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Royals leading Santana Race?

...is the title of a pretty funny blog post that you can access here.

I think people here might take for granted that our team is regularly mentioned as a possible destination for a lot of big name talent despite it's lack of success in getting to the big show .  If not for the Tribune Co.'s deep pockets these last few years...

OK, so here's the rub: I'm flat sick and tired of going on Baseball Think Factory or one of the other baseball Web sites every other day and reading some headline that says: "Red Sox Back in Santana Derby," or "Don't Count Out Yankees In Race For Santana" or "Mets Take Santana Lead." First off, you can't take a "lead" when it comes to a trade. This isn't NASCAR. You don't get points for leading a lap. Some team may trade for Santana, or maybe not, but one thing is certain: There won't be a second place. And no team will get even one scoreless inning because they "led" the Santana race in December.

But that's not my real problem here. No, my real problem is that whenever there's something enormous like this going on in baseball -- some gigantic free agency deal or some monster trade involving the best pitcher in baseball -- the Kansas City Royals might as well be playing Major League Soccer. I'm not just saying that the Royals are not involved. I'm saying they are a MILLION MILES AWAY from being involved. I'm saying they are more likely to pick up Carlos Santana or Johann Sebastian Bach or some other play off the guy's name. I'm saying Royals fans -- and probably from from 10 or 15 other teams out there -- realize that they are playing a different game.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Im confused why you posted this..
....but you formed the title of the diary as a question so Ill answer the question.

NO

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Jan 25, 2008 9:32 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

It was a joke.
Read the link inside.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 25, 2008 9:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Cool
I didnt hit the link because I didnt think it was worthy, although since its a joke I may check it out.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry "I strongly dislike Steve Stone." ---Hammer

by Hammer on Jan 25, 2008 10:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Funny stuff
But also has some truth to it.  Things may not be as bleak as the writer paints them but he's got a point.
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 25, 2008 10:01 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

One of the rare pleasures...
...of also being a Royals fan is benefitting from the wit and critical thinking of Joe Posnanski.  Outside of the regular news sites dealing with both my teams, his weblog and whatever's put up at BCB are required reading.

But, considering how the Cubs are either not all involved, or super-secretly involved, in the Santana race, we may as well be the Royals with regard to Santana. - TL

"Why shouldn't we believe that we're going to win the World Series?" - Ted Lilly, 1/19/2008, Daily Herald interview w/Barry Rozner

by timlacy on Jan 25, 2008 10:06 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I must admit...
...the title of the blog post is brillant. And I feel for Royals fans -- their favorite team has been stuck in baseball purgatory for too long.
Ladies and gentlemen, your 2008 Chicago Cubs starting outfield: Soriano-Pie-Fukudome. Let it be.

by dat cubfan daver on Jan 25, 2008 10:23 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Part of Selig's Legacy
I think the point that 10-15 teams are "Playing a different game" is spot on and it should go into the discussion of Selig's legacy.  I'm convinced that in retrospect he will be viewed as the most controversial commissioner baseball (or sports in general) has ever know.  Increased revenues and team valuations, wildcard, steroids, competative inbalance.  That's a ot to digest.

By the way, though, how come no Brian Roberts diaries today?  I had the over/under at 3.  

by NO100 on Jan 25, 2008 11:28 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

10-15 teams?
This tired old saw about a lack of competitive balance continues to be trotted out.  The fact is that we are in an era of greater competition than in the past.  In the late 1940's/1950's, for example, the question was simply which of the two DNew York NL teams was going to lose to the Yankees in the World Series.

In the last 10 years 14 teams have been to the World Series and 7 different teams have won.  Only one team has been more than 3 times, and all of those were at the start of this ten year period (in other words, it is likely that the number of different winners and teams will increase, not decrease).

In the 1960's 11 teams went to the World Series, 7 teams won and 3 teams went more three or more times.

In the 1950's, only 7 teams went to the World Series, ony 4 teams won.   One team went 8 times, one team went 5 times and one team went twice.  No other team went more than once.  Only three teams from the AL went.

The fact is that back under the reserve system, teams were playing under two different systems.  Now teams can compete if they choose to compete.   Each year this claim of competitive imbalance arises, and each year, it proves virtually impossible to name 10 teams which clearly will not be competitive.  For at least one team out of that mix will, if they do not win the division or the wild card, be within two or three games of the playoffs at some point after August 15.  

Each year I pose the challenge and each year the "baseball is imbalanced" people don't take up the challenge.

Who are the 10 - 15 teams that cannot compete this year?

As I see it, the only teams that likely cannot compete are the Orioles (but they have money and are mismanged), the Blue Jays (but the Canadian Dollar is now strong, so the old "blame the Looney" no longer applies - maybe its time to acknowledge that Canada's just not a good market for baseball) and the Devil Rays (another example of incompetent management) in the AL East, the White Sox and the Royals in the AL Central and that's just about it in the AL.  Every other team can compete.

In the NL, the Nationals (but that's really the result of the gutting by MLB and the time needed to rebuild) and the Marlins (hmmmm... owned by Jeff Loria.... and the Pirates.   Everyone else is arguably in the mix.   That's 8 and I think it would be hard to come up with even one more.

by frustratedfan on Jan 25, 2008 3:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think...
... you might be surprised by how competitive both the Blue Jays and Nationals are this year. The Jays still have some good young players and the Nats have the benefit of the new ballpark with likely large crowds most of the year.

Otherwise I agree with everything you wrote.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 25, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What he means
is that 10-15 teams are playing a different game financially, not competitively.  It's hard to argue that teams who spend 1/10th what other teams are spending have the same chance at winning.  There is a greater discrepancy between payrolls now than ever before, and money draws talent.  It's no coincidence that Boston and the Yankees are constant favorites for the AL pennant.  Yes, any team CAN win once the playoffs start but getting to the playoffs is a lot harder when you start out at such a major disadvantage.  Sound management can make up for some of that but in todays game sound management for low revenue teams seems to mean getting the best deal for your soon-to-be free agents. The Cubs, for all their futility, have made the playoffs in 3 of the last 10 years, and just happen to be the richest team in the division.  The Pirates, probably the poorest team, haven't been since 1992.

Can you see the Pirates ever spending $300 million in an offseason?  Wouldn't they be better if they could?

Instead of naming 15 teams who are have no chance in 2008 try naming the teams who are poor and those who are rich and then determine how many from each list have a legitimate shot at the postseason.  The rich teams will have the better shot, no doubt.

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 25, 2008 8:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Spending Money does not equate to winning.
There is no real correlation between payroll and playing in the World Series.  The last time the high payroll Dodgers made the WS was 1988 (20 years ago), the Orioles 1993, the Rangers have never made the WS.

The simple fact is that, under the current system, we see LESS domination by a single team, not more.  Consider that between 1936 and 1964 the Yankees appeared in 23 out of 29 World Series (or nearly 75% of the time).   No team has come anywhere close to that domination in the "uncompetitive" era we are now in.  

And that's the point.  The idea that the big money teams automatically win is just wrong.  The ability to judge players properly is far more important.  Consider, for example, that the two worst teams in the AL this upcoming season (maybe the two worst teams in baseball) are both BIG spenders in payroll (the White Sox and the Orioles.)

by frustratedfan on Jan 25, 2008 9:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Right.
And since 2000, the last time the Yankees won the WS, of the seven WS winners since then, only two (the two times the Red Sox won) could be considered in the upper echelon of payrolls. The Angels are now, but they weren't in 2002. And the Rockies made the WS last year with one of the lowest payrolls.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 26, 2008 4:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There is, however, a correlation
between spending money and making the playoffs.  Perhaps it is better than before, but MLB has not made near the strides that the NFL or the NBA have made in that time.  

Since 2000, there have been 7 teams in the NL and 6 teams in the AL that have made the playoffs once or less.  Of the 7 NL teams are Phi, Fla, Wash, Cin, Bre, Pit, and CO.  Of those teams, the only one in which one could say they spend much is Phi.  Plus, the teams that have been there 3 times or more, StL, Atl, Ari, and SF, only ARI isn't a traditional big spender, though thier 01 and 02 teams were near the top for payroll those years.

In the AL, it's Tor, TB, Bal, KC, Det, and TX.  Tor and TX have spent money.  Det has only spent money recently.  The other teams haven't.  Also, looking at those teams that have made the playoffs three times or more Min, Oak, Bos, NYY, and LAA, Bos, NYY, and LAA have alawys been at the top of the AL in spending.  Bos, NYY, and LAA have accounted for half of the playoff appearances in the AL for that time.  

It's not an argument of whether it's possible to make the playoffs with a low payroll.  Of course it's possible.  But the more a team spends the more likely it is to make the playoffs.  

by NO100 on Jan 26, 2008 11:28 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Market Size and Spending
I think that you have carefully chosen a data point (and a small period of time) to support your invalid argument.  

Firstly, is the question that teams "can't" spend the money to compete or "won't" spend the money to compete.  Initially, your claim that Baltimore "won't" spend the money is wrong on two claims.  Firstly, the Orioles, have had a high payroll and were, until two years ago, the team in the largest single team media market.   In other words, they clearly have the money, even if they decide not to spend it or not spend it wisely.  

Further, as you note, small market St Louis and Atlanta are big spenders.

Your AL claim is also "Clintonian" in the degree to which it mis-states the facts.  Do  NY, BOS and ANA have half of the appearances?  Sure.  But not becuase of Boston or Anaheim.   Its New York.  Oakland, the antithesis of a high priced team has appeared in the Post Season more than either Boston or Anaheim and Minnesota has appeared more times than Boston and as many times as Anaheim.  

One could also say that New York, Oakland and Minnesota have had more than half of all playoff appearances since 2000 and Oakland and Minnesota are traditionally near the bottom in payroll.

In other words, the facts don't support your claims.

Well, don't support your claims unless you are Hillary.

by frustratedfan on Jan 26, 2008 2:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

First of all
you are absolutely classless to compare me to the Clintons.  You are scum.

Second of all, I never once invoked either "can't" or "won't".  They "don't" spend money.  Have you ever heard of a term called "minimum payroll"?  Do you know what that means, you troll?  So, pretty much the whole first part of your argument is invalidated.  

You completely misrrepresent my argument.  I NEVER ONCE said that it is not possible to make the playoffs without a high payroll.  But, for all your windbagging, you never disproved the claim that there is a correlation between high payroll and making the playoffs.  

You pointed out, correctly, that Min and Oak have made the playoffs as many or more times than Ana or Bos.  How does that disprove the argument that there is a correlation between high payroll and making the playoffs?   You still had to include the Yankees in there to do that.

Now, stick to the claim about the correlation between the playoffs and payroll.  Stick to the fact that in the last 8 years 13 teams have made the palyoffs once or not at all.  Stick to comparing, oh, the last decade or so.  

Disprove that, you rancid piece of garbage.

by NO100 on Jan 26, 2008 3:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If the Shoe fits...
you are absolutely classless to compare me to the Clintons.  You are scum.

Yawn.   You engaged in exactly the kind of reasoning that Hillary has been using.  If the shoe fits, wear it.

Second of all, I never once invoked either "can't" or "won't".  They "don't" spend money.  Have you ever heard of a term called "minimum payroll"?  Do you know what that means, you troll?  So, pretty much the whole first part of your argument is invalidated.  

The problem is that the "teams are playing on a different playing field" doesn't mean anything if you don't explain the different playing field.  Is it "doesn't have the money to spend" or "has the money, but won't spend it".   if the former, yes, you might actually have a problem.  If the later, then its not a real problem.  Its a volitional choice not to compete using the same tools.

You completely misrrepresent my argument.  I NEVER ONCE said that it is not possible to make the playoffs without a high payroll.  But, for all your windbagging, you never disproved the claim that there is a correlation between high payroll and making the playoffs.  

And you haven't proven that it is the case.   What I have pointed out is that this claim that we no longer have competitive balance starts off with the false claim that we had competitive balance.   The simple fact is that in the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's we had far less competitive balance.   The goal is, after all to be in the World Series.  And, as noted above, if its a volitional choice....

You pointed out, correctly, that Min and Oak have made the playoffs as many or more times than Ana or Bos.  How does that disprove the argument that there is a correlation between high payroll and making the playoffs?  

Since Minnesota and Oakland have a lower payroll, and since if you take the three teams that have made the playoffs the most you find two of the three have lower payrolls, that suggests that there is not a correlation between high payroll and making the playoffs.

 You still had to include the Yankees in there to do that.

Yes.   And the Yankees are now making and winning the World Series at a far far lower rate than they did in the 1940's - 1960's -- even though they are far outspending all of the other teams.   Its not a payroll issue.  (And, by the way, if you put a hard payroll cap in place, you would see far less competition.  The Yankees would have a lot more money to spend on scouting, on the minor leagues, on paying young players (with low salaries) from the "poorer" teams in the league (ala the Yankee "farm team" in Kansas City in the early 1960's), on facilities and the like.)

Now, stick to the claim about the correlation between the playoffs and payroll.  Stick to the fact that in the last 8 years 13 teams have made the palyoffs once or not at all.  Stick to comparing, oh, the last decade or so.  

So, in the last 8 years more than half of the teams in baseball HAVE made the playoffs.   There are, over a ten year period 80 playoff spots (That's an expected random value of less than 3 playoff appearances in that ten year period.  So a team only making it "once" or even "never" is not that significant.)  
And of those thirteen, some of those teams have the ability to spend the money, but have not, and others have spent money and just been incompetent.    

And the way to judge competition is to look at the past.   What do you want to set as your standard for competition?  Every team to make the playoffs at least twice in a decade?  If so, you will leave 20 spots for teams to make the playoffs even one more time - and that, therefore, presupposes a system in which a team cannot build a team designed to compete for a number of years.  

Of course, its awfully hard to argue against anyone who doesn't actually provide a "standard".

Disprove that, you rancid piece of garbage.

Disproved.

by frustratedfan on Jan 26, 2008 4:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Knock off the namecalling NOW...
... both of you.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 26, 2008 4:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry
You didn't disprove anything and you also proved you aren't worth a more serious reply.

By the way, I didn't know Sean Hannity was a Cubs fan.  

Tootles!

by NO100 on Jan 26, 2008 5:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Standard
The math shows that each team in the AL, assuming it was purely random, would appear only 2.5 times in 10 years and a team in the NL would appear almost, but not quite 3 times.  In the NL, with 12 teams per playoff, each team should appear about 4 times in 10 years.  In other words, its much easier to make the playoffs in the NL.  And yet, even with the NFL salary cap and "parity" we have the "Yankees" and the "Red Sox" (aka the Patriots and the Colts) and  also the Steelers, the Giants, the Cowboys and the Eagles)  And yet no one is arguing that the NFL doesn't have parity.

What's the standard for a "fair playing field" in MLB?  Instead of launching attacks, enumerate a standard.   In fact, the Braves and Cardinals, who constantly compete in small market, the Athletics and the Twins, who not only compete in small markets, but do so better than just about all of the large markets, offers direct evidence to the contrary about claims that baseball "cannot compete".   What baseball has are about 3 organizations (The Devil Rays, the Royals, and the Pirates) that refuse to compete and may well not have the money to compete based on their present market draws.   The Royals and the Pirates, in fact, may never be able to "draw" sufficiently due to the very small size in their markets, the Devil Rays, however, may well draw if they properly market the team.   It seems strange to want to blow up and throw away an entire system (under which just about every team can compete) because of two markets out of thirty.  

And, of course, all of the "solutions" ignore the one solution which would actually "fix" the problem.  A new team in the NL in New England (to dilute the Red Sox market power) and a new team in  New York/New Jersey to "dilute" the market power of the Mets/Yankees.  Say the Meadowlands Pirates and the Providence Royals.

 

by frustratedfan on Jan 28, 2008 3:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure...
... how moving those teams would "fix" the problem. But there's no doubt that NY/NJ could support three teams -- they did so for decades before the Giants and Dodgers left for California.

And if there would be room for another team in New England, it would likely be Hartford, not Providence, hosting it.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Jan 28, 2008 4:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Fix the Problem
The situation is that the New York market is so large that the Yankees get so much "other" revenue that they can afford to spend so much money. If "too much money" is the problem, by adding another team to the market, the TV and other revenue will decline.  (Consider the screams made by the Orioles when the Nationals came in to the Baltimore Washington market).  As for New England, yeah, Bridgeport would likely be better, but Boston did support two teams in the past and probably could do so now.  And thus Providence, which is so close to Boston, is a legitimate location.  

by frustratedfan on Jan 28, 2008 9:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I should have known....
that seeing the title of the diary was the equivalent of getting your world news headlines in the supermarket checkout line from the tabloid magazines.  All I could think when I saw the diary title was, "Yeah, right.  And I'm leading the race to be the first human to walk on Mars."
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Jan 25, 2008 12:33 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

kc
why would anyone want to play in kc

by NOMAR on Jan 27, 2008 9:04 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

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