Time To Give Dempster the Hawkins treatment

by phedsy on Sep 12, 2007 5:53 AM CDT Comment 65 comments

I am not a booing type of person. However, the Cubs' front office seems to listen when the fans become upset. Case in point, when Latroy Hawkins was becoming the thorn in our sides they ousted him, and we have been better off since. Dempster isn't as bad as Hawkins, but he is not the person that is going to help us get to the mountain top. I am not just mad about Dempster's performance from last night. I seem to grab my stomach and some tums when he enters the game. I don't care if he is in a closing spot or we have a thirty run lead, I still believe he can screw it up. He is a big salary for the trash he disposes from the "Dumpster."

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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no?

he shouldn't have been in there to begin with..

Now that he is back, play Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Sep 12, 2007 6:26 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

He was very effective for an inning last night. The Astros had been held hitless for several innings. Lou should have brought in a lefty to face Scott with the game on the line. I think Dempster is good enough in the ninth inning, and Marmol is the guy you want to bring in when men are on base in the 7th and 8th.

The call of the Cub fan, c. 1893: "one long, ravaged, derisive yell...a cyclonic whoop!"

by zambranofan on Sep 12, 2007 7:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

C'mon

The bullpen was plain awesome last night. it was the offensive failure of 15LOB that killed us. Last pm you asked 3 guys to throw 2 consecutive innings each (essentially making them unavailable for tonight). Granted, they are major leaguers and should be able to do it, but there have been so many games this year that Marmol HAS infact saved it for us in the 6th or 7th innings. no doubt he is our closer for the future. Dempster's track record, despite giving us ulcers each time, has NOT been that bad this year or out of the expected normal for a 'good' closer.
Dempster didn't do the job last pm. however, they cannot be perfect. the 3 of them managed to shut Houston down for 5 + innings prior to that. If Dempster had held them that inning and the Cubs had scored to go ahead in the 12th-who are you going to bring in to close the game now?

by LuisSalazar on Sep 12, 2007 7:04 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

reply

What an incredibly stupid thread.

by kanderber on Sep 12, 2007 7:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The loss is soeley on

our hitters. Demp sis his job for an inning and our hitters are simply HORRIBLE. Great to see we have the bunting down now fellas. Apparently we can't walk AND chew gum.

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 8:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

LMAO

by LuisSalazar on Sep 12, 2007 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't blame Dempster.

He didn't left 15 men on base and didn't fail to score in every inning after the 4th despite having several chances. He also pitched well for one inning, which is the norm for a closer.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 12, 2007 8:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Anyone booing Dempster after Tuesday

Should go root for the White Sox.

Nothing like perusing a message board to find out that people really don't know much about baseball.

by lancaster99 on Sep 12, 2007 8:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Dempster has been...

decent this year, except for a couple of complete meltdowns.

You ARE freaking out MAN!

by crw89 on Sep 12, 2007 8:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

love the sig

and dempsters not the problem

Matt Murton career in September: .321/.401/.576, 10 jacks (165 ab). Make sure Matt the Bat gets in the lineup this month Lou!

by kylejo on Sep 12, 2007 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks kylejo...

It's from Super Troopers.

You ARE freaking out MAN!

by crw89 on Sep 13, 2007 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Define decent

I don't think he is horrible, but I don't think he is particularly good either. I also think Lou should leave things as they are for the rest of the season, Dempster closing and Marmol in the 6th or 7th. But, Dempster's stats aren't that great. I believe his era is around 4.00 now. Yes he has 25 saves and has only blown 3, but he also has 6 losses. That is nine games where has has given it up for us. I don't consider that impressive at all; but I would hate to move Marmol out of a role that he has been so successful in. Bottom line is, 15 men left on base is what beat us last night. We should have won that game 9-4 in nine innings.

by qccub on Sep 12, 2007 9:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Uh... no

Yes he has 25 saves and has only blown 3, but he also has 6 losses. That is nine games where has has given it up for us.

