My Tentative Cubs Top 20 Prospect List
It’s getting to that time of the year again … prospect lists will be coming out left and right soon. Here’s my early attempt at it. Been awhile since I worked through one - last time was probably mid August? Still working through some thoughts, and thus, could make some adjustments as soon as I click the post button. Will try to expand this list to 50 or more in the near future, time permitting.
Our system has upside in the lower levels, but a lot of it is raw. Some may be open to giving higher grades to those guys. In the end, it’s just my opinion, which I try my best to base on a combination of readiness, upside, and production. I think Vitters is a solid top 50, perhaps top 40 on top 100 prospect lists. Shark is probably a solid top 40/50. Ceda/Cashner/Castillo likely are thoughts in that 80-100 range, although all three could be on the outside looking in (particularly Castillo, as BA loves Ceda, saying he has elite stuff).
- Josh Vitters, B+. Strong season in Boise, but he has to perform in full-season. Look for him in Peoria, with the potential for a bump to Daytona or Tennessee later in the year. Reportedly showing signs of improved defense, enough hope that he can perhaps be in line to replace Aramis at the hot corner in a few years. Arguably, the only elite chip in our system.
- Jeff Samardzija, B+. Still qualifies as a rookie. The one high upside arm in our system at the upper levels. Front of the rotation potential. Shark showed a lot of signs of improvement, but needs more work. He’ll be in the bigs in 2009, just depends on what role. I prefer him in the pen.
- Jose Ceda, B. I’m not sure about a specific grade here. Part of me thinks B+, as he’s a high upside pen arm with elite stuff. Part of me thinks B, as he needs some more work. Should start 2009 in the minors in AA/AAA, although it’s not impossible he performs well in spring and goes with the big league squad. Could see the bigs in 2009 if he is with us late into the year.
- Andrew Cashner, B. He’s still a work in progress. I’m hesitant to put him 4th … but who else? Think Ceda (very similar, although I think Ceda’s stuff is better). I don’t buy into the “work him as a starter” idea and expect the Cubs to develop him in the pen. Maybe he gets extended outings, but that’s typical for pen arms in the minors anyways. I’d guess Daytona to start 2009, particularly since it’s in warmer weather and more of a pitcher’s league, although he should be able to dominate Peoria if they sent him there to start. I think he could see Tennessee, if not Iowa, with an outside shot of the big leagues (but that is assuming everything is perfect).
- Wellington Castillo, B. Coming into 2008, he was looked at as a young Hank White of sorts, with the potential for some offensive development. He’s shown enough to suggest that he might be better than that, if the offense develops some more. I think he starts in AA, but Iowa is possible. May get a September callup, but with Soto/Blanco/Hill, there’s no need to force him up.
- Tyler Colvin, B-. The late surge got him back up a bit. If he can find some balance between instincts and discipline, he may yet reach some of the projections for him (a young Shawn Green has been tossed about before). He should start 2009 in the minors. I’d guess Iowa, but there’s a shot he starts in Tennessee to “prove it” before getting bumped up. Btw, he’s a corner OF that can pinch in CF, not a CF playing a corner spot, IMO.
- Jovan Rosa, B-. Hey, I’m a big fan, so maybe I’m biased here. Certainly, the fact that he is looking like a first baseman somewhat tempers the excitement, but he posted an excellent line for the MWL. His June struggles brought down the overall line. He should be in Daytona to start 2009, likely splitting 3rd and 1st again. Only 21 at the start of 2009, one of the guys that I am really excited to follow, considering the power potential here (43 doubles and his body should fill out a bit more).
- Ryan Flaherty, B-. He garnered number 12 prospect in BA’s NWL rankings. Defensive woes likely mean a positional switch down the road … which was speculated upon before the draft. It’ll be interesting to see what the Cubs do here. The positional move likely is to 2nd base, as he doesn’t profile to have the power desired at 3rd. I could see a jump to Daytona if they move him to 2nd. On the other hand, I can see them sticking in Peoria and hoping he can stick at short.
- Jay Jackson, C+. I may be putting him a bit high, but boy, was he an exciting addition to the system. Loose arm projects well, along with his overall athleticism. Runs a fastball in the low 90’s that can touch the mid-90’s, has a solid slider, and mixes in a curve and a change. I’ll guess Daytona to start 2009, but he could be in Tennessee. Might see Tennessee or Iowa by the end of the year. Don’t have a good read on his projection, as some suggest that his stuff might be able to get sharper and better with more development. Already has a solid fastball in the low to mid 90’s, a solid slider, and usable curve and change.
- Micah Hoffpauir, C+. I’m not fond of any 28 year old being considered a key prospect in a system, but there isn’t really anyone else, and you gotta give him credit. This isn’t the same Micah that hit Iowa way back in the day (and briefly got demoted for Brandon Sing). He’s definitely improved. Enough to start regularly in the bigs? Not sold, but enough to at least be in the bigs? Yes. Not many people would’ve anticipated that a few years ago.
- Nate Spears, C+. He seems like he’s been around forever, but he’s still relatively young, and he had a big year in the Southern League. I think he can be a big league utility option, as he can handle short enough, a la Theriot. The C+ is more an acknowledgement of him being the upper levels of the system. Should start 2009 in Iowa.
- Dan McDaniel, C+. I am probably crazy, crazy, crazy on this one. Power righty arm runs it up there in the mid-90’s. Has a decent to solid curve I think and a usable change and slider. I won’t be surprise if we move him to back to the rotation (started at Chabot I think). Strong season at Boise, looking for him to start 09 in Peoria, although it’s possible they try him as a starter and start him in XST perhaps, with a bump to Boise, and a shot at Peoria.
- Dae-Eun Rhee, C+*. This one comes with a huge asterisk. Electric with a fast/curve/change (or split-change) combo when healthy, but the health. I’d look for him to be in Peoria to start 09 whenever he can get it going again..
- Mitch Atkins, C+. End of the rotation type, but he’s up in AAA and he’s coming off a solid year. Should start 2009 as a stretched out arm in Iowa, and could see the bigs. Gets the plus for being at a higher level.
- Nate Samson, C. Tailed off a bit at the end of the year, but Samson and Rosa were the two constant cogs in Peoria all year. Like Flaherty, isn’t likely to fit at shortstop, although he’ll probably get another chance to play there in 2009. I’d look for him to start 2009 in Daytona.
- Tony Thomas, C. The most disappointing Cubs prospect for me because I held such high expectations. His plate discipline was horrible, which surprised me. The defense was a concern, which wasn’t surprising. Certainly he made a jump and missed Peoria, so you give him the benefit of that entering 2009. I’m not sure where he starts, hunch is they’ll move him on up to Tennessee, but repeating Daytona isn’t the worst idea.
- Brandon Guyer, C. The tail off in September was bothersome, but he showed some intrigue with his hot streak in the middle. Can he put it together? Here’s a toolsy, athletic kid, a very Tim Wilken type athlete pick. More of a corner OF, but can play some CF. Has power that is lacking in the system. Considering he was a college kid, and considering he showed enough in Peoria, I think he starts 2009 in Daytona.
- Aaron Shafer, C. You certainly don’t want to read too much into Boise work for college arms, but Shafer got off to a solid start. We’ll see if he can get stronger with more time away from the injury. Was only tossing high 80’s supposedly. Should start 2009 in A ball somewhere, probably Peoria, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was Daytona.
- Chris Carpenter, C. Shaky start, but still is a college arm with two plus pitches, so at the very least, there’s hope he can move as a pen arm if he struggles as a starter. I could see a XST/Boise or Peoria type thing, although I’m hoping it’s just straight to Peoria for him.
- Starlin Castro, C. Exciting young middle infielder that got tabbed the 14the best AZL prospect (I think). Put together a solid offensive season and has a shot to stick at short. Likely XST/Boise for 09, I think.
As of now, my next 5 is some mix of Larry Suarez, Junior Lake, Jeffry Antigua, Ryan Searle, and Matt Cerda, I think. That said, a lot of guys can fit in here. Some upper level older guys could be a thought. A back end of the rotation productive guy (Carrillo/Caridad/Chen) may be an idea. A young guy like Jones/Perez could be in the mix (Perez moreso than Jones).
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
7 recs |
126 comments
Comments
Pretty good..
But there’s a guy whos first name i can’t remember but he’s a SS from the Dominican with the last name Lake. Scouts love him and he projects to have a TON of power.
Another guy is Hak Ju Lee from Korea. Hasn’t played yet but very highly touted.
Another is one of the guys from Australia.. He’s a pitcher.. Forget..
And Larry Suarez who had TJ surgery and has been compared to Z. One of the highly touted players out of Latin America a couple years back. Came on strong when he came back.
Ceda is being compared with Bobby Jenks. Me like..
Devin Hester, you are ridiculous! -Jeff Joniak
by ARAM FOR MVP on Oct 11, 2008 2:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
RE:
Larry Suarez and Junior Lake are in my 21-25 section that I tagged on at the end. Starlin Castro was better than Lake this past year and got the last nod for me, and Castro has a better shot to stick at short. Suarez was close, but it was tough for me to slide his upside in there, even though he looked good coming back from injury. Sample was limited, though. I think Lake and Suarez will do XST/Boise this upcoming season.
I have a tough time putting a kid like Lee Hak-ju in there without even seeing how he does against competition, even from a statistical analysis. There’s been a lot of high praise, and he could very well be on a top 20 list by the end of 09, but I think it’s too early.
The pitcher you are thinking of is Ryan Searle. I thought about putting him in the top 20, but like Lake/Suarez, he was in my 21-25 section at the end. He was very good this year, but BA had some negative comments on body and makeup that made me pause, since those folks do this for a living. There were enough intriguing arms, and Searle was good but doesn’t have blow away stuff.
by toonsterwu on Oct 11, 2008 2:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember
reading about that Hak-Ju kid. Scouts said he has better tools at his age then Jeter did, hits from the left side, and has blazing speed.
by china423 on Oct 11, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
He could be very good. I’ve got a tough time placing him in a top 20 list without knowing what he can do, though, production wise. A lot of kids have tools … how it translates, only time will tell. But he very well could be a top 10 kid next year for us.
by toonsterwu on Oct 11, 2008 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question about Vitters
What do you think his arrival time will be the big leagues?
My thought is around the end of 2011/2012.
by Steves Stoners on Oct 11, 2008 3:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Vitters
Well, let’s sketch it out then.
A positive scenario would have him
2009 – Peoria to start, Daytona to finish
2010 – Some combination of Daytona/Tennessee
2011 – Tennessee/Iowa/Bigs?
I think that’s a fairly possible scenario, so yes, I can buy end of 2011, beginning 2012, which is perfect since Aramis’ contract ends after 2011 (although there’s a 2012 option). There were some positive signs that he can handle third, so that flows real well.
A best case scenario would be
2009 – Peoria, bump to Daytona, finish at Tennessee
2010 – Tennessee, Iowa, cup of bigs
2011 – in the bigs
That’s a ridiculously positive scenario and I doubt it happens. But if it does, it could mean Vitters playing first base for a year and then perhaps moving to third, depending on FA moves.
I think the first scenario is the more realistic path, though, so yes, end of 2011/2012 would be my guess as well. Only time will tell.
by toonsterwu on Oct 11, 2008 3:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nest post
in awhile. nice work
I BELIEVE!!!! GO CUBBIES!!!!!!!!!!
by cubsluver22 on Oct 11, 2008 8:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
best post i meant to say
I BELIEVE!!!! GO CUBBIES!!!!!!!!!!
by cubsluver22 on Oct 11, 2008 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Samardzija as a starter will benefit him....
Hendry even said having him as a starter would enable him to work on the quality of all of his pitches, whereas if he were a one inning reliever he wouldnt necessarily have the opportunity to throw all of his pitches, certainly not multiple times.
But I suppose that all depends on what happens with the Dempster signing and any possible Marquis moves.
I think you might be right about Vitters as our only blue chipper, which is scary, cant even imagine the kind of pressure thats gonna be on that kid over the next few years.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on Oct 11, 2008 9:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Samardzija doesn't yet have a complete enough complement of pitches to start at this level
It’s a point that Bob Brenly astutely pointed out in games and I agree with him. I would say therefore that Samardzija’s immediate future remains in the bullpen. Longer term we shall have to wait and see.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 12, 2008 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find myself agreeing with you.
Samardzija could take over the 7th inning role next year. He seems well suited for it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 12, 2008 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dadgumit, I agree as well.
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
by dat cubfan daver on Oct 14, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I must admit a changeup would do his game wonders. Maybe he should spend more time
around Harden. He has survived pretty well on two pitches.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 14, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If not mistaken...
…he does have a splitter, and that is really what a lot of guys use as their change up. He has a good fastball, slider and splitter, but his slider needs tons of work, because it tends to just spin up there.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 14, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He can't command his slider consistently to use it
as an out pitch. I would be leery of him throwing a split-finger pitch on a regular basis. Many people feel that that pitch is an elbow eater and the last thing this club needs is a top prospect with arm problems.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 14, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have never heard...
…of the splitter causing undue stress on the elbow, but that doens’t mean that it doesn’t. Typically, the sharp breaking balls are what causes significant elbow stress.
Anyway, the issue with Jeff S. is purely command of all his pitches and if he improves in this area, he should certainely be a very good relief guy.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 14, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some pitching coaches are hesitant to let young pitchers
throw a splitter because they feel it damages elbows. I don’t know if there is any definitive proof of it, but some people shy away from the pitch because of the reputation.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 14, 2008 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting...
…and again, I have never heard of that before.
