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Around SBN: Iron Bowl Thoughts... Right Now

Five Questions: The Cardinals

With the Cubs meeting the Cardinals, beginning tonight, for the first time in three months, it seemed like the right time to exchange Five Questions with Larry over at Viva El Birdos. I'm posting both sets of questions and answers here, but you can also head over there and join the discussion. Despite the rivalry between the clubs, as I have written here many times, I have a great respect for Cardinal fans and their passion for their team, and Larry runs an excellent site and has become a friend.

First, my questions for him:

BCB: What is the single most important reason that the Cardinals sit five games under .500 and 8.5 games out of first place, not long after winning the World Series?

VEB: They haven't had Carpenter. He was the only certainty in the rotation heading into this season. Because of him, the Cardinals figured they could gamble on rotation slots 2 through 5 --- as long as a couple of the gambles worked out, they'd be solid at the top of the rotation. That's usually enough in the NL Central. When Carpenter got hurt, the whole formula fell apart.

Reasons 2 and 3 would be the precipitous dropoff in Edmonds' and Rolen's performance. Both have injury histories and are on the wrong side of 30, so it's not as if their declines were unforeseeable. The Cards gambled they could milk another good year out of both, and crapped out.

There are plenty of other things wrong with the team, too --- it's old, it's unmotivated, it's top heavy. But a healthy, productive ace can redeem a lot of sins. When Zambrano got hot (literally and figuratively), it turned the Cubs' season around. The Cards are the flip side of that coin --- without Carpenter to help mask their other shortcomings, they've been completely exposed.  

BCB: What has to happen for the Cardinals to start winning again, and do you really think they still have a chance at getting back in the race? They haven't won more than four in a row all year, and that was in April.

VEB: The Cards are toast; their season ended when Carpenter had to be shut down for good. Without him, they just don't have the pitching to sustain any success over a long period of time. If he were returning to the rotation this week as anticipated, he would have given them a fighting chance; I wouldn't be conceding the season. But it is what it is. With Carpenter out, I wouldn't expect the Cardinals to win the division even if they somehow managed to sweep all 7 games against the Cubs and the Brewers this week.

BCB: Who would you trade, right now, either from the major league team or from the Cardinals' farm system, for immediate (or future) major league help, and who would you be targeting for that help?

VEB: I wrote about that here. The Cardinals desperately need players who are a) young, b) patient at the plate, and c) fast. They've got hacktastic sluggers galore; no need for any more of those. They need a 25-year-old Luis Castillo type, someone to get on base ahead of Albert.

Oh yeah, and they need 2 or 3 good starting pitchers.

Unfortunately, the Cardinals don't have the organizational depth to pull off an acquisition like that. Isringhausen might bring a decent return, and David Eckstein might have some narrow appeal to the right team; I can imagine the Cubs liking Eckstein, but they and the Cardinals are certainly not going to help one another. There is said to be a trade market for Anthony Reyes, but he's no longer regarded as premium material. The Cardinals would surely trade guys like Russ Springer and Braden Looper and Juan Encarnacion, but I wouldn't expect much in return for them.

BCB: Who is the most pleasant surprise for the Cardinals this year?

VEB: Ryan Franklin --- he and Isringhausen have done as much as anyone to keep the Cardinals from falling 15 games under .500.

BCB: Who is the guy who you'd most say "I told you so" about, in terms of not meeting expectations, this season?

VEB: In terms of NOT meeting expectations, it'd be Edmonds --- back in November I expressed the unpopular opinion that they should buy out his option year and sign somebody else to play center. But then, the guy I thought the Cardinals should target as Edmonds' replacement was Dave Roberts, and that's a "told you so" in the opposite direction, because Roberts has been nearly as injury-prone and unproductive this year as Edmonds.

The biggest "told you so" story of the season has been Anthony Reyes, who is as divisive a figure as Cardinal Nation has seen in some time. About half the VEB community (including me) thought he'd be pretty good, and the other half never thought much of him; he's 0-10 with an era north of 6. Told you so . . . .

And, here are Larry's questions for me, and my responses:

VEB: For all the money the Cubs spent on free agents from other teams, the Cubs' fortunes this year ultimately have mirrored Zambrano's --- when he was doing poorly, they stunk, and when he turned it around, so did the team. With all the financial commitments they've already made, can the team afford to keep him? From a won-loss standpoint, can they possibly afford to let him go?

BCB: No, there's really no way they can let Z go, from a won-loss standpoint OR a psychological standpoint. He's so popular among Cubs fans (and without Kerry Wood, he is also the senior Cub in length of service, having been here since 2001). He means so much to the ballclub in so many ways.

Can they afford him? Sure they can. The team's going to be sold, obviously, in the next year or so. But any new owner would love to have a drawing card like Z, and even if they have to pay him $15 million plus per year, that's ... well, not quite chump change, but close, to anyone who's going to have to pay close to $1 billion for the franchise.

Z has a shot at a 20-win season this year. Only one Cub has done that in the last 15 years (Jon Lieber, 2001).

VEB: The Cubs are still not scoring all that many runs. They're 14th in the league in walks, 12th in homers, and only 8th in runs scored. Short of a big trade, is there anything they can do to goose the offense?

BCB: The home runs will come, I believe. Jacque Jones won't have two HR all year (same number as Ryan Theriot, and that won't last). Derrek Lee was just starting to hit them again when he started his suspension. That alone will help the run-scoring. 8th in runs scored -- that's a bit misleading, as there is a big bunch of teams from 3rd (Milwaukee, 472) to 9th (New York, 448). If the Cubs have a couple of big offensive days, they could climb three or four spots.

The consistency of the pitching staff, both starting and relieving, is a big reason for the winning surge of late -- and if this team is going to win anything, it's going to be with pitching.

VEB: If the Cubs do make a trade, do they have any talent they can send the other way that's sufficient to land an impact player?

BCB: Sure -- Ronny Cedeno and Felix Pie, both now tearing up Triple-A (since I wrote this, Cedeno is being recalled, effective today). Both have had their struggles at the major league level, but both are considered prospects, Pie more than Cedeno (I mean, Ronny was REALLY bad early on this year, going 3-for-31 and making more than his share of fielding and baserunning errors). But I can think of a number of teams (White Sox, for example) that could use a young shortstop.

VEB: Do you like the Jason Kendall acquisition?

BCB: Absolutely. His veteran experience, his game-calling (not his "defense" per se, as he really doesn't throw that well any more), and his enthusiasm for coming to the Cubs (he was greeted with a standing ovation in his first at-bat at Wrigley Field, which he said was "really cool") ought to make him a Damian Miller-type acquisition for the ballclub.

