outside Eyre though.

I appreciate all the comments! Theriot seems like a helluva player, so surely you can understand my wishes to pry him away from you guys.

by mtalken on Jul 17, 2007 4:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Theriot will be the starting SS for years...

trading Jones, Cedeno or Fontenot and Patterson or Moore is a better deal. If the Cards want to rebuild their infield....there they go...but Cubs only need Izzy if they are moving Dempster to the starters spot.

Milw-09-24-98--Brown in for defense--bases loaded--flyball--HE DROPPED THE BALL!!!NO NO NO, cubs lose 8-7

by Ivy Walls on Jul 17, 2007 4:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd like to see Fontenot stay

at 2B with Theriot at SS for a long time. if these kids can pull it all together, the Cubs'd have some good bats, defense and a lot of speed in the line-up with those two. I wouldn't trade either unless it was a blockbuster deal for some major talent.

"Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

by Jettero2112 on Jul 17, 2007 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And I don't think Jones is "hated"....

as much as "just not needed." A lot of us would be happy if he was just DFA'ed.
Is there room on a team for two "Izzy"s? 'Cause if we trade The Riot we'd probably have Izturis at SS.

by ChipSet on Jul 17, 2007 4:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Here's another no vote

I wouldn't trade Theriot. Watch him play sometime - he's a sparkplug. Like last night in the 8th inning. He ran out an infield single with two outs to keep things alive. Then, when Lee singled to right, Theriot leaped in the air to avoid getting hit by the ball. Now that happens all the time, but with Theriot, the leap was so athletic, it seemed like he kept running even while air-borne. My wife, a former gymnast, was amazed at how fluid a jump it was and commented on it.

Earlier in the game, he made a fantastic catch on a line drive.

Theriot helps the Cubs all nine innings. I wouldn't trade him for someone who helps the team just one inning and spends the rest of the time sitting on the bullpen bench. Closers are over-rated. Plus, the Cubs have two closers who have proven relatively capable: Dempster and Howry. And if they fail, there's Marmol.

Case closed.

I would consider trading Jones and a prospect for Isringhausen, however.

"Hello again, everybody. Harry Caray from Wrigley Field on a beautiful day for baseball."

by danimal15 on Jul 17, 2007 4:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Not a big Izzy fan

To me he seems overrated. Sure he's got good stats this year and has had some descent save totals in the past but to me he is the quintessential "converted starter". He just doesn't intimidate me when he comes in the game, I always feel like he's going to melt down. Basically I don't think he is really an upper echelon closer, and for us to give up Theriot and a prospect plus Jones for a closer we don't really need I'd rather it be someone else. No disrespect meant to Izzy, I know it's just my perception of him, but I wouldn't be comfortable with him and that is too much to give up in my opinion. Jones and a prospect, sure. No Theriot though.

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jul 17, 2007 7:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

your point on Izzy

Is good.

He was a very good, intimidating closer when he started with Oakland, when he was throwing 95-97 mph.

He came to St. Louis and was a very good closer for about 2 years, then he turned into a pretty mediocre closer with good save totals, because of course, he was on a couple of 100 win teams.

However, after regaining his health, he seems to be, while not an intimidating closer, a VERY good closer again this year.

My intention is obviously not to come over here and bash your team, but Izzy this year is a major upgrade over Ryan Dempster. 2 points better on his ERA and Izzy is allowing less than a baserunner an inning. Howry, who is currently listed on the "closer report" on ESPN.com also isn't really the guy you'd probably like long-term in that role, giving up a 1.35 WHIP.

If this is what a team could count on for Izzy for this year and next(as he has a club option for next year at $8M), then he'd be highly desirable. Only Putz and Gagne have better ERAs than Izzy's 1.45.

However, if your pen is stable, I understand why you wouldn't want to give up a player of Theriot's energy level(not to mention a cheap player who you control the rights to for about 4-5 more years) to your biggest rival.

by mtalken on Jul 17, 2007 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i don't want izzy at all,

not even if he was free. i think he's way overrated, and i think a lot of his success, especially at this point in his career, has a lot to do with the way larussa (and duncan) handle him.

maybe if you could substitute izturis and eyre for theriot, and then we could ship izzy to some other team at once for another player, i'd be for it. otherwise, no way. you can keep him.

really, the only guys from the cards that i'd want are pujols of course, a healthy carp, wainwright, maybe the young duncan, and maybe molina, and i don't think we'll be getting any of those guys.

"If you play more than two chords, you're showing off."--Woody Guthrie

by buckmulligan on Jul 17, 2007 10:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I would refuse...

Giving up Theriot. I tell you, the guy's a flippin' sparkplug.

Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?

by Keith on Jul 17, 2007 11:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd do it...but this way...

Moore, Jones, and Fontenot for Izzy

Sign me up for that.

Although it is a lot to give up for a half season rental.

So instead, cut out Fontenot.

by FukudomeAtLarge on Jul 18, 2007 1:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

No deal at all. Zero.

Isringhausen is intriguing but he's not worth losting Theriot, Marshall or Fontenot. The Cubs are rocking with all of those guys making MAJOR contributions in this past wondrous stretch to remember. That's a little LESS tinkering the Cubs need to do right now. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Losing them ragin' Cajuns makes no sense. Losing what stability we have in the rotation also makes no sense. That's why I about blew my gasket when those morons at ESPN were saying Marshall had been shipped out for the Kendall trade .. then rapidly calmed down. And agreed, Jones isn't being hissed out of town. He's just not playing up to speed and as has been said, he's just not needed in the present scheme of things. At least he got a hit today. But when might we expect another one from him? His acquisition was a move Mr. Hendry made that clearly isn't working, especially when the line up is top heavy with outfielders. JJ's a good man and he can probably do better somewhere else, but his sub par performance has been a big disappointment. I wish him well and wish he'd move on where he can contribute more effectively.

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Jul 18, 2007 9:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs