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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

Wednesday Morning Headlines

As befits a holiday week, there's ... just ... not ... that ... much ... going ... on.

So I'm going to post just two headlines here, and let you have at them.

  • Today's ESPN.com debate on Hall of Fame worthiness is between Larry Stone and Phil Rogers on the merits of Jim Rice. My vote on Rice: No. Rice had a fine rookie season (he would have won the ROY in any other year; he lost it to his teammate Fred Lynn), and after that, I would judge that he had six seasons that could be called "HoF-dominant". His career numbers aren't as good as Andre Dawson's (more walks, but fewer HR, steals, runs, hits, RBI, and wasn't as good a defender - 25% of his career games were as DH), and after age 33 he had three mediocre years and then retired. (As usual, Rogers gets the facts wrong, saying Rice retired at 34 -- he was actually 36 in 1989, his final season.)
  • The Cubs official website actually wasted an entire page on this Carrie Muskat profile of Shawon Dunston and what he might expect from his first year on the Hall of Fame ballot. If you believe the article, most of his credentials rest on the "Shawon-o-Meter", the sign held up in the bleachers showing his batting average. He'll need 5% of the vote to even stay on the ballot past this year. Dunston was a popular player, but despite his lengthy 18-season career, not a very good one -- his lifetime OBA (.296) resembles Neifi Perez' (.297). Oh, and Carrie? It's the Smithsonian Institution, not "Smithsonian Institute", and the Shawon-o-Meter isn't "enshrined" there, it's in its archives; here's a little more information from one of the actual creators of the Shawon-o-Meter, which I found in about 30 seconds of googling. Amazing what you can do when you do a little bit of research before you write.

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Dunston in the HOF...
only Muskat could seriously write complete sentences that contain the words "Shawon Dunston" and "Hall of Fame". How do I get her gig? I excelled in my creative writing class in high school too.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 2, 2008 11:02 AM CST reply actions  

Did not read the column.
That out of the way, is there by any chance a Moronic Basepath Decision Hall of Fame?  That one, Dunston could reach in a heartbeat.

I still cringe at the number of innings he ran the Cubs out of during his career.

by MN exile on Jan 2, 2008 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Or...
... how about a Throws Past First Base Hall of Fame? Mark Grace made Dunston look good for years.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 2, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions  

How about
the Rally Killers HOF? He'd be a charter member there...
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 2, 2008 2:08 PM CST up reply actions  

A charter member of the Rally Killers Hall of Fame
would have to be Ron Santo.  If you're old enough to have seen him play then you know it was almost uncanny how many times he'd ground out or worse, ground into a double play late in a close game.  I love the guy but it got so bad we'd actually groan when he'd come up with the game on the bases.  

I was amazed that it was his Cub record for walk-off homers that Sosa broke to take the all-time team lead.  I don't remember him ever hitting a game winner.  I remember Banks, Williams, Hickman, Hundley... Jose Arcia for godssakes! but never Santo.  And I wasted an amazing amount of time watching the Cubs when I was little.

by TR on Jan 2, 2008 4:53 PM CST up reply actions  

OK, Joe Morgan fan...
I too lived through the Cubs in the 60s and why do I NOT remember all of this negative-Santo data that you bring up?  Why do I just remember all his great heart and tremendous play at third base on what had to be one of the worst fields (crowned) in the national league.  You speak with surprise that Santo had some great career numbers...

Be sure to submit your findings to the Veterans Committee before Santo's name comes up for a vote next year.  If ever Santo faded late in a game, it might not of had anything to do with his diabetic condition?  But just go on bashing him.  

Again, I don't recall a history of choking by Santo...but there clearly must be a group of people trying to keep him out of the HOF that do.  I am sure you can submit your video library to them.

I can't wait for 2008!

by LAcarl519 on Jan 2, 2008 5:34 PM CST up reply actions  

This crap again?
His career BA + SLG with RISP was .724. With no RISP it was .735--the drop of .011 is hardly statistically significant, and certainly not enough to merit a rally killer label.

Pick a few random HOF 3B and compare (via Retrosheet)

Robinson, Brett, Schmidt, Boggs--all had bigger drop-offs with RISP. Were they all rally-killers too?

by bison on Jan 2, 2008 6:03 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't know anyone my age who
grew up watching the Cubs that doesn't have a laugh about Santo's lack of late inning heroics.  I don't care if you told me stats show he was the best of al time with RISP - I would have to believe a lot of that damage was done in early innings.  Me and many people I know have the image of Santo plodding toward first as the opposition completes a 6-4-3 double play in the eighth or ninth inning.

He was my favorite player and I think he should be in the Hall of Fame.  Just sharing a memory of his uncanny ability to break our hearts late in games.

by TR on Jan 3, 2008 1:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Memory can be tricky.
Santo, career: .277/.362/.464
Santo, career, close and late: .281/.373/.483
Santo, career, 2 outs and RISP: .271/.409/.465
Santo, career, 9th inning: .272/.365/.516
Santo, career, 7th-9th: .279/.370/.480
Santo, career, tied game: .270/.354/.441

I can go on if need be. The point is that Santo performed right around his career norms (maybe even a touch better) in close and late game situations.

I would suggest you learn to truly interrupt all stats before using any selective stats. -- cubswin

by cwyers on Jan 3, 2008 11:14 AM CST up reply actions  

Statistics can be tricky.
Yes, I can see by your numbers that overall in his career, Santo performed reasonably well in the situations you describe.

But you're too young to have seen him play. Frankly, I recall many situations like TR is describing myself, situations when if he could have just gotten a hit the Cubs might have won a game, or a series, or...

Well, you get the idea. Statistics can tell you a lot, but they can't tell you everything. Do I have specific games to list? No, I don't. I just have the memories of a 13-year-old kid whose heart was broken too many times.

I trust you see the difference.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 3, 2008 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

I understand your thoughts Al
and recall many of the ground ball double plays in crucial situations myself.  One thing the stats don't tell you, is the importance of the opponent or game in which he built those statistics.

It sort of reminds me of a lot of the stats we saw in 07.  The numbers show the team did fairly well in clutch situations, but your eyes told you something a bit different.  A lot of it goes drilling down further in the situations a hitter failed or succeeded, and the stats just can't do that.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 3, 2008 11:57 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't doubt in the least...
...that there were plenty of times Santo came to bat in a key situation and didn't come up with a hit. The stats even pretty much say that. A success rate of .285 is a failure rate of .715. Even for the best baseball players, their failures outnumber their successes. All of them, at some time or another, will let you down.

I have no doubt that those failures are more meaningful emotionally in late innings and close games. But I think it's patently unfair to compare Dunston and Santo as "rally-killers" without some sort of context here. (Although, to be fair to Dunston, it's not like he suddenly got worse at the plate in late, clutch situations either. Insert your own wisecrack here about how that would be hard to do if you're Shawon Dunston.)

I would suggest you learn to truly interrupt all stats before using any selective stats. -- cubswin

by cwyers on Jan 3, 2008 12:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I understand exactly what you're saying.
This is the difference between approaching baseball emotionally and statistically. The two can tell you wildly different things, and BOTH are true, in their own context.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 3, 2008 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Valid point
n/t
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 3, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Never saw Santo
play, but I saw Dunston shatter many a Cub fans hope with a whiff in the clutch. He was fun to watch in the field and the "Shawon-O-Meter" was amusing and all, but he was a rally killer par excellence. I can't speak to Santo's record as a clutch hitter, but there those here who can and I will defer to their wholly apt abilities to do so.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 2, 2008 7:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Shawon was...
... the apotheosis of a Cubs farm system product. He destroyed all those 16-year-old pitchers in Brooklyn but once he started swinging and fielding against other extraordinarily talented professional kids he found he'd have to actually, you know, learn how to play the game. Which, of course, he didn't, considering he was being tutored by men in the employ of the Chicago National League Ball Club. I loved Shawon. He was a non-pariel hustler. He brought his own brand of joie to the field. But he wasn't any ballplayer. Billy Beane would have said he looks good in blue jeans but not at shortstop. Great memories? Yeah. Hall of Fame? Hell no.

by 100yearsofineptitude on Jan 2, 2008 10:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Is Carrie trying to...
...write humor?  If so then great job!  I don't think Dunston needs to wait for the call, but maybe Carrie can do a follow-up piece where she shows up at Dunston's place and videos the day for him and we can watch as he agonizes over the phone ringing (not), just like that QB who didn't get taken in the first round a year or two ago.

He threw the ball hard to the other infielders, and sometimes to the Vendors working the box seats down the 1B line, LOL....

I loved Dunston, he was one of my favorite Cubs, but let's not distort/corrupt my memory of his career by claiming that he might get that call.  Trust me, the calls that he gets on the 8th are far more likely to be telemarketers than that HOF.

by DudeVf11 on Jan 2, 2008 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

not so sure...
His career numbers aren't as good as Andre Dawson's

Not so sure that Rice's career numbers are not as good.  Dawson has a career OPS of 119, and a career line of .279/.323/.482.

Rice has a career OPS+ of 128, and a career line of .298/.352/.502.

Average lines:
Rice: .298/.352/.502, 30 HR, 113 RBI, 97 R, 4 SB, 52 BB
Dawson: .279/.323/.482, 27 HR, 98 RBI, 85 R, 19 SB, 36 BB

Dawson had better speed and better defense.  But Rice appears to be the better hitter, with Dawson  having more longevity.  

by big_lowitzki on Jan 2, 2008 11:09 AM CST reply actions  

If you are going to make that argument
I think you have to compare them as if they retired at the same age.   I don't know if it would help Hawk's case but as most players he tailed off in his last few years with the Red Sox and Marlins and that hurt his career line and his  "per season" stats.  I think you are comparing them using two different scales.  

Another decent way may be take their 10 best years and compare those.  
mlb.com's historical stats page is balking on me (could be firefox) or else I would start a little of it.  

by JonH on Jan 2, 2008 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Rice was still the better hitter...
I took their best 13 years (Dawson from '79-'91 and Rice from '75-'87) and compared them.  Here's the breakdown:

Rice:   1874 G, 7464 AB, 1164 R, 2257 H, 343 2B, 73 3B, 363 HR, 1338 RBI,  56 SB, .302/.355/.514
Dawson: 1847 G, 7129 AB, 1042 R, 2032 H, 363 2B, 74 3B, 333 HR, 1191 RBI, 254 SB, .285/.328/.497

Or for simplicity, here is the average season:

Rice:   144 G, 574 AB, 89.5 R, 174 H, 26 2B, 6 3B, 28 HR, 103 RBI, 4 SB, .302/.355/.514
Dawson: 142 G, 548 AB, 80 R, 156 H, 28 2B, 6 3B, 26 HR, 92 RBI, 20 SB, .285/.328/.497

Rice was the better hitter, Dawson better on the basepaths and in the field.  All in all, I'd say that Dawson was the better player given longevity (Dawson had 4 additional productive years), speed, and defense.  Though I'm not sure I'd vote either player into the Hall of Fame.  That pains me to say as Dawson was my favorite player growing up.

by SouthernCub on Jan 2, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Do you
take into account the quality of the hitters batting around the two players during thier prime years?  That has a huge affect on RBI, runs, even OBP and Average.  

Jim Rice spent the majority of his prime years batting in lineups with perenial MVP candidates like Cecil Cooper, Dwight Evans, Fred Lynn, Carl Yaztremski, Carlton Fisk, Wade Boggs, Bill Buckner, and Mike Greenwell. Most of the Red Sox line-ups during Rice's years included 5 or 6 of these guys in the order along with Rice. With Fisk, Boggs, and Yaz already in the Hall, and Cooper and Evans (in my opinion) being better players - it's safe to say Jim Rice had a lot of protection.  

Dawson was surrounded with Tony Perez, Gary Carter, Ellis Valentine, Larry Parrish, Warren Cromartie, Tim Raines, Al Oliver, Tim Wallach, Terry Francona, Hubie Brooks, Ryne Sandberg, Mark Grace, and Dwight Smith.  Of those players, only Raines, Sandberg, and Carter (two HOFers and another who may be very soon) were members of Dawson's line-up that finished ahead of him in OPS more than once.

Take out Ryno, Rock, and the Kid - then take out Boggs, Pudge, and Dewey Evans (probably the three most productive hitters in each guy's career line-ups) - Rice is still protected by Lynn, Buckner, Cooper, Yaz, and Greenwell - while Hawk is surrounded by a few seasons of Al Oliver and a few of Tony Perez (but not at the same time).  There's no arguing that both guy's probably made the other hitters around them better and more productive, but Rice had far superior teammates aiding him in the same way.