Miller, I am convinced, by his veteran handling of what was then a very young staff of Wood, Prior and Zambrano, helped the Cubs to win in 2003 more than any of his statistics showed. Kendall could do the same, and they really gave up almost nothing to get him.

VEB: Which pitcher do you most fear a collapse from --- Marquis, Marshall, or Hill?

BCB: Well, I think I know what you're wanting to hear here -- that I expect Jason Marquis to collapse, thus allowing all of you Cardinal fans to fulfill your prophecy about his second-half collapses, as he had several times while pitching in St. Louis.

It's true that Marquis was pretty bad for almost two months. He seemed to get it back in his last start last Friday against the Diamondbacks. I think he's got it together, and you'll see it for yourselves on Thursday night.

The weakest link is probably Marshall, who has the least experience of any of the Cub starters, but he threw well on Sunday, despite losing to Arizona. Starting pitching has been a real strength for the Cubs -- all but six games (three by Angel Guzman, three by Wade Miller) have been started by the current starting five.

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Cards Fans...
Al, I agree with your respect for the Cardinals fans (in spite of my signature below!).  Living in died-in-the-wool Cardinals territory, we all know there are a few bad apples but more often than not there is good natured ribbing going on.  Very nice post and I appreciate your work.
Proudly waving the Cubbie Blue in the middle of redbird inbreds!

by Tater01 on Jul 24, 2007 8:50 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

larry
great questions and answers from larry. viva el birdos is a great blog, too. good stuff.

by jacob on Jul 24, 2007 8:53 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

good stuff
I read VEB from time to time. It's usually a pretty good read.
AC 00 00 00 - BELIEVE

by mike on Jul 24, 2007 8:56 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm not so sure about
Cedeno bringing much at all, Al.  His absurd June where he hit almost .450 has given way to the much more Ronny-like July in which he's hit just over .290 with a K/BB ratio of 3/1.  He's racing back to bucket of balls territory trade-wise.

by TR on Jul 24, 2007 9:01 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Tired of the nice
I am so sick of the nicey-nicey garbage.

They laugh at us behind our backs after shaking our hands. Spit on them, step on their throats, do not let them up.

Make fun of LaRussa's DUI. Make fun of Pujols pulling his love handles. Make fun of Edmonds and Rolen deteriorating right before our eyes.

Hate them. Hate them with every fiber of your being. They are the Yankees to our Red Sox.

And clog the toilets with toilet paper before you leave their stadium.

by lancaster99 on Jul 24, 2007 9:12 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I respectfully disagree.
Yankee fans and Red Sox fans really hate each other.

I'd like to think that Cardinal and Cub fans don't.

And incidentally, a DUI is nothing to laugh about. Period. No matter who's involved.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, well,
Neither are the injuries to Wood and Prior, or the death of Harry Caray, or the other garbage I've listened to from Cards fans over the years.

Every Cardinal fan is basically Al Hrabosky. Keep that in mind next time you deal with one.

by lancaster99 on Jul 24, 2007 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

point well taken
And the best way to get back is for the Cubs to go out there and put on a fundamental's display: H&R, going to the opposite field, suicide squeeze and most of all, pitching efficiency (low # pitches / inning).

I completely ignore the asswipe that is Hrabosky. As an announcer, if one cannot speak of good mind about the opponent, then that simply shows his ignorance. He'd make a good WhiteSox fan.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't a lot of home runs...
...do the job as well?
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Jul 24, 2007 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

At the right time,
but not too long ago the Cubs were a HR happy team. They were near the top of the league in HR and near the bottom in runs scored. Think they led the NL, maybe even all of MLB with % runs scored via the round-tripper, something like 45%.

So HR are great but if they're not at the right time, it doesn't necessarily translate into wins.

I like how the media talked about no HR in that 10-game stretch, like the sky was falling. So what. The Cubs were 7-3 in those 10 games. Wins is what counts. Hey, if they blast out 3 tonight and win, that's great. If they single and double Wells into submission, that's great too. All I want is more Cubs wins.  

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll admit it...
I am jealous of them Redbirds always being in a pennant race.

Why a City of 1MM people or less has a team that is always succeeding, while the NL rep from the nation's third largest city is hard pressed to have winning seasons, has always irked me.

Thanks, Al for the interesting reading today, in any case. Very insightful.

It is July, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Jul 24, 2007 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I understand what you mean...
But you're off about 1.8 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_St._Louis

Plus, the Cardinals are a regional draw. Much like Wrigley is a destination spot for vacationers, Busch is a regular stop for people in a five or six state area. I personally know of season ticket holders that drive from as far away as 100 miles, one way, to get there.

Trust me, I feel your pain when it comes to being envious of their success. I moved here in 2000 and had to watch them enjoy post-season runs every year but one. But, when it comes to the Cardinals financial situation, I'd bet it's a lot closer to Atlanta than it is to Pittsburgh.

"Whoever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" - Frank Chance

by STLCubFan on Jul 24, 2007 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most of my family
my dad and myself excepted, are Cardinals fans; I'd like to think they're not the exception that proves the rule. Moreover, I've traveled to Busch Stadium (haven't made it to the new park yet) for Cubs-Cards games and, aside from some good natured ribbing, had a rather pleasant experience. During the series here, I sat behind four guys from St. Louis and we had a blast. Now there were four Cards fans in front of them that even they were annoyed with, but we've also got fans who throw trash on the field. Every fan base has its morons and meatheads; I doubt you would want to be adjudged by the standard of the trash-tossing d-bags, so don't hold Cardinals fans to the standard of their worst examples, either.
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 24, 2007 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
I sat next to a Cardinal fan at Dodger Stadium when the Cubs were there this season, and we had a lovely conversation throughout the game.  

My roommate freshman year in college was a Cardinal fan.  We gave each other shit, but we certainly were able to watch games together civilly and we could talk baseball all the time.

Cardinal fans are nothing like Yankee or Red Sox fans.

by Josh77 on Jul 24, 2007 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please
never again in your life compare us to the Red Sox.  That is all.  Thank you.

by jshipp on Jul 24, 2007 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have to disagree too
I am passionate about the Cubs. There are few things that put a spring in my step like a Cubs win, and likewise, few things that put a damper on my day like a Cubs loss.  

That being said, I just can't find it in me to hate another human being over a baseball game.  Life is too short for that.  The guys cheering for the other team, be it the Cards, the Brewers, the Yankees, the White Sox, or whomever, are people just like us (in fact, they are often a lot like us - love baseball, love their team).  