In fact, the first guy to really master the splitter (Bruce Sutter) started to throw it because he had arm problems in the past and needed to find a pitch he could throw without a lot of stress.
I’m not saying what you say is not happening, I just don’t understand the physics of why it would be a problem for an elbow.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 14, 2008 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roger Craig has been one it's biggest critics.
Read here=
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 14, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you read the article?
…Craig is defending the pitch, as he is the one who taught it to his ptiching staff.
Also, the injuries his pitchers suffered seemed to be shoulder issues and most could be accounted to other issues not related to the split finger pitch.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 14, 2008 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My bad I was mistaken about Craig, but the
criticism against the pitch has to do with two things. The grip and the fact that a lot of pitcher have lost velocity on their fastball after mastering the pitch. A lot of the the criticism is conjecture, but it still exists. If you google split-finger fastball and elbow injuries, you’ll see what I mean.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 14, 2008 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roger Craig was the guru on the split fingered fastball in the late 70's and 80's
Billy Swift and John Burkett owe their careers to Roger Craig.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 14, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The common injury with guys that
throw the splitter has been nerve damage between the two fingers from years of throwing.
But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night
by N Oakley on Oct 17, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nate Spears?
Really? He’ll be 24 next May and has played five games above AA. Double-A numbers weren’t overwhelmingly good, either.
I see him as an organizational guy, Triple-A roster filler.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 11, 2008 10:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thing is
who else? I guess you can make a case for a guy like Nate Samson, but Spears should get some credit for being at a higher level. He isn’t that old for AAA … not young either, but he’s not too old for AAA. I think there’s a shot that Spears is a utility infielder in the bigs, but he very well could be organizational filler. That said, he got some points from me for being a guy in the upper levels that produced and wasn’t too old for the level. He had very good numbers in AA btw.
by toonsterwu on Oct 11, 2008 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe.
Seems too mediocre to be ranked as high as you had him, though.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 11, 2008 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree if
the prospect list is based on potential. I tried to take a measure of potential, production, level.
As I noted, though, prospect lists are often dependent on who evaluates. I think most people would agree on the top 7 or 8 guys in our system. After that, it’s really wide open. I gave points to Spears and Atkins for being in the upper levels, and thus, you know more and they are less of a risk. But upside wise, they would be borderline top 20 … even in our system.
I’ve go a hard time placing a guy like Dan McDaniel any higher, and I’m already extremely high on him, perhaps moreso than most. Samson profiles with a bit more upside (potential utility player, borderline starter type – which is what Spears somewhat profiles as), but he was also in Low A. Rhee has injury issues, or he would’ve bene top 10 on ability. Tony Thomas has defensive and offensive concerns. Guyer slumped in his final month. Out of that listing, Thomas and Guyer are the ones i would contemplate moving up. BA indicated that scouts were still okay with Thomas’ bat (I’m not, the discipline was horrid … defintiely concerns there), and Guyer is a toolsy kid who has a shot at sticking in CF (although I still think he’s more corner OF pinching in CF, but he is athletic enough to handle it) and Guyer showed pop. I’ll rethink this and may slide Guyer up a bit.
That said, our system is more raw upside right now than development. I’m not huge on putting a 28 year old in the top 10 area, a backend of the rotation starter like Atkins that high, or Spears that high.
Again, early list.
by toonsterwu on Oct 11, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Compare
Spears to Mike Fontenot at the same age. Fontenot was maybe a little better, slightly more power, although I’d need to check the hitting environments for Bowie and the Eastern League compared to Tennessee and the Southern League. Other than that, almost identical. Funny that they both came over from trades with Baltimore.
I’m not very high on Spears either and maybe I’ll rank him differently, but I don’t think it’s really out of line at all. The system isn’t very good right now and if you value the things that Spears does well, then the ranking is defensible.
Spears will be in my rankings, I will add. Maybe that says more about the Cubs than Spears though.
by Josh77 on Oct 11, 2008 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fontenot vs. Spears
Fontenot is the better hitter, but by most accounts, Spears is better with the glove, so there is that balancing effect. That said, it does mean that Fontenot is a decent starting option at 2nd base, as you can live with his glove there, whereas Spears is limited to a potential utility type if he reaches the bigs, I think (defense not good enough to consistently move to short, and offense not good enough at 2nd).
As noted, my Spears ranking is more a comment on the system than a comment on Spears ability.
by toonsterwu on Oct 11, 2008 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spears, as you say...
… might have some use as a utility IF at the ML level, if he can play a competent 2B, SS and 3B (and I don’t know if he can).
Fontenot was a former #1 draft pick, and as a result, likely got a longer rope, even after he was traded by the team that picked him.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 11, 2008 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
I was wondering why Jose Ascanio didn’t make the list. Since you asked.
by Damen Jackson on Oct 11, 2008 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ascaino
I’m not sure what to make of him. He fell apart, and we have a lot of pen arms in the system. for example, I’m not sure Ascaino is any better than Rocky Roquet or Dumas Garcia.
That said, as noted in the above post, I think most people can agree on the top 7 or 8 in the system, and after that, you can order it a lot of ways and I’d be okay with it. It’s also my early list, as it’s bene a month and a half since I did one.
by toonsterwu on Oct 11, 2008 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What of Jake Fox?
Will he be a free agent as a 6-year minor league free agent, or does he have a year left? If he’s still in the Cubs system, I don’t necessarily think of him as a top-20 guy, but I’d be interested in your thoughts.
He strikes me as Hoffpauir Lite, but seemed to figure things out in AA in the second half – hitting breaking pitches, finding a defensive spot, etc. He made the Postseason All-Star Team in the SL, if I’m not mistaken.
He hits for power, and could play a few defensive positions (LF, RF, 1B). My guess is he opens 2009 at Iowa (if still with the Cubs), filling in Hoffpauir’s spot while Hoff is with the Cubs.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Oct 11, 2008 12:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ugh.
He’s got only 200 at-bats above Double-A, and will be 27 next July.
If he could catch — where he originally started — he might have been in the major leagues by now. As a corner OF/1B, I see him as not very valuable.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 11, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's where I'm coming down on it too (but I say he's better than McGehee)
Though given the infatuation with Hoffpauir, should Fox put up numbers in Iowa in the first half of next year, he might get a shot again.
Plus, he could be a Phil Nevin-type. Able to play multiple positions, including catching in a pinch. In no way do I think he’ll be Phil Nevin, but that is the career path he’ll have to take if he wants to make it.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Oct 11, 2008 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the time Nevin was Fox's age...
… he had over 500 ML at-bats.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 11, 2008 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great point.
Thanks for helping me out there, Al.
I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg
by Trey2317 on Oct 12, 2008 1:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jake Fox
My Jake Fox best case comparison has been a more athletic Matt Lecroy. That said, Lecroy did make the bigs, so there is a shot that Jake does. Jake is a bit of a free swinger, though, and he got in a rut early in the year in AAA. He started showing signs of coming out of it when the Cubs bounced him down (his AAA numbers had inched up incrementally if I remember correctly). Defensively, he’s a corner OF/1st now, limiting his value unless his bat can be consistent. I think he’s one of those quad a types that could be a last man on the bench type with his ability to pinch at catcher if need be and be a righty bat with pop off the nebch, but may also shuttle back and forth between the bigs or the minors and be organizational fodder (which every organization needs).
I think, for a prospect list, he’s maybe top 30, but could be lower. The fact that he was demoted to a lower level, along with his age, plus his limitation to 1st/corner OF positions hurts. Doesn’t mean he can’t find some role in the bigs (some guys I didn’t list could find roles in the bigs) but the value isn’t that high, at least, not for me.
by toonsterwu on Oct 11, 2008 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dae Eun Rhee
Won’t be anywhere starting 09. I am almost positive he had Tommy John. I will try to find a link for you
by MJMars on Oct 11, 2008 6:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Rhee
had TJ surgery in early July.
It’s very possible he could be back by the all-star break. But yeah, he won’t “start” the season anywhere. May is a remote possibility.
by Josh77 on Oct 11, 2008 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry should've been clearer
By start, I am referring to where he might go when he starts playing. That means, best case scenario is the summer for him. It’s probably more likely that he doesn’t pitch this year.
by toonsterwu on Oct 11, 2008 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where's Caridad?
Like the list otherwise. Those things are incredibly hard to do without people giving you crap, so well done.
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by AceCubbie on Oct 11, 2008 9:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Caridad
I contemplated Caridad, and he had a nice showing in AA. That said, by most accounts, fringy stuff with a decent fastball, and usable curve/change from what I understand. Throws strikes, but seems like an end of the rotation type or pen arm. Is he any better than Marco Carrillo, Hung-Wen Chen, Billy Muldowney (all back of the rotation projections)? He performed better in AA than Carrillo (the other two not reaching AA yet), but Caridad was also a bit older. It’s certainly a possibility for the top 20, as he was an intriguing performer in the upper levels of our system (and I was surprised when we bumped him up, as he had been somewhat average in High A). There’s a lot of folks that could’ve been in consideration at the end. I don’t buy Caridad there (I’d probably put him in the 30-40 range for me, although maybe late 20’s) but I can see someone else moving Esmailin up there.
by toonsterwu on Oct 11, 2008 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Flarhety
What is everyone hearing about his big league potential? I have enjoyed watching him play at Vanderbilt the last couple of years and would love evolve into a big leager. He was one of the more popular players, known as “Flash”, on a very popular team here in town. Big kid, showed power potential, athletic, D always seemed a little skiddish.
"Cub fans like to think of things in catastrophic terms." - Crane Kenney
by NashvilleBlue on Oct 12, 2008 4:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Re:
If he pans out, he’ll likely be a plus offensive 2nd baseman. A lot of people compare him to Utley … I’m loathe to expect that type of quality, and I’m not sure the power is similar, but that’s one comparison I’ve read before.
by toonsterwu on Oct 12, 2008 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thin and mediocre list of "top" prospects
Frankly, it’s disappointing that the minor league organization isn’t in better shape. It’s also getting to a point where early returns on Tim Wilken can start to be made. I’m not sure Wilken has gotten off to the best of starts.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 12, 2008 5:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Re:
Honestly, I don’t think Wilken has gotten off to a great start, although his first draft was hampered by the loss of picks. I think it’s probably too early to make any sort of complete judgment overall, though, as most of his guys are still in the lower levels. After 2009, though, we’ll get a far clearer picture.
by toonsterwu on Oct 12, 2008 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matriculation and trades...
…have sapped most of the major-league ready talent the club had. That’s not necessarily a bad thing – that is, after all, why you HAVE a farm system. But it’s a tall order for a farm system to produce three blue-chip trading chips (Donaldson, Patterson and Gallagher), add some key pieces to the team (Soto, Samardzija) and still have a lot left in the tank to work with for the next season.
Yeah, some guys like Colvin haven’t performed to expecations yet. Some like Vitters weren’t expected to be ready yet anyway. But the main reason the cupboard is empty is because we cooked dinner, not because we didn’t stock the shelves.
by cwyers on Oct 12, 2008 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Understand...
All that is true. That said the system is still disappointingly thin. When debate centers on the wondrous virtues of Nate Spears then your system is not in the greatest shape.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 12, 2008 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you start ranking C-grade prospects, you tend to do distasteful things like that...
…and that’s true of any system. All teams have guys like Spears rattling around, and they’re not precisely trivial.
The real thing that worries me is that, once Samardzija matriculates, the Cubs will have essentially dried up their supplies of potential front-of-the-rotation starters. The system still has some live arms that wouldn’t look out of place in the 5 spot or in a swing role, but nothing really exciting.
by cwyers on Oct 12, 2008 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is very distressing
Add in the fact that there are still some folks that question if Shark’s future is in the rotation. The overall inability to develop front of the rotation potential is troublesome, but Wilken and Co. did go all out on pitching this past year (though I don’t really know if any front of the rotation type potential exists … Shafer has to bounce back and get more velo, Carpenter has to add a third pitch and in general be more consistent, Cashner is likely headed to the pen … when we are hoping for Jay Jackson to surprise and develop, that is troublesome).
There simply is a lack of high end starting pitching potential in the system, which is more distressing than the lack of positional talent developing. Even in the lower levels, we have a lot of back end guys in that Muldowney/Carrillo/Chen/Caridad type mold. Rhee didn’t seem like front of the rotation type to me, although I guess he was the one guy in fullseason ball that felt like a possibility. I think Jackson has a slim shot, but really, my honest hope for those two would be to develop into solid middle of the rotation types (best case scenario). Heck, I can’t think of a kid in our system right now that screams front of the rotation potential in Boise and up. Maybe Suarez in Arizona … and there was a DSL arm that I liked.
by toonsterwu on Oct 12, 2008 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah.
We do have some top-flight reliever prospects, but the problem is that a failed relief prospect is at best a David Aardsma sort and at worst is nothing at all. A failed top starter prospect is still a top relief prospect and a back-of-the-rotation sort of player.
by cwyers on Oct 12, 2008 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
THis list is all too well why we shouyld offer arbritration to Wood and Demps
and let them walk to get the 4 draft picks….
"I played with one of the best pitchers in history, Greg Maddux," Zambrano said"
by fischisgod on Oct 12, 2008 6:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i agree with dempster
but i def say we keep wood. and wood loves chicago so much whos to say he wont just accept arbitration? This year Wood told Hendry to pay him whatever. Wood knew that he owed this team and this city, and he wanted to make up for it. Too be honest i bet Wood would be willing to take a one or two year deal from us even if it means turning down a longer deal. All in all Wood is a stand up guy and one hell of a pitcher when healthy. I could never imagine a team without Wood. I am 19 so Wood is the one guy that I have watched and been a fan of my whole life as a cubs fan.
by Glacier on Oct 13, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW good job on the list...
My roommate actually went to high school with Brandon Guyer and was a solid friend of his….I am somewhat rooting for him….
"I played with one of the best pitchers in history, Greg Maddux," Zambrano said"
by fischisgod on Oct 12, 2008 6:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Re:
I like Guyer. At one point this year, I thought he might have the potential to be in our top 10 (not that that is saying much). He tailed off a bit at the end. Guyer’s the “Wilken-type” pick – very athletic, toolsy kid. He showed some flashes. I’ve read that they plan on working him in CF full time, and he has the athleticism for it. If he can stick there, and his bat advances, he could be quite intriguing.
by toonsterwu on Oct 12, 2008 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was really impressed with Guyer...
… the game I saw him play at Wrigley Field. If, as you say, he could handle CF — he could rise quickly through the organization.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 12, 2008 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a question for folks
PaulThomas from AN commented on my grades over at minorleagueball (I x-posted). He suggests that outside of Rosa and Vitters, no Cubs prospects are B grade-worthy. I’m wondering what people would say to that. Some valid comments were made, comments that I can buy, but I feel fairly comfortable with my grades, particularly for the guys that I gave B’s of some sort.
by toonsterwu on Oct 12, 2008 10:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It'll be a day before I can reply there...
…so I’ll reply here. The question with Colvin is can he stick in center field defensively. If you think he can, then B- can be justified. If not, C grade is probably required.
by cwyers on Oct 13, 2008 2:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On Colvin
I don’t have much of a problem of Colvin. I can easily see C+ there. No, I don’t think he’s a CF. I actually gave him a B- because the scouting reports on him were still somewhat positive and his late surge, but I was very close to making that a C+.
Rather, the biggest debate were on the arms (Samardzija/Ceda/Cashner). I can understand Cashner – I put a Bish grade as an upside nod, but he is a pen arm and some folks don’t like upside nods. Flaherty was also a small debate, but I can buy C+ there as well.
So the main debate was Shark and Ceda, and I understand the comments on Shark. Don’t agree with it, particularly the comparison he used (Connor Robertson lacked the plus stuff which should be factored in a ranking). As for Ceda, I think the fact that he improved on his secondary pitches, improved on his command, and pumped a 12 K rate justifies a Bish grade, despite being a pen arm.
by toonsterwu on Oct 13, 2008 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever happened to...
Pawelek? I think Adam Pawelek was his name IIRC. Wasn’t he a highly touted pitcher that we drafted pretty high out of Utah? (the state, not University). He was supposed to be nasty.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on Oct 13, 2008 12:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Mark Pawelek
Former 1st round pick. He’s just fallen off the map. There were some questions about his mental toughness, some questions on conditioning in recent years. When he was drafted, that first summer, he looked intriguing. The Cubs tried changing his mechanics, he just couldn’t find any consistency with it, and things spiraled. There were some positive XST reports this past year, but that didn’t materialize in the NW League.
by toonsterwu on Oct 13, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He broke his right elbow tripping over his Playstation. Enough said.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 13, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was last season
This season he got sent home because of “responsibility” issues. Essentially, he needed to get a passport for the Boise Hawks road trip to Vancouver. Despite being told several times and with two months of notice, he never did. He was the only member of the Hawks who didn’t. So the Cubs told him that if he wasn’t going to take the season seriously, he should just go home. I don’t know whether there were other “responsibility” issues with the team or not. I have heard rumors of Cubs management thinking he wasn’t taking his injury rehabilitation seriously.
Bottom line is the guy still has a really live arm. I saw him pitch this year and was impressed with both his velocity and his movement. But he isn’t going to get by on talent alone and he doesn’t seem to want to put in the effort that he needs in order to become a major leaguer.
If getting sent home early is the wake-up call he needed to get his career back on track, then he’s got a chance to be a prospect again. But he’ll never make it unless he grows up.
by Josh77 on Oct 13, 2008 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don't get it.
How do you have the talent to make a living off of playing baseball and not work to make that happen?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Oct 13, 2008 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because some people think they don't have to work at it.
Call it “Corey Patterson Syndrome”.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 14, 2008 7:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trying to figure out...
…the complexity of the human mind as it relates to sports or any other avenue of life is one difficult task.
Have you ever noticed something about all sports, 95% of the time, the guys who hustle their asses off are the ones with less pure physical skills? Some guys are self motivated, some guys need a kick in the ass and there are others that won’t respond to much of anything. You just have to hope you don’t have too many of the last category on your club.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 14, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
A guy like Ryan Theriot with a fraction of the raw skills of Corey Patterson will go onto to have distinctly better and longer major league career.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 14, 2008 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
our system sucks
"I played with one of the best pitchers in history, Greg Maddux," Zambrano said"
by fischisgod on Oct 13, 2008 4:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
look at the bright side
it’s getting better than where it was a couple years ago …
that said, i wouldn’t be surprised if we were ranked in the bottom 5 in terms of system talent.
by toonsterwu on Oct 13, 2008 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are other sucky systems too
So who knows. But it’s very hard to rip a minor league system that just produced the Rookie of the Year.
by Josh77 on Oct 13, 2008 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
One position player...
…in the last 12-14 years is nothing to write home about. Things may be going in the right direction, but more position player development will be essential if the Cubs want to be a consistant winner.
Relying on the FA market year afer year is eventually going to put you in a untenable position because of contracts, no-trade clauses and having a bunch of high contracts on the down-side of their careers. Look at most of the teams that have won championships in the last 10 years, and they have all been able to develop more home grown talent than the Cubs. In most cases, a lot more talent.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 13, 2008 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In talking about what the system has developed...
… you ought to also consider the prospects that have been traded to other teams for major league players, because that’s one very good use of the farm system.
In that sense, you could consider Bobby Hill and Hee Seop Choi useful farm system players, because they brought the Cubs star major league players in Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez.
The jury’s still out, but it’s possible in the future we could say that Eric Patterson, Matt Murton and Josh Donaldson brought us Rich Harden. I say the jury’s still out because it’s not clear whether Harden will be a longterm success here (I sure hope he is).
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 14, 2008 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with this 100%
when we had the best farm system in baseball in 2001 no one knew what the return would be… Some of my friends still talk about that system as one of the best they have ever seen.
It was when we kept drafting injury prone pitchers and Ryan Harvey that ti all fell apart…
I just want a prospect like Jayson Heyward or Alicedes Escobar….
I really do like Vitters though
"I played with one of the best pitchers in history, Greg Maddux," Zambrano said"
by fischisgod on Oct 14, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
just a thought
Why was our system #1 back then and why is it better than what we have at this point? We’ve just produced a frontline shortstop, and all star catcher that will win the ROY, a possible decent role player in Hoffpauir and a possible starter/setup/closer in Samardzija and a setup/closer in Marmol in the last three years, so what else do people want? The Yankees with all their money are in a much worse situation when it comes to their farm system and what they’ve produced in since the early 90’s.
by Slamdog on Oct 15, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The past and the present
First the Yankees – Their farm system is actually pretty solid right now, not great, but solid. They’ve recommitted to it.
As for us, the reason our system was ranked highly in the early part of this century was due to the pitching depth. We drafted and signed loads and loads of pitching that was well-regarded. I mean, we had other pieces, but the pitching was what attracted attention (I remember one BA chat when i Was in college where the commentator said that we had the deepest system of arms). Thing is, at that time, it was an upside system, and the result was, a lot of those arms failed to pan out. Some were moved, some stalled, and some got hurt. This isn’t to say that we didn’t have positional talent … once upon a time, some folks thought Brian Dopirak was going to be a monster (there were those that thought he would flame out in AA as well because of the swing). Remember David Kelton? Remember when first base depth was considered deep in our system (Brandon Sing, Micah Hoffpauir, Brian Dopirak, Hee Seop Choi, Kevin Collins, and others back then).
by toonsterwu on Oct 15, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely remember those days.
Question for you – do you believe the talent was poorly developed or poorly scouted/drafted? Or what?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Oct 15, 2008 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd lean to
a bit of both, to be honest. I also feel like, off the top, that we had a tendency to rush some guys back then.
by toonsterwu on Oct 15, 2008 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets hear the Yankee role call/other things
Just curious to what makes them so solid and what kind of money was spent. (Yanks). Thanks for the explanation of of those players that made the Cubs the #1 system. With that expanation, do you think they were overated and Hoffpauir being 13th rounder wasnt really mentioned much with that crew. So the newer crew of Cubs seems to be better than the number 1 rated crew and we havent even skimmed the surface yet. Its good to talk and thank you for thoughts and honesty.
by Slamdog on Oct 15, 2008 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand that...
…but if you really dig into this and compare the Cub’s track record to other clubs, they are clearly towards the bottom in this area.
When you have to rely on FA as much as the Cubs have, you are building a house of cards to a degree and your window to win, is going to be relatively short before you are overpaying for guys who are past their prime. That is, unless you have an acceptable level of talent coming from your system, which gives you cheap production and allows you to cherry pick your holes (less often) in the FA market.
IMO, if the Cubs don’t win a championship in the next 2 years and the farm has not produced a surprise player or two (position wise) that can step in, it is possible you will see a period of Cub teams that are not in a position to compete for a playoff spot – unless, the new owner wants to spend 160-170 million.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 14, 2008 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm, let's see
Position players that became quality everyday major league ballplayers…
1988 – Rafael Palmiero
1989 – Mark Grace
…
…
…
…
2008 – Geovany Soto
Yep, the Cub minor league system has been firing on all cylinders for years.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 13, 2008 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey - you forgot
Rick Wilkins.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Oct 13, 2008 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really wanted to add this name into the mix
Jim Bullinger.
by toonsterwu on Oct 13, 2008 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess you could say that the Cubs do really well
developing talent from Louisiana.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Oct 13, 2008 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Missing a couple there...
Kerry Wood
Carlos Marmol
But yea pretty bad
by Bleeding Cubbie Blue on Oct 13, 2008 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You forgot one more.
Carlos Zambrano
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 14, 2008 7:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My focus was on position players as anybody can plainly see...
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 14, 2008 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitching is important...
…but your position players are on the field every day and are key to developing a core group that can help you compete over a period of time.
Soto was a nice piece of work, but the long droubt in this area has put immense pressure on their payroll and forced them to shop too much. The concentration has to be on catchers, middle infielders and CF as the core of your prospect development. These guys can be the backbone of your club when they arrive and they also will have more trade value if you need to shop them.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Oct 14, 2008 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ryan Theriot
moron. Doug Glanville. Eric Hinske. Corey Patterson has been a regular. And somehow you seem to think all the pitchers the system developed don’t count, which is wrong because the Cubs farm system has focused on developing pitching over hitting. It’s been a conscious choice.
The problem is, if the guy isn’t a all-star, you say he’s a failure. By that definition, you’re the biggest failure around here.
Of course, it’s pretty clear you hate the Cubs and you just come here to try to make everyone as f$%^ing miserable as you are.
OK. Go get all self-righteous about how you see everything clearly now and how everyone else lives in a fairy tale now. I’ve heard your stupid rants before.
by Josh77 on Oct 14, 2008 12:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shut up
You’re just ticked off because somebody actually posted a thoughtful and well-researched thread about the Cub minor league system as opposed to verbalizing a box score.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 14, 2008 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
MDBNIU
It’s wearisome for those of us who do appreciate the work Josh does to respond and let Josh know his work is appreciated everytime you attack his daily updates. You made your requests known to him. He doesn’t have the time and/or inclination to do what you want. Please just let it go. Or take toonsterwu’s own example and engage Josh in substantive debate instead of inappropriately running down his work. I’ve never seen Josh fail to answer question or debate on a prospect whenever anyone wants more substance.
I’ve expressed frustration in the past for your debate tactics, MDBNIU, but all-in-all I generally appreciate your point of view being included in the BCB community. Nevertheless, to me, this post crosses the line.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Oct 14, 2008 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell you what...
Why don’t you read the post from Josh that preceded mine before you preach proper blog behavior to me.
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 14, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Line
I didn’t like Josh’s post, and you had every right to respond angrily. Most of the time I don’t like a post or a poster’s attitude I just ignore it. That doesn’t mean others can’t respond however they want.
What specifically crosses the line in my perspective, is the ongoing campaign against “verbalizing a box score.”
Josh made a commitment to collect the Cubs’ minor league performances and put them all in one place for us. That takes a lot of time and he doesn’t get paid to do it. To run down something Josh gives as a free service is just not right in my opinion. There are many who appreciate what he does – the near immediate rec’ing of his updates is evidence of that. But too often the negative feedback of a minority outweighs the less-passionate positive feedback of the majority.
It would be a shame if BCB lost Josh’s updates. If you don’t feel the same way – please, just ignore his posts.
All I’m telling you is that I don’t like this campaign and why. Take it or leave it. I look forward to having other discussions with you.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Oct 14, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not ripping the system
I think it’s headed in the right direction, at least, moreso than before. That said, saying the system might be ranked in the bottom 5 in terms of system talent doesn’t mean the system lacks talent (I know, sounds paradoxical). What it means is that the system is lacking in developed talent.
That said … we are lacking in a lot of upside. Even, as I discussed with cwyers above I think, if we go down the line, all the way to DSL ball, there really aren’t many apparent front of the rotation guys. Some guys will develop, and there is some raw ability.
Positionally, it’s not like we are deep either. We’ve gotten into a habit of drafting these undersized CF types (the Tony Campana’s of the world). I actually like Campana, but for every guy like that that succeeds, there’s about 5 of them that struggle. Even the guys that reach the bigs are often backups (Reggie Willits) unless they have something real exceptional to their toolset.
Here’s the thing … around 2003, we had a deep and talented system. Having a deep and talented system doesn’t mean much. A lot of arms failed to develop from that period. About 3 years ago, we were bad. We didn’t have a bad system, as we had a lot of guys that looked to see a cup of tea in the bigs, but we lacked any key talent, we lacked upside. Yet, during the last few years, useful players have been added, and we’ve had some late bloomers (Theriot/Soto/Hoffpauir). What we have now is a system that has some upside, which I am happy about.
All in all, the idea of system rankings is simply for discussion. It isn’t ripping a system to discuss the talent within it.
Btw, off my rough lists for all 30 teams, I’d place us about 23, but there’s about a dozen teams or so where I’m only decently versed in the top 10 or so guys and know very little beyond that.
by toonsterwu on Oct 13, 2008 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It'll never go out of style for the cynics to rip the farm system
because you will always be able to point to more guys who aren’t stars than that are. But the fact of the matter is that our farm system produced a lot these past few years such that we were fielding a playoff team that had a starting C, a starting 2B, a starting SS, and two of our best relievers all from the farm. Plus, our best starter came from a trade that emptied out the farm system. That compares fairly well with the vaunted LA farm system, which had a similar showing in Billingsley, Martin, DeWitt, Kemp, their relief arms and Manny from LaRoche. There’s a lot of projection left in those LA prospects, sure, but in terms of where we are now, the Cubs system has done better than most people expected.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Oct 13, 2008 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
I’m not ripping the farm system. We are going to have productive players come up. We have a lot of pen depth, most of which I didn’t include in the top 20. We’ll have some solid role players. I think guys like Josh Kroeger and Doug Deeds couid fill a role … if given the opportunity. All that said, I don’t think anyone would deny that our farm isn’t, well, to say the least, at the top of the charts right now.
Out of curiousity, who’s the starting 2nd baseman that came from the farm that you are referring to? Fontenot was an acquisition, as was DeRosa.
by toonsterwu on Oct 13, 2008 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I forgot we had acquired Fontenot
but you could say our system helped develop him.
And I don’t think you, toonsterwu, are ripping the farm system. I’ve read other people on too many other occassions just come into a chat about prospects and throw the bomb of “The Cubs farm system sucks and never produces anything.” Sure, the system has its flaws and sure, we can talk about those. But we’ve also got a system that’s been advertised as fruitless for the past several years, even as it has produced some nice fruit. No one was expecting Soto to become ROY until his breakout year. Samardzija was written off by a ton of people. Theriot and Fontenot were surprises.
Given that reality, I think posts like yours are better conversations than the simply cynical ones – asking just what we have in the farm. Thanks for your work.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on Oct 14, 2008 6:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't mean to imply
that you’re ripping the system. I’m pretty down on the system right now myself. I’m just saying that to look on the bright side, the system just produced the ROY.
by Josh77 on Oct 14, 2008 12:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right now it does
"What pressure should I have on me? There's no pressure on me." -- Lou Piniella (10/3/08)
by MDBNIU on Oct 13, 2008 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I'll throw a name out there.
Alex Maestri. Josh, I know you’ve been a big fan of his. Any reason he doesn’t make the Top 20?
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
by dat cubfan daver on Oct 14, 2008 1:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He had a descent year at Daytona. Got roughed up in
two starts at Tenn, but not bad. Had a 1.27 WHIP a Daytona and seems to have pretty good control. He’s only 23, so he still time to advance. Seems like a descent enough guy. What do you think?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 14, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I really know about him...
…is what I’ve read in Josh’s updates and in the article Josh wrote for Wrigley Season Ticket. My impression was he was a fairly decent prospect – not “top” by any means, but with some potential. Of course, his background as the Cubs first Italian import is interesting, too.
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
by dat cubfan daver on Oct 14, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I hear that an un-tapped market over there. I heard his main
problem was that he kept tipping off his pitches because he kept wanting to use his hands while he was talking to his catcher!
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 14, 2008 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maestri
The injury hurt him this year. I wasn’t sure where exactly to put him partly because of the injury. In the end, in this early list (and this is my early list, I’m still trying to work to 50, but each time I get around 30, I feel like I could order the list 101 ways), along with the injury factor was the fact that Alessandro is still a pen arm. Unless his third pitch picks up, he’s still Michael Wuertz-ish, and when you factor in the injury, I don’t know if I would change my mind and slide him into the top 20, when there’s about 10 more guys that I’m more inclined to move in there.
Doesn’t mean Maestri has little value to me. I think Maestri can develop into a useful player. But we have so many pen arms, and most of them didn’t make it into my list (the lefties Lambert and Papelbon, Dumas Garcia, Rocky Roquet, and Maestri).
by toonsterwu on Oct 14, 2008 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Roquet...
… why didn’t he make the list?
(And same for Rebel Ridling.)
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 14, 2008 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roquet and Rebel
I wonder about Roquet’s control. If I was to pick middle relief arms to put in there, I’d go Garcia, whose stuff is supposedly equal or better than Roquet’s, and has a tricky delivery to hide pitches (well, for righty middle relievers. For a lefty middle reliever, I’d probably still go Lambert over Papelbon, as Lambert has better stuff, but Jeremy closed the gap) Roquet’s got good stuff … if he could ever get the control, he could be intriguing, but then, the age also was a small negative.
Rebel … I am a huge fan … particularly considering he has some raw power that our system lacks. That said, he’s got some discipline and swing work ahead. Rebel would probaly be in the 30’s for me. I am a big fan, though.
Like I said earlier, though, still going through the list, so nothing’s final. Also, I think you can find guys that rank our 9 through, say, 40 prospects in different order as the talent isn’t that different.
Wow, 100 responses to this thread? Usually when I do this on the Cubs board, gets around 20-30 responses and it’s shelved.
by toonsterwu on Oct 14, 2008 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's because this site has a lot of really involved people who love all aspects of the organization.
I agree with you that once you get past #10, it’s a crapshoot.
A year ago you might have said that you’d have picked Maestri over those guys, but he regressed and got hurt. A year from now that could change again.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 14, 2008 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maestri didn't really regress
If that’s the way I made it sound, I apologize. He was actually decent as a starter in high A (5-3, 3.69 ERA, 15 G, 14 GS, 1.27 WHIP). I just don’t think he showed enough to really change my mind about him in that, I still think he’s suited to the pen.
That said, the more I think about Maestri’s season at Daytona, the more I am wondering if I have him too low (37 right now). I think I need to rethink how much his showing in Daytona factors in. I could see me moving him back up to top 25 status, ahead of some of the AZL kids in that range.
by toonsterwu on Oct 14, 2008 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, OK.
I’d forgotten that he’d suffered an injury. Thanks!
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
by dat cubfan daver on Oct 14, 2008 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whats the story with Jovan Rosa
I checked the box scores everyday and he really never stood out to me.. Like the doubles…
"I played with one of the best pitchers in history, Greg Maddux," Zambrano said"
by fischisgod on Oct 14, 2008 9:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Rosa
I’m a huge fan of Rosa. A lot of it is projection. In school, he was a middle infielder (I believe he went to a JC … I’m too lazy to check right now). The Cubs tried him at 3rd, but he was a butcher there. With Vitters looking more comfortable at 3rd and ticketed for Peoria, and with Marquez Smith also comfortable at 3rd and likely ticketed for Daytona, I think Rosa will get a chance to settle in at first, which is where he likely heads, unless they try the OF. If he’s at first next year, if all goes well, he could be in line to replace Derrek Lee when Lee’s contract is up, assuming no separate moves have been made.
Statistically, he had one down month. Even with that month, he had a solid line for the MWL. I don’t think he’ll ever be smooth with the glove, but he should be okay for first. The big question is the power. Will it develop? I sent BA an email this summer, and they were pretty encouraged about Jovan’s power potential. His body needs to fill out some more. I don’t think any major swing changes need to be made, as he has a smooth stroke. He’s not going to crush 30-40 HR’s consistently, but he could be a strong option, I think, if all develops well that hits for solid 1st base power while hitting for a good average.
A lot of projection, but a lot to be excited about … especially considering our system.
by toonsterwu on Oct 14, 2008 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks!
appreciate the job you are doing
"I played with one of the best pitchers in history, Greg Maddux," Zambrano said"
by fischisgod on Oct 15, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jovan Rosa+
Rosa was a 22nd round DNF in 2006 out of Lake City CC in Florida. Also Toon, with Lansford possibly pitching next year after his instructional league appearances on the mound, Marquez Smith could move to Tennessee with Rosa possibly going to Daytona next year.
by Slamdog on Oct 15, 2008 11:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That is possible
I don’t know how serious this Lansford pitching thing is. If it’s serious (makes some sense, as no one expected his bat to really play), I could see that happen … but Smith’s bat didn’t show that much in Daytona when it was bumped up. One possibility is that Kyle Reynolds handles a large chunk of 3rd base at the start of Tennessee’s season with McGehee at 3rd in Iowa and perhaps Kroeger/Deeds handling first at Iowa.
by toonsterwu on Oct 15, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slam
I think you’re mistaken on Josh Lansford pitching. I went through the Mesa Solar Sox stats and I don’t see him listed. Could you have possibly seen Jared Lansford (his brother … a pitcher) listed and got it mixed up? If not, could you point me to Josh Lansford’s pitching stats in AFL?
by toonsterwu on Oct 15, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arizona Instructional
He showed up there the last two weeks and read some stuff from Arizona Phil on him and some people said he threw between 89-93 with some spin on his breaking stuff. He’s not in the Arizona Fall League your right!
by Slamdog on Oct 15, 2008 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting.
Hey, you can never have too many pitchers in camp. If Josh Lansford throws like that with decent breaking stuff, why not? He wasn’t going anywhere as an infielder.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Oct 15, 2008 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I must’ve missed that TCR update. Gonna go flip through it now. He always hold some potential as a pitcher, like his brother.
by toonsterwu on Oct 15, 2008 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smith 2
Smith was dinged up with a bad hammy prior to going to Daytona and acquired a hand injury when he was in Daytona with it being in his 1st full season. Overall thou he had a pretty nice yr hitting 278 overall with 27 doubles and 16 home runs will playing a very underated 3rd base and according to some quotes from inside the Cub org that he plays a decent 2nd base.
by Slamdog on Oct 15, 2008 12:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Marquez
Was okay playing 2nd. A bit shaky, which is somewhat understandable, but okay. He was better, although still shaky, at 3rd. With the 2nd base depth in our system, though (arguably the deepest spot, particularly if you consider Nate Samson and Ryan Flaherty future 2nd basemen as well), I don’t know if they move him there. Outside of Vitters, Smith is the only other real legit 3rd base target (unless Rosa’s d improves or Flaherty moves to 3rd) unless you consider some kids that were down in AZL this past year.
by toonsterwu on Oct 15, 2008 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No 3rd basemans in AZL
Didnt look like there’s much coming out of the AZL from 3rd base, but the middle infield spots look real good with Castro, Watkins and Lake.
by Slamdog on Oct 15, 2008 5:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Lake
Looks like a possible 2nd/3rd projection, depending on his body matures.
As for Watkins, I think he’ll end up in the OF. Just a gut feeling on that …
by toonsterwu on Oct 15, 2008 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could be
You might be right about Watkins, but Az Phil said he played well in instructional league and he hit well over 300 in AZL despite arriving pretty late and you know alot of people said Thomas at 2nd base wasnt a good fielder, had a great year fielding in the FSL with only 6 errors all year which is stunning, because the way Baseball America tells it, you would have thought especially in his 1st year he would make at least 20 plus errors. I think someone really missed that boat. On thee other side of that it looks like it did affect his bat some, but he did really come back in the FSL playoffs, hitting almost 500 and being the MVP.
by Slamdog on Oct 15, 2008 9:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
RE:
Reason I think Watkins might end up in the OF is because he likely won’t stick at short and we have depth at 2nd. We have a lot of CF types, but not a lot of CF upside (a lot of them are in that smallish, leadoff hitter type mold). Watkins could offer some upside there, just a gut guess.
I haven’t heard many positive reports on Thomas’ glove improving. I am hopeful he can stick at 2nd, but it seems like a lot of folks aren’t certain. During the year, I was disappointed in his bat. But after some reflection, which may lead to me sliding him up my own list, his bat was about as expected … which considering he skipped low A and was a relatively raw collegian … is okay. Has to show improvement next year, though, particularly with the discipline. If we fast track Ryan Flaherty by sliding him to 2nd, we very well could see Thomas developed as a CF of the future type.
by toonsterwu on Oct 15, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry to bump this thread so late...
But I’m just coming out of my post-season hibernation and had a questions…
Did you consider Billy Petrick for the list at all? His parents are close friends of my parents (from the Morris area) and I rarely hear anything about him anymore… he had a cup of coffee with the big league club a while back, and from what I heard was pretty promising… is he hurt, traded, demoted… dead? Any word?
by lswaidz on Oct 21, 2008 11:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He was hurt most of the season
He was back and pitching in instructs. He hasn’t been dropped off the 40-man yet so that’s good news for him.
On the Daytona roster, he was listed as “suspended.” That was actually a clerical error on the Cubs part, according to Oneri Fleita. But he was out with shoulder problems for 95% of the season.
by Raisin on Oct 21, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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