Thursday Morning Headlines
- Rick Telander explains!
I made the point that [Andre] Dawson deserves to be in the Hall of Fame -- and he will be by next year, mark my words -- but that my protest needed to encompass even the straight arrows of yore, such as him, because the sown doubt from clown-farmers Bud Selig, Donald Fehr and the say-nothing players themselves had made even the greatest, most trustworthy heroes suspect.
If no one can be proved guilty of taking performance-enhancing drugs, no one can be proved innocent. It's an equation.
At any rate, once I read the column to Dawson, he got it.
"I understand you now," he said. "I know that regardless of what I've accomplished, it doesn't count. Because nobody is trustworthy."
I guess. I'm not sure I agree with that point -- in effect, what Telander is saying is that because steroids are used now, they make everyone guilty across every era -- but at least he's explained himself. I wish he had put it better the first time. And this was a poor way of making a protest -- if, as he says, Dawson will get in next year (and implying he'll probably vote for him), why is everyone suddenly trustworthy again because a year's time has passed?
Food for thought.
- The Brian Roberts deal is going to happen. No, really. Seriously. This time for sure. Phil Rogers has the lineup card all filled out, too:
If the Cubs get Roberts (.377 on-base percentage and 50 stolen bases last season), Piniella will shuffle the batting order, likely dropping Alfonso Soriano from first to third. It could look like this: Roberts, Ryan Theriot, Soriano, Aramis Ramirez, Kosuke Fukudome, Derrek Lee, Geovany Soto and Felix Pie.
It could look like that, but probably won't. (And I'm figuring this will start the firestorm of debate that flares up here every time I remind people that Alfonso Soriano's not going to be dropped out of the leadoff spot.)
- Goose Gossage says that if he were playing today, he'd probably have tried steroids. Nice thing to say the day after you're elected to the Hall of Fame, Goose. And this doesn't make sense, either:
"I've been in that situation, trying to prolong my career with the money that was out there to be made at this time in baseball. I can't sit here and say that I would not have done it," he said. "But had I done it, I'm going to face the consequences. And the consequences are, that whether they belong in the Hall of Fame or not, the records can't stand."
"The records can't stand"? How so? The numbers are what they are -- you can't start randomly eliminating numbers from the record books without ripping up the fabric of history. Example: take Barry Bonds' HRs away (or some of them, anyway, say, many of them after 1998, which is the time when he supposedly started doing steroids). What happens to the results of the games where those HR were hit? What if Bonds hit a HR, or several, that won games for the Giants? What if those HR put the Giants into the playoffs some of the years they made them? Do you take those postseason games out of the books?
You see the problem here, I think.
- Mike Downey shows that he understands counting stats! He's got 45 Hall of Famers (and says there are a "couple of dozen" more, and that doesn't even include all the pitchers) listed who have fewer hits than Harold Baines, who got "only" 28 votes this year. As if that alone would qualify Baines for the Hall. And then, there's this nonsense:
Bert Blyleven is not a Hall of Famer. That is a fact as well as an opinion. I have friends and colleagues who all but crusade for Blyleven's candidacy, year after year, citing his very impressive shutout and strikeout counts.
Yet I cannot bring myself to deem Blyleven any better or more worthy than Jim Kaat, Tommy John, Jack Morris and so many others who have failed to gain admission to the Hall. I can't find the discrepancy in their careers.
Hmmm. Blyleven's not qualified? That's a "fact"? Let's see; you can't figure out why a man who's fifth all-time in strikeouts and ninth all-time in shutouts isn't more qualified than Jim Kaat (33rd and 103rd in those categories, respectively), John (47th & 26th) oir Morris (31st and 134th)?
Actually, I think Tommy John ought to be in, for career longevity and the fact that a famous surgery is named for him, and Kaat's a marginal Hall of Famer for longevity and reinventing his career a couple of times; Morris is borderline. But Blyleven's head and shoulders above all three of them -- and likely, rubbed Downey the wrong way during his career, as he did to a lot of writers, which is probably the reason he isn't in yet.
There. Let me wipe my fingers off (after typing about all of that, they need that!) and you can have at it.
0 recs |
169 comments
Comments
Why
by HectorVillanueva on Jan 10, 2008 9:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
and that's a fact!
by ballhawk on Jan 10, 2008 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking about this, too
It's just they're confined by a few major factors:
- Word counts
- Writing for a broad audience. You try writing for casual fans aged 9 to 90 while also appealing to the die hards that spend every free moment thinking about the game. (And do it in 850 words.)
- When writing an opinion piece, as opposed to simply reporting the news, they have to take a strong stand on one side of an issue. Straddling the line and presenting both sides evenly doesn't sell papers.
There are a few good sports writers in Chicago, and a bunch that are merely adequate. Only a few are truly bad.
by MikeJ on Jan 10, 2008 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
King Fraud
In today's column he employs one of his favorite devices for hiding his dearth of substance: the ridiculously long list. He devoured a huge portion of his word count by rattling off names like Johnny Mize and Pie Traynor and George Sisler, names very few of his readers will know. He could have made the same point in a single sentence. If he truly believes his point he should have arrived at such a belief after considering the alternatives and discounting them. Gee, recounting that process would be a good way to fill the space no longer occupied by a list. Acknowledging what should be an obvious weakness of his point (e.g. "I know hit totals aren't everything and I realize guys like Mantle, Gehrig, and DiMaggio aren't in Cooperstown because their careers looked like Baines' career.."). After that a better writer might reveal his earlier statement as a feint and fall back to a slightly weaker position which should represent the real point he wants to make (e.g. "..I'm just saying that this is one of the ways people can get into the Hall and Baines beats out an awful lot of good players including some of the great hitters.."). Or he could go over the top and make a strong statement that discounts the weakness he's just acknowledged (e.g. "Even though hit totals aren't everything, they represent an indispensible part of the game and I think anyone with the sheer number of hits Baines has should be enshrined automatically even if he contributed nothing else to his teams.."). His arguments are routinely insulting to his readers. I have to stop or I'll get worked up.
by Copter OBob on Jan 10, 2008 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Downey
What's funny is that I use to like Telander back in the old "Sportswriters on TV" days, when he was the "young, cool one." He was good in Sports Illustrated, too, and I remember being excited when he moved to the Sun-Times. I read him fairly religiously for the first few years, but it took that long to fully realize that he had absolutely nothing to offer.
by MikeJ on Jan 10, 2008 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Writing a daily column is a lot different
by TR on Jan 10, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt
He just skims the surface.
With one-sentence paragraphs.
Sometimes less.
And if he does dig in, it's always from a pure grumpy-old-man standpoint.
Things were better and pure in my day.
He is...a curmudgeon.
by MikeJ on Jan 10, 2008 2:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sportswriters on TV
Oh how I miss Jerry Holtzman.
by Copter OBob on Jan 10, 2008 4:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Downey
DmL
by dmlichte on Jan 10, 2008 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good hodgepodge of stuff this morning
- Well at least now I can see some logic in what Telander is trying to do. Not sure I agree with his approach but I understand.
- Brian Roberts? Are the Cubs trying to get him ;-) Phil Rogers is a moron. Even if (which I don't believe) Soriano is moved out of the leadoff spot, Theriot will not be moved up to #2 and Lee down to #6. Lee as #2 makes more sense than what Rogers is spouting. Hard to believe he gets paid for that. I guess under his math that all players are worth +1 so it doesn't matter where anyone hits.
- I was a big Baines fan but he is not HOF-worthy. Rarely if ever was he really considered a feared, top of the league hitter. Very solid for a long time but not in the Dawson or even Rice category. I'd put Dale Murphy in before Baines too. Just counting hits is a stupid way to look at it. There are lots of players like Fred McGriff who would be in if you just start looking at counting stats. The one player that I was surprised got so little support was Tim Raines. I wasn't sure he would get in on his first try but he is far away from it right now.
by rlpete on Jan 10, 2008 9:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Baines got only 28 votes for a good reason.
Number of seasons with 30 HR or more: 0
Number of seasons with 100 RBI or more: 3
Number of seasons hitting .300 in 500+ AB: 3
Times appeared in top 10 of MVP voting: 2
Times leading league in major offensive category: 1 (SLG, 1984 AL)
He just wasn't that great. He was a very good player for a very long time. And without the DH, with his injuries, he'd likely have had to retire ten years before he did. Number of games played in the field in last 10 years of his career: 24 (23 of them at age 33, only 1 after that)
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 10:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good synopsis
I don't think Murphy had a good enough career for the HOF either but Baines definitely didn't. I don't think you should get in on just longevity. There needs to be a pretty good peak period. I'd even take someone like Albert Belle over Baines. At least Belle was dominating for a few years.
by rlpete on Jan 10, 2008 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
another reason why the DH is an abomination
That's why I believe big Papi shouldn't be an MVP candidate. There's this thing called defence.
OK, OK, I'm ranting...
by blackhawk24 on Jan 10, 2008 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Your point is taken...
But David Ortiz is ten times the hitter Harold Baines was, in virtually every category. If there were no DH, he'd play 1B -- maybe not very well, but well enough, given his bat.
5 straight years in the top 5 of MVP voting. Three straight years of 35+ HR, 110+ runs, 100+ walks, 115+ RBI, and 158 or higher OPS+.
Baines never came close to any of those numbers.
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Baines
Baines could have gone beyond a very good career to a great career IF he had injuries hampered him. But that's probably the case with many other players.
Harold, Thanks for a very good career Harold. I hope you saved and/or invested the 23 million dollars you earned in your career.
HoF rankings, BAINES/SANTO/MURPHY
BLACK INK: 3/11/31 (AVG HOF 27)
GRAY INK: 40/147/147 (AVG HOF 144)
HOF STANDARDS: 43.6/41/34.3 (AVG HOF 50)
HOF MONITOR: 66.5/88/115.5 (AVG HOF 100)
by DrCrawdad on Jan 10, 2008 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Word to your ...
by DrCrawdad on Jan 10, 2008 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rogers' math
by Copter OBob on Jan 10, 2008 12:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Telander and Rogers.....
Al, everytime I see people move Sori out of the #1 spot it humors me, it could happen but wont. Dero could play SS but wont. Lee will NOT HIT 6th.....he should have coleagues tell him that what he is writing is stupid. Theriot is the perfect 8 hitter for this team, not 2 hitter.
Thankfully this site only has a few dopes but when I got to some trade rumor sites its hilarious when they post lineups.
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 9:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Applying Telander logic
Thanks Rick, for opening my eyes. I had no idea that the best way to approach this was to just distrust everybody. No room for individual thought here, just lump 'em all together.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go get my pitchfork and torch ready for the next icon...
by ballhawk on Jan 10, 2008 9:48 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
LSA
by blackhawk24 on Jan 10, 2008 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
FYI To Everyone - New Piniella PodCast Out (1/8/8)
He mentioned that there is "one more (offensive) piece" that he needs, and that Hendry is working around the clock to get it for him.
I get the PodCast through a subscription through iTunes.
by initram on Jan 10, 2008 9:52 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hope there is
I'll reiterate: Marquis and Dempster in the rotation scares the living shit out of me.
by blackhawk24 on Jan 10, 2008 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I still think...
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well if you have some magic formula...
At this time, I may be more happy with the unknown than with the known.
3/5ths of a good rotation does not a champion make.
by blackhawk24 on Jan 10, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I Can't Agree More...
We've all heard that Hendry is going after (1) Roberts, (2) a RH who can play all outfield positions (like OF #4, thus pushing Murton), and (3) a veteran SP.
by initram on Jan 10, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't say, "I want a pitcher"
Zambrano
Lilly
Lieber
Hill
Dempster
(Yes, I know Hill is a better pitcher than Lieber, but I think that's how they'll stack the rotation up to start the season.) That's really not a bad rotation and ideally it leaves open some slots, especially in '09, but potentially this year as well for a rookie who proves he's ready.
In parsing Lou's words, I would focus on that "one...offensive piece" part, that they aren't looking for two. Maybe Lou thinks the RH-OF is not so necessary. I do think there is something to say for letting Pie hit LHP regularly and not committing to platooning him. But it's going to be ugly for a while.
by DGU on Jan 10, 2008 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't Be Surprised If...
The last I heard is that the Mets were interested in Marquis -- this goes back to an MLBTR note some weeks back.
Also, Hart has a legitimate shot at the starting role.
by initram on Jan 11, 2008 12:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure we can
If the current staff isn't believed to be strong enough to win (even if there's 10 candidates), it has to be improved. What's implied in "wanting a pitcher" is wanting one that is a notable improvement to one of the current 5 starting staff.
Of course Jim won't say this publicly, he's being respectful. Just like he didn't come out about a RF need until after Jones was dealt and Floyd was not picked up for the option.
From our standpoint, I think its safe to say we all believe the current rotation possibilities (with known commodities, not a minor leaguer that will come out of nowhere and pitch lights out through the end of October) will likely not cut it if we want to be celebrating at the end of October.
On press conferences, well I guess that would be the wrong platform to make that announcement. Though Lou will have one of his top 10 comments last year being the 35'-40' curveball comment about Ohman, he was ranting.
by blackhawk24 on Jan 14, 2008 6:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone...
by big_lowitzki on Jan 10, 2008 10:19 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
You don't trade the farm for a leadoff hitter and then have him bat anything other than leadoff.
Then again, Al is waaaay more "in the loop" than I am.
by Kornchex on Jan 10, 2008 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The lineup
Yes, Roberts has been a leadoff hitter in the past but his skills also would be very good in the #2 spot. In fact, he might be the Cubs best #2 hitter.
by rlpete on Jan 10, 2008 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Technically...
Dont get me wrong, i am not complaining or bashing the current players, i am just describing their at the plate performance and how it really translated into different spots in the line-up.
by HIGGY on Jan 10, 2008 2:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say Ramirez is a pretty solid #4 hitter...
Also, Lee was a pretty solid #3 hitter in the second half of last year, and in 2005 and 2006 prior to the injury. If his second half is any indication, he's ideal for the #3 spot again as his power returned.
What wey've lacked is a true leadoff hitter and a #5 hitter.
Ignoring the debate surrounding whether or not Soriano freaks out in the #5 spot, that's the spot he's best suited for. It'd take advantage of his power and his speed (he can run in front of the #6-8 hitters).
However, I don't think Piniella/Hendry are going to move him down. I think they see Fukudome (who SHOULD be a #2 hitter) as a #5 hitter. Thus, they think they'll have the following lineup:
Soriano/Roberts/Lee/Ramirez/Fukudome/Soto/Pie/Theriot
It's not necessarily the most sensible lineup, but it's what I think Lou will do. He likes splitting up his lefties and he likes speed at the top of the order.
by SouthernCub on Jan 10, 2008 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This may be
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Leadoff
by Fraggin Judge on Jan 10, 2008 7:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Flip Ramirez/Dome and Pie/Theriot...
A-Ram has admitted he feels more comfortable in the #5 spot. Fukudome likely bats second, unless we land Roberts.
By the AM radio reports in the last couple of days, it is looking less and less likely (30% chance)...
by initram on Jan 11, 2008 12:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My bad...
The misconception that the #2 hitter needs to be quick on the bases (allbeit Lee has good speed) isnt technically true. You need a guy in the 2 hole that will produce and get on base consistently to allow for your #3 to knock him around.
Now addressing what you said about the line-up. You are exactly right about Fukudome, with the addition of him we now have a true #2 hitter (but he will most likely not be used as such. He is not a number 5. We have a number 5, but he leads off. So, yes i would agree with you that in the current situation we need a lead-off guy and a number 5.
by HIGGY on Jan 11, 2008 7:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
hall of shame
by bernok on Jan 10, 2008 10:22 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Shockingly stupid...
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The real crazy thing
I would ask; experts at what?
by MPH73 on Jan 10, 2008 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Experts at...
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it.
Yeah, I'm going to keep banging this drum for a while.
by cwyers on Jan 10, 2008 10:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Raines will get in eventually...
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you might be right
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's an odd state of affairs...
You're absolutely right. It's just... odd.
by cwyers on Jan 10, 2008 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 4:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Al...I pointed this out yesterday elsewhere, but
Steroids have been around athletics for a long time. Long before Dawson's career began and even before the great Nolan Ryan's career began. Lyle Alzado began taking them in 1967 and said they were easy to acquire at numerous gyms across the country.
I mean no disrespect by this, but it's absolutely foolish to think that players that began their careers in the mid to late 60s through the late 70s are all innocent. It was these players that sat and watched the proliferation of steroids into the sport you and I both love. It was these guys who kept their mouths shut that you now blame the likes of Palmeiro, Sosa, and Bonds for.
The use of steroids prior to 1967 by athletes was also probably more than we'll ever know or want to know, but the fact of the matter is that by 1975 they were prevalent in all sports and used by as many athletes as use them today (actually, there are probably fewer who use them today because of testing). HGH was readily available at this time as well.
The point of this is that any and all players who began their careers after 1967 are due speculation about whether or not they used performance enhancing drugs. Every single one of them.
Did Dawson use? I have no clue. If the measure of whether or not someone used is if they didn't decline as you would typically expect then the answer is probably no, but that also means that former and current greats have taken them. It's a stupid way to measure whether or not someone has used steroids because baseball has proven that each and every generation brings with it a handful of stars, or more, that simply aren't your typical ballplayers in any way, shape or form.
Just because you like Dawson and haven't heard speculation doesn't mean he didn't use. It simply means the media is too stupid to realize that PEDs were prevalent in sports while Dawson played...while Dawson was still in high school or junior high for that matter.
The author you've been complaining about for two days has it right in my opinion. They all deserve to be treated on an equal platform and that means that they're all either guilty or not guilty since we sure as hell are never going to know the overwhelming majority of the players who have used these substances. I would prefer the author treat them as if they were all not guilty, but at least he's got it half right, which is 50% more right than any of these other members have it.
And before anyone tries to tell me I'm insane for saying Dawson may have used...read this again. I never said he did. I simply said it's foolish and irresponsible of anyone to assume that he didn't when we know for an absolute fact that steroids were prevalent in sports when he played AND that if you want to blame any players for how steroids became so popular in sports, blame these guys (Dawson, Rice, Gossage, etc) because they were the ones who closed their eyes and allowed it to take over the sport. Their errors were already completed by the time the likes of Bonds, McGwire and Sosa ever came around.
by Maddog on Jan 10, 2008 10:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Where's your evidence?
If you have specific evidence to cite, I'd like to see it.
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
PEDS in the Olympics
A survey was taken of Olympians in 1972 when steroids were banned. 68% of them admitted to using steroids in some capacity.
Of course, it was in the late 70s that the East Germans had a state sponsored doping program for olympians. It has been argued whether or not the athletes knew what they were getting as they were told that they were getting "vitamins". achem....maybe B12!
For that matter, in 776 BC Ancient Greeks were known to eat sheep testicles as a way to intake testosterone!!! If you put it that way, having a trainer inject you in the butt doesn't seem so bad!
by Ghost of Fred Merkle on Jan 10, 2008 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Olympics, OK.
That's a stretch.
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 12:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
an athlete is an athlete
by kylejo on Jan 10, 2008 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"you're"
I'm simply stating that steroids were a problem in the 60s and 70s for the Olympics. Athletes used them to enhance their performance.
That said, it certainly is conceivable for a baseball player to try them. The opposing argument would be what was alluded to below in that baseball players preached flexiblity more than muscle up until the recent years.
by Ghost of Fred Merkle on Jan 10, 2008 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben Johnson
During the US TRIALS for those same olympics, Carl Lewis was busted for using stimulants. The letter was all but issued to ban him from the Olympics. But the US decided to bury it and allow him to compete.
It was shortly after that when the Olympic committee itself control of the testing for each country's trials.
Interesting stuff.
by Ghost of Fred Merkle on Jan 10, 2008 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What was Lewis taking?
by SackMan on Jan 10, 2008 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Lyle Alzado's claims
As someone else said, the Olympics banned them in 1972. Do you think they banned them because they didn't think athletes were using them? Of course they were. If Olympians were using them, so were professional athletes. Remember, these guys have more money than amateurs.
The point is that they've been readily available for decades and athletes have taken them on a regular basis for that long as well. It's foolish to think that baseball players of that era weren't taking them. Were they all? No, but some certainly were yet that generation gets a pass and in my opinion, it was that generation that is far more responsible for the damage than this one. They're the lazy fucks who kept their mouths shut and turned a blind eye that allowed it to overtake the sport.
I'm not saying Dawson did steroids. I'm only pointing out that it's silly to assume he didn't when we know they were as readily available then as they are now.
by Maddog on Jan 10, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes... those Raider teams he played for
You think steroids played a factor into that?
There's absolutely no question that professional athletes have been taking PED's for decades. Just a matter of who they were, and how their use of them effected the outcome on the field, and the sporting league they played for.
Athletes are competitive individuals... they want to win... and sometimes will try new things to get an edge.
None of this is new in the large scheme of things.
by SackMan on Jan 10, 2008 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with that is...
Remember, these guys were travelling with teams and spending time in clubhouses all throughout the steroids era. They had frontrow seats for the entire thing, and they absolutely refused to confront what was going on, even after Canseco got busted and it was obvious something was going on here.
It's all well and good, and even true, to say that we'll never know what happened for certain in the steroids era. But that's at least partly the fault of the sportwriters who ignored the whole thing, and for them to play the sanctimony card at this late stage of the game?
This isn't honesty and this isn't good judgement. This is refusing to take account and pay for one's own sins - since you didn't do your job as the "fourth estate watchdog" like they taught you in J-school, you can't fairly sit there and lecture us on right and wrong. This really comes off like trying to get the players to take everybody's share of the blame for this. And it comes from people who have a share of the blame.
Before any of these guys feed us any more sanctimonious bullcrap, they need to write a piece entitled "How I Screwed Up Covering Up The Steroids Era, And Why." Each and every one of them.
by cwyers on Jan 10, 2008 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But do do we!
That, however, does not allow me to not have and express outrage.
Rick Telander has come out and say that no player from the 1980's and 1990s is beyond suspicion. That could be Dawson or Rice, Maddux or Schilling. Saying that no one is beyond suspicion and even specifically say names does equal a belief of use. Every player is a part of a larger era and what Telander is saying is that:
a.) the actions of the players during his era who used along with
b.) Dawson's and other player's inaction in dealing with the situation that was in their own clubhouse
has led to a situation where no one is beyond suspicion.
DmL
by dmlichte on Jan 10, 2008 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Point B, however...
- it WAS going on in clubhouses that Dawson (to use your example) was in during his career, AND THAT
- he ignored it.
But tarring ALL players with that brush isn't fair.
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tarring some players isn't either, Al.
These guys who say they didn't know what was going on are full of shit. Every one of them knew what was going on and almost every one of them shut their mouth. Did Dawson take steroids? Again, I have no clue. Did Dawson know people were taking steroids and not say a word and lie to us today about not knowing anything? Undoubtedly he did know. Dawson isn't blind or stupid so "I didn't know" bullshit doesn't work.
by Maddog on Jan 10, 2008 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember a time when "bulking up"
by flachimesa on Jan 10, 2008 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"bulking up"
So, although the PEDs are part of the reason for enhanced numbers, the training routines have drastically changed as well.
by Ghost of Fred Merkle on Jan 10, 2008 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Training has changed among many other things
by Maddog on Jan 10, 2008 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and the fact that the strike zone shrunk...
by cwyers on Jan 10, 2008 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Among others...
by SouthernCub on Jan 10, 2008 2:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
For what it's worth,
by Maddog on Jan 10, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And remember...
That meant they couldn't work out in the offseason, and that's one reason spring training is still six weeks long -- back then they NEEDED that much time to get in shape.
Now, of course, spring training brings in big bux for exhibition games. There's really no reason for 30+ games before the "real" season starts, except for that.
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 4:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's also a good chance for managers...
But yeah, 30 games might be excessive for that.
by cwyers on Jan 10, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Brian Roberts
by utcubby on Jan 10, 2008 10:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Leadoff spot...
Roberts should lead off. Period. Done. Nobody seems to be mentioning Derrek Lee hitting 2nd, especially if his power numbers are the same as last year. Fukudome 3rd, ARam 4th, etc...
by Hugest Canadian Cubs Fan on Jan 10, 2008 10:59 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
If you...
Dont knock other peoples opinion then give an opinion on a player to hit 3rd that youve never seen other than youtube.
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Soooo......
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 3:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wacka Wacka Wacka
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 3:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey maybe
by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Jan 10, 2008 11:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why did Dawson
As far as Roberts, would love him in the lineup just hate the fact that DeRosa gets pushed aside.
And I agree from previous post, to have Dempster and Marquis at the end of the rotation will not get it done.
by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Jan 10, 2008 11:53 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Probably
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Suggestion
If Gossage has such insight the day after he's elected, I'm a little curious as to see what his speech this summer will be like.
by JDay on Jan 10, 2008 12:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Guys, it's over.
The Cardinals have acquired Josh Phelps. Yeah, it's a minor-league contract. But that's just a ruse. They have acquired the final piece of the puzzle that will secure them the division.
by cwyers on Jan 10, 2008 12:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Good Morning Mr. Phelps,
by Mordecai on Jan 10, 2008 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
More likely to be of interest to Josh Phelps...
Hrm.
by cwyers on Jan 10, 2008 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The .351/.463/.649 ...
Phelps can catch, sort of. (12 career games.) Maybe that's what they want him to do, be a backup catcher.
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey don't laugh
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I stumbled across this internet article
by flachimesa on Jan 10, 2008 1:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Here's the key paragraph.
Exactly.
Take the vote away from the writers. Now.
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Heck yes!
by NO100 on Jan 10, 2008 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably right
This raises a question that I've thought about. If Blyleven had gotten 300 wins he'd be in. If he'd had the good fortune to play for some better teams he'd have his 300 wins, even if he put up the exact same stats otherwise. Surely the BBWAA voters (most of them anyway) realize this, yet they haven't voted him in. However, if a lesser pitcher got the magical 300 he'd get voted in no problem. Don Sutton comes to mind. He was approximately Blyleven's equal though in reality he was not as good. He didn't get voted in first ballot but he made it. Isn't that hypocritical? Do they really even care? Everyone with a brain sees this stuff and realizes it, so essentially they are marginalizing themselves, cutting their own throats. So I guess my question is how many more fiasco's like this and Jim Rice is it going to take before something is done and a workable system is put in place? My gut tells me that as fewer and fewer of the old timey writers cast votes and more and more of the stat oriented writers start voting that things will work out better.
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The reading comprehension here
It's sad that the guys who didn't cheat are lumped with those who did but unless you do a thorough investigation of everyone who played between 1975 and today, you'll just never know. Some are guilty, some aren't, but everything all of them did on the field is under suspicion.
And as for taking the vote away from the sportswriters and handing it to SABR - essentially a club anyone can join - really bad idea. Might as well hand it directly to all fans. And that's a really really bad idea.
by TR on Jan 10, 2008 1:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
What hurt was that Telander didn't cast a vote
by SackMan on Jan 10, 2008 1:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who was hurt by Telander not voting?
by TR on Jan 10, 2008 1:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When a guy like Dawson is trying to get in
That's like losing an election in your own backyard.
by SackMan on Jan 10, 2008 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If we do get Roberts, Lou can finally move Soriano
by SackMan on Jan 10, 2008 1:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, well, here's the thing.
There are better hitters than Soriano on the Cubs, and ones better suited for leading off from a runs maximization standpoint. But we're talking about Derrek Lee and Kosuke Fukudome, the guys expected to put up specacular .380+ OBPs. Brian Roberts is not Fukudome or Lee. And Alfonso Soriano is a better hitter than Brian Roberts.
Can we seriously stop obsessing over this?
by cwyers on Jan 10, 2008 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LSA!
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Has anyone who doesn't think Soriano will be moved stopped to wonder why the organization is pursuing Brian Roberts when we already have a second baseman and leadoff hitter? Could it possibly be that they realize our second baseman and our leadoff hitter could both be better utilized elsewhere?
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Moving Soriano out of the leadoff spot..
I don't know how everyone knows this to be a fact, but it is.
Just like more than 50% of the BCB community thinks Cedeno backing up Pie in CF is just not that bad of an idea.
by lemon20pie on Jan 10, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Soriano requests to leadoff
As to Cedeno being a back up CF, you've yet to post a solid reason as to why this will not work. Countless players throughout baseball history have successfully made the transition from one position to another mid-career. Most players move from left to right along the defensive spectrum as they move into the majors or the latter parts of the career. Please, make logical arguments with some support to them instead of simply calling people stupid. It's a waste of time.
by snley on Jan 10, 2008 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey snley
Another thing about these minimal players that have made the switch from one position to CF, is that the ball club that moves a player to CF feel that that players Offense will somehow minimize the growing pains of learning the hardest OF position. Which clearly, isn't the case with Cedeno.
It was a bad idea a week and and even worse now. Also, it'll never happen, so let's end the discussion.
by lemon20pie on Jan 10, 2008 6:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
CF is the most difficult OF position
by snley on Jan 10, 2008 7:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OK then
Do you really expect Lee to bat second? Do you think that Fukudome will bat second so then there can be 4 or 5 straight RH batters? Do you really think that Theriot will bat 2nd and then Lee or Soriano will be moved down to 6th which several people have posted here in recent days.
The most logical lineup and one that it appears Piniella would use has Soriano leading off.
by rlpete on Jan 10, 2008 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Logic would seem to indicate
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong answer
I'm talking real-life not formulas.
by rlpete on Jan 10, 2008 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't matter
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't matter what I think
We'll just have to disagree and see what happens if the Cubs acquire Roberts. I'm not arguing what the Cubs should do but rather what I see Piniella doing. I just don't see Roberts and Fukusome batting back to back and I surely don't expect Lee in the #2 spot.
by rlpete on Jan 10, 2008 4:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Understood
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I absolutely agree
Pie
Lee
Fukudome
Ramirez
Soriano
Derosa
Soto
Theriot
Again, this is best case scenario with every player playing at a high level. This could be pretty damn scary to opposing pitchers if Pie and Fukudome can contribute like we hope they can.
by McRipper on Jan 11, 2008 8:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pie is not a leadoff hitter...
But at this point, it would take a substantial leap forward for Pie to become a leadoff hitter. And I don't really see that being the best decision for his development or for the team.
by SouthernCub on Jan 11, 2008 8:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And FYI
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So to answer your question
Dome
DLee
ARam
Sori
etc...
And if you prefer you could swap DLee and Dome when a right hander is pitching in order to keep the precious L/R/L/R in order since we all know that and that alone is what wins championships!
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 3:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
preaching to the choir page
If someone wants to say "well Soriano was promised the lead off spot yada yada yada blech dlsflkfdsjfsdh" is one thing, but actually saying Soriano is a better choice is something I don't even bother with.
Roberts is one of the best leadoff men in the game, who works every count and does everything a lead off hitter should do, but yet there still are Cubbie fans who think Soriano should lead off. It absolutely amazes me.
by lemon20pie on Jan 10, 2008 6:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Roberts is signed
Soriano LF
Roberts 2b
Lee 1b
Ramirez 3b
Fukudome RF
DeRosa SS
Soto C
Pie CF
or thats what'd i'd do..
by Chanman25 on Jan 10, 2008 3:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
What'd I'd do differs from what I think...
I think Lou will go with this:
Soriano
Roberts
Lee
Ramirez
Fukudome
Soto
Pie
Theriot
With DeRosa filling in all over the place. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but I think that's what would happen if we got Roberts.
If I had my druthers, I might get crazy and try:
Roberts
Lee
Fukudome
Ramirez
Soriano
Soto
Pie
Theriot
Or, I might just go with DeRosa instead and go with what you posted. Ideally, I'd have Fukudome in the #2 spot, but I can't picture having my two LH bats at the top of the order together. Otherwise, I'd say:
Roberts
Fukudome
Lee
Ramirez
Soriano
Soto
Pie
Theriot
by SouthernCub on Jan 10, 2008 3:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
order
I like: Roberts, Sori, Lee, ARam, Dome, Soto, Pie, Theriot/DeRosa, Pitcher.
by KedzieKid on Jan 10, 2008 3:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Why not?
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Heck
Mind boggling!
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 4:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
HECK, as you say
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 4:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Um
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You answered your own question in that last line.
Sorianos career avg. Runs+RBI 200
Roberts career avg. Runs+RBI 161
Soriano looks to be a better leadoff producer to me.
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Because?
You're not going to start arguing that the Orioles have had great lineups now are you? ;)
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 4:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Another flaw
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 10, 2008 10:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So I am still right
Roberts career avg. Runs+RBI-HR 151
Soriano produces more runs from the leadoff spot.
by Hammer on Jan 11, 2008 8:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's not really support for your argument...
All you've shown is that Soriano is a better run producer than Roberts. That doesn't prove he should be hitting leadoff. It just shows he's a more productive hitter than Roberts. That answer would probably be the same answer in ANY spot in the order.
What would be a good argument is if you can show that the combination would produce more runs with Soriano at leadoff and Roberts somewhere else than with Roberts at leadoff and Soriano somewhere else. If it's the case that Soriano would produce even more runs lower in the order and Roberts would produce the same runs, then it probably makes more sense to move Soriano down.
Of course, as has been said numerous times by numerous people, this discussion is moot because it doesn't really matter what we think makes sense. It only matters what Lou thinks makes sense.
by SouthernCub on Jan 11, 2008 9:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Because Soriano is a terrible #2 hitter...
by SouthernCub on Jan 10, 2008 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To quote you...
Which part of that means he's only suited to lead off and not hit anywhere else? Of course we all are aware that the single most important thing a lead off hitter can do is get on base. It's more important in the lead off spot than anywhere else in the lineup. So again, how does what you're saying mean that Soriano should only lead off?
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cwyers where ARE YOU
Soriano is in fact, inbedded in stats, a better player hitting FIRST
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs are in fact
I guess that's what I care about, not whether Soriano get's his 40/40 or not. And the stats backing this up have been posted in another thread. The forest or the trees, take your pick.
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wheres the proof to back that up?
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 4:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 4:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't wait for the first reporter
by rlpete on Jan 10, 2008 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I trust a manager with baseball experience
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 4:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So then
What's the old saying about practice only makes perfect if it's perfect practice? Experience is great and necessary, but not all experience is beneficial. Using a nerdy computer model can help make experience beneficial if it isn't ignored.
I'm not asking for Lou to give up control of the team to Deep Blue. All I'm saying is that there is some truth to what the computer says, otherwise why would we have been discussion the ZIPS projections so much yesterday? I just want people to pay a little more attention to them and not so much worry about if Soriano doesn't get his Frosted Flakes in the morning he might decide not to play. Computers can be right too, and Soriano is a big boy, he can adapt.
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
IF so...
Computer or Dusty? I take Dusty.
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 4:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Change the title of that post to
then I dont have a problem. Dont state your opinion as fact Mr. Bernstein
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But
by rlpete on Jan 10, 2008 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lol
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Now you get to my point
As for the lineup, I really don't see Lee as his #2 hitter. Then I really, really expect that he will split Fukudome and Roberts. Why is the Cubs focus on a lefty infielder? Because Lou wants to balance the lineup. Based on that he won't stick two of them together at the top.
by rlpete on Jan 10, 2008 4:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We've been over all of this ad nauseum...
by cwyers on Jan 10, 2008 4:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And....
Im sure they are good but not close to perfect.
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 4:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There's nothing particularly special...
Computer projections of hitting are pretty good these days - you're talking between a 65-75% accuracy out of them. You're right that rookies are harder to project than established veterans, but not by THAT much.
The larger point is that major leaguers aren't sure things, either - players get injured, they fall off, they have career years. There's only so much faith I put in the projections, either, but that doesn't mean they aren't useful tools in evaluating strategies and player acquisitions.
by cwyers on Jan 10, 2008 4:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The projections are fun..
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Small sample size, but...
The Cubs were 4-5 in those games. They were 69-56 in all other games Soriano started.
In those nine games, Soriano went 5-for-36, with 1 double, 1 triple and 1 RBI; 3 walks and 9 strikeouts.
Yes, I know, small sample size and all that. But that's consistent with how he has hit other times when he's moved down in the lineup. While the computer models may show the Cubs a better team when Soriano hits elsewhere, the computer models do not take into account the fact that Soriano is a sucky hitter when he doesn't hit leadoff, for whatever psychological reason.
The Cubs are better off with Soriano leading off. It's really just that simple.
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 4:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Since I "made" most of those models...
by cwyers on Jan 10, 2008 5:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget the Dr. Lou factor
Yes, Soriano is a sucky hitter when he doesn't hit leadoff - I think most of us will agree to that. But what if he wasn't? What if Soriano did hit up to his capabilities from say the 4 or 5 hole? Assuming it's guys like Roberts, Lee, and Dome ahead of him in the order, Iit's safe to say his RBIs would increase a good chunk, isn't it? And wouldn't this be good for the Cubs?
So yes, based on what's happened in the past, Soriano hitting anywhere but leadoff is a bad idea. But I'm not here to talk about the past (sorry - couldn't resist). But IF the Cubs get Roberts, then at least we have a legitimate alternative at leadoff. And IF Lou can get inside of Soriano's head, spend some quality one-on-one time with him during spring training, maybe he can get Soriano to understand that the Cubs could be better with him hitting lower in the order.
Look - this isn't like Steve Sax, Rick Ankiel, and that catcher (the name escapes me at the moment) who couldn't make routine throws. Those are real psychological problems that are probably well beyond Dr. Lou's reach. But batting farther down in the order shouldn't be an insurmountable problem. And if it would benefit the team, I gotta believe it's at least on Lou's radar to explore it during spring training. I think he gave it a trial run last season, but quickly pulled the plug, wisely realizing that mid-season usually isn't the best time to be experimenting.
First things first - all this back-n-forth banter is pointless (though enjoyable) until there's a viable alternative to Soriano leading off, i.e. Cubs trade for Roberts. Assuming that happens, then it's up to Lou - is this something he wants to tackle or not. He's got to be thinking about it, and my guess is he will work with Soriano and see how it goes.
If it works out, I think we can all imagine what that could mean over the course of the season (and post-season). And if it doesn't, then we're certainly no worse than last year. We've already added Dome to the lineup. And even if it's not leadoff, I'm sure we can find a productive spot for a hitter like Roberts in the lineup.
by ballhawk on Jan 10, 2008 8:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are looking for...
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 8:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OMG - Life imitating art
Good call on Knoblauch. And for all you old-timers out there, Steve Blass might have been the first to gain notoriety for throwing malfunctions.
by ballhawk on Jan 10, 2008 8:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw Blass' last major league game
Blass had absolutely nothing. He threw the last five innings, gave up nine hits and seven walks, and clearly had no idea how to find the strike zone. Sad, really, for a guy who only two years earlier had won 19 games and finished 2nd in Cy Young voting.
Oh, and the catcher you were thinking of? Mackey Sasser.
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 10:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops, mistyped.
Get a load of the Cubs' pitching line -- Burt Hooton threw a 16-hit, nine-run (five earned) complete game.
by Al on Jan 10, 2008 10:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mackey Sasser
And, well said.
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 10, 2008 10:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What was cut and dried
by pageian on Jan 10, 2008 4:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My biggest resistance...
If he moves out of the 1 spot, Ill be OKAY. I would prefer it not be to the 5 spot where he will most likely have a rookie in Soto hitting behind him.
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 4:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Soriano either provides instant offense
I know we have been through this over and over, and I have stated my case for Soriano to move down and tried to explain in rational terms why.
When it is all said and done, let's just see what Lou does if they get Roberts. I will predict, Soriano may start the season at leadoff, but he will end up hitting in another spot the majority of the games.
by MPH73 on Jan 10, 2008 6:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, if you go ahead and ignore...
And if it's strikeouts that bother you... well, then by all means leave him leading off. Why? Well, the main difference between a strikeout and an out on a ball in play (other than the double play opportunity) is the ability of an out on a ball in play to advance the runner. By letting Soriano bat with less runners on in front of him, you minimize the negative impact of his strikeouts.
Strikeouts don't really bother me, so that doesn't really matter to me. If it matters to you, there you go.
by cwyers on Jan 10, 2008 8:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Strikeouts don't really matter to you?
You're reasoning for Soriano hitting lead off is because you'd rather him strike out at the top of the order as opposed to in the middle of the order, right? You'd rather him hit HR's with nobody on, correct?
OBP means nothing to you? Working counts and being a threat to steal with the middle of the order up doesn't mean anything to you?
That's what I'd look forward to seeing with Roberts if he becomes a Cub and inevitibly leads off: Working a long AB and even if he made an out, it took the pitcher 9 or 10 pitches to retire him. If he got on, the pitcher is in the stretch, where pitchers aren't as comftorable and have him throw over there 3 or 4 times and slowly be more cautious of Roberts than the hitter and grooves one for one of our studs in the middle of the order. Someone like Soriano.
Another thing to think about if Soriano hit 3rd, is he'd be in a spot where he'd see more fastballs. Eveyone knows Soriano's weakness is staying off the low and away slider or anything off speed and down.
by lemon20pie on Jan 10, 2008 9:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is where we disagree
Maybe I am making this too easy, but I like to have the guys with the high OBP, speed and lower slugging ability hit at the top and the guys with the high slugging, hit in the middle.
In the end, this is exactly what I think Lou will do because the lineup will present greater challenges to opposing pitchers.
I respect everyone's opinion and mine is pretty clear, let's just see how things develop.
by MPH73 on Jan 10, 2008 11:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Soriano has done well in the past ...
3rd: 630 AB, .260/.310/.452, 92 RBI
5th: 583 AB, .268/.312/.513, 107 RBI
His average is lower than when he hits first but not his RBI. So it is not a given that he cannot bat lower and be effective. The important thing is to get a true leadoff man if you are going to move him down in the batting order.
(I'm with you, BTW, MPH73.)
by Fraggin Judge on Jan 11, 2008 6:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If he's gonna hit 30+HRs
Soriano has it in his head, that he'll see more fastballs if he hits in the leadoff spot. I say that's bunk. Pitchers will pitch to him the same, regardless of where he is in the order. It's up to him to be patient and put them in a count where a fastball is predictable.
by SackMan on Jan 11, 2008 8:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bad idea
by rlpete on Jan 10, 2008 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What happened to Soriano in CF?
by snley on Jan 10, 2008 3:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Guess you didn't watch Cubs baseball
Soriano in CF = not good.
Soriano in LF = still not good, but better than CF
The man either doesn't know where the wall is, is deathly afraid of the wall, or doesn't give a crap enough to make a play at the wall.
On the plus side, he's got a cannon for an arm. But, he's got to charge those hoppers in order to throw anyone out. He muffed quite a few of them with an opportunity to throw out a runner. But, in a somewhat ironic twist, some runners decided to try and take an extra base because Soriano muffed a hopper... then he threw them out. :)
by SackMan on Jan 10, 2008 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I slightly disagree...
scared of the wall? i agree
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was referring to when a LF has to
He muffed a handful of those with runners on base. I know, I sit in 209.
I'd imagine that's why they finally moved him to the OF from 2B... he's not a very good fielder.
by SackMan on Jan 10, 2008 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gotcha
The new outfield should help a little.
by Hammer on Jan 10, 2008 4:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Morning laugh.
by Fraggin Judge on Jan 11, 2008 6:11 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

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