So my philosophy is to hope the Cubs beat the Cards 100% of the time, but when all that is over, I can still shake hands and respect the other guy, no matter where his loyalties lie.

by SuperContext on Jul 24, 2007 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mostly agree
I can't hate anyone over their choice of baseball team.  Unless they're Yankees fans.
"Don't think; it can only hurt the ball club."

by Jesse Guam on Jul 24, 2007 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
I'm a die hard Cardinal fan from VEB and gotta say I agree life`s too short to hate people over a game.
I used to hate Cubs fans because in 05 at old Busch I was at a Cubs-Cardinals game and a Cubs fan stood up and flipped the whole section off in front of a group of little kids.
I hated Cubs fans for that but I lost both my grandparents in 06 and it put into perspective that life's way too short to hate people over a game.
Also Al I have to compliment you on a very good blog.

by Calhoun on Jul 24, 2007 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very wise words.
Thanks, and as I said, I have respect for Cardinal fans -- and VEB is a terrific blog, too.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So that's one...
...idiot. I think he got lost on his way to see the WWF.
da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And people are letting these guys get to them?
Ignore them, enjoy the Cubs and enjoy the game!

GO CUBS!!!

by GoCubbies34 on Jul 24, 2007 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I ignore 'em
pisses 'em off even more.

Kind of funny how things change over time or how things are different with different sports.

This guy shows up in Chicago Stadium (70's and 80's) wearing a Blues shirt with that sign? He's either very brave or very, very stupid.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

99 percent of them
Are just like that

by lancaster99 on Jul 24, 2007 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

surprised by some of the venom
i'm a cardinal fan living in iowa, i'm surrounded by cub fans. i really enjoy talking to them, they are passionate fans. i thought it was a supposed to be a friendly rivalry...

by erik on Jul 24, 2007 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're an embarassment...
to rational baseball fans everywhere. I'm sure the Cubs are glad to have you representing their fanbase.

by FriendlyCardFan on Jul 24, 2007 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Surprised what you said about Z.....
Given that you were insistent we trade him in the wake of his fight with Barrett. But then he got hot and now, ethical stance aside, he's untouchable?

Hm.

Besides the obvious - Go Irish.

Z. He doesn't need an exclamtion point. He is one.

by PopeFlick on Jul 24, 2007 9:16 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I changed my mind because...
... Z himself said that the fight woke him up -- you may recall I posted the link to the article in which his own kids asked him why he fought with Barrett, and that seemed to change his entire attitude, focus him more.

Sure, he's performing. But more than that, he seems a changed man. It's all positive.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We have to sign Z
You just cannot let an Ace go that's as young as Carlos.  If he was 34 - different story.  Sign him now, the new buyer should appreciate it.  It will be money well spent.

by Ihatethecards on Jul 24, 2007 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Z is night and day
from what he was in April and May, there is no doubt.  It is a good thing that he is pitching up to his physical abilities, because the Cubs need that to have a shot at the playoffs.  What bothers me is the pattern Z has shown the last few years.  He seems to have a need to hit bottom during the season, before he can crank it up, and that is not a good trend.

If he is going to develop into a true ace, he needs to show he can be relatively consistant from April until October, and avoid the first 12 starts being far below his capabilities.  IMO, you can't call him a premiere pitcher until he gets over this hump, and lets hope he can in a Cub uniform.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 24, 2007 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gotcha!
Although I don't post as often as before, I read daily and had forgotten the link to his kids question. I should have, because I remember you were throwing him under the bus at one point. Let's face it - Barrett was the troublemaker.
Besides the obvious - Go Irish.

Z. He doesn't need an exclamtion point. He is one.

by PopeFlick on Jul 24, 2007 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still think
we should trade Z if we cannot sign him by the deadline. I'd like him to stay, of course, but we've seen this before. And as much as he says he wants to play for us, when the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, whomever else come calling, the money will do the talking. I'd hate for the Cubs to end up with nothing.

If we are going to sign him, I'd be doing anything possible to get it done right now, by the end of day tomorrow.

"Mine, mine, says the squirrel to the transformer, unclear on the capacities of electricity." -Dean Young

by Kegler on Jul 24, 2007 9:26 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Not while the team is contending.
If you can win with Z this year, even if he leaves afterward, you do it.

I still think he'll stay.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think....
Z has too much connection and heart in Chicago.  it is going to take alot more than money to get him to leave.  (with this being said, i am figuring the Cubs will make a competitive offer that is not too far off from the above mentioned teams)

by HIGGY on Jul 24, 2007 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I sure hope so,
but money talks, BS walks. If the Cubs don't do a 5 for 80 or 85, you'll see the BoSox, Angels or the Evil Empire jump all over him with a Zito-like offer come this fall.

Bud lite was even rumored to have made a special trip to ChiTown this past spring to talk to the wonks in the ivory tower. His mission was to get "Z" signed so MLB doesn't have another Zito contract. If Zito is worth 126 for 7, what is "Z" worth?

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not much BS in Chicago right now though...
Soriano for 8 years.

Lee for 5 years.

Ramierez for 5 years.

Lilly and Marquis signings.

What type of signings have the Giants made that lean towards the future?  None really...

by HIGGY on Jul 24, 2007 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good input, however
none of those guys is considered a staff ace; some even being position players. It's the market comparison for what's considered similar performing players. I use the 80-85 for 5 'cuz that will yield the per annum simliar to Zito.

Not worried about the Giants signings pointing to their future. There's a data point out there and it's 126 for 7, given to a front-line starter.

Plus since "Z" is young, he's probably smart to stay in the 4-5 year range. This way he'll be in position for 1 more big FA contract before he's done. That's what Furcal did after '05. He signed for less total money from the Dodgers (though per season it was more than the Cubs offer) and 3 years. This way at the end of that contract, he's 31 and has a chance for one more big payday.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

what?
there is absolutely no way we should let Z leave

by holycow07 on Jul 24, 2007 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A Staff Ace
is tough to find, let alone develop.  The Cubs had three for a short time, but then Woods and Prior started to crumble.  Give Z the $15M/yr for 5 years, and hopefully his daughters will keep him in line during that time.

What worries me for the rest of the season is a LOOGY out of the bullpen.  With Ohman and Eyre both struggling, Uncle Lou does not have much to choose from.  I'd rather see a hard-throwing righty challenge a left-handed hitter than a weak LOOGY coming in on an important AB.  Maybe Woods can be that guy.