None of this is to say that Jim Rice is or isn't Hall of Fame worthy, I'm firmly planted on the fence on that one, but I'm arguing that Andre Dawson was a superior player both in his prime and in long term.  The numbers listed for thier average prime season are very close, with Dawson obviously getting the nod in the speed and defense categories and Rice topping him with most offensive numbers.  However, I don't think that those offensive numbers accurately reflect the men who put them up.  It's hard to say Rice didn't benefit from playing 6 years sandwiched in beween Yaz, Fisk, Evans, and Lynn.  Throw in Cecil Cooper for a few seasons, then finish up your career surrounded by Buckner, Boggs, Greenwell, Don Baylor, and Rich Gedman - and you've got yourself a pretty cushy line-up spot.  By no means am I saying that anyone could have put up Rice's numbers in that spot - but a star player suddenly looks like a super-star when he's got the entire MVP ballot of the late '70s/early '80s hitting around him.

Dawson, on the other hand, did not play 81 games a year in the cozy dimensions of Fenway Park.  It doesn't take much of an imagination to see the Hawk putting three or four extra long balls down that 302 foot right field line.  What amounted to pop outs on the Olympic Stadium warning track suddenly become three-run bombs in Boston (look what happened when Dawson, already aging, moved from Montreal to Wrigley).  Add into that the line-up protection Rice got and you start to seperate.  In that line-up, in that park, Dawson's power numbers jump (just like they did in 1987).  I'm not saying he hits 49 every year, but add 3-5 more dingers and 10-12 more ribbies, 10-15 more points on the batting average for the first 10 years of his career - with those numbers + Andre's throwing arm, fielding, and speed and he's a lock for the Hall and the difference between him and Rice is obvious.

I don't mean to take anything away from Jim Rice, he was a great player, but I firmly believe Andre Dawson was several notches above.

Completely aside of the Dawson vs. Rice argument... I don't like to play the "could have been" or "what if" game, but playing in a more power friendly park, like Jim Rice did, Andre Dawon might have tacked on 3-5 more homers a year in his first 10 season.  That puts him at around 478 long balls.  Without the beating Montreal's turf took on his knees, he certainly could have hit 2-3 more a year for his last 10 seasons, putting him over 500 where we no longer have is Dawson Hall worthy/is Dawson better than Rice discussions.

This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.

by HectorVillanueva on Jan 2, 2008 3:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Dawson
It's interesting to note Dawson's power jump in 1987 came during a season in which one of his lineup protectors (Sandberg) missed about two months with an injury.

Of course, everyone knows the ball was juiced in 1987. But that doesn't take away what Dawson did that year.

"Have Keith Moreland drop a routine fly. Give everybody two bags of peanuts and a frosty malt, And I'll be ready to die." -Steve Goodman

by danimal15 on Jan 2, 2008 4:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Muskat
Is not well-liked I take it?  I've seen her bashed quite a few times. haha  

Any Jessica Alba fans?  Pretty funny story here:
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/01/off-field-fleeces-gofer-hits-jackpot-lands-alba/

by ET90210 on Jan 2, 2008 11:24 AM CST reply actions  

Did you
stumble across this while reading Wednesdays Wangedoodles?  I did, seems like a coincidence.  And yeah, Muskat isn't considered the gold standard for baseball reporting around here.
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 2, 2008 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Rice
MEAH! I would go for Dawson, I think he deserves it. Dunston is a no.

Is it just me or is everyone else waiting for some real Cubs news to happen. Things seem like they've been at a snails pace since the 'Dome signed. Al, the top 100 Cubs were made for days like this!

This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).

by mrcubsfan on Jan 2, 2008 2:05 PM CST reply actions  

Amen, brother!
I'm bored by the lack of news, and the fact that the Top 100 Cubs list has been done means little in the way of new material for Al.

Now, not to say that Al doesn't deserve an offseason break (he clearly does), but here's an idea for a regular feature.  We have about 56 days until spring training....how about Al's Top 50 Cubs Games I've (Al, not me) Attended? Maybe impossibly hard to quantify in the lower levels, but I'm sure the Top 10-15 would be pretty spectacular....and with all of the fans here, I'm sure others would have memories of watching those same games (live or on TV)....

