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It's Not Getting Any Ethier

As if you didn't dislike Dodgers OF Andre Ethier enough already, after his game-winning three-run HR off Ryan Dempster that gave the Dodgers the series with a 7-4 win over the Cubs, I'm going to tell you a little story about him about something that occurred this morning at the ballpark.

You all have seen me write about Jenna, my daughter Rachel's friend who was Bat Mitzvah two weeks ago. Today, Jenna's mom came to the ballpark on her day off to get some Dodger autographs that Jenna had wanted. She got Mike Lieberthal to sign, a couple of others, and then went to Russell Martin, who wasn't signing very much, and Ethier, who she said at first she didn't even recognize.

Ethier told her: "I'm only going to sign as much as Martin does." Martin had signed, at that time, only one piece, so Ethier signed only one piece. Then Martin signed a few more, so Ethier did, too -- but only for the men waiting, not for Jenna's mom, who was the only woman around. She asked him, "Aren't you going to sign for me?"

His response will stun you. He said, "I already have five girlfriends, I don't want another one." She responded, "I don't want to be your girlfriend, I just want your autograph." But Ethier continued: "I'm just a Southwestern kind of guy, I like to rope my women in." (He's a native of Phoenix, Arizona.)

Stunned, Jenna's mom handed Ethier's card to one of the men in line and Ethier signed it (a pretty weak-looking signature, too, I might add).

Now, maybe Ethier thinks he was being funny, but it strikes me as being extremely rude. Oh, and in case any of the five girlfriends is reading this: you're not the only one!!!

I had to get that out of my system because Ethier's home run -- which just barely made the first row of seats and was definitely wind-aided -- has dealt a serious blow to the Cubs' playoff hopes. Tied now with Milwaukee, and only a game ahead of St. Louis after their apparent blowout win over the Pirates today (they're leading 16-4 at this writing, and it just went into a rain delay in the 9th inning), with 24 games left, the Cubs aren't done, not by a long shot.

But they had better start winning. Now. They are going on the road, starting tomorrow, and so are the Brewers and Cardinals. Road records:

Cubs 33-32 Cardinals 30-37 Brewers 26-42
If those performances hold true over the next ten days or so, the Cubs ought to come home on September 17 in first place.

But they have to have better hitting. On a day when the wind was howling out to left field, only Alfonso Soriano could hit the ball out of the ballpark; he accounted for all four RBI and two of the six hits with his two HR, the second of which gave the Cubs a 4-2 lead going into the 8th inning, a lead they should have been able to hold on to. Bob Howry gave a run of it back on Matt Kemp's no-doubt-about-it HR in the 8th.

Then you all know what Dempster did. I haven't had a chance to look through the game thread comments and I can only imagine what you all said about Dempster. Here's the bottom line: it's his third blown save of the year. It's a spectacular one. These things do happen, even to the best closers (example: Takashi Saito, who dispatched the Cubs 1-2-3 in the 9th and who has 37 saves with a 1.31 ERA, also has three blown saves this year). It's just that this is the worst possible time for this to happen (bad enough, that those left after the blowup in the LF bleachers started chanting, "Marmol! Marmol! Marmol!").

Does this mean "Dump Dempster?" No, it doesn't. He could easily go back to saving games -- his last blown save was June 10 in Atlanta. What has to happen is that the Cubs need to start putting opponents away, and not giving games away -- Derrek Lee absolutely, positively has to make the play at first base on James Loney's ground ball just before Ethier's HR. (He was originally charged with an error -- justified, I thought; it shouldn't have been changed to a hit.) Had that play been made, with first base open and one out, Ethier might have been walked and Dempster would have faced Tony Abreu with runners on first and second and one out. The resulting ground ball could well have been a game-ending double play. Even at 6-4, the Cubs might have felt they had a shot at getting back into the game in the 9th, but Dempster's bad outing turned horrid when he wild-pitched in the seventh run.

All of this ruined a fine, fine outing by Jason Marquis, who retired the first fourteen hitters he faced before Loney's HR in the fifth inning. He threw two more effective innings before departing for pinch-hitter Cliff Floyd, who walked. Sam Fuld ran for Floyd and scored his first major league run on Soriano's HR. Marquis deserved better.

Oh, and Daryle Ward got picked off again, in the first inning (apparently, replays showed he was safe). I was talking to Dave about this and he said sometimes big, slow guys like Ward try to get a little more of an edge leading off a base than they really should, because they know they're not fast, and apparently they feel they need this to perhaps score from first on a double. That said, big, slow guys like Ward have to pay extra attention to pitchers, particularly veteran pitchers like Derek Lowe, because otherwise they're going to get picked off again and again. The Cubs could have, since there were two walks issued by Lowe in the first inning, had a big inning and maybe put the game away early.

And as if that weren't bad enough, I left the ballpark without my umbrella (it didn't even rain today -- might as well have, given the result of the game). I tried calling Jeff, Howard and Jon to find out if any of them had taken it. Only Howard would answer his phone. He said he didn't have it. Which was true -- Jeff did. They threatened to put it on eBay and leave the auction only open to BCB members.

Now seriously. How much would any of you have bid on a used, six-year-old blue and white golf umbrella?

Maybe I shouldn't ask those questions. They met me at my car and the umbrella is now resting comfortably in the back. We all needed the comic relief after today's disaster. It's not over -- far from it -- but I can't imagine tonight's Cub flight to Pittsburgh is going to be a very happy one.

Till tomorrow. Keep faith and hope, because this race, I believe, may go down to the very last day, or even beyond.

Note: Aramis Ramirez' foul ball, which missed being a HR by about twenty feet (and which would have given the Cubs a 6-2 lead and maybe kept Dempster out of the game), broke a window on this bus parked on Waveland:

Click here for my scorecard from today's game (don't forget that you may have to click on the image in Firefox, or on the lower-right corner in IE, to expand the image to full size)

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I initially thought...
that Loney's hit in the ninth was an error by Lee, but Len and Bob were emphatic saying the opposite. They might have influenced the scorer. It wasn't a ball hit directly at Lee, true, but I think that if he had let it go, the second baseman had it covered for an easy out. That's why I thought it was an error.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 5:44 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The play should have been made, and...
... Lee is an outstanding defensive player. Thus, a play like this not made should be an error.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Sep 6, 2007 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The fact
that Lee's an outstanding defensive player isn't relevant to whether the scorer determines it's an error.  The scorer is supposed to consider what an "average fielder" making an "ordinary effort" would do.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Come on.....
I think that a left handed 1st baseman would have had it.   Lee had to take a few steps to his right and cross his body to get it.  You call that an error?  It was a difficult play.  If he would have got it, everyone would have said it was an outstanding play.  But since he didn't you think it should be an error? You think that was an ordinary play?  No way!

by IOWACUBSFAN on Sep 7, 2007 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually
I never even saw the play (I was at work when it happened).  I was just clarifying the standard the scorer is supposed to use when determining if the play was an error.  Frankly, I have no opinion whatsoever on the actual play since I didn't see it.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It didn't appear
...that Lee was guarding the line for that lead-off hit in the 9th. As much as I hate the 'pulled-in infield,' (which is baseball strategy that should be retired) I think guarding the line late in the game can prevent such extra-base hits, and is very useful.

And, as regarding the pick-off...I was sitting in the dugout box, second row with a perfect view of the play. Ward's foot was back on the bag before the tag.

Sorry, I don't remember the umpire in question -- but he was wearing sunglasses during the play. (The sky was overcast in the first, the lights had been turned on.)

However -- he took the sunglasses off between innings. I'll let you, dear reader -- connect the dots.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Sep 6, 2007 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of pulled-in infields...
... the Cubs got two run-scoring singles through one on Wednesday night.

Yeah, that strategy works all the time.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Sep 7, 2007 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not an error...
...to me.  

Lee is a great defender but that was not an error on Lee's part, IMHO.

by DrCrawdad on Sep 6, 2007 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's wrong with site clock, Al?
My post appears to be four minutes earlier than your recap. I'm no psychic.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 5:46 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

And...
... on my computer, it appears to be TWO minutes earlier than my recap.

I'm not sure how these times are accounted for. I'll see if I can ask the web gurus to fix this.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Sep 6, 2007 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're right
about this being tight till the end. Everyone might as well prepare themselves for that now. The last series with the Reds will likely have to be treated the same as a playoff series would.
Tinker to Evers to Chance.

by Matt Allison on Sep 6, 2007 5:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You LEFT the UMBRELLA ?
Wow you must REALLY have been shaken up. Since most of  you have not sat around Al at a game let me explain that he has the same attitude towards water falling on him as the Wicked Witch
of the West in the WIZARD OF OZ. The umbrella in question is HUGE. I think it covers his whole back row. Anyway sorry you were so shaken as to have left it but glad Jeff got it back. Might have been fun if it put it on eBay though. We coud have given the profits to D Lee's charity.
"It's the Cubbies. There's always a vibe. It's the greatest vibe in baseball." Greg Maddux on Cub fan's optimism even after the 06 debacle.

by jessica on Sep 6, 2007 5:56 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

When I got home....
.... the guys in the garage just looked at me in disbelief. I choked back the tears and blurted out that it was Dempster's fault. I think that settled some bet.  

Today I was in the upper deck with my dad and didn't see the ball hit the bus, but did see the bus after the game.

At least I got to spend some quality time with my dad today and we got to celebrate our upcoming birthdays -- just the two of us.

I can't even talk about today's game. When I think about it I want to cry.

"I'm a Cubs fan. I'm very, very patient." -- from a Shoe cartoon.

by No Southern Belle on Sep 6, 2007 5:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm following Lou on this

 While I hate losing the game. And those Blanekety blank blanking Cardinals are now one back, I'm not THAT upset about this one. It sucks.... no doubt.... but the pitching has still been solid. And if Lou feels there's another winning streak in this team then I do to. and a 12 out of 13 or 15 out of seventeen against Pittsburgh,Cincinatti, and the Cardinals is entirely possible.

So I will let the doomsayers and the Dempster bashers have their day. ( I sure hope someone calls him Dumpster.....So funny and original when they do that. Mature too). They seem to enjoy days like these. I'll look forward to playing the Pirates....

"I can't be held responsible for what I personally tell my goons to do...."- C. Montgomery Burns

by yahoodi on Sep 6, 2007 6:02 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

People like to announce their iqs
Calling him Dumpster announces a persons IQ as being quite low.

People said he'd suck before he started closing and don't want to admit they were wrong.

I love how this Marmol love is going on.  Heck I like the kid a lot.  But you don't throw a guy who's never closed into the job in September unless you have to.

Remember LaTroy Hawkins was a lights out guy in the 7th and 8th too.

We all know how that turned out.

I'm not saying Marmol is a closer.  In fact if I were a betting person I'd bet he will be our closer next year with Dempster either wearing another uniform or starting.

I would like to see the Cubs keep Ryan as a closer if they keep him although if they move him to the rotation he could always switch back if Marmol fails.

This is going to be the fall and winter of our content in Chicago.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shouldn't forget
that the Cards and Brewers still have a series against each other. It will be interesting to see who we have to root for in that set of games. It might change depending on the day.
Tinker to Evers to Chance.

by Matt Allison on Sep 6, 2007 6:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Could be mixed
Whoever is closer to us obviously we want to lose but on the other hand we have a chance to beat the Cardinals face to face and not the Brewers.
This is going to be the fall and winter of our content in Chicago.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Howry
This might not have been lost in the game thread, but I believe that we're underestimating the effect of his giving back the insurance run. Now who knows what happens if that ball doesn't leave the yard, but if the Cubs are up by 2 in the ninth, there is no way Lee is playing in. The ball that he was unable to make the play on is at the very least an out at second or even a double play. Again, things may have turned out totally different, but this was a team loss. The Cubs continue to leave runs on the bases or erase them with stupid baserunning and DPs.

DmL

by dmlichte on Sep 6, 2007 6:12 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think if Ethier was joking he would have
signed for her. What an arrogant ass. I hope he gets herpes. Okay, no I don't, maybe just crabs.
There are 3 things in my life which I really love: God, family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.

by cubsfan4life on Sep 6, 2007 6:14 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Disapointing loss
Very much so. But just maybe a road trip will bring this team back to playing decent ball. I still and always will maintain this is our division. Go get 'em Cubs.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Sep 6, 2007 6:14 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the bus picture
I think Ramirez should autograph it.  It just needs the Cubs logo above it with an Aramis Ramirez autograph and that would be the coolest seat on that bus.

by adam316 on Sep 6, 2007 6:15 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Ethier is a playah... (in more ways than one)
Al, I witnessed some of Ethier's autograph antics on Monday, and heard the same "I'll sign when Martin signs" stuff.  Ok, fine, whatever.  Pretty lame if you ask me - if you don't want to sign, just say no and walk on in.  

Then during batting practice today (yes, I went inside today - value price tickets have that effect on me), he was jawing pretty good with fans in right field.  Seemed to be mostly in good fun, though he was pretty cocky.  Fans were telling him he sucked (wow - that's original), and he would tease them by fake-throwing balls into the seats.  He did throw one up, but made sure it was way up and out onto Sheffield - I'm sure just to antagonize the fans that were riding him.

So I had to laugh to myself as I'm listening to the radio in the 9th inning when Ethier comes up with runners on 1st and 2nd, no outs.  Both Pat & Ron were expecting Ethier to bunt to move the runners over.

Ha!!!  No way does this brash, cocky, smartass of a player lay down a bunt - it wouldn't be manly enough for him.

Sure enough - no bunt.  Just a back-breaker of a home run.  Ouch!

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Sep 6, 2007 6:24 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Bullpen alternatives/options
It appears that Pinella is locked in to his setup/closers when the Cubs lead after the sixth--Marmol, Howry, then Dempster for the ninth.

Today, since our starter completed the seventh, we had Howry-Dempster...I'm wondering if we might consider Marmol to close some, to give Dempster a break now and then or if he doesn't get the job done.

Looking forward, this leaves Wood w/o a meaningful role...heading into '08, I can't see this continuing, meaning Dempster could be a good trade candidate and bringing a nice return..>make Marmol/Wood the closer.

They have been hurt by lack of a reliable lefty..Either is a lefthanded hitter you could second guess Pinella on that if Eyre/Ohman were guys you could go to the bank on.

The Cubs are good enough to win as constituted, good enough to win the Central anyway.

by writerinwrigley on Sep 6, 2007 6:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Marmol should be used...
to get the toughest and most important outs in any ballgame.  If that means coming in with 2 on in the 6th/7th and getting us out of a jam in a close game, then so be it.  In fact, that's generally the best time to use him, because maintaining the lead in pressure middle innings is a typical problem for us.  But occasionally, if it means bringing him in to close the door in the 9th, so be it.

I'm tired of the defined "roles" in the bullpen.  Each game is different, and requires different personnel.  If Marmol was available there, I'd have gone with him to get the win.

by SouthernCub on Sep 6, 2007 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely agree
I remember in the 80's when Lee Smith would refuse to go into games unless it was a save situation.  That used to drive me nuts.  The best reliever should be used to get the toughest outs.  Marmol is so clearly the best relieve on the Cubs it's not even funny.  To lose a game like this with him sitting on the bench unused is inexcusable.  If Marmol is available and the Cubs have a 1-run 9th inning lead he should be used.  If Dempster doesn't like it too damn bad.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seconding that Agreement
I am also sick of defined bullpen roles.  I think most would agree that Dempster is probably the third best reliever on this team, behind both Howry and Marmol. While he has been solid in his 2+ years as closer, he's hardly a dominant pitcher with great stuff. While he's certainly serviceable and an asset to this team, I would much rather have seen Marmol come on in the 9th today. I think this notion that you have a closer who always needs to be used in save situations is outdated. Use your best relievers in the most important spots. We needed Marmol in the 9th today, not Dempster.  

by ms9av on Sep 6, 2007 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, but that's not the way...
the game is played nowadays. Baseball is a mental game. Those relievers ned to know their role to perform well. The closer closes. Period. The problem is that no closer has a rubber arm. Therefore, WTF was Lou doing using Dempster Wednesday night in a non save situation and bringing him back 16 hours later or so to close?

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually
Dempster has historically been more effective when used more often.  He supposedly likes pitching in back to back games.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeabut...
The game also is not played with the pitcher batting 8th, and the Cards do that.  Who says you need to follow 'how the game is played nowadays'.  I have been a huge fan of 6 starting pitchers, who makes the rule of only 5???

But i totally agree with you about Lou using Dempster in a non save situation.  He has to stop doing that, even if he needs work, it never seems to fail that he goes in, in a non save situation and the following day we need him.

If people want to compare Lou and Dusty i think the bullpen is where you can do it.  Lou totally mismanages our pen.  One example is using Marmol in a 10-2 game against the Rockies.  Why?

"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"

by HIGGY on Sep 7, 2007 6:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Al you really
think this is a serious blow to the Cubs playoff hopes? I don't. A serious blow is losing 2 out of three with five games to play and being three games out. A set back yes, but a serious blow, no.

Fans, keep your chins up. We are still in the hunt. Does not matter if we are tied for first or at this point of the season two games out. We are with in striking distance.

Truth be told though, this lose really hurts.

"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Sep 6, 2007 6:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

By hurts
I mean to me and the rest of us. Damn, hate to give one away like today. But that is baseball.
"You can't take life to seriously, you don't get out of it alive"

by wild bill on Sep 6, 2007 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

we
must sweep the buck-o's
put soriano in the 5-hole please!!!!

by tbizzle83 on Sep 6, 2007 6:34 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Just Venting ---
I did not take the time to go back and read the posts during and after Dempster's blown save. I was listening on the radio when he gave up the HR.
But the time has come to vent.

We can find all kinds of reasons why the game was lost. We fault Ward for getting picked off -- inexcusable. Like Brenly said last night -- a good ballplayer keeps his head up -- he doesn't turn his head after a ball or strike at the plate and lose concentration. For God's sake, we all know that Ward is not going to take a huge leadoff, he is not going to steal, he is not going to confuse the opposition with his blazing speed. He just plain lost it -- he did not pay attention to what was going on and got picked off by the catcher. Bottom line -- he screwed up.
But we lost because our closer did not do what he is paid to do  --  he gave up the tying and winning runs.
Let me ask all of you a question --- do you feel comfortable when Dempster enters a game when we are winning by a run or two in the ninth inning? Let me ask all of you a second question -- would you rather have Marmol or Dempster pitch when the game is on the line like it was today? If you can honestly say and I do mean honestly say that you would rather have Dempster in the situation that we saw today rather than Marmol, I need to hear a rational explanation.
The statistics tell us that Dempster has only blown three saves this year.  All of them were real eye openers. I was at the one in Atlanta in June. Most of us saw the one against the Mets and sat back in disbelief.
Then today -- another implosion. And how many other times has he put men on base and escaped.
Dempster is an accident waiting to happen. If you do not believe that Marmol should be the closer in games like today, I feel sorry for you. Marmol should be our closer -- hands down. The oppostion fears him -- just look at the results.
With two men on base, don't we all think that Marmol should have been in the game with Ethier at the plate?
Dempster is not the man -- he does not strike fear into the hearts of mortal men.
In these last 23 games, Marmol needs to be the closer not Dempster.
If Lou continues to use him in these types of situations, we are doomed.
I have been a Cubs fan for well over fifty years and feel that I have some insight. You may not like what I have said but I have to vent.
We can win this thing -- but not with Dempster as our closer and with our best pinch hitter Ward playing right field.
We all bitch about the Deadbirds and their savior Ankiel. But where is our Ankiel? He does not have to be a resurrected pitcher. We need some of our guys to save us -- someone to get a hit when we need it instead of another double play or called third strike.
We all want this team to win -- we die everytime they lose -- we need to win more than two games in a row -- but we also need some smart decisions by both our manager and our players.

by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 7:02 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That's why Lou is manager
Lou is not a knee jerk person and that's why he's a manager.

He's not dumb enough to go to another closer in a pennant race when he blows his first save in just under 3 months.

This is going to be the fall and winter of our content in Chicago.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm comfortable with Dempster closing.
Here's my rational explanation. Use Dempster judiciously. What was he doing throwing the 9th inning the night before? Dempster doesn't have a rubber arm.

Neither does Mármol. He fails sometimes. If I recall correctly, he started somewhat shaky the 7th inning Wednesday night. However, because Mármol is not throwing in the 9th inning, there is time for him and the team to recover. Dempster doesn't have that luxury.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dempster threw on Wed. night...
... because he was warming up when the game was a save situation.

Lou should have gotten someone else up once the game got out of hand, thus saving Dempster for today.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Sep 6, 2007 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Glancing at Dempster's gamelog
Before today he pitched back-to-back games on the following dates: September 1st and 2nd, August 21st and 22nd, August 17th and 18th, June 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th, June 3rd and 4th, May 17th and 18th, May 4th, 5th and 6th, and April 14th and 15th.

In EVERY SINGLE one of those previous back-to-backs Dempster was just as effective on the second day as he was the first and in many of those back-to-backs he was MORE effective the second day.  The June 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th appearances are an interesting example.  On June 10th he melted down against Atlanta, giving up 3 runs (he hadn't pitched in 3 days before that appearance).  The next THREE days he didn't give up a run, saving a 2-1 game against Houston (the 1-game makeup), pitching a perfect inning in a 5-3 loss to Seattle, and saving a 3-2 game against Seattle.

In his time as a reliever Dempster has historically thrived with more work.  In short, there was no reason why Sweet Lou wouldn't expect a decent performance from Dempster in a back-to-back situation.  Dempster is not the kind of reliever that needs to be "saved".  As I recall, the general consensus around here was his struggles last season were due to inactivity.  Now he's getting too much work?  I don't think so.  He just blew this one plain and simple.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent research!
So today's game can be considered a statistical anomaly for the premise he's bad in the 2nd day of back-to-back games.

Now back to your regular programming.

Good job...

So how 'bout us all talking about a Cubs win, say 23 hours and 20 minutes from now?!

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks!
I'm all for that!  

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not up for Marmol closing
We don't know what this kid is made of inside. It's one thing to shut a team down in the 7th.

It's another to do it in the 9th.

Dempster has been pretty good for us. He last blew a save June 10.

I'll take a closer who goes from June 10 to Sept. 6 without blowing a save any day of the week.

He's one of the reasons we're here.  

I blame him for the meltdown, but I also blame Lou for using him Wednesday night. I blame Lee for not getting to the ball. I blame Howry for not shutting the door on the 8th.

I blame the offense for not scoring more.

by lancaster99 on Sep 6, 2007 7:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Finally someone makes sense
You want to know who was a lights out 7th and 8th inning guy?

Latroy Hawkins.

This is going to be the fall and winter of our content in Chicago.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My thoughts exactly.
I heard that Lou was in a bad mood in his news conference. I hope he was mad at himself because he blew it.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?
Lou gave up 4 runs in the 9th?  Looked like Dempster to me.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No.
Lou brought a reliever who wasn't sharp because he used him the night before in a meaningless situation.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But
that reliever is historically not sharp when he's used too infrequently.  He's known to be sharper when he gets a lot of work.  Last year one of the roots of his struggles was that he didn't get regular work since the Cubs weren't in many save situations.  Lou was just giving him work since he hadn't pitched in a few days.  Supposedly he likes working back to back.  Do you follow this team on a regular basis?

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I follow the team.
And Dempster was used one time too many Wednesday night. Heck, if he pitches better in consecutive games, why not bring him in to close every game until the end of the season? It doesn't make any sense, right? Neither did bringing him in with a 6 run lead Wednesday night. That chicken came home to roost Thursday afternoon.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not EVERY game
but back-to-back games should be no problem for him.  In fact, until today, not only has it been no problem but he's been stronger in the second game.  Today he gave up some well-placed singles and a wind-blown homer.  That stuff happens and I don't think it had anything to do with him pitching yesterday.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

His pitches were high...
even though the target was low. That's a sign of a tired pitcher.

Dempster was effective pitching in consecutive games earlier in the season and after his DL stint. But it's September, late in the season, under the summer heat, and human beings tire easily under these conditions.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure
Whatever you say.  He suddenly got tired yesterday even though he was able to throw 4 consecutive outings earlier in the season and he's historically been more effective on the second day of back-to-back outings.  But hey, if he threw a few high pitches that must mean he's tired.  I mean Dempster's been known to have pinpoint control and the only reason he'd throw a high pitch is if he's tired.  Gimme a break.

If you want to blame the manager for everything that goes wrong with the Cubs that's certainly your prerogative.  Unfortunately in this case the facts don't add up.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am defending Dempster.
Are you sure you are doing the same? If Dempster has no pinpoint control, as you say, then you are inadvertently joining the chorus that says he should not be the closer. I say the opposite. He is good. He has control. He should close.

Remember, the numbers you cite are from earlier in the season and his appearances take a toll, as they would on any human being. It's up to the manager to use his bullpen with care and save the closer in September for save situations. For instance, look at what happened to Torre last season for using Mariano Rivera too much.

In other words, I don't blame the manager for everything that goes wrong. As a fan, I just hold Lou accountable for those things that are part of his responsibilities, like the lineup and using the relievers.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So if that's the case
perhaps the next time, he will consider Howry on the 2nd night or just say f-it, let one of the kids start the 9th when they have a 6-run lead.
Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If anyone thinks Dempster should be closing...
.....or is even a capable closer is, well I was gonna be harsh and say baseball illiterate but I be nice and say clueless and in toatl Cubby denial.

 He has poor control and can't work out of situations with K's because he can't strike anyone out anymore and he pitches to contact.

 I said last week that Dempster should not be closing and Marmol should be given the opportunity and that Dumpster would blow one within the week and as usual, I was right again.

by lemon20pie on Sep 7, 2007 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

dempster...
...is 25-28 in save opportunities, which very well may be the best save percentage in baseball.

in any event, when considering dempster's save percentage, his ERA becomes almost inconsequential especially when considering that a closer's primary duty is to preserve (save) the lead.  

fundamentally, it really doesn't matter if dempster gives up a run, here or there, so long as he  records the save.

"If you'da been thinkin you wouldn't 'a thought that." ~~ "Squints" Palledorous

by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like how some folks call others clueless...
when they do not know with whom they're conversing.

What I hear here from the Dempster dumpers is he shouldn't be closing but not once has there been a feasible plan-B.

We have a "Marmol to close" campaigner in here but no forthright understanding how Marmols' current role (a more than 1 inning middle of the game stopper) is going to be replaced.

Will Marmol be the closer of the future? Likely. Will he be put in the role exclusively now, like some here suggest? No. If you've watched Lou all season you would know he doesn't make these knee-jerk reactions.

Just once, I'd like to come on here and not see so many ledge-jumpers when 1 game goes wrong.

And please spare us the "if we lose the division title by 1 game speech". There are already more than a dozen of those candidates this season.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you really want to avoid the
ledge jumps then you need to stay away during game threads. It really gets ugly during the games, especially when they fall behind. I would imagine it will be really angst filled these last few weeks. It amazes me how little adversity some of these posters can take. I'm not happy about the outcome of yesterday's game, but happy that the games still have significance in Sept.

by billybuck on Sep 7, 2007 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is the last good team the Cubs face..
Unfortunately, they couldn't get a split... I think there's a decent winning streak left in the this team and they'll hold off Milw and StL..  However, this series shows the Cubs don't have what it take to beat AZ, SD or NY in the playoffs.  And please spare me with, BUT THE CARDINALS IN 2006..  That team had vast playoff experience, and the Cubs don't have Cardinal luck.  What other organization could get Jeff Weaver to dominate down the stretch.  I don't wanna hear it.
SORIANO! YESSSSSSSS! JIMBO!!!

by CubFaninCA on Sep 6, 2007 7:17 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Biggest game of the season
Biggest game of the season is tomorrow.

This team has shown a resilliency this year.

Has anyone noticed they seem to not get down by bad games but also not up after good games?

This is going to be the fall and winter of our content in Chicago.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:21 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Here's some fun 2003 stats
On Sept. 6, 2003, the Cubs were in the middle of a six-game winning streak.

They beat the Red Roosters two in a row to finish that wonderful 4 of 5 game series. Then they swept the Schlitzes. All that time, however, they only remained a .5 game up.

Then they beat the French Canadiens 4-3, with Big Z getting the victory. But because the Astros played on the Cubs' off-day, the Cubs and Astros were tied.

Then we lost two games to the Frenchies, including a 3-2 loss where Alex Gonzalez hit into a double play in the 9th, scoring Alou, but ending the threat.

The Astros swept the Red Chickens, who by this point were rolling over like the dogs they are, and we only take two of three from the Reds, leaving us 2 games back on Sept. 14

The last game was a killer. Zambrano throws 129 pitches, and gives up one run in the top of the ninth. Loses 1-0. Cubs get 7 hits, can't bring any of them across.

Bottom 1st: Alou and A-Ram consecutive strikeouts with two men on.

Bottom 6th: Bases loaded, Gonzalez grounds out.

Lowest point of the season. Two games out. Can't muster a single run in support of Big Z.

And guess what happened the rest of the way...

Hold on, kiddies. The ride is just beginning.

In 2003, we were 1.5 games out on Sept. 20 and 2 up on Sept. 27.

We've got a ways to go.

And Dempster will be one of the ones who gets us there.

by lancaster99 on Sep 6, 2007 7:22 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, but...
there are no Alous or hitters like that in this year's team. The 2003 team was much better.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And...
Our competition is much worse.

by lancaster99 on Sep 6, 2007 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pack up the tums
Guys pack up the tums for this ride.  We're going to need them.

We had a bad few games.  Cardinals and Brewers had a good few games.

We all hit the road.  We are 500 on the road they couldn't beat my nephews tball team on the road.

How's this for Dempster?  If the Brewers are on the road they'd be better off with him.

I read some bozo on another site say the Cubs don't deserve to win the division and this is a Cubs fan.

Whoever wins the division will deserve to win it.  And you can make a serious argument the Cubs deserve it the most as of now because they've dominated the season series against both teams.

This is going to be the fall and winter of our content in Chicago.

by cubstoseriesby100 on Sep 6, 2007 7:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What is our record against the Pirates
this year?  I seem to remember us losing 3 out of 4 in the last series.  The pirates always play us tough.  I hope we can do better and stay in this thing.  We really are due for another hot streak let's hope it comes soon.  Personally, I'm down but not out.  

by mgfabc on Sep 6, 2007 7:29 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Serenity Now
If there's one guy that can shake this stink off him, it's Dempster. He has the mental make-up for the role. Marmol will get his chance....later.

Can't get nervous this time; I think I got half my gray hair from the '03 drive and what happened in games 6 & 7.

Ok boys, get your butts to the steel city and win tomorrow night. 1 game at a time. How's that for an old, tired cliche'?

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 7:59 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Mental Makeup ??
The guy to do the job has to do that -- get the job done. To hell with mental makeup -- when you continually put men on base, get behind in the count, throw pitches down the middle of the plate, you are flirting with disaster. It just becomes a matter of time before what happened today happens again.
I do not want to be in that situation again and it will happen again. It is time to grab this situation by the nuts and get the job done.
Do any of us really care about the closer of the future, about what happened last month, last week, or today? No  ---  it is what is going to happen tomorrow, Saturday, and the rest of the season. Marmol has not done what Dempster did today -- maybe he will. But I for one fear that Dempster given the chance will do it again before Marmol given the chance will do it for the first time.

by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hell with mental make-up?
Do you realize the stones it takes to go out there in the 9th? I'm convinced it takes a special breed.

Besides, who's gonna be your guy in the 5th-7th innings to take Marmol's place when he closes? There is none, not one single guy.

What's next? Going back to 2-3 inning relievers?

Too much of the sky-is-falling thing.

Dempster has to go out there the next time, say in about 24 hours hopefully, put this out of his mind and do the job.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.
You ask: "Besides, who's gonna be your guy in the 5th-7th innings to take Marmol's place when he closes? There is none, not one single guy."

I bet he answers "Dempster".

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now...
...I'm waiting for an answer.

This is what drives me nuts. Every time a single event costs the Cubs a game, there's always ledge-jumpers, and no plan-B.

Marmol is being groomed for the closers' role; that will be oh-so apparent say come Feb 18th or so when "pitchers and catchers report".

I think I'm gonna go get another beer and listen for my brain aneurysm.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mental ??
So what makes you believe that Marmol doesn't have the mental makeup?
What does mental makeup have to do what allowing hitters to reach base?
It is about the ability to get the job done. Not throwing hittable balls down the middle of the plate and getting behind in the count and forcing you to throw those hittable pitches.
How many of Marmol's pitches are hittable?
And again --
just because you have used a certain pitcher in game saving situations day after day, does not mean that you can't use the other guy (Marmol) in certain situations. Are we afraid that the usual closer might get pissed off because he is not used everytime a game is on the line. We are constantly looking at numbers and matchups. Why can't we for once say -- this is a spot where a guy like Marmol might be the best option.
Why does it have to black and white -- red and blue? Why can't we have the option like we did today to put the guy in who has been "lights out" most every time we have used him.

by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You still haven't provided...
...a 2-3 inning guy that can put out a fire once Marmol is closing.

Sometimes games are saved in the 5th and 6th innings.

It's funny that ONE PITCH is causing this entire dialogue. AND since this isn't game #162, please spare the speech about losing the division title by 1 game. 'Cause there are a dozen-plus of those to go around.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's nut cuttin time folks
you have 3 teams in a virtual lock with about 25 games to go.  Which ever team has their best players step up and put the team on their backs will end up winning this thing.

Throughout the remaining schedules etc., the team who plays the best will win this thing.  04 should have been a good lesson, as the Cubs has a cake walk schedule, but basically imploded the final two weeks.

Which team is going to take this thing by the balls?  I can see scenerios where any of the three can take it.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Sep 6, 2007 8:09 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

But we cannot deny...
that it is the Cubs who are on a losing streak right now, playing badly while the other two teams are playing well.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Playing well?
The Cubs lost three of four to a Dodger team that is a contender, and one of the losses was to one of the best pitchers in the league, Brad Penny, and another was because of a spectacular blown save.

The Cardinals split a series with a mediocre Pirates team, and got blown out in the two losses.

So remind me who's playing better?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Sep 7, 2007 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

playing better?
the team that wins is the one that is playing better. the cubs just lost 3 of 4, at home, whilst in a playoff run in september.

regardless to whom and/or how they lost is of no consequence. moral victories, at this point, provide no solace whatsoever.

"If you'da been thinkin you wouldn't 'a thought that." ~~ "Squints" Palledorous

by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

correction
to whom and/or how they lost is of no consequence.
"If you'da been thinkin you wouldn't 'a thought that." ~~ "Squints" Palledorous

by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right-on!!!
Lets not forget that the Brewers finish the season with 4 @ Atlanta, 3 @ home vs. the Red Birds, and 4 @ home vs. the Padres.

Not a good stretch for them.  Not at all.

And the Cards still got series left with Philly and the Mets, and the Brewers.

Patience, patience.  We play one team above .500 the rest of the way.

"I love this world. I hope hell is as much fun!"

by HIGGY on Sep 7, 2007 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Facts.
Records for the last ten games:

Cubs 5-5
Milwaukee and St. Louis 6-4.

The latter is a better record, thank God not by much.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Still No Answer
Three blown saves --
Read the numbers --
He's a veteran --
Marmol hasn't been there before --

I will ask once again --

Who do you want to close with the game on the line in a save situation in one of these last 23 games? Marmol or Dempster?

Do you honestly believe that Dempster offers the best chance? If you do, be happy with your decision.

Veterans be damned -- I want the guy that I honestly believe has the best chance of shutting down the opposition. Just look at his numbers and I mean take a hard look. Marmol is the guy -- not Dempster.

It's like walking the plank -- how many times do you need to stand out there  before you take one misstep and you get eaten alive? I for one do not want to go there to begin with and I want Marmol to save me -- not Dempster.

by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 8:12 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

OK, if Marmol closes...
who is your 'put out the fire righty'? If you're uncomfortable with Demp coming in to start an inning (9th that is) you can't possibly be comfortable with him putting out a fire.

Does that role move to Howry? How about 5th and 6th inning situations? If Marmol is the closer, you're gonna bring in Howry to do what Marmol's done? Then that means Dempster is an 8th inning guy.

Remember there were a couple games that in the middle innings, Lou went to Marmol, and for more than 3 outs. His reasoning? If I waited until the 7th inning, there may not have been any game to save.

Marmol has 2, maybe 3 inning capability; he's a recently converted starter and a strong kid. I like that luxury in case a starter can't go 7 innings. The Cubs don't have another guy, perhaps except for Howry that could do that.

Sorry but I don't believe Lou is going to shoot from the hip and change the bullpen routine after Demp's 3rd blown save in 28 chances. 25/28 isn't that bad.

This is a job best left for spring training, especially if the roster has any notable moves during the off-season.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Spring Training ??
Let's call it situational --
Just like today. There are two dozen games left in the season.
I understand your looking back at what Marmol and Dempster have done over the past two months. If we look close enough at Dempster's saves I am sure that we can find many of them when he qualified for a save that was not like today -- a one run lead with three outs left.
We are not looking at a season here -- we are looking at less than four weeks.
In a given situation, like today, I ask once again -- who offers the best opportunity for the save?  Marmol or Dempster? This is not hindsight -- yes we lost and I might be accused of it. However, I asked myself this question well before Dempster trotted out to the mound.
Who would I rather have out there in the 9th? My answer was Marmol. Based on what I have seen Dempster do throughout the season, I personally think that Marmol is the best guy we had at that time to do the job.
Somebody questioned why Lou used him on Wednesday. So what -- he used him. In the 9th today, can you honestly say that you would rather have seen Dempster in than Marmol. Just look at Marmol's numbers if that is what the stats guys want you to believe. Dempster is not a shut down guy -- he is a "let's hope he holds them" guy. Marmol is a shut down guy. Can he fail? Sure -- but again -- how do you like our chances with Dempster vs. our chances with Marmol?

by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Situational? Possible
and more probable than "Marmol should be the closer".

Until there's another put-out-the-fire guy who can also go 2-3 innings, then a blanket statement of Marmol being a closer simply won't work.

I'd still go with Dempster. Changing a line-up (or in this case, relievers' role) everytime something goes wrong does not bode well for team stability.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right.
"Changing a line-up (or in this case, relievers' role) everytime something goes wrong does not bode well for team stability."

Tell Lou. He changes the lineup every night and makes it worse every time.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But how often is it...
...when one single position player costs the game on one play?

The lineup is a different slant. The unit as a whole isn't clicking like we thought.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Today pretty much stunk
But, I think we've all seen worse. To be honest, I never expected this team to be where they are right now, which is nice.

phat

by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 8:15 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Where We Are --
You are right -- absolutely right. No one expected us to be where we are right now.
However -- lets take it one step further. Since we are where we are -- what do we have to do to get to the finish line and be on top?
Several things -- hit with men on base, get quality starting pitching (and I don't think that three runs in six innings is quality. It equals an ERA of 4.50 which is not quality in my mind).
And -- bunt like good little leaguers do; make rountine plays in the field; and once in a while the not-so-routine plays. Finally, a closer who gets the job done; not one who not only can't hold the lead but gives up the winning run as well.

by ceegeewow on Sep 6, 2007 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, I haven't seen worse than today.
And yes, I expected this team to be about 71-67 at this point. That's about .500 ball. What I didn't expect was that that would be enough to have a piece of first place.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well there was
one game this year that I think was worse (same reliever in, oddly enough).

Good point, though, about being in first.

phat

by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damn disappointing ...
Why do each of the three blown saves seem to blow us out of the water?  We need every player to be ready to fight for first place ... especially Zambrano ...!

LRRF

Coming soon: "The Russian Diplomat's Daughter: A Novel About George Armstrong Custer"

by Littlerock Rynofan on Sep 6, 2007 8:17 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I felt worse after the Mets game.
We had a 4 run lead going into the 9th.  

by mgfabc on Sep 6, 2007 8:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Me too maybe
because it was in that shithole they call Shea Stadium. It's almost like I saw that damned cat walk right by Ronnie at the on-deck circle.
Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That wasn't a blown save,
believe it or not. Since it was a four-run lead, it was not a save situation.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 7, 2007 12:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I always wondered about this
Did it become a save situation after the first run was scored (making it a 3-run game)?
Go Cubbies!

by NC Cubs Fan on Sep 7, 2007 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No
It's when the reliever enters the game.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Scott Eyre...
... who gave up the two hits that won that game for the Mets, DID get a blown save in that game, because when he entered, it WAS a save situation.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Sep 7, 2007 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
n/t
Go Cubbies!

by NC Cubs Fan on Sep 7, 2007 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

One of the many
reasons why the save statistic is stupid.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I felt worse today...
because there was more at stake.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Loony over Dempster....
...What great game  and post-game threads. Let's all throw Dempster under the bus. OK, bad outing, get over it.

Why did he pitch last night with an 8-2 lead. No reason.

Where was our gold glove first baseman? He makes the play (rightly called a hit, but one a gold glover should make) the odds of seeing that wind aided first row home run drop to nil. Oh, can anyone hit besides Soriano?

I'll take a closer who goes three months without blowing a save----any time and I'll be cheering for him the next time he comes in and gets the save.

El Jefe

by Reverend Jim Ignatowski on Sep 6, 2007 8:34 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes
phat

by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually.............
........the result was bad for Dempster, but the outing wasn't.

He started with two strikes on the lead-off hitter, Martin, and after a ball, Martin slapped a pitch that was up and out of the zone to RF for a single.

The next batter, Loney, is down 0-2 and rolls over the top of a pitch that Lee just couldn't flag down.

Now Ethier.  Dempster starts him with a strike as well.  Unfortunately Ethier managed to get the next pitch up in the jet stream and the wind blew it out.

When you look at this, Dempster came in throwing strikes and was ahead of every hitter.  He could have been out of the inning 1-2-3, but instead wound up wearing the goat horns.

I can't accept him coming in and ball-fouring everyone, but I'm okay with this outing because he threw the ball well.  Sometimes the results don't reflect the effort.

by tville on Sep 6, 2007 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

After seeng
the highlights (I was working during the game), I generally agree with this.  Sometimes baseball can be very cruel and today the Cubs and Dempster got the short end of it.  Hopefully they come back strong tomorrow and don't get demoralized by this.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I totally agree!
I re-watched the whole tragic 9th inning this evening (Comcast Encore) and I concur with everything you say. This was not Dempster gagging with balls and walks. In fact, I was wondering why Lee was not playing closer to the line on Martin's hit (no doubles defense in the 9th?). Of the 5 hits Dempster gave up, only the double to right was a hard hit ball. As you said, the Ethier homer was wind-aided--a deep fly out in 75% of the games this year. I won't be down on Dempster. Shit happens. He is our guy. I hope he starts a streak of 10-15 saves in a row again. As you said, he was throwing strikes and was often getting grounders that fielders just missed making plays on. Onward.
Prince Fielder...he is neither.

by LAcarl519 on Sep 6, 2007 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great post.
I totally agree and couldn't have said it better.
Hey Lou, we're long overdue.

by deadcatbounce on Sep 7, 2007 7:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait a minute!
WHERE DOES DEMP Rank AMONG HIS MLB PEERS?

18th in MLB

His 3.88 era is AMONG THE WORST in the League.

For a Closer, for Pete's Sake!

Weighted against his peers, he is middle of the pack.

So - it could be worse, but don't let the save percentage numbers give you too much of a chubby.

Today's was the tough one.

Its all even again!

Save %90

2-5 Record

Ks/9, 6.85   

Whip 1.30   

BA .215

   

It is SEPTEMBER, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Sep 6, 2007 8:41 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

There are just a few...
outstanding closers in the majors. Sure, Dempster is no Mariano Rivera but he has been very good. The problem is that when he is bad he is really bad, like today. That explains his ERA.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 6, 2007 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup, Dempster blew it
Game #138, the season is over. Time to pack it in. Some of the folks have to step back, take a deep breath and get another beer.

Kinda of wish we had the Rivera of the '96-'00 era but we don't. But what we have isn't that bad.

Funny thing...all this can change in less than 24 hours.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again, when compared to his peers
he is middle of the pack.

If that is very good for you that maybe you're being to ez on him.

I think he'll bounce back - but his splits show he's .50 era worse on the road than home.

The team JUST NEEDS TO START HITTING!

And it would help...

We need a Rick Ankiel! NOT a Craig Monroe.

It is SEPTEMBER, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Sep 6, 2007 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yup I am being easy on him
'cause I honestly believe he'll bounce back. He's got the right frame of mind for the role and we all know pitching is 10% physical, 110% mental.
Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oddly, the thing that convinced me
Dempster has the mental makeup necessary for a closer was that game in Philly in 2005 when he walked the bases full, then struck out the side. It took some major-league stones to get out of that situation with the save.

Talk about a Mitch Williams moment.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 7, 2007 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Think I remember that game...
..and will add a little nugget; you can correct me if I'm wrong.

Not only did he walk the bags full, I think he even walked in a run - to cut the lead from 2 runs to 1 run - only to get out of it.

Yes, the mental makeup is important. An artifact that is lost on some of the folks here.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just disappointed....
I think we all hit highs and lows today.  I am disappointed in the outcome of the game, especially because I thought we had this in the bag.

I realize that Ward should have been called safe but the call didn't go our way.  We all read the article about him being sorry but this close to playoffs, we need to be more carefull on the bases.  Remember Soriano getting picked off a few times very early in the season.  I think this took a little bit of the wind out of our sails for that inning today.

Derek has always been stellar on defense and should make the plays but he has also come through for us when it mattered.

The one I can't let go is Dempster.  I know that he has been pretty good all year but today was huge.  We are going to be facing some very stiff competition in the next few weeks, hopefully months, to come and we need to shut down a game like this.  Bottom line is that he consistantly allows base runners on when he is in.

I can't blame one player or the other but we need to get it together and , as Al said, start winning now.

Anyone going to be in Pittsburgh this weekend?

 

by 1060 W Addison on Sep 6, 2007 9:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Just win tomorrow
I started this list of "shoulda, coulda, woulda"; a list of games they should have won but didn't for some reason. Like the Z-game against the Reds here in Apr. Up 5-0 only to see Z give up a touchdown in the 6th inning.

Well that list had almost all of its entries (10 of them I think) in Apr-Jun. Well this is #11. They just have to go out there tomorrow and play well.

Hate to use the cliche' of 1 at a time but that's what it is.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is a pretty good team
with some talent. It's a team that can take the division and I still think likely will. I don't know that anybody expected them to be in the hunt at this point.

A couple of players haven't been playing as well as they should and a couple have been playing better than expected. The team has come together as a team and been able to win games that people didn't expect them to win.

This is not the best Cubs team ever, but it sure is an enjoyable team, especially after last year's team. Stick with it. We all know that baseball is about probabilities. Anything can happen.

phat

by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 9:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm probably one of the few that expected them
to be better than they are now. Early in the season the pole question was how many games will the Cubs win? I put them at 90-72.

However if they win the division by just 1 game like in '03, then it won't be all that bad. The first step would have been taken.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I certainly hoped they'd be better.
But just looking at the odds made it unlikely, even with some of the new signings and such.

Last year this team was, on this date, 18.5 games back from first place.

That's one hell of a turnaround.

phat

by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

what to do?
St. Louis vs. Milwaukee 24-26th who do u root for? The Cubs are gonna be screwed no matter what during that series. And if the race remains that close until then its gonna be even worse because one of them has to win.

by ryan797 on Sep 6, 2007 9:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If...
St'L is closer to the Cubs, root for the Brewers, 2 out of 3. If Milw is closer, root for the Birds 2 out of 3. That seems so far away from now, oh so much can happen.
Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

what happens if its down to the wire?
what do we do i cant take the pressure!

by ryan797 on Sep 6, 2007 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then the Cubs had better
have one hell of a six-game road trip to end the season; 3 in Fla, 3 in Cincy...
Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 6, 2007 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It depends on what the Cubs do with
The Cards before then, doesn't it?

I think we'll be rooting for the Cards.

phat

by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

On further thought
If all three teams play .500 ball, which I think is very possible, then we root for the Cards to split it and root for the Cubs the whole way.

Really, it's up to the Cubs right now to write their own destiny.

phat

by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't imagine booing Ethier....
...what would happen if his five girlfiends heard it?   Where would the love and support come from then?  He sounds like a tool.

by DudeVf11 on Sep 6, 2007 9:53 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Dempster in back to back games
He's given up more than 1 run on 5 occasions this year. None of those days prior to this were in back to back games.

He has pitched back to back in 14 games covering 15 innings. Today were the first runs scored against him during the entire season. So to claim Lou should not have used him because he threw 9 pitches last night just doesn't make sense.

It's not too late to go to Soto

by tharr on Sep 6, 2007 9:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Cubs have the easier schedule
Out of the three teams though. I hope that goes to their advantage. Even though they struggled with those teams this season.

by ryan797 on Sep 6, 2007 10:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Easier Schedule???
Are you kidding???

They have the worst record among Brew, and Cardinals, against our own Division.

You can lie to yourself all you want, but the fact is that the entire schedule, from here on out, is gonna be hard as hell for them.

Each and every game.

It is slipping through their grasp right now.

We'll all see how it plays out. I had them as a below .500 team. I'm HOPING it doesn't end like that.

It is SEPTEMBER, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Sep 6, 2007 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd feel much better if
we played the Red Sox, Yankees, and Indians for the remainder of the year... instead of the lowly Pirates, reds, and Astros (all of whom we can't beat to a bloody pulp like we should).
1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 6, 2007 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very demoralizing
loss for me. Couldn't believe it was happening. It's going to be like this the rest of the way; we aren't very good but neither are the Brewers or Cardinals. One of the three is basically going to back into the division title, probably with a record of 83-79 or 82-80.

by qccub on Sep 6, 2007 10:02 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Here's your "easier schedule" Theory
Cubs games against the "bad" Pirates/Reds/Astros/Marlins. Cubs current record against these teams: 15-21
It is SEPTEMBER, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Sep 6, 2007 10:26 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Eman, take out the Marlins sweep
That was when the team was at its nadir and the Marlins still looked decent.

I would term the Cubs' performance against the Reds, Pirates and Astros to be mediocre. If you believe it won't get any better, you must also then believe the Brewers won't improve their road record in their 13 remaining road games from its current putridity.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 6, 2007 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're right, Bruce
However - head-to-head, the Cards and Brew have been much more dominant over the "bad" teams than the Cubbies -

Hey - we're all gonna see how the team responds in the next - what - 22 days?

It is SEPTEMBER, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Sep 7, 2007 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Theres other teams i would much rather not vs
These teams are beatable they may have struggled with them in the past but there's worse

by ryan797 on Sep 6, 2007 10:33 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I must say I'm surprised
I was gone all day and had no computer access, so I wasn't able to keep up with the game thread. I dare not look at it now, because I have no interest in picking through the venting/ledge-jumping/Dempster demonization.

This thread has some rational, logical posts. I don't see how you can beat up on a guy who hadn't blown a save in three months, and who had a bit of bad luck to boot. Unfortunately for him (and the Cubs), this was a case of bad timing. Better to blow one now than in, say, Game No. 161. (And to whomever cited Howry's allowing of the eighth-inning homer, good job. The back end of the pen has been exceptional for months. They were due to fail. Again, bad timing.)

I disagree with Al in the thinking this does damage to the Cubs' postseason hopes. As far as I'm concerned, it's come down to a 24-game season. Forget what the Cubs, Brewers and Cardinals have done to this point. Whoever plays the best from now until Sept. 30 is going to win the division.

I think the Cubs have the edge in talent and in schedule. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll win it, but if they don't, they'll have nobody to blame but themselves. The "hardest" part of the Cubs' schedule is basically over. The Brewers and the Cardinals still have some tough tests ahead.

I think the team is showing signs of coming out of this offensive funk. I also think that if Z pitches last Monday like Z usually does, this game today becomes an afterthought.

The point I'm trying to make is that right now, for all intents and purposes, the Cubs, Brewers and Cardinals are 0-0. It's going to go down right to the bitter end, perhaps even the last day of the season. (Not unlike 2003, when the Cubs wrapped it up on the penultimate day of the season.) Now's your chance to abandon ship. If you don't think you can handle the next three weeks, you're free to go. No hard feelings.

Otherwise, buckle yourselves in and get ready for a wild ride.

I will be in Pittsburgh this weekend -- I'm flying out tomorrow afternoon -- to see it for myself. My first games since the series in Milwaukee in June. Don't know what the Internet situation will be there, but if I can, I'll check in.

Go Cubs. Go all the way.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 6, 2007 10:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You are right
I think I've been one of the people who have been listed as a Kool-aid drinker here and I'm not even sure I can take the next few weeks.

It's going to be very stressful, I think. A good 6 game road win streak would be really nice right about now.

phat

by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

NBF: May your trip to Pittsburgh
bring the Cubs good luck and many victories! I agree that all the Dempster bashing is silly and I hope you get to see a real gem from Z in Pittsburgh. I know all three teams are tied in the loss column, but I have a feeling the Cubs are going to play some solid ball from now through the weekend in StLouis. This is a big push time. Enjoy the ride!
Prince Fielder...he is neither.

by LAcarl519 on Sep 6, 2007 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, LACarl
Have you ever been to PNC Park? Easily, it's the best of the new breed.

I'll be hoisting a Yuengling beer (or four) to toast all of you and, with hope and luck, a Cubs sweep. (Two out of three would be OK, too.)

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 6, 2007 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have a great
trip NB. Hope you can check in with us.
I love this team!!!

by sue369 on Sep 7, 2007 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Several issues with your post...
(1) it's actually no better to blow one now than in game 161.  And even if it is, does blowing one now eliminate the possibility of blowing one in game 161?

(2) ANY loss does damage to postseason hopes.  That concept should be very simple to understand, since the team that wins the most games gets to the playoffs (i.e., the team that loses the fewest).

(3) what does "they'll have no one to blame but themselves" matter?  I think the whole point of the "doom and gloomers" is that the Cubs are blowing it.  For example, we just lost 3 of 4 at home in a pennant race.  That's a bad thing.  St Louis struggled with Pittsburgh, and we still lost ground.

(4) "if Z pitches like Z usually does" - Z's ERA this year is 4.35.  If he pitches like usual, we MIGHT have won.  Z has been incredibly mediocre on average this year, and terrible in his last 6-7 starts.  That's reason for concern.

I want the Cubs to win, but they are going to have to play much better than they have the past 5 weeks to have a chance, because St Louis has been much stronger lately and Milwaukee seems to have turned the corner with the return of Sheets.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 7:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

BRUCE! KNOCK IT DOWN, BABY!
I agree - it is "Best of 24"!

I gotta hand it to LaRussa - I just don't know how the F he does it...

Simply amazing.

It is SEPTEMBER, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Sep 7, 2007 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

to hell with larussa!
"If you'da been thinkin you wouldn't 'a thought that." ~~ "Squints" Palledorous

by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's obvious how LaRussa does it
By passing out syringes and pills.

He's had two great runs in his career, and both of them have been tainted by steroids or HGH.

Canseco and McGwire and God knows who else on the A's, which choked in the playoffs anyway, and then McGwire, Ankiel, and probably Rolen and Edmonds on the Cards.

by lancaster99 on Sep 7, 2007 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Than is absolutely pure
speculation on YOUR part with no basis in fact anywhere.

so EVERY year when his Cardinals have either WON the Division, World Series, or been right there, his team was on performance enhancing drugs?

That is total BS!

How about some credit to Walt Jockety, LaRussa, Duncan, and the farm system that has also supported them with some decent picks while the Cubs gave us shit.

It is SEPTEMBER, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Sep 7, 2007 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

THAN=THAT
It is SEPTEMBER, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Sep 7, 2007 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Check yestaerday's thread.
Only for the posts from santoswoodenlegs with a photograph of Miss South Carolina and another one with a photo of Saddam's spokesman (what was the guy's nickname?) during the Iraq War. They're hilarious!

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Honorable Mention for my posts? LOL
"When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches."- Ron Santo

by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do all of our top position prospects
absolutely stink in the majors.

We have to watch the Brewers produce guys up and down the lineup that knock the cover off the ball like Sexton, Hardy, Hart, Fielder and Braun... and watch the Astros come up with guys like Berkman, Ensberg (who sucks now), Tavaris and Pence... and watch the Cardinals come up with Pujols, Polanco, Drew, and now Ankiel. It absolutely disgusts me.

We end up going through C-Pat and E-Pat... Choi, Cedeno, Pie, Bobby Hill, Derrick May, Brooks Kieschnick , Gary Scott, Jason Dubois, Devid Kelton, Kevin Orie, Julio Zuleta, Brant Brown, Tyler Houston, Doug Glanville, etc. etc. etc.

For the love of god. Next time we have a top prospect, just trade him while everyone else still thinks he's good. PLEASE. I'd have done Pie for Griffey Jr. in a heartbeat.

1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 6, 2007 11:15 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Ryan Theriot?
Just saying.

phat

by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Theriot
Another case of piss poor judgement. He was the 3rd round pick... in what a 50 round draft? And they didn't think he was a major league ballplayer last year?

They wasted a good 2 or 3 years of this guy's career by forcing him to switch hit in the minors... so his batting average and on base % looked like crap.  

1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the Cubs miss the playoffs
I would imagine a new GM may be doing just that.  Hendry has got to be dumping in his pants about now.  How does he explain to new owners; the excessive backloaded deals and the money spent on Zambrano, if they miss the playoffs in a crap divsion?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Sep 6, 2007 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

pie
i dont see whats so special about him . . . look at guys like pence and braun, not much older than him . . .

by CZ38 on Sep 6, 2007 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There has been one common thread
amongst the Cubs top prospects over the years; they can't hit and they have no plate discipline.  Hendry ran the farm since 95 and has been the GM for the last 6, and there is clearly an issue with how they scout talent and or an inability to improve strike zone discipline with prospects.

The one guy who has discipline (Theriot) was almost given up for dead, because he didn't qualify as a 5-tool guy.  Bottom line, they can't keep missing the boat on these guys.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Sep 6, 2007 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep
This organization's failure to produce decent position players over the last 20 years is an absolute disgrace.

by cubsbak on Sep 6, 2007 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A combination of factors
The Cubs tend to stall out lots of the position players in the minors by advancing them too slowly and then they over compensate by super rushing other prospects before they are ready, playing them sporadically, causing them to lose their confidence, and essentially having them viewed as "failures" before they ever are really given a chance.   This is done for two reasons.  The first is an incompetent series of general managers that tend to bring in veteran ball players because they are the "safe" choice.   Dempster is a perfect example of this.  He's the closer because, as a veteran, you have an idea as to what you are going to get.  Not great, but not bad either.  Its the mid level ceiling and the mid level floor.  

The second is, frankly, having one of the worst type of fan bases in baseball.   (And this is the big problem).   The Cub fan base tends to be overly demanding, impatient, and believes the hype, and then when the prospect doesn't immediately play to the level of the hype, they turn on the player and the complacent Cub management then dump the player.

by frustratedfan on Sep 6, 2007 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd like to see
how many prospects move up and succeed for other teams compared to the Cubs. I'm not saying the Cubs deal with their prospects well. I just don't know the objective story of other teams in comparison.

I'll bet a lot of the teams have similar stories.

phat

by phatass on Sep 6, 2007 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not the teams that contend
the majority of the time.  They all have built a core of players that have come up through their system - even the Yankees.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Sep 6, 2007 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK, I'll bite
I can't say I know the lineage of every current worthwhile Yankee, but aside from Jeter, how many home-grown contributors do they have?

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 6, 2007 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They built strength up the middle
with Posada, Jeter, Williams and a knock out closer in Rivera.

I know Williams is done, but he contributed for many many years.  When you have the two most important fielding positions (catcher & SS) develop to be stars out of your farm, you have something to work around.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Sep 7, 2007 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Several...
Posada, Jeter, Bernie Williams, Cano, Melky Cabrera, and Soriano were all home grown (though Soriano and Cabrera aren't current Yankees).  Pettitte, Rivera, Wang, Chamberlain, and Hughes are home grown as well.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 6:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep
And I hear that fan base is known to be even more demanding and impatient than Cubs fans.

I'd love to know all these great prospects that Cubs fans have run out of town because they're too demanding and impatient.  What a crock.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 7:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

as i've said before...
...i'm in the heart of yankee country and most people have no idea how high the expectations are for that team to win.

it's bordering on ridiculous.

"If you'da been thinkin you wouldn't 'a thought that." ~~ "Squints" Palledorous

by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

don't forget...
...phillips and duncan are also products of the yankee farm system.
"If you'da been thinkin you wouldn't 'a thought that." ~~ "Squints" Palledorous

by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The objective of the comparison:
The teams competing in our division have routinely developed all-star type position players to plug into their line-up.... while we haven't produced diddly squat.

And the same guys come right up from the minors and are successful right away from day 1. While our guys rarely achieve any success.

1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just heard on ESPN that the Cards
 are like 17-9 since Ankiel returned. Jesus. Where's our spark? Are we even above 500 since Soriano came back?

by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 12:02 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Baseball Tonight
Just said Ankiel had been taking HGH up until it was banned, according to a report.

I can handle the Brewers winning the division. If the Cardinals win the division on the back of Rick F. Ankiel, even I might jump off the ledge. :)

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 7, 2007 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

JUST BEAN HIM ON MONDAY
He's a head case... he'll forget how to hit, just like he forgot how to pitch.
1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damn right
Someone's got to start going inside on this bum. If this were 25 years ago, he'd be knocked on his ass, and then he'd stop crowding the plate and being able to handle pitches on the outside corner.

Today, of course, beaning him after the streak he's been on would probably earn the pitcher a suspension. The game is weighed way too much toward hitting, and this ridiculous run by a former pitcher is a perfect example.

"Have Keith Moreland drop a routine fly. Give everybody two bags of peanuts and a frosty malt, And I'll be ready to die." -Steve Goodman

by danimal15 on Sep 7, 2007 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let Ohman do it
two birds with one stone
1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

HAHAHA!
EXCELLENT IDEA!

LOL

It is SEPTEMBER, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Sep 7, 2007 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

current
yankee contributers from their minor league systems are jorge posada, robinson cano, derek jeter, joba chamberlin, phil hughes, and ian kennedy.

by ARAM FOR MVP on Sep 7, 2007 12:05 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
That's not a bad nucleus.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 7, 2007 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Yankees are now
6.5 games back. I'm not saying the Yankees haven't been good, obviously.

But what matters is right now. The Cubs are tied for first and the Yankees won't likely win their division (they might get the wild-card, though).

phat

by phatass on Sep 7, 2007 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where do you think
the Yankees would be if they were in the Cub's division?  I'll take a wild guess and say they would be up by double digits playing with lessor competion.

Also, I do believe the are leading the wild card, and will likely be dangerous in the playoffs.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Sep 7, 2007 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, you're probably right
I had an attack of argumentativeness.

In my defense, it's very difficult to guess any team's abilities in a different division.

phat

by phatass on Sep 7, 2007 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the Yankees were in the NL Central...
...their magic number would be in the single digits.
Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not really.
The story says Ankiel stopped using HGH when it was banned from baseball. ;-)

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i really
think we all need to settle down with this "the season is over" kind of stuff. i know a lot of us are stressed right now, and i bet the ucbs players are as well. lets just ride this thing out, and see where it goes. hopefully we can play well in pittsburgh and get back on track.

btw, i love this site. Al, you are great, and I look forward to reading your reports everyday

by ARAM FOR MVP on Sep 7, 2007 12:19 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Actually, this thread seems to be free
of a lot of that kind of talk. Kind of refreshing, because talk like that isn't Pollyanna-ish. It's the truth.

I can't wait for tomorrow's game.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 7, 2007 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ethier only signs for men ?
Ethier is gay.

Why ?   Because every guy who loves women....loves more and more women.

Only a gay guy would limit himself to 5 admirers.

by coral on Sep 7, 2007 12:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If this whole Ankiel thing is true
  1. This feel good story of the year is completely gone
  2. Ankiel should be suspended for 50 games (well past this season)
Was anyone else thinking that he was doing too much sense he returned? And this guy is not big at all!
Now that he is back, play Matt Murton!!

by Chanman25 on Sep 7, 2007 6:24 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

As another poster said (and I agreed)
time for some pitcher to knock this guy on his ass.
"Have Keith Moreland drop a routine fly. Give everybody two bags of peanuts and a frosty malt, And I'll be ready to die." -Steve Goodman

by danimal15 on Sep 7, 2007 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing says 'get in a guys head'....
...like a beanball. Now it doesn't have to be in the melon like Sammy's was on Easter Sunday in 2003, but look how tentative he was at the dish when he came back after that injury. Of course, then came the toe, then the cork and we all know what happened at the end of '04.
Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

JUST BEAN HIM
That'll be his kryptonite
1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wind Blowing out yesterday & Lou or Joe ???
Here on the East Coast I only get the WGN and games on MLB.TV. All I heard yesterday on MLB.TV was the wind was blowing hard out all day by Bob & Len.

Certainly guys need rest, but with the wind blowing out where were our bats ??? on the bench.

A-Ram , Murton (who hits a lot of wanring track flys), Soto, Floyd. They were on the bench.

Lou has been speaking in the post games about the wind always blowing in. Well the wind was blowing yesterday and we had our singles line up.

I sit and often wonder where the Cubs would be right now if Joe Girardi was leading the ship.

by parrotinct on Sep 7, 2007 8:03 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Blame the manager
Ramirez needed a day off and it was a day game after a night game so Lou rested him.  Murton and Floyd aren't hitting for any more power than Ward is (Ward's slugging significantly better than both of them).  And I assume you're not advocating player either one in center.  And Soto, who's the third string catcher at this point, played the day before.

This team hasn't hit for power all season and I don't think it's Lou's fault.  Lou's not responsible for the significantly diminished power from Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Jones, Floyd, etc.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree...
Right now, the two best options offensively in RF have been Ward and Murton.  But they are two of the worst options defensively (along with Floyd).

The lineup was built with the expectation that Lee, Soriano, and Ramirez would each be 30+ HR guys.  Right now, Soriano is the only one fulfilling that concept (given that he missed about a month of the season, he'd be right on 30 HR pace).  And the secondary guys (Floyd, Jones, and Barrett) were supposed to provide SOME power.

Unfortunately, Jones and Floyd have provided basically no power to the lineup, and 2 of the big 3 haven't been up to snuff in the power department either.  When 4 of the 5 haven't hit for expected power and the one who has hit for power has been injured, it's hard to blame the manager.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Soriano's diminished too
He hit 46 bombs last season in cavernous RFK.  He had 38 a few years ago in spacious yankee stadium (for righties).  I don't think it was unreasonable to expect at least 35 from him this season at Wrigley (that is, after all, his career average/162 games).  His diminished power isn't as bad as, say, Lee's, but it's still disappointing.  I remain completely mystified by this team's power drought.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Soriano not really diminished...
last year was an anomaly compared to his career norms.  He's a 35 HR guy in ~660 at bats per year.  This year, he has 22 HR in 480 AB.  That would average to 30 HR, which I'd suspect is well within normal expected deviation.  If he was on pace for 35 at this point, he'd have 25 and not 22.  Unless you're a robot, that's pretty normal deviance.

It's only compared to last year that Soriano is really incredibly underproducing.  If the expectation was to match last year's production, then I'd argue the expectation was unrealistic.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In other words...
I think Soriano's low HR totals so far this year are due to a combination of normal random variance and missing a month of the season rather than underperformance.  And he could still easily end up with a pace that would have put him at 35 HR had he been healthy (i.e., hit 7 HR in the rest of September).

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

great analysis, bababenti
"Have Keith Moreland drop a routine fly. Give everybody two bags of peanuts and a frosty malt, And I'll be ready to die." -Steve Goodman

by danimal15 on Sep 7, 2007 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was just looking at Lee's
career numbers. If you throw out his career best year in 2005, his OBP is about the same and his SLG is as well. His HR's are down and therefore his RBI's. # of K's the same. We got spoiled by his '05 season. That apparently was an anomaly. We are getting a "typical" D Lee season from him.
"When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches."- Ron Santo

by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed...
thought it'd be nice to have the improved average AND the improved power, rather than trading the power for the improved average (which is what essentially has happened.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also
His BB's are way down, along with steal attempts. He is basically less of an overall threat than he used to be.
"When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches."- Ron Santo

by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually...
his BB are right on par for his career (averages 73 BB per year, and he has 64 BB so far this year).  His OBP is .86 higher than his average this year.  His career OBP is .87 higher than his career average.  So he's walking at almost exactly the same rate as his career average.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're right about his career BB's
I was seeing his BB's increase over his career until his injury in '06. Seems he was become a more patient hitter as he matured. Don't know why Lou doesn't try to have him steal more, though.
"When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches."- Ron Santo

by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Less steal attempts
because of his leg problems this year.
1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OH. Plus he's a dummy on the basepath
Remember how many times he got picked off in April?
1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He seemed to run ok
on his inside the park job! LOL Lumbering, yes, but e got around the bases pretty good.
"When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches."- Ron Santo

by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh. Ooops.
I thought this was one of the Soriano threads. A lot of replies on this one.

Lee's gotta pick his spots to steal.

And he's gotta start crushing those 1st pitch fastballs thrown for strikes... and stop looking at the called 3rd strikes.

1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You said it!
n/t
"When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches."- Ron Santo

by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not a manager
and I don't play one on TV, but he seems to be just what we need in the #2 spot in the lineup. If he hits some dingers and continues to hit 2B's, that's gravy. The problem is, we need Theriot to lead off so those dingers.doubles count.
"When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches."- Ron Santo

by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Based solely on this season...
I'd agree.  The problem is that right now we have no one capable/willing to hit #3 instead.  With Soriano preferring to bat leadoff, Lee is the best available alternative on this team.

Theoretically, Lee is the perfect #3 hitter.  He has power, yet can also get on base in front of the cleanup guy.

Also theoretically, this team should have been able to withstand a power draught from Lee, because Ramirez should have been able to pick him up, and our #5, #6, and #7 hitters should all have been stronger than the league average (picture Floyd from 2005, Barrett from last year, and Jones from last year).  Unfortunately, we've gotten a power outage from Lee AND our #4-7 hitters have underproduced.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree
Unfortunately, for some reason, the long ball has escaped us this season. I wonder if it's a direct correlation of Lou vs. Dusty? Lou-ball is more fundamentally sound compared to Dusty-ball. Not that we have seen it consistently this year, but we have scored more runs via walks and hits instead of waiting to hit 3r Hr's every game. Maybe next year we will be able to continue to score playing small ball and the HR's will come back. I have said on occasion that I personally think next year is our year, providing we get a couple more players. Th8is year is a pleasant surprise over last year.
"When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches."- Ron Santo

by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it is managerial...
I think Lou knows that hitting HR is still a good thing.  Of course, I have no real explanation other than managerial, so who knows?

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Other than the BB...
I completely agree.  He's still a threat at the plate this year, just a different type of threat.  Less power, more OBP.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

His slugging
is boosted by his high average, which is higher than his career mark.  As you say, his HR and RBI's are down, which is why it's fair to say that his power numbers are down.  So in that sense, it's not a typical season for him.  This season he's become a lot more of a Mark Grace-type hitter (high average, lots of doubles, not as many HR) and a lot less Derrek Lee-type hitter (HR's and RBI's).

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dempster worst game - not yesterday
I had the privlidge of watching Dem give up that 4 run lead to Mets back in June in the 9th inning

That is the game to remember.

Ohman was on fire in the 8th striking out the side and the Dem blew up.

Its hard to loose a game like yesterday when you know you left your best releif pitcher on the bench. Marmol.

However excluding Wednesday when was the last time we won a walk over game ???

by parrotinct on Sep 7, 2007 8:07 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

True, but at this time,...
with three weeks to go and due to the effect of yesterday's loss in the standings, this meltdown by Dempster was more damaging.

BTW, several posters note that Dempster was a victim of a bad pitch and the wind. True in part. His pitches were high even when the target was low. He had a bad day. He's still a good closer.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Soriano's 3R HR
Saw how low the pitch was on Sportscenter this morning. It's wonderful that he's a great "bad ball" hitter, but with the count 3-1 and the ball that low, he really should have taken that pitch and kept the inning going. It's great that he hit the HR, but in the long run that is going to be a ground ball and possible DP much more often than a hit or a HR. Am I wrong about this?

by park on Sep 7, 2007 8:42 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes
You're wrong about this.  Soriano should not be criticized for hitting a 3-run homer.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not really.
Soriano is a low ball hitter. He golfs those pitches. So, expect fly balls instead of grounders when Soriano hits a low pitch. I'm still surprised that pitchers still throw low to him. Pitch him a high fast ball or a slider and you have a better chance to put him out. He has no discipline at the plate.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

how dare soraino...
hit a 3-run homer on a bad pitch!

sheesh!

"If you'da been thinkin you wouldn't 'a thought that." ~~ "Squints" Palledorous

by rm463 on Sep 7, 2007 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unbefrickinglievable
The guy drives in all four runs and he gets criticized for doing it on a low ball.

by lancaster99 on Sep 7, 2007 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

bad pitch homer
I think Keith Moreland once got fined after he ignored a take sign and hit a homer.
"Have Keith Moreland drop a routine fly. Give everybody two bags of peanuts and a frosty malt, And I'll be ready to die." -Steve Goodman

by danimal15 on Sep 7, 2007 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry
to have offended anyone by wanting to discuss Soriano's approach. Did you notice that I said it's great that he hit the homerun? That wasn't sarcastic. Believe me, I am glad he can hit those out of the park. But had he flied out on that pitch, I'm sure nobody here would have criticized him.

by park on Sep 7, 2007 9:34 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You're right...
it's just a tough sell to bring up Soriano's bad approach when the result was such a good result.

People seem to forget that it's precisely Soriano's free swinging mentality (i.e., chasing bad pitches in hitters' counts) that has resulted in so many strikeouts and bad outs in big situations.

The question is whether Soriano can be effective if he had better plate discipline.  Of course, there's really no reason to speculate, because he's not likely to develop good plate discipline anytime soon.  He is what he is at the plate.  He's going to have some impressive hits (HR and 2B) on bad pitches, and he's going to have plenty of bad outs.  It just comes with the territory with the guy.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup
It's like the guy who throws up the long 3 before any passes are made and it goes in. You're glad it went in but it makes you nervous.

by park on Sep 7, 2007 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's wrong
with striking out if you hit 40 bombs a season and steal 40 bases?  A strikeout is not the worst thing that can happen on a baseball field.  Ask last year's Cubs who never struck out but scored the fewest runs in the league.  Soriano's approach is fine when he's hitting 40 HR and stealing 40 bases like he did last season.  Unfortunately this season his power numbers and his stolen base numbers are way down.  

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Strikeouts are not that bad if you're...
...in the top 3rd of the league in runs scored.
Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So you ignore his career .839 OPS?
and .327 OBP?  Those aren't great.  He does manage to average 35/35 per year, but in the other situations he's pretty mediocre (hence his OPS is just good, not great, and his OBP is mediocre).

I'd argue that he's succeeding in spite of himself.  His approach at the plate is really poor, and if he had better plate discipline he might be even better.  Imagine how many bases he'd steal if he took the walk in 3-1 counts rather than swinging wildly.

Soriano is an anomaly.  He does pretty well at the plate in spite of very high K rate and very poor BB:K rate.  But he'd actually be an elite hitter if he could establish some plate discipline.  As is, he's probably overvalued for his HR/SB stats, relative to his overall performance at the plate.

As I said, though, it's an irrelevant debate, because he's not likely to become a hitter with good plate discipline anytime soon.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree
"When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches."- Ron Santo

by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure
It would be great if he could morph into Albert Pujols and start getting on base more (he's certainly paid enough) but as you say that's not going to happen.  His approach, while not ideal, can certainly help a ballclub if he's hitting 35-plus home runs and stealing 35-plus bases.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...
but the whole point of the thread was that his approach is not a good one and thus limits his productivity.

It doesn't mean he's not still fairly productive, ti just means he could be even more productive.  That's all.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fairly productive?
I think that's selling him a bit short.  A lot of guys would kill for his "limited" productivity.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, he's definitely better than average...
and he's downright elite in terms of HR/SB combo.  But I'm referring more to his overall productivity at the plate as opposed to his 35/35 numbers.  His .839 OPS is just fairly productive, and the .327 OBP is mediocre.  However, his .865 OPS for this year is pretty productive, though not elite.  So he's actually outperforming his career norms at the plate.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In other words...
the numbers tell us that Soriano is not a lead-off hitter. Can someone send those statistics to Lou?

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He also
scores over 100 runs a year and usually drives in more than 90 (although he'll fall short of those numbers this season).  A typical Soriano season is more than just fairly productive.  Sure he doesn't get on base enough but he gets a ton of extra-base hits and scores a ton of runs.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

At the risk of getting on a huge tangent...
Runs and RBI are very team-dependent.  For example, Soriano is basically just as productive this year as he's been in his career, yet his RBI are down.  This is a function of the fact that he batted 3rd/5th for Texas and batted in a NY lineup that had pretty productive #7-9 hitters.  His runs are actually right on pace with his career norms.  But again, those are driven by where he bats in the order.  In 2004, when he batted 3rd, his runs were way down compared to when he was the leadoff man

When measuring his productivity, I look at his OPS, which is the most highly-correlated with actual run production of any stat.

But I think this is a semantics argument about the relative value.  Again, the point of the thread is that Soriano has a terrible approach at the plate.  His talent lets him still be productive, but he'd be more productive (and maybe somewhat worth the money) if he actually improved his approach.

People were busting the guy's chops for suggesting Soriano had a bad approach on that pitch.  Had he had a better approach, the result on that pitch would have been less productive (walk instead of HR).  But the results of his AB over the course of a season would probably be more productive.

But, again, as we've both noted, his approach isn't going to change.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

slight edit...
OPS is the most highly correlated among the simple stats.  I'm sure there are better metrics out there, but of all the things on a typical stat sheet, OPS is the best predictor.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Too bad
they play baseball games on baseball diamonds and not on stat sheets :)

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He also
had 95 RBI hitting leadoff for a terrible Nationals team last season.  And he also scored 119 runs.  He didn't exactly have Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez driving him in over there.  2004 was an off-year in which his numbers were down across the board.

While you denigrate his approach, it's also an approach that has allowed him to be productive in the major leagues.  Not fairly productive.  Productive.  

You can crow about OPS all you want, but you're basically just saying that you're unhappy with his OBP because his slugging is very good.  While team dependent to a degree, runs and RBI's gives you a window into how a hitter performs with men on base and how well a hitter runs the bases.   Soriano's runs and RBI's have stayed pretty consistent over the last 5 years (with the exception of 2004, an off-year in which is OPS was also down significantly) even though he played for 3 different teams in 2 different leagues.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd argue...
it's the raw talent, not the approach, that has allowed him to be productive.  I instead the the approach is keeping him from being even MORE productive.  Which is, in fact, the point of the thread.  The semantics arguments aside, the approach is keeping him from being more productive than he is.  With his talent, if he had a good approach at the plate, he'd be even more productive.  That's all this whole thread was about.  Arguing about exactly how productive he currently is is completely aside of the point of the thread.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He is what he is
I don't see how you separate the "approach" from the hitter.  Sure, it would be great to turn him into Albert Pujols or Barry Bonds, who have better "approaches" (i.e. they're better hitters), but that will never happen.  He's a free swinger who hits a lot of extra-base hits and scores a lot of runs.  That's who he is.

by cubsbak on Sep 7, 2007 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I completely agree...
which, I believe, was the basic conclusion of my first post in the thread: it's pointless to debate whether or not his approach will result in improved outcomes, because he is who he is.  

This whole thread has since become an exercise in arguing on the margins ("fairly productive versus productive", definition of productive, etc), when the reality is that we agree on the key points: (1) his approach is not generally ideal; (2) despite this, he remains productive; (3) though he's productive, it very well could be that a better approach would make him more productive (like Pujols); and (4) it doesn't really matter because he isn't likely to change his approach.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Would've much rather had
Carlos Lee playing LF for 6 yrs $100 mil,

Than Soriano for 8yrs $136 mil.  

But all in all... no left fielder is worth $16+ mil/yr.

1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Me too
I wanted Carlos Lee big time. I felt his HR's FOR the Cubs instead of against them would have been well worth it. Instead we get a low OBP guy as a leadoff hitter. C Patterson was the same way, he could never get it in his head to use his skills and just try to get on base and steal 2nd instead of trying to become Sammy Jr.
"When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches."- Ron Santo

by BigJohnAZ on Sep 7, 2007 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually... not in reality
but, could you imagine having Adam Dunn in LF... batting from the left side of the plate. At the #4 slot, between Lee and Ramirez?

Dunn's $10 mil/yr is more in line with what Carlos Lee and Soriano SHOULD be getting paid.

1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

chiming in...
Probably the CW was that "we have an HR hitter coming up in Ty Colvin."

Now its, "We have a HR hitter coming up in Vitters".

When Sori has EVERYTHING clicking, he is an upgrade from the future sumo wrestler, CLEE.

But we didn't get that this year.

- sigh -

It is SEPTEMBER, and we're STILL IN IT! YES!

by TheEman on Sep 7, 2007 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

last winter when the cubs were shopping
pinella wanted an athlete, and the cubs needed a leadoff hitter (or thought they did because they were unaware of what theriot could produce in that slot). carlos lee is niether an athlete or a leadoff man. because theriot has shown that he can now be a leadoff doesn't really make it fair for us to question that acquisition without remembering what the club was looking for at that time.  i agree after seeing him that sori is not a leadoff hitter, but his speed AND  power were what pinella wanted, so despite how much i'd like to have dunn or c-lee's homers (in light of aramis and derek's #'s this year) we have what we have for specific reasons that we need to keep in mind

by philadelphiacub on Sep 7, 2007 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

PUT THE MAGIC NUMBER BACK UP NOW!!!!!!!!
I am convinced that Dempster would have gone 1-2-3 if Al hadn't removed the magic number from the sidebar.

Who's with me people??

MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 7, 2007 9:40 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

But...
... they won the day I took it down (Wednesday).
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Sep 7, 2007 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably the worst part about yesterday...
Was the wasted excitement of Pat and Ron's call on Soriano's homer. I don't know if it is just that I've been forced to listen to more games this year since I'm finally in the "real world," but Pat and Ron seem to be getting better as the season goes on.
As has been said here many times, Pat is the best. But I think even lately it's gotten better, especially with each home run call. For my money it's the best home run call in the game today.
I know there was a lot of complaining about Ron and how he is such a fan, but I think that him being that way completely fits the broadcast this year.
I think I'm just rambling because I don't want to talk about the game yesterday. That and I haven't talked about this with anyone who really understands. No one else really gets when I talk about how I get goosebumps when I listen to Pat and Ron call a big home run. Of course, I have friends that are fans of teams like Boston, so that is to be understood.

by hawkeyenation on Sep 7, 2007 9:57 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Okay....
Not the worst part, but the worst part I care to talk about. I'm taking the approach that I hope the players take: yesterday didn't happen. It didn't happen for me because I was on a call at the time of the homer. See, so it didn't happen...right? Ha. :)

by hawkeyenation on Sep 7, 2007 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Our guys need a hypnotist!
I say... make Pie, Cedeno, Fontenot, Soto, and Murton all wear Iowa Cubs caps to the park... and they'll all start hitting .350+ again.
1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 10:38 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Or maybe someone
to whack the Pirate Parrot with a 3-wood at tonight's game (ala Randall Simon with the Milw sausage in '03).
Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

THE SEASON STARTS TONIGHT !!!
After the last 2 years if you were told that on Sept 7th the CUBBIES were going to be tied for 1st place would you not have signed on in a heart beat.

The season starts tonight!!!

The Cubs control their own destiny !!!

Hopefully they play smart / efficent b-ball !!!

15 & 8 over the next 23 should get us in & finally the schedule is in our favor

by parrotinct on Sep 7, 2007 10:53 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed...
Maybe it will take 15-8, maybe not but they need to step it up a little.

Even Lou said 1 more hot streak.

Hey, the clubhouse is loose, guys still appear to be having fun, no one is uptight.

Time to back to what they were doing in June and July.

Leading off and playing short, TheRiot; batting 2nd and catching, Mr.OBP, Jason Kendall.....Do it Lou!

by blackhawk24 on Sep 7, 2007 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're Damn Right
Put all the silly superstitions away, (hint: they haven't worked in 99 years anyway), and if you don't have the stomach for the next 23 games, you may as well grab the knitting needles and get to work.

The time is NOW.  The season indeed starts NOW.  This is what it's all about.  I may not be Dane Cook but damnit, it's time to realize that there is only ONE October.  Here we come.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. -- Lee Constantine Elia, 1983.

by krummy12 on Sep 7, 2007 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cubs will make the World Series
I can pretty much guarantee that the Cubs will make the World Series. I booked a trip to Hawaii before realizing that it was the week of the World Series. And I have tickets to two of the games!
You can't quiet THE RIOT

by TipsyMcStagger on Sep 7, 2007 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So does that mean that you have two tickets
to the WS for sale? Enquiring minds want to know. ;)
There are 3 things in my life which I really love: God, family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.

by cubsfan4life on Sep 7, 2007 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We'll see...
That trip might have to be delayed a couple of days. ;)
You can't quiet THE RIOT

by TipsyMcStagger on Sep 7, 2007 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We've already seen the beginning of a collapse
And it will only get worse from here. Those of us who know this organization know what's going to happen. It's not an organization of "great runs" and "magical finishes". Each and every day it will be a different player who let's us down. I predicted when Dusty was hired that after his contract was over (or sooner), he would limp out of Chicago going"what the hell happened?" It looked so promising in '03 but then we all know what happened. If I have to hear one more person give Hendry and positive credit for anything, I'm goin to vomit. The farm system is a joke compared to other teams. Believe it or not, I desparatley want the Cubs to win, they just keep rippin my heart out.

by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 11:09 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Advice to you.
From the band Green Day: "Wake Me Up When September Ends".

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So you think signing DeRosa, Lilly and
Marquis was a bad thing to do? Did we really improve this much without these guys? You can't have it both ways. You can't put all the blame on him for everything that you don't like about the Cubs.

by billybuck on Sep 7, 2007 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ps. I've had to watch he FLORIDA MARLINS
win two championships in the last decade. It's inexcusable that the Cubs, with their fan support, have won NOTHING.

by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're right. It's all Hendry's fault. The Cubs
don't deserve a loyal fan like you. The Marlins are clearly a better choice since they have won two championships in the past decade.

by billybuck on Sep 7, 2007 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Enjoy your rainbows and cotton candy day
I'm sure in your baseball world everything is wonderful

by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're the one that called it "the beginning
of the collapse". That sounds fairly definite so I'd just move on if it pains you that much. It's not all rainbows in my world, but your doom and gloom is a bit over done.

They might not win the division, but I consider it rather fortunate that we still have meaningful games in Sept. I still like their chances to win the division. Soory if that's too rosy for you.

by billybuck on Sep 7, 2007 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fortunate to still have meaningful games in Sept?
Are you happy with that? Is it wrong to want something more? Sure this team rarely makes the playoffs but I want, and expect, a World Series title. If the freaking Marlins can win it, there's no reason the cubs can't. Except BAD MANAGEMENT!

by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm only trying address you statement that
" the collapse has begun and it will only get worse from here". I'm really curious how long that you have been passionately following the Cubs. I say passionately because you definitely sound like you're really upset by the latest loss, as we all are.

by billybuck on Sep 7, 2007 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've been a Cub fan for 37 yrs.
I would rank that loss in the maybe top five worst I've seen. Definitely top ten.

by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My pessimism is not just on yesterdays loss
but I definitely feel better than I did about 24 hrs. ago.

by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Although I want to rip Ankiel a new one
Didn't he legally obtain the drugs because he had a prescription. And wasn't HGH legal, prior to 04?, as long as it used to assist recovery from injury which may not been his intended purpose but what he can technically claim?  Someone please prove me wrong so I can further my reasons to hate the Redbirds.
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry

by Jayo525 on Sep 7, 2007 11:33 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

We can't really know for sure that
he stopped using them when they became banned from MLB. That my friend is enough to hold atleast some animosity towards them.
There are 3 things in my life which I really love: God, family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit.

by cubsfan4life on Sep 7, 2007 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OUR ASSISTANT GM HAS BEEN FIRED!
Pirates fire Littlefield

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/09/07/pirates.littlefield.ap/index.html

1-RUN GAMES = 19-20 | EXTRA INNINGS = 2-7 | HOME = 38-35 | updated on 9/6

by SackMan on Sep 7, 2007 12:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Should spark a series victory against the Cubs
Wow, and he won the same number of WS titles as Hendry...

by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Littlefield should send Dusty
a thank you note.  If it wasn't for the Cubs in '06, his Buccos would have been last in the division last year and they may have canned him on '06.  Dusty saves the guy's job but he doesn't send us any talent this year...though he did take Itzuris off our hands.
Prince Fielder...he is neither.

by LAcarl519 on Sep 7, 2007 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

When the Cubs win or lose
Do the lows seem LOWER then the HIGH we get when they win?

It does for me. I hate when they lose!!!

Aug 15 - Ted Lilly walked by the lineup card and said to nobody in particular "I can't believe I'm batting 9th again".

by mweil on Sep 7, 2007 12:40 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Dealing with it.
I think we can all agree that yesterday's loss was a heartbreaker.  We can also remember a few others, like scoring 6 runs in the top of the 7th at Philly to take the lead, then giving up 7 in the bottom of the 7th.  Or the meltdown at Shea, etc.  We can also remember Ramy's walk-off against the Brewers (how did the Brewers' fans feel about their closer that day?), Lee's GS against the Sox, DeRo's GS against the Braves to break a 6 game losing streak, etc.

The point is:  every baseball team (and its fans) will have its highs and lows in a season -- hopefully more highs than lows.

I am going to try to do the same thing that the players do:  lament the loss for a few hours after the game, then drop it.  The sun rose in the east this morning, bringing with it a brand new day and another chance for the Cubs to win a game.  They are a good (not great) team, and I have confidence that they will get enough wins to win the division -- and that is all that counts right now.  I won't give up on them if they don't give up on themselves.

(Thanks to Al for running this site so that I can have a chance to vent a bit.)

"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007

by DeRoMyHero on Sep 7, 2007 12:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I haven't run any numbers,
but it seems that HRs have been down across the whole league this season. Is that true? That'd explain at least some of the Cubs apparent lack of power.
"Mine, mine, says the squirrel to the transformer, unclear on the capacities of electricity." -Dean Young

by Kegler on Sep 7, 2007 1:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Cubs, STL and MIL records
Cubs play Florida, Pit, Cin, Hou and Stl in final weeks of season. Record this year v. such clubs = 22-25.

MIL plays Cin, Stl, Atl, Hou, and Pit in final weeks of seaon. Record this year v. such clubs = 29-23.

STL plays Cubs, MIL, PHI, HOU, PIT in final weeks of season. Record this year v. such clubs = 29-27.

"These are terrible times, and I shouldn't joke about them." --Warren Zevon

by ExNorthsider on Sep 7, 2007 1:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think that's correct...
however, the Cubs' decrease in HR is much more drastic than the league decline.  So there's more to it than just league-wide decline.

by SouthernCub on Sep 7, 2007 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just threw up in my mouth a little
I think this weekend is HUGE. Everybody thinks we should have a big weekend based on the Pirates overall record. But the Cubs aren't playing well and the Pirates have given us problems.

by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

we really need 2 of 3, if not a sweep
i like the pitching match-ups in all 3, even hill v. gorzelany.  if zambrano wins sat, it will be like 2 wins because it will really give the cubs a boost

by philadelphiacub on Sep 7, 2007 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for that
Debbie Downer!
MMMMM...Mannys corned beef and a latke

by Kinky Reggae on Sep 7, 2007 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just need to vent
I live in the middle of Brewer-land.

by Mapmaker on Sep 7, 2007 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget that MILW plays
the Padres 4 games also. That changes their season record to 29-26

The Cards also play @ARI 3 games and @NY 1 game. That changes their season record to 42-36.

I know that we've struggled with Cin,Hou,PIT, and FLA, but we definitely have a much easier schedule that STL and MIL. They have teams in the thick of the playoffs to play like ARZ, PHI, SD, NY and ATL. That should definitely favor us, plus STL has to play us and MILW. They have the toughest schedule. They have 15 games left with teams above .500

by billybuck on Sep 7, 2007 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good catch-- I totally missed those two series
I think the real key down the stretch is Zambrano. The Cubs will live or die based on which Zambrano shows up for the last month.
"These are terrible times, and I shouldn't joke about them." --Warren Zevon

by ExNorthsider on Sep 7, 2007 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ouch!
A prediction based on those numbers would put the Cubs in third place when the season ends. Thank God you still have to play those games. The real outcome may be different from the projections.

by Fraggin Judge on Sep 7, 2007 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

DD?!
I haven't seen her since high school!!!
"Mine, mine, says the squirrel to the transformer, unclear on the capacities of electricity." -Dean Young

by Kegler on Sep 7, 2007 2:03 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This place is a good place to vent, right?
OK, so the Cubs lost yesterday.  I was there.  This was only the third time I've ever been to Wrigley.  The first being
September 20, 1998
on Sammy Sosa Day at Wrigley to celebrate his 66 home runs.  Great day, Cubs lost. (Damn you, Bret BLEEPing Boone.)

The second time, on September 2, 2002.  I only had time to catch the first game of the doubleheader, which of course, once again, the Cubs lost.  During my drive back to Wisconsin, I got to listen on the radio as the Cubs scored 17 runs in 5 innings off Ben Diggins and Andrew Lorraine, en route to a 17-2 win in game 2.  

So, it was no surprise to me that my third trip to Wrigley would have a similar outcome.  For that, I apologize and I am happy to inform that I will not be attending anymore games the rest of the season.

On to the second part of my rant... old people.  Now, baseball is the national pastime and it's great to go see a game with your father and/or grandfather, right?  For me, a big rousing NO.  

I had the "pleasure" of going to the game with my mother, father, grandfather and grandmother (who is probably the biggest Cub fan of the four of 'em).  I had the "pleasure" of sitting next to my grandfather.  Wasn't so bad... until Dempster blew the game.

You would have thought someone shut his pacemaker off, he was livid (and I'm sure many people were) but this is where I start losing it... he complains for the whole three hour ride home (I-90 west was a bitch!) about how Dempster blows every other game he's in and that the only time he gets his saves are when the team is up by like 6.  Whenever it's one run, he ALWAYS loses the game.  I got to hear roughly eight times about the six run lead Dempster blew to Colorado in the 9th when the Cubs came back to win it.

Biting my tongue the whole way home and running straight for the bottle of Hennessey... I've come to this conclusion, old people are crazy.  I apologize to all the old people out there, perhaps it's only the ones that are related to me, but they are freaking nuts.

Grandpa, if you're reading this... Dempster has only blown three saves all year, you can't get a save unless a lead is three runs or less, he is the closer so they WILL bring him in every time.  No, Lou should NOT have had someone warming up as soon as Dempster comes in and as for the Colorado game, for the love of God it was 5 runs, not 6 and it was Eyre and Howry not Dempster, so please just shut your trap and relax!  

Wow, I feel much better... thanks for listening.  Go Cubs, let's start righting this ship and hope the Brewers and Cardinals sink faster than the Edmund Fitzgerald...  

by eamuscatuli1881 on Sep 7, 2007 3:09 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If you are "the Cooler"...
...maybe you should atttend some Brewers and Cards games. Eh?
You can't quiet THE RIOT

by TipsyMcStagger on Sep 7, 2007 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

RE: This place is a good place to vent, right?
VERY funny. I have been there. It's like when you are 60+ years old you forget every Dempster save and they ONLY remember the losses.

It drives ME CRAZY too. I prefer watching Cubs games alone for this reason I can not stand dumb commentary!

Aug 15 - Ted Lilly walked by the lineup card and said to nobody in particular "I can't believe I'm batting 9th again".

by mweil on Sep 7, 2007 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would venture
to say that half the people in here yesterday are well under 60 and all they remember are the losses too. Definitely drives me crazy too.
I love this team!!!

by sue369 on Sep 7, 2007 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Media's Yankees fetish
Here's the second headline now on CNNSI's MLB site:

"Yankees' rookie to face Royals."

What's the next largely irrelevant headling they can put up there focusing on their favorite team? "Yankees' batboy pours cup of Gatorade for Jeter"?

"Have Keith Moreland drop a routine fly. Give everybody two bags of peanuts and a frosty malt, And I'll be ready to die." -Steve Goodman

by danimal15 on Sep 7, 2007 3:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

"Jeter Waxes A-Rod's Taint"
Now there's a headline.
You can't quiet THE RIOT

by TipsyMcStagger on Sep 7, 2007 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LMAO!!!
I did actually laugh out loud when I read that!  

by eamuscatuli1881 on Sep 7, 2007 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

HGH is not a steroid.
Anti-aging research has been somewhat successful with HGH therapy. I don't see HGH as a problem. I predict, within 10-15 years, HGH may be useful for...all of us.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Sep 7, 2007 11:38 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Al, tidy scorecard
You keep a small font scorecard. Wow. I didn't think someone could squeeze all those names on 1 line like you did, and it saves crossing names out or using semicolons.

by cubby23 on Sep 8, 2007 10:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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