Pie, Fontenot, Theriot and Soto up the middle ... yippie oh, oh, oh!

by SpudV on Jul 24, 2007 9:43 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope your talking about Tiger Woods
Because Kerry Wood is about as reliable as a(place unreliable thing here)
"The game is always healthier when the Cubs are good, and in a week they have made themselves a whole lot better."

by BillHoldenFan on Jul 24, 2007 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
for clearing that up - I can't remember if Kerry gets the "s" or not in his last name.  I don't think the Cubs could afford Tiger, although he may be an excellent RF with power to all fields.  He'll probably be a billionaire in a few more years, though, and could buy the Cubs himself.
Pie, Fontenot, Theriot and Soto up the middle ... yippie oh, oh, oh!

by SpudV on Jul 24, 2007 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed....
I wasn't trying to be mean... I just have this love/hate thing with Kerry Wood...
"The game is always healthier when the Cubs are good, and in a week they have made themselves a whole lot better."

by BillHoldenFan on Jul 24, 2007 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL
"One thing you learn as a Cubs fan: When you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth." - Joe Garagiola

by gary varsho on Jul 24, 2007 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kendall/ OFF output
at what point does Kendall's lack of offensive proficiency or his Michael Barrett-esque arm begin to overwhelm these intangibles that he brings to the club?

Also at what point do you think we need to make a move offensively? As Larry noted we haven't exactly been a great offensive club throughout the majority of the season and as the season has progressed we've traded away offense for defense at catcher

at some point dont you think that lost offense needs to be made up? Either in RF, CF, or maybe by playing Soto instead of Kendall?

who knows maybe Kendall gets it going... but everything in this years data suggests that's not likely

I agree with you to some extent that this team will be carried by their pitching, but Marquis and Marshall specifically are posting significantly better numbers (ERA) than their peripherals indicate, which USUALLY suggests a regression is coming....

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 24, 2007 10:10 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Geez!
Kendall has played four games as a Cub. I'd think I'd be willing to give him a little more time before I declare him a failure.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i understand
i'm not asking you to write him off NOW

i'm asking "when would you"

what evidence would be enough for you to change your opinion on this acquisition?

that's all i'm asking

personally, i didnt like the acquisition and i would be willing to change my mind if i saw 3 solid weeks of Kendall getting on base and working pitchers (grinding through AB's)

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 24, 2007 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

When to write him off,
when the team has a worse winning percentage than it and SD has with Barrett, .406....

The Cubs and SD are a combined 28-41 with Barrett behind the plate.

Without anyone named Barrett behind the plate, the Cubs and SD are a combined 76-49 (.608).

So there's my reference point, how much better can the Cubs be with Kendall behind the plate as opposed to Barrett.

The whole reason for Kendall is an experienced catcher that can work with the staff and not make them have to think out on the mound. If a pitcher is wondering about the catcher not being able to handle a 1-2 slider in the dirt with a guy on 3rd, his effectiveness goes down the toilet. I believe Kendall will work with the staff and will need 12-15 games behind the plate for us to see that start to happen.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

so...
if the Cubs go 28-37 (.430 winning% the rest of the way) we're happy with Kendall?

that seems silly

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 24, 2007 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A lot better
.430 the rest of the way with anyone won't get the Cubs anything other than early t-times in early October.

The Cubs got Kendall (cheaply BTW) because they think he won't have the defensive lapses Barrett had and he can call a better game.

And the comparison I was making was 400-ball with Barrett, 600-ball without him.

Think about that, 4 wins in 10 with Barrett. With anyone else, 6 wins in 10.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

there's a lot more that goes into winning games
than the C behind the plate

scheduling, pitching matchups, etc all play a factor

the Cubs went through an extremely LIGHT schedule loaded with PIT, WAS's, etc directly after Barrett was traded and that helped quite a bit

to judge one position simply by W's and L's when a player is silly because its not the only thing that determines whether a team wins and loses

i think we have a better record when Daryle Ward starts at 1B than when DLee does, does this mean we should start Ward at 1B?

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 24, 2007 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm still giving Kendall a chance
All I know is the team seemed lost with Barrett back there, especially after the fight. Then with him gone, they catch fire? Too coincidental.

I'm willing to wait for Kendall to have a minimum of 12 games behind the plate, more towards 15-16 before judgement can be passed.

I thought the deal was good when it was announced and still think so.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't go around
making contingency plans for when my recent acquisition fails.

I'm going to assume he will succeed.  If it comes to a point where he has become a failure, that point will make itself clear.

Before that, there's no point in even considering it.

by Josh77 on Jul 24, 2007 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

similarly
at what point would you say we need more offensive production?

its easy to turn a blind eye to things when we're wining and cater to the mantra if it aint broke dont fix it...

but that's ignoring a much larger sample of games (the entire season) and instead choosing to focus on a smaller portion (say a 25 game span)

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 24, 2007 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Four games...
...where he's looked pretty much like he has all season.  That is, horrible.

There are two huge problems with Kendall.  One, he has clearly lost his bat speed.  He can still make contact, but it's rarely with any authority.  Two, some of his catching skills are clearly quite bad.  Those are indicative of problems that he is unlikely to just snap out of.

Sure, the Cubs didn't give up much to get him, and it would be very difficult for him to be worse than what they had before, so I wouldn't say it was a mistake for the Cubs to have picked him up.  However, he has done nothing to fix the glaring problem the Cubs have behind the plate, and I have little confidence that it's going to get any better.

by dvdmgsr on Jul 24, 2007 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's see what happens...
... in the next month. Then maybe it'd be time to give more time to Soto, or even Hill.

As long as the team is winning, stick with what you've got. Obviously, Kendall's not likely to return in 2008, and then other options can be explored.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm surprised Soto..
didn't get more of a look-see. What did he get, 5 at bats? Do they not believe in him or think he has more to work on in AAA?
Well, sometimes nothin is a real cool hand.

by wicubfan on Jul 24, 2007 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
  1. Hill was out of options, couldn't go back to minors unless he passes waivers
  2. Kendall has experience and history of doing decently well in the majors
  3. Like you said, Soto only had 5 at bats.  We can't be relying on him down the stretch, and we can always bring him back up if needed, but don't count on it.  Let him get nurtured in AAA and we can utilize him next year.

by GoCubbies34 on Jul 24, 2007 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who else was out there...
...that the Cubs could actually get?
da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

they may not NEED to have gotten anyone
they have a catcher at AAA with an OPS above .900

why not play him?

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 24, 2007 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because he's a Triple-A catcher!!!
I don't care what a guy hits at Iowa. Is Soto ready to be the starting catcher for a playoff contender, with as little ML experience as he has?

I say no. There is more to being a winning ML catcher than a few stats on a Triple-A spreadsheet.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly
AAA don't mean shit up here. Pie was tearing it up in AAA. Where is he now, back in AAA.

Catching is one position where a stable and experienced guy is desired for the stretch run.

If all the starters are comfortable with Kendall back there, then Jimbo accomplished what he set out to do.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this "winning catcher" thing
maybe we should have traded for Mike Rabelo, the Tigers are 5-2 when he starts....

i dont understand why we're working backwards in terms of evaluating the position

we're taking a team statistic and correlating it directly with ONE player's value

that's silly

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 24, 2007 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's 7 games,
one week...I'm talking about the 69 games with Barrett and the 125 without him, across 2 teams and 20+ total pitchers.

Call it silly, but the Cubs could not enter the stretch run with 2 back-ups, 'cuz that's what Hill and Bowen are, back-ups.

It's not like the Yanks were going to cough up Posada or the Cats giving us Pudge.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and Kendall's #'s right now
suggest he's nothing more than a backup as well

that's my only point, that from the looks of it the trade was not an upgrade at Catcher

Kendall's been the 2nd worst offensive regular in the entire major leagues this year behind only Dionner Navarro

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 24, 2007 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK...
...other than Soto, who's out there?
da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

there probably isnt much else out there
that we could've gone after

we could've checked in on Ramon Hernandez i suppose

but their just werent a lot of options. I'm not suggesting Hendry made a bad deal, because he gave up very little to get Kendall and its a gamble worth taking

the only issue is Lou is in love with playing veterans and by giving him an established guy in Kendall he's going to ride him the rest of the year and we'll never get a chance to see if Soto can contribute right away. With Bowen and Hill on the roster, we could've see what Soto would've given us and then decided if Kendall was an upgrade

Kendall wasnt going anywhere and the A's were dying to unload him, so much that they were willing to pay money to unload him (something Beane almost never does)

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 24, 2007 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yet another variable
Hill is out of minor league options, so a swap of him and Soto may not work. He'd have to pass through waivers before being sent down.

So to get Soto up here the Cubs either risk losing Hill to a waiver pick, he's traded or the Cubs carry three catchers.

I think Lou pushed Barrett out. I do like his willingness to play the youngsters. Who thought back when the Cubs were in Mesa that Fontenot would be up here?

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right on Al...
...no way on earth, do you go into a playoff stretch with a catcher with no major league experience.  With the effect a catcher has on the pitching staff and the entire team, it would be pure suicide.

It took Piniella 8 weeks to push Barrett out the door after he was here for 3 1/2 years, do you think he is going to finish the year with a rookie catcher?

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 24, 2007 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No one...
Like I said, I was not against the move, and while it would have been reasonable to give Soto a look, I don't see him being a Savior either.

In any case, if Kendall doesn't start to show something, the Cubs should DFA him and bring Soto up.  In the meanwhile, we just have to hope that the team can endure sub-replacement level performance from their catchers.

by dvdmgsr on Jul 24, 2007 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

More than enough time.
Al, I think four days is more than enough time to judge a player, I mean, last year Jacque Jones got about a game and a half before people were booing him religiously.  Kendall should be happy he got four games.

by eamuscatuli1881 on Jul 24, 2007 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The guy has played 1,600
major league baseball games, and you are going to judge him on four?

I hate to tell ya, but player evaluations don't quite work that way, not in the big leagues at least.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 24, 2007 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kendall
If Kendall can call a good game, help the pitchers not only keep the batters off balance but pitch efficiently, his affect on the team will mirror that of Damian Miller in '03.

No one will ever confuse Jason Kendall with Johnny Bench, but the ability to be the backstop that the pitchers want to throw to; especially a slider in the dirt on a 1-2 pitch and a runner on 3rd will help the Cubs significantly.

da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that 03 team
could afford a weak hitting catcher behind the plate because by the end of the season they were above average offensively in LF, CF, RF, 3B and average at 1B, 2B.. meaning they were only below average at SS and C

they could afford that

this team is above average in LF, 3B, 1B

average at 2B

below average at SS, C, CF, RF

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 24, 2007 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damian Miller being weak in 2003...
...and Jason Kendall being weak in 2007 are on a completely different level.

Miller had an OPS+ of 78 in 2003.  Kendall is sitting at 44.  I'll be quite satisfied if Kendall can bring his numbers up to where Miller's were in 2003.

by dvdmgsr on Jul 24, 2007 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
we shouldn't let him leave. But if he's not signed, there's a good chance he'll skidaddle. I really don't want my November-December to be consumed by worrisome thoughts about Z's possible signing with anyone else.

It's interesting, Al, that you mention riding him toward a hopeful championship this year and then let him leave if he's going to leave. We may not have a choice otherwise, but it'd be extremely heartbreaking, and I suppose that makes it perfect for us Cub fans, if we were to come close again, fail, and then lose our best pitcher to FA. Ugh. The thought of it makes me want to toss my Pop Tarts.

"Mine, mine, says the squirrel to the transformer, unclear on the capacities of electricity." -Dean Young

by Kegler on Jul 24, 2007 10:17 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That's a valid point.
But I think we have to ride him, because without him, ANY chance at a title drops precipitously.

I think he's staying. The only question is when he'll sign.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kendall and Z
I am hoping, in fact I'd say it will be likely, that Jason Kendall will pick it up on the road this week.

Get those signs ready for the "Sign Z Please" campaign, 8/3-8/5 against the Mets!

It is July, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Jul 24, 2007 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

For the sake of us all
I hope you're right.
"Mine, mine, says the squirrel to the transformer, unclear on the capacities of electricity." -Dean Young

by Kegler on Jul 24, 2007 10:29 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Soto
excites me, too. But you just can't have a rookie catcher - coming up mid-season, too - behind the plate for the vast majority of games during a playoff push. That's just trouble. I'd like to see Soto a couple times a week. Let Kendall get the rest of the playing time and hope he warms up a little and calls a good game.

Frankly, I'm more concerned with getting one more bat in RF and another arm in the pen.

"Mine, mine, says the squirrel to the transformer, unclear on the capacities of electricity." -Dean Young

by Kegler on Jul 24, 2007 10:39 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The whole fan-hatred thing
is absurd. It's fun to kid each other and debate and argue, but to lose sight of it being only a game is ridiculous. The Cubs are very important to me, sure, but they mean absolutely nothing compared to my family, friends, etc. And my family and friends are Cubs, Sox, and Cards fans, primarily.

Hell, my wife is a big Packers fan; I'm a Bear fan, though we're both from Chicago. You make your deals, that's all. I told her I'd let my kids be raised as Packers fans as long as they were also Cub fans, and that's what we're doing. And I still get to be a Bear fan, too. But it's all just good times. There is far too much crap in the world to take anything too seriously.