Just a thought to tide us over until the Twins deal us Johan Santana....

by Chadnudj on Jan 2, 2008 2:11 PM CST up reply actions  

AAAAAAmen to Santana
if we get him that would make our offseason, but I would settle for Bedard too. Maybe Al would let the readers do the heavy lifting again and submit short reads on a variety of topics. I enjoy reading what everyone likes about he Cubs and Wrigley. This dead time with no real news is killing me!
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).

by mrcubsfan on Jan 2, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I had some ideas...
... about doing something exactly like your thoughts during the season, but never got around to organizing it -- you know, a little thing called playoffs sort of got in the way.

Maybe next offseason we can do this -- a "top 50 Cub games of all time"? Let me work on this later in the winter and early in the season.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 2, 2008 4:05 PM CST up reply actions  

now you got me thinking...
how about the top 50 street homers of all time.  Obviously Cubs homers would be prominent but there have been plenty of significant out-of-the-park homers hit by the opposition as well over the years.  In addition to my own 18 years of experience, a couple of the veteran ballhawks (Mo and Rich) are pushing 60 and over 60 respectively, and they've been 'hawking since they were kids, so there's a wealth of history I can tap into this season as I do my research.

This has the makings of a fun project.  Thanks Al and Chadnudj for giving me good food for thought during these cold months.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 3, 2008 9:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Dunno about 50...
... whether we could sustain a series that long, but hey -- make up a list and send it to me, maybe we can do something with this.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 3, 2008 11:06 AM CST up reply actions  

Oh, I wasn't really thinking of...
...making a big production of this, a la the Top 100 Cubs or the Top Cubs Prospects diaries.  Look, I love what I do, hanging out on the streets trying to catch homers, but I realize that most folks are more concerned with what's happening inside the park, and rightly so.  

I was thinking this to be more of a personal hobby research project and was just thanking you guys for planting the seed.  But if I do get around to doing this, and it turns out to be something of substance, I'll certainly share with you and see if it's BCB worthy.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 3, 2008 5:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Please do.
It's an offbeat sort of thing that a lot of people don't know much about, but stories that could definitely be told in an interesting way -- a different angle, so to speak, on events everyone knows about.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 3, 2008 6:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh - and Derek Jeter, too...
why stop there?
Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Jan 2, 2008 5:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Dunston
.....I love the guy, we share a name although spelled differently, but I would wager that he will get the same amount of votes as I will ZERO.  His numbers suck they are not good AT ALL.  I guy with a K/BB ratio of just under 5 is not only bad but hysterically bad.  

Ground ball to short, heads up in the 100's.

The Shawon O Meter was great but the players meh........1st round 1st pick was a stretch but hall of famer NEVER, this will be his only year on the ballot.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Jan 2, 2008 2:28 PM CST reply actions  

If you.....
took Dunstons best season as a pro and lets say he had that same career year for 12 straight years, HE STILL WOULD GET 10% of the votes.....
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Jan 2, 2008 3:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Dunston's problem
was that he preferred to hit leadoff but Cubs brass insisted he hit lower in the order, thus ruining his production and sabotaging many Cub teams.  If only they'd known that you ALWAYS hit players where they prefer and not where they're best suited.  Dunston may have gotten that career .obp all the way up to .300 if he'd been hitting leadoff.  Think of the games we would have won.  Oh, what might have been!

;)

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 2, 2008 2:30 PM CST reply actions  

Hahaha
......and thus the can of worms becomes opened and unsealed again
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Jan 2, 2008 2:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Yummy.
That's a tasty bit of sarcasm there, friend. Well done.
"I've always felt that starting pitching is the most important part of the rotation." - Joe Morgan, Sunday Night Baseball 8-12-07

by gary varsho on Jan 2, 2008 3:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Thank you
I just couldn't resist.  Now I just need to find a flame suit before the pithy replies start rolling in.  Btw, love your sig.

Also, it occurred to me that Shawon played for Dusty in SF for awhile, so he probably did hit lead off quite a bit.  Yikes!  

I like Shawon and I actually hope he gets at least one vote for the HOF, just so he can say he got one, being an ex-Cub and all.  But man that .obp is atrocious.  Good thing I didn't care about that back then.

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 2, 2008 8:25 PM CST up reply actions  

A bit off topic
but not Diary worthy (to me) - as I stated last week, whomever thought naming rights would fetch "$2 Million Dollars" was way, way, off ($8MM to $15MM light from what I thought) - Carrie Muskrat weighs in on naming rights and gives some precedent setting figures on recent deals:

"The naming rights to the Mets' new Citi Field in New York garnered a deal of $20 million per year for 20 years (that's $400 million). Barclay's bought the rights to the new home for the National Basketball Association Nets for the same fee."