You do know that you can get a loss and a blown save in the same game, right?

2 of Dempster's 3 blown saves have also been losses for him. So that is 7 games, not nine games.

Some context - Lilly, Marshall, Hill, Marquis, and Zambrano all have 7 or more losses.

Bob Howry has 7 losses, along with one blown save that led to a loss and one blown save that the Cubs still won.

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Sep 12, 2007 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I stand corrected

it's 7 not 9. Still not impressive in my estimation. Again, he isn't horrible but he isn't what I would call good either. Howry has had some bad meltdowns too. I don't believe I ever said he hadn't. The comparison to the losses that starting pitchers on the staff have is ridiculous, an apples to oranges comparison.

by qccub on Sep 12, 2007 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

apples to oranges?

The comparison to the losses that starting pitchers on the staff have is ridiculous, an apples to oranges comparison.

Not really... and this is why. You want to say that Dempster has "given up" 9 (or 7) losses. Using that logic, we should also say that those starters have "given up" all of those losses, right?

To say a pitcher is responsible for a loss because he gave up one run is pretty silly.

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Sep 12, 2007 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"L"

Never mind the relative merits of even talking about the "L" stat, but:

May 17, Loss #2, he left with the lead, and Eyre "lost" the game.

May 8, Blown Save #1, he left in a tie game, and many pitchers later Cotts "lost" the game.

So that takes your 7 "losses" to 5. 5 "losses" in 57 games he pitched in this year. And remember he always comes in at the end, so every time he has a bad inning he can "lose" it for us.

Wow, how can we ever live with that?

by californiachicagoan on Sep 12, 2007 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're right

he's been lights out. My mistake. Read my original post. I think he should still be the closer, but I don't consider him to be anything more than an average at the job. I also don't blame him for the loss last night, I blame that on leaving 15 men on base.

by qccub on Sep 12, 2007 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He does nothing easily

this is my complaint about our closer.

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Scrappy

Isnt this why people love batters like Theriot? He never does things easily? He doesnt just go out and hit the first pitch out of the yard. He works and battles to get his results? So why isn't Dempster's scrappiness admirable like Theriot's?

by californiachicagoan on Sep 12, 2007 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ugh...

And who would you rather have? Marmol? A guy who has never been anywhere close to a closer role? As Hawkins how that worked out...

Howry? Who has more blown saves than Dempster in many less opportunities?

Has Dempster blown some games? Sure... but he has still been quite good for the most part. He isn't an elite closer, but he is in the second tier of closers who get the job done most of the time.

He also doesn't pitch more than inning very often, which needs to be factored into what happened last night.

Dempster is not the problem with this team. The problem with last night's game was an inability to score a run in 8 straight innings, even when they had plenty of chances. And it didn't help that they got some bad luck (Lee's catch, Jones' hitting a ball hard right at the CF, etc...)

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Sep 12, 2007 9:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree.

Dempster is terrible.

by lemon20pie on Sep 12, 2007 11:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Dempster is not the problem!

The guy came in last night in a non-save oppurtunity and pitched past what he normally pitches, one inning. Yes, this team is lacking something right now, but it's not because of Dempster.

The fact of the matter is, the Cubs should have scored more runs which should have lead to A) Dempster was in there for a SAVE i.e. 1 inning or B) It was a non-save situation because the Cubs were blowing out the Astros.

Christ, how many times do we need to read Diaries from non-contributers who only come out of the woodwork when Dempster is charged with a loss or a blown save. Not that often, cause he doesn't blow that many saves, but we get 5 diaries on the subject every time.

Leave him alone, he is not the current problem with this team!!!!

"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Sep 12, 2007 11:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree with the post above

It is absolutely shocking to me, the number of people on this site who apparently know absolutely nothing about baseball. It gets proven every five minutes.

And the topic of this diary is Exhibit A.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 12, 2007 11:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

While I agree that Demp isn't to blame

isn;t your statement about people not knowing a thing about baseball a bit ignorant?