"Mine, mine, says the squirrel to the transformer, unclear on the capacities of electricity." -Dean Young

by Kegler on Jul 24, 2007 10:49 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Winning it=complacency with players?
There seems to be a tendency to "stand pat'' after a big-breakthrough season...it was pretty obvious Edmonds was on the downslide but he was the popular centerpiece of a WS champion, so it's an understandable mistake.

Kenny Williams shook things up a bit going for Vasquez after the Sox won it all but kept the everyday lineup pretty much intact (minus Frank Thomas, adding Thome was big upgrade there)...some of those players aren't producing like they did in '05.

How well I remember the Cubs brought back all their key components, especially pitchers, after the big '84 season--Eckersley, Trout and maybe another was a free agent (they did dump Lee Smith though, which turned out to be a huge mistake)...and in '98 after that team snuck in, they brought back Lance Johnson, Gary Gaetti, Glenallen, etc., and it turned out they didn't have much left in the tank.

So, you gotta keep shakin it up it seems, but with the right moves...Cards inactivity and failure to do anything to solidify the pitching staff (besides resigning Mulder and extending Carpenter) is really haunting them now and they look like a pretty bad team for the forseeable future.

by writerinwrigley on Jul 24, 2007 10:51 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think complacency...
...is the problem with the Cardinals this year. The Cardinals weren't exactly a "great" and maybe not even a "good" ballclub last year. It wasn't until the last three days of the season that the Cards were able to hold off the Astros and the Reds for the division. And those teams are in the toilet this year, too.

What it comes down to, I think, are that the Cardinals had three keys to success coming into this season:


  1. Carpenter holding down the rotation.
  2. The rest of the scrubs they brought in to pitch being roughly acceptable and putting the ball into play against a stellar defense.
  3. Pujols, Rolen and Edmonds providing enough offense to win.

Carpenter's elbow has pretty much disintegrated, the scrubs they brought in are pretty much what you would expect and the Cardinals defense is attrocious, and none of those three are having as big of years as they have had before. But you could live with the offense if the starting rotation could put anything together; they can't. Duncan's magic pitcher reclaimation revolves around "pitching to contact;" it doesn't work well when nobody out on the field can catch the ball. Miles has started more games at short than you can justify in any sort of a playoff race and the outfield has been pretty attrocious defensively from the word go, if I recall correctly.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Jul 24, 2007 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Woooah....
to say Carp's elbow disintegrated is a gross exaggeration. While I agree that most of the other pitchers we've used ARE scrubs, it is certainly not the case for all of them. Wainwright is turning into the pitcher he is capable of, and is a capable mediocre #2, good #3 pitcher. Reyes, has the talent to be good, but seems to be missing the mental makeup, and Thompson has the stuff to be a servicable #4/#5 pitcher.

Everything else you said though, I agree with. Our defense has been disgusting this year, our pitching can't string together quality starts, and our offense is very hot and cold.

by FriendlyCardFan on Jul 24, 2007 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course the line about Carpenter...
...was a gross exageration; if nothing else the physics of it would be impressive to say the least. But since Carpenter's elbow issues are well known, I don't see the harm in a little bit of poetic license.

As for the scrubs... I suppose I'll give you Adam Wainwright. Although the numbers he's put up this year are more 2nd-3rd starterish, as he's just barely above the league average in performance. Reyes, so far as I can discern (and I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong here, as I don't follow it as closely as Cards fans, I'm sure) doesn't really count because LaRussa and Duncan don't seem to really want him, and they don't seem to know what to do with him when he's thrust upon them.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Jul 24, 2007 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't know if has been mentioned here already but
Since the arrival of Barrett, Peavy and Maddux are both 0 - 4 with ERA's above 4.

Our team's ERA has gone from 9th to 3rd in MLB, since his departure.

Coincidence? I think not. The trade for Kendall is just another Pinella move that was good for baseball. He is not flashy and is not going to go back to All-Star numbers, but he is good for the pitching staff, and pitching wins down the stretch.

by louslovechild on Jul 24, 2007 11:50 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Wow!!!!
Maybe Barrett should find somewhere to play the outfield or DH.
Hey Lou, we're long overdue.

by deadcatbounce on Jul 24, 2007 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Iirc SD's record w/ Barrett
behind the plate is pretty awful.  I think the Cubs catch SD by the end of this week....  Only 1 1/2 back now.
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Jul 24, 2007 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe, but Atlanta is getting hot and....
they have a crafty GM who will make a move when needed, along with an extra catcher (Salta...) that everyone wants.

They are the team to worry about.

by louslovechild on Jul 24, 2007 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,,,
probably should be more concerned w/ ATL....  They're a half game up on the Cubs...
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Jul 24, 2007 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Braves...
... may yet catch the Mets, and then we'd be competing for the WC with the Mets. Still have a series left with NY, none with Atl.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

doubt that
biggest thing the Cubs have going for them is being in the NL Central and having an easier schedule than either ATL or SD...
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Jul 24, 2007 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My two cents say
forget about the Cardinal bashing, we have bigger birds to fry....leave Kendall alone, he'll pay big dividends down the stretch calling a game even if he is a light hitter. One big thing we need is SORIANO THE MILLIONS'sss DOLLAR MAN to start playing big boy baseball. I expect HR's, SB's and more consistent hitting from him. He's only had one fairly hot stretch. If he's worth that much, let's show it over the next 2 1/2 months! In the past two weeks I see him start the game with K's then the Cajun's get on base and either Lee or Aram him them in. if we're going to win the division, Soriano is needed on base.
This is Harry Carray, goodbye from Wrigley Field and So Long Everybody.

by mrcubsfan on Jul 24, 2007 11:57 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Sori
Wait till he's on the road and he gets to play in more night games.  He'll come alive this road trip.  Wait and See.  I like the guy but it seems he's very fragile psychologically:  if he's not in LF (or when he was here in DC, at 2nd base--remember the fit he had here when he refused to play unless it was 2nd base?), or if he's not batting first, or if it's too cold, then he's "uncomfortable".  Oh, well.  I still like him :-)

by zevkalman on Jul 24, 2007 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope you're right
besides being fragile he likes to ride the showboat. If he backs it up OK, he not backing it up enough for me right now....
This is Harry Carray, goodbye from Wrigley Field and So Long Everybody.

by mrcubsfan on Jul 24, 2007 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah
haha i completely agree...i'm hopeful that the night games on the road will get him well-rested and he'll hit his stride in the next 10 games or so.  he said in a recent article that he's having trouble dealing with the day games

by holycow07 on Jul 24, 2007 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great story: Just got back from a weekend trip
A best-friend annual reunion of sorts, where my big group of close friends get together. This year, we went to Tampa to see the new baby. My good friend Christine married a Cardinals fan named Joe. And over the last several years, Joe and I have become really good friends. However... there is a lot of Cubs-Cards trash talk between the two of us...