Considering Wrigley has more brand awareness than the above, we might be looking at $30MM a year.  

Wait 'til next year. And the next. And the Next. And the next after that too.

by TheEman on Jan 2, 2008 2:44 PM CST reply actions  

Interesting
I hadn't really thought about it but $10+ million was sort of stuck in the back of my mind.  If it's $20-30 million a year don't they have to do it, provided the money goes to the team?  If it's used right that's a lot of money to put back into Wrigley or add to payroll.  My guess is Zell dropped the hint and now we'll start hearing more and more about it, softening us up, until we just accept it.  Imagine the PR nightmare if they just announced it tomorrow... but given time to win fans over with promises of great things and it could happen.
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 2, 2008 8:33 PM CST up reply actions  

you know that saying - every man has his price?
Well, I guess I can amend that a bit to "every FAN has his price"

I am pretty much in the purist camp (day baseball, kill the DH, dump selig, etc.) so I basically abhor the notion of naming rights for Wrigley Field, but I have to say...

If naming rights brings in $20M+ a year AND most if not all of that goes into payroll, then instead of dwelling on the negativity of seeing corporate logos slapped all over the place and seeing/hearing it in the media, I could instead imagine Johan Santana on the mound for the next 6-7 years...

Hmm...  maybe I could be convinced.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 3, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions  

CARRIE MUSKAT MUST GO!
I can't stand her Cubs mailbag responses (which are frequently incorrect), but this last mailbag was just too much!  Her responses to the potential renaming of Wrigley Field are flippant and ridiculous.

In Muskat world - let's go to Microsoft Field after we've enjoyed a "Micro-brew" beer at the Computer Bear Bar in Microsoftville.  

Even worse, since she's a generic MLB "beat reporter" i found articles she's written for the Brewers!  Let's inundate Muskat's email with "you should be fired" messages until she quits.

by BlueDonnellys on Jan 2, 2008 3:13 PM CST reply actions  

Mailbag
Did you notice in her last mailbag that she said she made a resolution to not answer any more Sosa questions? Is it wrong of me to wish all of us here e-mailed her nothing but questions on Sammy just to piss her off?

by Cub Fan in Card Country on Jan 2, 2008 7:42 PM CST up reply actions  

ends don't justify means
Muskat is awful -- but she's right about Sosa.  I'm sick and tired of casual fans insisting that bringing Sammy back is just what the team needs.

Of course, if they did it, she'd write that it was a brilliant decision.  Interestingly, other MLB.com beat writers don't seem to have this same blind devotion to the teams they cover.

by Shanghai Badger on Jan 3, 2008 3:46 PM CST up reply actions  

As a former journalist
I can't understand how a columnist like Rogers, who's not writing under any major deadline pressure, can mess up something so simple (Rice's age when he retired).

On a story being written under tight deadlines -for instance a game recap - I think a mistake like that is excusable, as long as it doesn't happen all the time. But for a columnist to make it, when he's got all day to write the damn thing and every baseball reference he needs available to him online, I have trouble with it.

Now maybe I'm being too harsh. I made stupid mistakes sometimes, as well (I once spelled a doctor's name wrong in the Wall Street Journal - he wasn't too happy). Getting Rice's age wrong was less egregious. But still sloppy.

"Have Keith Moreland drop a routine fly. Give everybody two bags of peanuts and a frosty malt, And I'll be ready to die." -Steve Goodman

by danimal15 on Jan 2, 2008 4:37 PM CST reply actions  

agreed..between Rogers and Muskat
Its quite a day for "journalists"

Rogers used to be a very good baseball columnist IMO...but he has totally fallen off the map in the last couple of years with his creativity, unique stories and most importantly for a columnist, opinions!!

Let me get back to you, will ya, Charlie? I got a guy on the other line asking about some white walls.

by JB 23 on Jan 2, 2008 6:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Rogers
writes about baseball, like he has been covering another sport his entire life and just watched his first game last week.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Jan 3, 2008 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Matt Vasgersian...
... is calling the Fiesta Bowl. I guess I need a reminder from time to time that the man is an annoying tool who thankfully is not under the employment of WGN.

DmL

by dmlichte on Jan 2, 2008 8:52 PM CST reply actions  

He and Chris Rose make quite a pair...
..how that chucklehead is on the air is beyond me.

They actually make me miss ESPN.

Let me get back to you, will ya, Charlie? I got a guy on the other line asking about some white walls.

by JB 23 on Jan 2, 2008 9:20 PM CST up reply actions  

He was a better Shortstop than you were!
1st of all it's a slow news time for Baseball. She had to write something. The hot stove isn't all that hot at the moment.

2nd, No matter what you feel about Dunston, and I would agree that he has zero right to be in the Hall, he was a better player than anyone posting to this blog. So be as dismissive as you want he was a better player than any of you or me for that matter.  So if you feel the need to make your antipathy personal you should take it home with you.

by bubbamike the one and only on Jan 2, 2008 9:00 PM CST reply actions  

Hmmm.
Not quite sure what you're saying here. Unless there are former or present major league players posting here (and I don't think there are any -- if there are, c'mon out), every single player in the majors or retired is a better player than any poster on this blog. Are you saying none of us has any right to criticize play of a major league player because we didn't play?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al Yellon on Jan 3, 2008 12:54 AM CST up reply actions  

So when you watch a baseball game
Do you say good play even when the player makes an error or strikes out on a bad pitch with the bases loaded?  

I don't get your point.      

by rlpete on Jan 3, 2008 8:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed...
and an excellent counterexample.

The original post makes no sense.  Just because I'm not as good a baseball player as any one in the majors (or minors, or college, or most high school) doesn't mean I'm not capable of critiquing the quality of those player's play.  I may not be able to match their abilities, but I can certainly tell who has more proficiency and who has less.

For a somewhat similar example, most baseball writers couldn't play baseball any better than any of us, yet they get to decide who gets in to the Hall of Fame.

by SouthernCub on Jan 3, 2008 9:15 AM CST up reply actions  

He IS better than me
but I didn't make a career out of it and earn $24,508,441 either.  He damn well better be better than I am.  What's that got to do with anything anyway?  No one is making fun of Shawon, no one has said they don't like him.  In fact it's just the opposite, everyone seems to like him inspite of his shortcomings as a ballplayer.
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 3, 2008 9:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Wait.....
....I thought Carrie wrote for The Onion and Al was the Cubs official beat reporter?
"In all the categories that you pay the most attention to, except the loss column, we're doing very well" - Jim Hendry

by Jayo525 on Jan 2, 2008 9:19 PM CST reply actions  

loved Dunston
also, busted his ass, problem was he swung from the ankles to the eyes, and would get thrown out at least once a week on the bases where you just shook your head and the TV set.
 Goodness Carrie move on.
 Hate this time of year no real baseball news, oh I am sorry the Jays signed Reed Johnson on a one year deal.
 Go Cubs.

by Johnny Callison was a Cub on Jan 2, 2008 10:16 PM CST reply actions  

Should have read
Me and many people I know have the image of Santo plodding toward first as the opposition completes a 6-4-3 double play in the eighth or ninth inning etched into our baseball memories forever.

by TR on Jan 3, 2008 1:42 AM CST reply actions  

Fukudome and Ichiro would work out together
Not very big news so I'll add here...

Dome and Ichiro are using same facility for new year training now, at the Nagoya Stadium and it's gym.
http://www.sponichi.co.jp/baseball/news/2008/01/04/12.html

On Jan 3rd, Ichiro came into the gym 20 minutes after Dome left home to change diapers of his new baby, Hayato, and Ichiro worked hard on his batting practice.
Ichiro will have a day off tomorrow, the article says they might work together on some menus on tomorrow (Jan 5th JST).
They were teammates at Japan team for WBC 2006, and Ichiro was a good mentor for Dome since then. Dome definitely would like to get some consultation to play for Cubs, by this 7 years veteran of MLB.

Ichiro is a native boy and have a luxurious home in Toyoyama, a small satellite town of 13,998, and is very next to big city Nagoya (over 2 million people). He was a great Dragons fan when he was a kid, frequently visited old Nagoya Stadium (formerly home of Dragons) to watch games. One of his favorite Dragons' player was Ken Macha, former manager of Oakland A's, as he's got Macha's autograph on his glove.

by dragonsfanatic on Jan 3, 2008 6:05 PM CST reply actions  

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