Aside from a person saying that "a team scores runs by scoring a touchdown or kicking an extra point" (or similar statements), knowledge about baseball is fairly based on our opinions.

While this poster thinks that Demp is to blame, (and again, I disagree), that is their opinion. If someone thinks that 3 blown saves is horrid, that is their opinion. Again, I disagree.

I happen to feel that nothing Demp does comes easy (less a few outings) and if you disagree, this doesn't mean I know nothing about baseball.

I think, too many people here spout off about others being baseball stupid here. It feels a bit self righteous.

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know every detail about baseball

And I realize that generalization appears a bit self-righteous. That was not the intent. But I do know that any comparisons between Dempster and Hawkins are beyond ridiculous. All you have to do is look at their records.

And I do know a lot of the things some people here brand as "uniquely Cub" happen to other teams, even some good ones, routinely.

If someone things three blown saves are horrid, they must think virtually every closer in baseball is horrid, too. Make sense to you?

Maybe you think nothing Dempster does comes easily. You could say the same for Mitch Williams. Or Tom Gordon. Or Rod Beck. But they were, for the most part, effective.

The last two times I've seen the Diamondbacks closer, he's been in bases-loaded jams of his own making. Yet if you listened to some of the geniuses around here, he's a much better closer than Dempster. Make sense to you?

Elite closers are very few. That's not an opinion.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 12, 2007 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course I agree with all those sentiments

re: Hawkins vs. Demp, three blown saves is not bad, and that elite closer are hard to come by.

Part of the problem is that he was so great 2 seasons ago and we expect a lot.

I stand by my assertation that he does most things the hard way and it is taking a toll on my blood pressure however, I never said that most others DO make things easy.

This diary is wrong IMO but I can't say that this poster has no clue about baseball, just doesn't agree with me.

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He doesn't agree with you

Which, in an of itself, is not worthy of branding him as ignorant about baseball. I agree with you about that.

But advocating he be treated the same way Hawkins was is a different story. Hawkins richly deserved everything he got.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 12, 2007 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well we do agree

Demp aint Hawkins but even he didn;t deserve SOME of the shit that came his way like the racist threats and such. I would have to argue that no one deserves that.

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously

The first thing I thought when I read the title of this diary was, "No way Dempster gets the Hawkins treatment. He's white."

by cubsbak on Sep 12, 2007 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right?

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wasn't even thinking about the racial aspect

I was just concerned with the booing.

No, he absolutely did not deserve the racial epithets. Nobody does.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 12, 2007 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know you didn't

I assume no one here would advocate that. I was just making a point about how he was treated...same with JJ...makes us look real bad here in Chicago.

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I do think Cubs fans

are equal-opportunity booers. Todd Hundley, anyone?

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 12, 2007 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Easy"

I happen to feel that nothing Demp does comes easy (less a few outings) and if you disagree, this doesn't mean I know nothing about baseball.

Dempster has a WHIP of 1.24.

That is not exactly a lot of trouble.

And 23 of Dempsters 57 outings have been perfect outings, with no runners reaching base.

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Sep 12, 2007 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So let me ask you this...

when he takes the bump, do you feel like the game is in the bag?

I do not use stats and I know this bothers some but I don't care what the numbers you present say, when he comes on, I ALWAYS think oh god, please let him not walk anyone, or give up home runs.
Great example of a recent stresful outing. The strohs at Wrigley, top o nonth, up two runs (should feel comfortable right?), Carlos Lee HR to bring it to one run defecit.

I think it was another game when he walked in the 1st run and got the out that was needed.

Let us not forget too, that often Demp's quality outings are dependedent on stellar defense. I can rememebr many a time that a rocket line drive is stopped or caught by a diving Ramirez/Lee/Theriot/DeRosa. The guy throws meatballs quite often and that is brutal. This is why, despite the fact that Marmol is young, I think he is closer material. His stuff is filthy and often untouchable. Yes, he has bad outings too but less often than Demp.

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I never feel that way about any closer

this side of Billy Wagner (who, I think, blew a save last week) and Trevor Hoffman (who has had blow-ups galore this season).

I apologize if Dempster doesn't close to your specifications. But much more often than not, he gets the job done.

That said, Marmol has the stuff to be a future closer. The key word being "future." Then again, I thought Hawkins had closer stuff, too.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 12, 2007 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

meatballs?

when he takes the bump, do you feel like the game is in the bag?

I don't ever feel that the "game is in the bag." But I confident when Dempster comes in.

Let us not forget too, that often Demp's quality outings are dependedent on stellar defense.

Not any more than any other pitcher with decent strike out numbers like Dempster.

The guy throws meatballs quite often and that is brutal.

For a guy who throws a lot of "meatballs," he sure doesn't give up a lot of extra base hits.

He has only given up 3 homeruns all year. His SLUG allowed is only .308. The only person on the team that has a lower SLUG allowed (in more than 20 ip) is Carlos Marmol.

A .308 SLUG allowed is excellent, and it would imply that he doesn't throw "meatballs." That places him 22nd in the NL (among pitchers with 20+ innings) in terms of SLUG allowed.

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Sep 12, 2007 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

BTW...

He also has the second best OPS allowed on the Cubs (behind Marmol).

Here are the NL closers that have a better OPS allowed than Dempster:

Saito
Izzy
Cordero
Hoffman
Wagner

Here are the NL closers that have a better SLUG allowed than Dempster:

Izzy
Saito

So I really am not sure what you mean about Dempster throwing meatballs.

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Sep 12, 2007 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll say it again

I do not think Demp does things easily and YES there are closers whom you can feel confident that they will do their job. Hey case and point, though undeserved and inaccurate, there are people who feel that he should be Hawkinsed. Now I guess these people don;t know anything about baseball but truth be told, the guy gives up hits when he cannot afford to. Meat balls FYI, are pitches (such as the GW last night) that are over the heart of the plate and easy to hit. You made my point in all your number listing...Marmol has nasty unhittable stuff and I feel much more confident in him on the mound that Demp.,

I suppose you will quote me some new numbers that show me that I should not feel more confident with Marmol out there?

And what exactly makes a "future" closer? Is it that we need to use up all their good stuff and then let them fail in the closer role?

Why are we so against giving him a chance in the 9th?

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Feelings

You can "feel" confident or not until you are blue in the face. I'd rather have a closer that blows only 3 saves, than one that makes a particular fan (thats you) "feel" confident. I "feel" fine.

You can find people who think Mother Theresa should be "Hawkinized". There are people who think Dempster should NOT be "Hawkinized", so how about we do that instead?

"Now I guess these people don;t know anything about baseball but truth be told, the guy gives up hits when he cannot afford to. "

Actually, it is the reverse. The truth is the guy gives up hits when he CAN afford to. He has only blown three saves. He has only caused us to lose 5 games in 57 appearances. It is precisely those hits that make you "feel" unconfident in him. You see hits given up and men on and you think he will blow the game. Only he doesn't, and you attribute it to luck or defense or whatever.

Maybe it is luck or voodoo or his off season ninja training program. But it is working. A scary win is as much a win as a comfortable one.

by californiachicagoan on Sep 12, 2007 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Get a grip.

I have been the one person who has posted the most that he should NOT be Hawkinized. I have suimply said he seems to do nothing the easy way. Be it walks, meatballs, or simply giving up multiple hits.

Ya know whatI don;t have time to even post, I have to go watch Demp blow another god damned game. Excuse me. He's a real quality closer. Oh and for the record, I still don;t want to Hawkinize him. But really, he is the best!

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

marmol

Meat balls FYI, are pitches (such as the GW last night) that are over the heart of the plate and easy to hit.

Really? Is that what a meatball is? I wasn't sure.

Come on... if a pitcher really throws a lot of "meatballs," that pitcher is going to get hit hard. Dempster doesn't get hit hard. Dempster's biggest problem is that walks too many batters. Getting hit hard is definitely NOT one of his problems.

I suppose you will quote me some new numbers that show me that I should not feel more confident with Marmol out there?

Don't be silly. Marmol has been the Cubs' best pitcher this year in almost every statistical category.

Why are we so against giving him a chance in the 9th?

Who is "we?"

I am not against Marmol in the 9th. I just think that Dempster is a lot better than a lot of people think.

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Sep 12, 2007 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously

he gets hit man...you watching?

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I watch...

I watch most games, but that is not the point. The facts contradict your opinions.

While Dempster gets hit (at times), getting hit hard is not one of his big problems.

3 home runs in 58 appearaces. His batting average against is just .213. And I have already shown you that opposing hitters have a VERY low SLUG against him.

You may FEEL that he gets hit hard and throws a lot of meatballs, because as a fan you hate to see it happen, but that does not mean that it actually happens frequently.

visit the mindful mission.

by big_lowitzki on Sep 13, 2007 7:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yesterday was hectic

and therefore I failed to state my point that when I say hit hard, I do not mean he gives up a ton of HR's. I mean the guy gives up a lot of hits, and combined with his tendency to alk batters, makes me nervous whenever he comes on.

Hit hard does not HAVE to mean HR's, it can also mean that batters put good wood on many of his pitches and this feels like what happens a lot with Demp.

Sorry for the confusion but again, after last night, I mainatin my assertation. I will add however that he also catches some bad breaks at times, like the base hit off the bag last night, as well as Pie's fabulous defense! Please remember again, I am against treating Demp like Hawkins (heck I was against treating Hawkins like Hawkins) but he makes me nervous...and yes part of it is my desire for them to win.

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 13, 2007 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ignorant Arrogance?

Actually it wasn't ignorant really, it was arrogant. Your calling him ignorant when he was arrogant could be construed as ignorant.

But only someone more arrogant than I.

by californiachicagoan on Sep 12, 2007 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whatever you makes you fell good.

Ignorant, arrogant. Either way, it was self righteous...

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The game should

have been won before Dempster ever came in. This is just ridiculous.

Shawn Johnson, Des Moines, IA, worlds greatest gymnast. 2007 All Around World Champ. GO SHAWN!!!!

by sue369 on Sep 12, 2007 12:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Ridiculous indeed!

If this poster was correct in his assertions that the Cubs brass gets rid of players being boo'ed, then when are we putting Big Z on waivers? Yeah, great insight in this diary...

"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Sep 12, 2007 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

NOBODY should be given "the Hawkins Treatment

It was a low moment for Cub fans. If you think ripping apart a player is a way to run or help a team than find another team to
"root" for. My personal opinion is that Hawkins was destroyed as an elite set up guy by Dusty who tried to make him something he was not.

I still think LeTroy's comment on Cub fans was the spot
on and sadly more accurate than some of the others who have
showered us with compliments
When returning to his first game at Wrigley after being traded
he explained that he was misunderstood. He loved Chicago, He loved Dusty, and he loved playing for the Cubs. When asked by a reporter about Cub FANS , he said "There is only so much love
to go around"

So if you like destroying players and teams go right ahead and boo them the minute they enter a game without even bothering to see what they do.

"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Sep 12, 2007 1:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The thing about Hawkins

was not only his poor play -- and I'll agree Dusty had a lot to do with that -- but also his attitude. The "I can do your job, you can't do my job" BS. He turned off the fans almost right away.

I was ecstatic when the Cubs signed Hawkins. I loved him with the Twins. But he hasn't been the same pitcher since he left Minnesota.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 12, 2007 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Which leads me to this

One thing Hendry deserves credit for is going out and getting some of the best relief pitchers available on the free agent market each year.

He signed Hawkins. He signed Remlinger. He signed Mercker. He signed Howry. He signed Eyre.