So, I decided to have a little fun with him. All my friends were in on it with me for the entertainment value of it all. I bought a HUGE Cubs logo magnet before I made the trip. First... I put it right on the fridge during the first night there. It lasted about an hour before he discovered it and ripped it off and threw it at me.

That night, when he went to sleep, I put it on the back of his SUV, knowing he would have to drive to work the next morning. Sure enough, he drove all the way to work (about a 30 minute drive) without knowing... until he walked into the front door of his office, where he saw his brother (they own a biz together) chuckling and slapping his knee. He went back outside and threw it in the trash. We stopped by his office and recovered it (without him knowing). All night long he was saying, "It's over... it's in the trash."

Low and behold, Monday morning when he left for work, I put it on his garage door, so the whole neighborhood could see it on his house. Wish I could've seen his face when he got home that night!

1-RUN GAMES = 13-16 | EXTRA INNINGS = 1-6 | HOME = 27-24 | updated on 7/23

by SackMan on Jul 24, 2007 12:15 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Great Story!
I did a similar thing to my brother, the Cards fan. I hit him where it really hurt. His son, my one and only dear nephew at the moment, is being raised a Cards fan. It has been a joke since his birth that I will make a Cubs fan out of him.

About a year ago, I purchased a little Cubs jersey on eBay for him. While I was watching him one day, I took him to my parent's house where we took several dozen pictures of him running around in the jersey. We picked out our favorites and got really creative with them.

With the magic of a computer and good printer, we made sheets of stickers, magnets, window clingys, signs, and the icing on the cake, a onesie with an iron on transfer of him in the jersey (which we hid under his shirt and sent him home in).

We hid our creations everywhere. On the inside of the lid of his formula can, in the bottom of his diaper bag, on the windows of their apartment etc. It took him nearly a week to find all of them. And I got a call or an e mail about each one. Man it was fun! I know my brother can't wait for me to start a family!

Uh, Lord, hallowed be Thy name. May our feet be swift; may our bats be mighty; may our balls... be plentiful. ~ Jimmy Dugan

by love the ivy on Jul 24, 2007 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh man... that was awesome
That just filled my head with all kinds of ideas.
I originally wanted to buy a sheet of cubs stickers to play with... thinking I could've put them all over the house in hidden spots. But, I never made it to one of the shops across from the ballpark where they might sell stickers. I settled for the magnet at Dominick's. I also bought a Cubs baby bib there... thought the little tike is only 3 months old. So, I'll save that one for later!
1-RUN GAMES = 13-16 | EXTRA INNINGS = 1-6 | HOME = 27-24 | updated on 7/23

by SackMan on Jul 24, 2007 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

AWESOME!
It is July, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Jul 24, 2007 1:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Larry over at Viva El Birdos
seems like a very thoughtful, friendly and kind man.

But he's still a damn dirty Cards fan.  :P

Well done both of you guys!

by Joe on Jul 24, 2007 1:33 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I agreed with all your answers Al
except for the last one.

I really believe Marshal has his head screwed on more straight than Hill.

I think Rich has a little more talent but when his curve ball isn't working he seems to freak out and start giving up Home Runs.

Marshal has found ways to get ground balls even with his curve ball not working.

So if any of our starters start to drop off I think Hill will because he struggles more when he doesn't have have A-Game.

by Joe on Jul 24, 2007 1:49 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Strong agreement regarding Marshall
I also believe he has much more moxie than Rich Hill, and I think will be more reliable down the stretch.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 24, 2007 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What do people have against Marshall?
I havn't seen anything that makes me think he can't be a strong pitcher down the line.  He is young with a lot of upside (and a tall mofo) yet anytime theres talk of trade, he is always the first to get mentioned.  He is one pitcher I don't want to give up (well second to Zambrano)!  But I don't want any of our pitchers gone.

by GoCubbies34 on Jul 24, 2007 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I said that because...
... I think Hill has more experience than Marshall. I like both of them, but Hill a bit more.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hill may have pitched more games
but I don't think he is as strong as Marshall upstairs.  I hope they both have a stellar finish, but the two guys that worry me in the 2nd half, are Hill and Marquis.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 24, 2007 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also...
Marshall gets very little run support. From the Tribune after his last start...
"Actually, the overmatched offense should have come as no surprise with Sean Marshall on the mound. While he was in the game during his last five starts, Marshall has received two or fewer runs. In his four losses, Marshall has received a total of three runs."

by GoCubbies34 on Jul 24, 2007 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

my comments on Marshall
from the fantasy site I write for (www.insiderbaseball.com)

to sum it up, Marshall's pitching well above his peripheral indicators and isnt this good. He's a very valuable commodity to the Cubs and someone that makes for a really good back end of the rotation guy #4 or #5 with a ceiling of a #3 on a championship caliber team... playing in the NL Central he can be a servicable #3, but match him up against AL lineups and things can get ugly quickly because he surrenders too many HR's and doesnt K enough guys

Hill's a much better pitcher and I think most people that are "down" on Marshall are only "down on him" in the sense that they dont think he's a top of the rotation starter

Sean Marshall:

Marshall strung together another quality start allowing only 2 earned runs in 6 innings against the Diamondbacks on Sunday. He lowered his ERA to 3.25 on the season and appears to be showing genuine improvements in his K and BB Rates along with a decreased HR Rate in comparison to his rookie campaign in 2006. While the improvements in Marshall are noticeable, I still don't believe he's much more of a spot starting option in Mixed formats and a decent back-end of the rotation guy in deeper leagues. This is a bit against the grain because his peripherals actually do support some of the improvements he's made this season, however I see a trend that reminds me more of 2006. Marshall struck out 22 batters and walked 5 in his first 20 innings and since then has only struck out 23 and walked 16 in his last 43 2/3 innings for a K Rate of .53 and a walk rate of .36. This is a bit more in line with last year's numbers and his current .77 Strand Rate is unsustainable given the low K rates. Marshall's the perfect sell high candidate in my mind and someone that will finish with an ERA closer to 4.25 than 3.25 this season.

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 24, 2007 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hill get's de-railed
too easily, and he needs to learn to take a couple hits in stride.  When everything is going well for Hill, he is lights out, but that is unrealistic in the bigs.  You are going to give up some hits, and he needs to learn how to start fresh with the next hitter.

To me, Marshall may not have the big bighting curve, but his fastball is probably a tad better than Hills.  He also strikes me as a kid who can go with the flow, and does not get rattled as easily as Hill.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 24, 2007 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball insider says:
"the perfect sell high candidate in my mind and someone that will finish with an ERA closer to 4.25 than 3.25 this season."

That statement could be about Both Hill and Marshall.

Hell they  are virtually the same pitcher.

But the one thing that the numbers and "experts" don't understand is how some kids handle pressure.

I have seen Marshall lose more one run ball games in the last two years than any other Cub Pitcher.

And in every game the Kid doesn't lose his head or try to do too much, he just keeps the game close.

It is that that kind of heart that stats can't show and that is why I think Marshall is the better of the two Young Lefties.

by Joe on Jul 24, 2007 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong here...
...but wouldn't "one-run losses" be something that you could could count? In fact, this seems to be something that can be objectively counted and tallied.

I might even go so far as to say that you're trying to show that statistics don't measure everything with... a statistic.

My head is starting to hurt.

FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Jul 24, 2007 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great
I would love to find a stat geek that could give me a stat to show how well starters keep their teams in games when they don't have their best stuff.

Stat Geeks I have thrown down the gauntlet will you answer the call?

by Joe on Jul 24, 2007 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i suppose
that statement could be said about Hill...

of course it would have no statistical evidence behind it

so it would be an opinion with little "hard data" to stand on

but yeh it "could be said about Hill"

Hill's peripherals suggest he's pitching closer to an actual ERA in the range of 3.40-3.60

Marshall's recent trend especially the declining K Rates suggest he's more likely to be somewhere in the 4.00-4.25 range

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 24, 2007 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

guys like Glavine
are the exception not the rule...

hell i'm sure for every 1 guy having success striking out less than .65 batters/inning i could give you hmmm... i dont know maybe 100 that dont

maybe even 1000...

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 25, 2007 7:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i agree
i also think marshall will be a bit more durable than hill because of the late start marshall had this year. it's a LONG season.

by anormal on Jul 24, 2007 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chad Bradford
Just wanted to see what anyone thought of the Orioles set-up man. He's a submarine pitcher with an 2.97 ERA, 23K, 9W. He also doesn't give up many home runs.
Baltimore has expressed interest in moving him. Not sure what it would take to get him or his contract numbers. I think he would fit into the bullpen nicely being a groundball pitcher.

by Tangled Up In Blue on Jul 24, 2007 2:39 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I've always liked Bradford.
He'd be a really nice addition.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In my family,
My father is a die hard White Sox fan, my brother is a die hard Cards fan, and I am a die hard Cubs fan. We place small wagers on games or series etc, we send each other the newest and funniest joke regarding the others team, and so on.

Being in west central IL, it is an interesting section of baseball fans. I am guessing around 45% Cubs, 45% Cards, and 10% White Sox fans.

My Cubs wired mind can't grasp how anyone could love a team other than the Cubs or that they could love their team more passionately than Cubs fans love their team. I never hear another ball park full of fans live and die with each pitch, with each hit, the way we do.

However, the diversity makes conversation more interesting, victories more sweet, and our loses more humbling. And poking fun at each other's teams is great fun. Afterall, how you can pass up making jokes about a guy with the last name of Pujols???? But fair means fair, if I can it dish, they can dish it.  

Uh, Lord, hallowed be Thy name. May our feet be swift; may our bats be mighty; may our balls... be plentiful. ~ Jimmy Dugan

by love the ivy on Jul 24, 2007 2:47 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

A bit off topic...
I was intending on going to the Peoria Chiefs game tonight, but now I can't. Is anyone else from the Peoria area attending? I would be curious to hear how Wood and Blanco played.
Uh, Lord, hallowed be Thy name. May our feet be swift; may our bats be mighty; may our balls... be plentiful. ~ Jimmy Dugan

by love the ivy on Jul 24, 2007 3:11 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Usuallly...
...people who go to such games will either post a diary of their own or chip in in the daily Minor League Recaps that JoshinLA puts together.
FREE CARMEN PIGNATIELLO!

by cwyers on Jul 24, 2007 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks!
Uh, Lord, hallowed be Thy name. May our feet be swift; may our bats be mighty; may our balls... be plentiful. ~ Jimmy Dugan

by love the ivy on Jul 24, 2007 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am the proud new owner
of a West Highland Terrier puppy named Wrigley!

by jshipp on Jul 24, 2007 3:14 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Cool...
We have a 14 year old Beagle that we couldn't find a name for weeks. We're playing in the yard one day and throwing her tennis balls. She got to every one, no matter where we threw it and never dropped one. So we named her "Ryno".
da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I wanted an English Bulldog
but unfortunately my girlfriend and I dont live in a big enough house for one yet, so she got a Westie and I got to pick the name.  I think when I yell at her when she's in trouble I'm going to say "Wrigley Grace Sandberg!  Get over here right now!"

by jshipp on Jul 24, 2007 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would be cool,
if you lived close enough to Sox fans so they could hear you.
da-da-daddio

by blackhawk24 on Jul 24, 2007 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have a boot
named Santo.
It is July, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Jul 24, 2007 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brace yourself
not only do they bark like hell, it is a very piercing bark, that rattles your ears.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jul 24, 2007 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bobby Kielty--DFA
Acc. to A's site...wonder if the Cubs have serious interest in him does well vs. lefties.

Can he play RF?? If not, forget it.

by writerinwrigley on Jul 24, 2007 4:49 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Wow!
Yes, he can play RF -- it's the position he has played the most.

Last year he hit .270/.329/.441 overall and .325/.358/.607 vs. LHP. For his career he is .296/.379/.509 vs. LHP.

Go, Hendry, go! Get this guy. He's perfect for a short-term fix and would likely cost nothing.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jul 24, 2007 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

he says boston interested
...boston seems int. in everybody tho...even tho have had just about the best record in baseball most of season.

Wonder if we could ever do a deal with Theo?? after the Nomar trade--we gave up a good player in Brendan Harris but Beltran never materialized--neither side too badly burned.

When's last time a major Cub-Card trade?? Sure been a while...Kessinger for....? A few players have jumped via free agency, but not too many...

by writerinwrigley on Jul 24, 2007 4:51 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Todd Ziele
It is July, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Jul 24, 2007 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i love...
how condescending Cards guy's "questions" are.  i'm surprised no one has commented on the backhanded tone.

i truly hate the cardinals. and yes, in a "yankees/red sox" kind of way.

"that wouldn't be a home run in a phone booth."

by jinxproof on Jul 25, 2007 8:35 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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