Some of those guys have worked out. Some haven't. But you can't say Hendry hasn't tried.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 12, 2007 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jessica

well said and I totally agree with you. I'll bet the original poster rarely even goes to games and wants others to follow a dumb idea.

by cubswin on Sep 12, 2007 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Carlos Lee

How is this Dempster's fault? They lost because Carlos Lee of all people made a "webgem" level defensive play. Carlos Lee!! That's like saying that Darryl Ward would score from 2nd on a passed ball. It just doesn't normally happen.

by Invalid User on Sep 12, 2007 3:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Lee's A 5 Defensively

In the current Strat-O-Matic season, Carlos Lee is a 5 in left field, which means he pretty much botches anything that's not a routine flyball. Once in a while, when a flyball is hit to left, the game will test the skill of the fielder and Carlos will make an unbelievable play. 9 times out of 10 the ball will get past Carlos and end up rolling to the wall; last night was one of those extremely rare highlight-film plays.

Wrigley Field...AKA The Pit of Despair

by TMOX on Sep 12, 2007 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I still say

as I did in the offseason...I would rather have had CLee than Soriano. Of course both would have been nice but we all know this is impossible. I liked CLee for the money. I like Soriano but hey, we got him and he has produced...somewhat.

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 12, 2007 3:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Carlos Lee?

Carlos Lee is making 1.5mil more a year according to the ESPN player pages. Even though he strikes out less and walks more, he has similar batting average and OPS numbers (and HRs) as Soriano. Meanwhile he also is much slower (8 sb/5cs compared to Soriano's 18/5). And regardless of his highlight catch the other night is a poorer fielder.

Up to now, I'd rather have Sori.

by californiachicagoan on Sep 12, 2007 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Even though I criticize Soriano a lot

(or rather, criticize a lot how he is being used) I strongly believe (and the numbers quoted above support me) that Soriano was a much better acquisition than Carlos Lee.

Soriano has had a low production year, below his average, due to injuries. He'll improve. Soon.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 12, 2007 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

time to give phedsy

the Hawkins treatment

by Thelonious on Sep 12, 2007 4:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Confidence

It seems to me that Lou Piniella has very little confidence in everyone in the bullpen not named Marmol, Howry or Dempster.

After the game Lou opined that Marquis didn't have very good stuff. If that statement is true, and not just hindsight, why leave Marquis in to bat in the 6th with a 2-run lead? You had an 11 man bullpen at your disposal.

That tells me that Lou has no interest in using anyone but Marmol, Howry and Dempster in a game where the Cubs have the lead or are tied late. So the game is going to be theirs to win or lose down the stretch. They aren't going to be perfect. If the offense was pulling its weight maybe they wouldnt have to be.

Putting the blame on Dempster might be easy, but its way off base.

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -- Mark Twain

by circuitclout on Sep 12, 2007 5:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

my take on all this...

what some need to understand is that all relievers are relievers because they arent good enough to be a starter. that being said relievers are prone to failure. there are various reasons for this, for example some cant throw a 3rd pitch or some dont have enough stamina etc. all relievers and yes i do mean all relievers are gonna be hot and cold. look around dempster isnt any different from every closer in baseball. valarde,rivera,issy,nathan etc etc etc have blown multiple saves this year. overall dempster has done a fine job in his role. for those of you who think i'm defending failure i'm not. if your saying marmol is the answer he might be but lets not be so quick to crown him king yet. take a look back at all his games and you will see he has came into several games and blown leads and or holds. if you wanna post do yourself and everyone a favor and think it through before you write it.

Here comes the nasty leftie to shut it down in the 9th......Clay Rapada!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Sep 12, 2007 6:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't say Relievers aren't good enough

to be a starter.

Just because you don't have the ability to throw 5+ innings doesn't make you bad. Papelbon was going to be starter but the Red Sox found him to be to valuable at the back of there pen.

By your assumption, that means that Jeff Weaver is a better pitcher than Francisco Rodriguez or Russ Ortiz is better than JJ Putz, correct?

"Prince Fielder Dies Of Inside-The-Park Homerun" - The Onion

by DTJchris on Sep 12, 2007 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs