Building A Cubs Champion: Introducing Your 2009 Chicago Cubs
This is the one you've all been waiting for -- the thoughts I have about what sort of 25-man roster, including position players, pitching rotation and bullpen I think the Cubs should put on the field in 2009. I'm also going to make a comment or two on the coaching staff, which by and large did a fine job in 2008 (well, at least until October 1, they did). This is a long post, so I'm going to make you click through to read the rest, rather than show about 3,500 words on the front page. (You're about to find out why this took me so long!)

The key question that must have Jim Hendry and Lou Piniella and everyone else in Cubs baseball management scratching their heads is, "How could a team that won 97 games in the regular season not only lose in the playoffs, but look like a bunch of scared high school kids?"
If you have the definitive answer to that question, incidentally, let Hendry know right away. I'm sure he'd like to know.
The knee-jerk response, of course, would be to pull out the handy 2009 complete free agent list and choose one from column A, one from column B; simply identify the best players and throw money at them until it sticks, increase the payroll, because, after all, that's the best way to win, right?
It's not, and I think that should be obvious by now -- the Yankees of the last several years prove that out. Since they started signing every player in baseball, as that classic 2003 Onion article put so cleverly, they have made the playoffs every season (until 2008), but have won no World Series since 2000 and made it twice in the eight years following, without a win.
We'd take that, of course, but the lesson is: when the Yankees were winning titles, they did it through putting a fine team on the field that had, in large part, been developed in their own system, complemented with good role players (Scott Brosius, Paul O'Neill), instead of simply trying to put an All-Star team on the field. It is worth noting that as soon as Alex Rodriguez left the Mariners, they had several of the best seasons in their history -- and as soon as he signed with the Rangers, they had three of the worst in theirs. Following his signing with the Yankees, they ended a run of appearing in six World Series in eight years -- they haven't been there since. Now, I'm not blaming A-Rod for the Yankees' failures; the point is that simply salivating after someone because he's on a free agent list and puts up gaudy statistics doesn't make a team a winner.
Another team that's a poster child for spending money foolishly is the Dodgers. Sure, they made the playoffs, largely because Manny went nuts there for two months. Without him they'd likely have finished under .500, and I'd bet they'd like back all the money they wasted on Juan Pierre, Andruw Jones and Jason Schmidt, three of the worst free-agent signings ever.
So for the Cubs, I say stay away from the big-time free agent signings; more often than not, they fail -- though I think Alfonso Soriano has helped the Cubs, he appears to NOT be a good postseason performer and I know there are many here who'd rather see him gone (note: ain't gonna happen). I think the Cubs can, without major surgery and with making some very minor tweaks including adding the very role players that have helped some teams win, take that next step to a title.
It's important to first remember that Jim Hendry is on the cusp of signing a contract extension that will, essentially, keep him and his management team in place for three more years. Since it seems clear that Lou Piniella will not manage past 2010, that also means two other things: that the Cubs will, as they have the last two years, go all out to win sometime before Lou goes, and also that Hendry will be the one to put in place Lou's successor. The 2009 Cubs may be built with both things in mind -- win now, and also put a base in place that will help them be a perennial contender. Further, keep in mind that as long as Lou is in charge, players he likes are going to play no matter how much any of us would like them gone, and players in Lou's doghouse get there and stay there. Just ask Scott Eyre about that -- he's a happy escapee from that doghouse, now that he's in the World Series.
So let's begin -- as is traditional with these sorts of thoughts, I'm going to organize them by position. And as I go through by position, I'll try to construct a logical and reasonable facsimile of what I think the April 6, 2009 25-man roster will look like.
Catcher: here's one place where the Cubs don't have to worry. Geovany Soto hasn't yet been named 2008 NL Rookie of the Year, but he will be, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't unanimous (and no, I don't want to hear the VORP arguments about Joey Votto. Soto was far more valuable to his team than Votto, and was outstanding at a far more difficult defensive position). Where some of us disagree is over the value of Henry Blanco, who, admittedly, is getting old at 38. His value as a mentor to Soto cannot be overstated. Is he worth his $3 million option? I say yes, although I have heard the Cubs are going to attempt to decline it and sign him to a lower-value deal. To do so they may have to give him two years. I'd still do it.
First base: Here's where we begin to dismantle the two-time division champions. Longtime GM Branch Rickey used to say, "Better to trade someone a year too early than a year too late". Very true, I think. And with that, I think it's time for the Cubs to say goodbye to Derrek Lee. D-Lee is a class act and has given us five (mostly) good years. He will be 34 next September, has two years left on his deal, and a year from now I suspect will be almost untradeable. With that, unload him to the Giants. D-Lee is a native of northern California (Sacramento); the Giants seem to like getting hold of older players who still have something left in the tank; and they can afford him. In return, I'd like Matt Cain and lefty reliever Alex Hinshaw. Don't slot Cain into the rotation yet, though; I'll explain why later.
To replace Lee, it will require a trade and a free agent signing; I'm going to suggest a platoon, and there's a reason for that. First, acquire Aubrey Huff from the Orioles. Yes, I'm aware that it's nearly impossible to trade with the dithering Andy MacPhail, but I'm guessing it'd be relatively easy to take Huff's contract ($8 million in 2009) off MacPhail's hands. Send them Sean Marshall, Ronny Cedeno, Michael Wuertz and Micah Hoffpauir for Huff and Luke Scott, who's in line for a large raise as an arb-eligible player in 2009. While Huff had a fine year playing full-time, as a platoon player he'd be even better -- he hit .321/.382/.607 vs. RHP. You'd be giving the Orioles a rotation starter, a starting SS, a strong setup man, and someone who could replace Huff at DH (Hoffpauir). They already have a replacement for Scott in Luis Montanez, the former Cub #1 draft pick at SS who, shockingly, has apparently reinvented himself as a power-hitting outfielder. This deal makes sense for both teams, and later, you'll find out the reason I want Scott. See below, also, for Huff's platoon partner.
Second base: Mark DeRosa is on the last year of his three-year deal, coming off a career year. He'll be 34 in February and isn't likely to replicate his 2008 season. Still, even if he played only at his 2007 level, he's a valuable player who can play multiple positions, and Mike Fontenot is a capable backup. Here, we make no changes.
Shortstop: The bottom line at SS is this: no matter how many SS are free agents (Furcal, Cristian Guzman, Orlando Cabrera, etc.) or may be available by trade (Khalil Greene), Lou loves Ryan Theriot. I don't want to start another round of Theriot-bashing here, but the reality of things is: no matter what any of us thinks, Ryan Theriot is going to be the Cubs' starting SS in 2009.
Third base: Aramis Ramirez.
Backup infield: As noted above, Mike Fontenot returns as the backup 2B. But you are going to need another backup middle infielder, because above I dealt away Ronny Cedeno, and perhaps another hitter. Here's where you go to the bottom rungs of the free-agent list and sign someone: perhaps Alex Cintron, who the Cubs had in camp last spring and who nearly made the team. Others: Felipe Lopez can play several positions and is only 28; Mark Loretta is versatile but is 36; Pablo Ozuna had a couple decent years as a White Sox backup; Juan Uribe can also play several positions, but might want a starting job; Willie Bloomquist can also play multiple spots and played for Lou in Seattle.
Of those, I think I'd go for Cintron, who is a switch-hitter and wouldn't be that expensive (he made $1.9 million in 2008 and $1.6 million in 2007 -- you could probably have him for about $2.2 million.
And then I'd sign Kevin Millar to back up first base and outfield. Yes, this is likely to be controversial -- Millar, after all, is 37 and had a pretty bad year in 2008. But Ryan Dempster, who was supposedly the "loosen up" leader in the clubhouse, says he'd love to play with Millar (again -- they were Marlins teammates from 1998-2002), and Millar is the one credited with inventing the Red Sox "idiots", the ones who made the amazing comeback in 2004, the guys who won because they threw off the yoke of jinxes. Millar does have some power (25 doubles, 20 HR last year) and has a .361 lifetime OBA. But there is value in him beyond his statistics, and yes, that is important when you play a game where 25 men basically spend six months together in close proximity.
Outfield: We are stuck with Alfonso Soriano. Phil Rogers' column yesterday suggested Jim Hendry might go after Manny Ramirez, but to do so would require dumping Soriano's deal (if you hate him in LF, you'd despise him in RF). The Dodgers, presuming they'd lose Manny, might be interested -- but in order to push Soriano off on them, you'd probably have to take one or more of LA's bad contracts (the same Pierre, Jones and Schmidt deals I mentioned above). I personally don't have the least bit of interest in any of those three.
So keep Soriano. He can carry a team, at least in the regular season, and then hopefully, someone else can in October.
In center field, I'd give one more year to the productive platoon of Reed Johnson and Jim Edmonds. It will not come as cheaply as the $1.6 million combined the Cubs paid to those two last year -- Johnson's probably in line for a $4-$5 million one year deal (if not a multiyear deal) and Edmonds will probably get close to the $8 million he got combined from the Cardinals and Padres in 2008. Yes, it's a risk; there's always the risk that Edmonds could fall off the face of the Earth in 2009. But Cub CF -- and Johnson and Edmonds combined account for 139 of the 161 games there -- hit .290/.374/.484 with 23 HR and 101 RBI. Even 2/3 of that production would be great, considering Johnson and Edmonds provide fine defense.
Now, you're going to find out why I made that deal with the Orioles to include Luke Scott. Meet your 2009 starting right fielder, Luke Scott. I firmly believe that the Cubs and Kosuke Fukudome are going to reach an agreement that will allow both sides to, with face saved, get out of the remaining three years of the deal signed last year -- probably with several million dollars of buyout -- and Dome, who is deep in Lou's doghouse (and you all know that once there it's nearly impossible to get out), will return to Japan. Scott, who hits RHP very well (.269/.346/.492 last year) would play most of the games, with Mark DeRosa playing some others and Millar perhaps a handful (though he hasn't played any RF since 2005).
So your Opening Day 2009 Cubs position player roster, if I'm in charge, reads as follows:
C: Geovany Soto, Henry Blanco 1B: Aubrey Huff, Kevin Millar 2B: Mark DeRosa, Mike Fontenot SS: Ryan Theriot 3B: Aramis Ramirez INF: Alex Cintron OF: Alfonso Soriano, Reed Johnson, Jim Edmonds, Luke Scott
13 position players would begin the season, just as last year. You'll note Felix Pie is not listed there, and you're about to find out why.
Starting pitchers: Re-sign Ryan Dempster to a three-year deal with a mutual option for a fourth season. The dollar amount isn't that critical because Dempster loves playing in Chicago and would likely give Jim Hendry a hometown discount, particularly after Hendry signs Dempster's buddy Millar. There is risk here: Dempster was horrid in the NLDS and yes, he could regress. But I think Dempster learned his lesson last offseason and is willing to work hard to keep his near-Cy Young form.
Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly and Rich Harden are under contract for 2009 and, presuming they all keep in shape and work to fix any unresolved problems left over from '08, will be, along with Dempster, one of the best top fours in baseball in 2009.
Jason Marquis, who was the best fifth starter in the game last year, will, under my scenario, bid a fond farewell to the Cubs and re-emerge in his hometown, New York, for either the Mets or Yankees, both of whom could use an inning-eater like Marquis. In return for one of the Big Apple teams taking over the $9.875 million left on Marquis' contract, all the Cubs require is to get a face-saving prospect or two.
And that leaves the fifth spot open. But you're saying, having read my epic saga so far, "Wait! Didn't you trade for Matt Cain 17 paragraphs and a blockquote ago?"
Yes, I did, but Cain isn't going to pitch a single inning in a Cub uniform. Instead, he's headed to the Marlins, along with Felix Pie (told ya I'd get to that!) in exchange for Ricky Nolasco.
The reason Nolasco is on the trading block should be obvious. The Marlins operated with the lowest payroll in the majors last year, and Nolasco made the major league minimum of $390,000. His 15-8, 3.52 season with 186 K's (8th in the NL) made him one of the top pitchers in the league last year, and he's arb-eligible... which would probably make him a salary of at least $7 or $8 million, which would be close to half the Marlins' total payroll. There's no way they'll do that. Cain is scheduled to make a more reasonable $2.65 million in 2009 and $4.5 million in 2010; the Marlins can handle that and Cain becomes their #1 or #2 starter, and Pie their starting CF (freeing up Jeremy Hermida for trade, and if the Luke Scott deal becomes impossible, Hermida, who is 9-for-27 with 4 HR lifetime in Wrigley Field, might be an enticing target, and Sean Marshall and Michael Wuertz, who I'd send to Baltimore for Scott, could be the starting point for a deal for Hermida, or you could make one huge deal for Hermida and Nolasco). Finally, getting Nolasco back, just at the time he's probably headed to his peak years (he's 26 in December) would right the massive wrong Jim Hendry did when he sent him away for Juan Pierre three winters ago.
Your 2009 Cub starting rotation:
Ryan Dempster, Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly, Rich Harden, and Ricky Nolasco (not necessarily in that order).
Bullpen: Just as I'd re-sign Dempster, I'd re-sign Kerry Wood to a two-year deal to close with a mutual option third year. Carlos Marmol returns to set Wood up, and Jeff Samardzija (who I still think is better suited to relief than starting) fills the 7th-inning role that Bob Howry failed so miserably at for most of 2008. Howry departs to free agency -- he might, because the free-agent rankings take into account the last two years, even bring a draft pick if someone signs him.
Alex Hinshaw, acquired from the Giants, becomes the LOOGY (LHB hit .205 with only 1 HR off him last year); Neal Cotts remains as another lefty who can go longer. Chad Gaudin and Angel Guzman should round out the bullpen, or perhaps some other righthander will come out of spring training, or there are over 80 other free-agent relievers on the above-linked free-agent list.
Your 2009 Cubs bullpen:
Kerry Wood, Carlos Marmol, Jeff Samardzija, Chad Gaudin, Angel Guzman, Alex Hinshaw, Neal Cotts
I'm not going to get into specific dollar amounts, but just looking over what I've done here, I have removed $13 million of Derrek Lee's deal (and Bob Howry's $3 million and the $1.2 million Daryle Ward earned is gone too); that's $17.2 million gone, probably eaten up with the additional money paid to Johnson, Edmonds, Dempster and Wood (above and beyond what those men made in 2008, a total of $15.5 million -- it'll take about twice that to retain those four). In addition, subtracting the $11.5 million that was due to Kosuke Fukudome in 2009 and Jason Marquis' $9.875 million should cover Aubrey Huff's $8 million and whatever is paid to Luke Scott and Ricky Nolasco. That might make this roster cost virtually the same as the 2008 team, something that ought to be manageable given the uncertain state of the sale of the team and the overall economy.
And that, I believe, is how you build a team. Not "blowing it up", not throwing multiple millions of dollars at a free-agent dartboard, but carefully, taking advantage of the assets you already have to keep a team performing at a high level, and take it to the next one.
Manager/coaches: I still like Lou Piniella, but just as any manager will when you get to know him well enough, he drives us nuts with some of his in-game decisions and use of his bench and bullpen. One thing that I think Lou failed us in both last year and this is his approach to the postseason. He managed games in the NLDS in 2007 and 2008 as if it were May 1, not October 1. When Ryan Dempster was in trouble in game 1, why wasn't Ted Lilly -- who wasn't going to pitch for three more days -- warming up? Other teams use starters in relief in the postseason; why can't the Cubs? That's just one example. The fact that Lou didn't really treat the last week, against contending teams, as playoff type games, bothers me, especially the last regular season game vs. Milwaukee, where he put a spring-training pitching staff out there. We all know what might have happened had the Cubs won that game, which would have forced a Brewers/Mets playoff -- what if the Mets had won that?
Anyway, that's done and gone. But Lou has to learn a lesson from those failures, too.
I think the entire coaching staff will return, with the possible exception of Matt Sinatro, who may go back to Seattle. If that happens, do not be surprised to see a familiar face, a very popular one, on the coaching lines at first base in 2009 -- Ryne Sandberg. Sandberg did a very good job at Peoria the last two years, improving from year to year, and he has made no secret of his desire to manage in the big leagues. Promoting him to the major league coaching staff would be a good first step toward getting him the experience he needs to do that.
So there you have it -- what I'd do, starting as soon as possible, to give the Cubs a winning roster in 2009. Naturally, there are always the unforeseen -- injuries, declines, career years -- but this, rather than just buying every free agent in sight, I think is the way to do it. These are, FWIW, my thoughts only and don't represent any inside information... except for exactly one of the potential transactions I've mentioned, which I have heard the Cubs are interested in making. Speculate away -- I'm not telling. Go Cubs. Let's win it all in '09.
Comments
Have been looking forward to this!
Thanks Al, now I have something to do at work on a Monday!
Football and basketball are just things to do between baseball seasons.
by MetsSuck on
Oct 20, 2008 8:28 AM CDT
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Hope I'm not responsible for you getting in trouble on the job!
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 8:35 AM CDT
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No worries there.
I can get in plenty of trouble without help.
Football and basketball are just things to do between baseball seasons.
by MetsSuck on
Oct 20, 2008 10:56 AM CDT
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Magnum Opus Indeed!
Well thought out and nicely presented. Now, if Jim Hendry reads BCB …
Ya gotta love a team with a shortstop named TheRiot ...
by StampMe on
Oct 20, 2008 8:39 AM CDT
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Someone should email it to him.
Or heck just print it out and slip it under his door.
by 100yearitch on
Oct 20, 2008 3:10 PM CDT
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Great tweaking of a team
I agree with you thoughts, but am a bit fuzzy on Luke Scott – and he may be the guy. Otherwise very solid, and with a winner like Millar in reserve.
Cubs Win!! Cubs Win!
by Ihatethecards on
Oct 20, 2008 8:41 AM CDT
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Well written and thought out
And I wanted to start out with that positive, so as not to be taking shots at what obviously took some effort to put together — because at least to start, I’m going to focus only on what I don’t agree with:
- I have a hard time believing the Giants would give up Cain for Lee. I know the popular sentiment is that Sabean likes older players, but this seems like a stretch. I wouldn’t make that deal straight up, let alone including a lefty reliever. Plus, the rumor dejour four weeks ago was Fielder AND Hardy to SF in a Cain deal.
- People talk about Brian Roberts, and you mention Luke Scott and Aubrey Huff. However, Teixiera is from the Baltimore area and has made no secret of his desire to one day play for his hometown team. If that day comes in 2009, why would the O’s trade established players for less established, prospect types?
- I was wrong about the Edmonds signing; I was against it and didn’t expect anything out of him. I think the Cubs should invite Jim Edmonds to the 2009 Convention to let him get his well-deserved applause and thanks for helping the Cubs win the division. And that’s it. He hit .241 after the ASG, including .200 in August. He gave the Cubs a boost, and they may have given him one — but I hope the organization learned from the Gaetti signing of 1999. If Johnson full-time is the backup plan, then just give him the job outright and save the money on Edmonds.
- Unless Deep Goat is telling you about Fukudome, I don’t believe that this is going to happen. I think there’d be tremendous backlash from the players’ union, not to mention the future implicatoins when the Cubs try to sign a player from the Pacific Rim (or any other global region where the draft doesn’t apply). Kosuke is probably here for at least one more year, if not three.
- The most minor comment — Listasch and Davis are higher on the organizational chart than Sandberg. I wonder if this is a sentimental choice — I can understand that; Sandberg’s my all-time favorite Cub (nothing against Banks; I was born in the 1970’s). However, I think those two get a call to the big leagues before Ryno does. Even if not — usually managers in waiting are third base or bench coaches, not first base coaches.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Oct 20, 2008 8:42 AM CDT
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I know the Giants are looking at Lee.
Maybe you’d have to throw in a prospect or two to make that deal. I’d still do it.
About Reed Johnson, he doesn’t really hit RHP — and Edmonds doesn’t hit LHP any more. But the two of them together can still be a productive platoon.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 8:47 AM CDT
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Lee
I’d do it from a Cub perspective; I was saying I wouldn’t do it from a SF perspective.
Johnson actually hit .273 against RHP from 2005-2007, and .280 in 2008. I didn’t mean that he was the answer, I just meant I think that Edmonds isn’t anymore.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Oct 20, 2008 8:52 AM CDT
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I acknowledge that Edmonds declined late in the year.
It’s not quite a Gaetti situation — in fact, Gaetti hit great for six weeks, which is why Ed Lynch re-signed him.
The Giants have a surplus of pitching and, really, no hitting at all (their best hitter was Bengie Molina. How weak is that?). D-Lee becomes the best player on the team, and solidifies their defense.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 8:54 AM CDT
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Lee and Edmonds (which I should have titled the above...)
As much as I like Lee, he’s probably the most movable of the “big 3” — and that 3 needs to be broken up. If I were Hendry, I’d definitely do it for Cain straight up and especially if they’d include another piece.
I still think signing Edmonds would be a mistake. His range has decreased in addition to his hitting. I was wrong once regarding him; maybe I am again – but in your rationale for getting rid of Lee, you invoked Branch Rickey — I think that could apply here, as well. Not that there is a great option out there, but the money is better spent somewhere else (Blanco?). Plus, I still think Fukudome stays. Maybe Kosuke is the platoon partner in center.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Oct 20, 2008 9:00 AM CDT
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That could work, I suppose...
Fukudome had weird splits. His BA was higher vs LHP (.276 to .251). But he hit RHP for more power (.388 SLG to .354). Not quite sure what to make of those.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:03 AM CDT
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Kosuke's splits -- odd indeed
And another year of that would probably signal his way out the door — but so would a .260 overall average unless he walks 100 times.
Unless he decides himself that he wants to leave, I think he’s a Cub in 2009. Then it’s up to him to work on that swing and get both splits up. No more “bail, wail and fail”.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Oct 20, 2008 9:06 AM CDT
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I don't think Dome is gone either
He seems like a pretty confident guy and I just don’t think he would accept failure by returning to Japan. He wants to succeed and I would expect him to work his ass off this winter to achieve that result.
I like him as the platoon partner in center w/ Johnson. He has got to be at least Edmonds equal in terms of defense. Offensively, however, Dome may be a downgrade if this year wasn’t an aberration.
When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo
by gwood on
Oct 20, 2008 9:30 AM CDT
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Yeah...
I also think Dome is here to stay for at least another year and agree that he will work his ass off to prove that last year was due to the transition, travel, longer schedule etc to MLB. His culture will not allow failure especially this early. Hopefully he proves he can hit at this level and proves last year was an abberation.
You ARE freaking out MAN!
by crw89 on
Oct 20, 2008 11:04 AM CDT
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I think a lot...
…of this had to do with how bad (or good) he was swinging when he faced these guys. And, we know he wasn’t swinging very well in the 2nd half.
I tend to think Fukudome will be back. The Japanese players have a lot of pride and I don’t see him putting his tail between his legs and giving up. He has something to prove and he will do his best to prove it.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Oct 20, 2008 9:34 AM CDT
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If he could improve his offense...
… he’d be extremely valuable, the guy the Cubs thought they were getting.
I’d love to see that. I just don’t expect it.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:35 AM CDT
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isn't there evidence
of more success in the MLB in the second year coming from Japan? Based on getting used to travel, longer season and better pitching. I don’t think Dome is gone next year either.
by cubbiefanTN on
Oct 20, 2008 12:14 PM CDT
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Quit talking about my sample size!
I’ve been told size doesnt matter! :)
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand. - Homer J Simpson
by MikeOxbyg on
Oct 20, 2008 12:48 PM CDT
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declined?
sure his BA was down, but his OBA went up by 40 points and his SLG went up by 160 (!!), .424 in the first half, .586 in the 2nd half. his OPS for the second half was an insane .955. i see no decline.
Tennis is to artillery and air strikes what football is to infantry and attrition. - David Foster Wallace
by McNallyish on
Oct 20, 2008 12:35 PM CDT
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edmonds, that is
Tennis is to artillery and air strikes what football is to infantry and attrition. - David Foster Wallace
by McNallyish on
Oct 20, 2008 12:36 PM CDT
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Have Cubs Given Up On Pie?
Ideally, we would love to have Pie hit better at the big league level and have him as the full-time centerfielder. Have the Cubs given up on that idea based on Pie’s poor hitting performance last season? You’ve got to be concerned about how well Edmonds will perform next season when he’s a year older. I doubt Edmonds will replicate the success of 2008. The Cubs can get more good years out of Johnson than Edmonds.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on
Oct 20, 2008 8:55 AM CDT
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I still like Pie.
But again, Lou doesn’t (despite the addition of Pie to the playoff roster). And when Lou doesn’t like someone… eventually, you can say goodbye.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 8:56 AM CDT
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Maybe it's time for higher-ups in the organization to put their feet down
I think a Johnson/Pie platoon could be very productive, and Pie is much cheaper than Edmonds.
Of course, I doubt anyone will actually tell Lou what to do.
by dr stabbingworth on
Oct 20, 2008 9:18 AM CDT
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I'd like to see this, too.
But, knowing Lou’s discomfort level with Pie, I have a hard time disagreeing with Al (and others) who believe it’s highly likely that Felix will be dealt.
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
by dat cubfan daver on
Oct 20, 2008 11:22 AM CDT
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This is the great drawback of Lou -
he limits the players that can succeed on your club. Raul Ibanez couldn’t hit under Lou during his ages 24-28 years. We’ll be regretting the loss of Pie for years.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Oct 20, 2008 3:32 PM CDT
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Lou's doghouse
I am not sure that I see Lou’s doghouse, or his dislike of Pie and Fukudome, as being as big a deal as seems to be the consensus.
Fukudome struggled in September, but was still in the lineup in October. After two games of hitless ball, he was still used as a pinch-hitter in an important situation in game 3.
Similar situation on Pie. He was given a chance at the beginning of the year, then Edmonds came on board and clearly Pie was bumped out. I didn’t see that as a “Lou doesn’t like Pie” statement as much as jumping at a good opportunity. Then, Pie was kept on the postseason roster which has to be viewed as something of a vote of confidence (even if there are obvious PR/defensive replacement arguments that can be made in his favor that don’t speak to his overall skills).
So basically I would just argue that we should be cautious in simply all buying into the groupthink that:
a) Lou has an inescapable doghouse
b) Pie and Fukudome are in that doghouse.
Note that I am not arguing for the same CF/RF opening day starters in 09 as 08.
Eamus Ursuli!
by WGNstatic on
Oct 20, 2008 4:26 PM CDT
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There's more on this conversation below.
Here, I am less talking about the doghouse and more talking about the fact that some players seem to see their performance suffer under Lou’s management style.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Oct 20, 2008 4:38 PM CDT
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Also, about coaching...
… whether Davis and Listach are “ahead” of Sandberg is really irrelevant. Yes, Listach is a fine managerial prospect. But Sandberg has opened some eyes in the organization in the last year. Being a 1B coach is only a start — he could move into being a bench coach after that and then be a manager.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 8:48 AM CDT
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When I say ahead, I don't mean managing higher-level teams
From what I’ve read, the team looks at them as being closer to MLB ready than Sandberg. But then, you certainly could have some inside insight on this.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Oct 20, 2008 8:54 AM CDT
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I've heard rumblings about that, yes.
Both Davis and Sandberg could become major league coaches. I’m not sure exactly how many managerial openings there will be this offseason — so far, it seems only Milwaukee has one — but Pat Listach may get offered a managing job in the next year or so and I don’t think the Cubs would stand in his way.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 8:55 AM CDT
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Just to clarify
You’ve heard rumblings that Davis and Listach are ahead, or that Sandberg’s moved up?
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Oct 20, 2008 9:01 AM CDT
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About Sandberg impressing the brass.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:04 AM CDT
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Maybe this goes without saying
But would this be naming the Cubs way of naming Lou’s successor before he leaves?
If this is the case, I hope Lou is sure he is done after 2010. That situation could get sticky…
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Oct 20, 2008 10:56 AM CDT
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Lou will be 67 in 2010.
I’m pretty sure he’s done.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 1:58 PM CDT
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Al, why will Sinatro go to Seattle?
Did I miss something?
In what capacity will he go there? Do you have any assumption of whom will be GM there? Will that person ask for Sinatro or is there something more to this?
One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.
by chilango2 on
Oct 20, 2008 11:54 AM CDT
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Just a rumor, I've heard.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 1:58 PM CDT
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Ha ha ha ha ha!
Deep Goat. The dude’s a ledgend on this blog!
by Rev Gunia on
Oct 20, 2008 11:15 AM CDT
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Why are you assuming it's a dude?
I have never once mentioned this individual’s gender.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 1:58 PM CDT
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Probably because
you don’t refer to the individual as Deep Goatess ;)
When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo
by gwood on
Oct 20, 2008 1:59 PM CDT
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Oh my God, it's Carrie Muskat!
Ewwwwwww!!!
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
by dat cubfan daver on
Oct 20, 2008 2:00 PM CDT
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No, it's not.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 2:02 PM CDT
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perhaps not...
but you wouldn’t tell us if we did happen to guess it, now would you Al?
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on
Oct 20, 2008 2:17 PM CDT
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LOL
I’ve repeatedly said I will not reveal this individual’s identity and I won’t. Ever.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 2:29 PM CDT
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sounds like it's Muskat to me...
looks like you’ve been in bed with the enemy this whole time. shameful.
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on
Oct 20, 2008 2:45 PM CDT
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Ewwwwwww!!!!
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
by dat cubfan daver on
Oct 20, 2008 2:52 PM CDT
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I'm getting a mental picture now that just isn't right.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Oct 20, 2008 3:01 PM CDT
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Duh!
Who ever heard of a female goat? They all have those Amish beards, don’t they?
by Rev Gunia on
Oct 20, 2008 2:59 PM CDT
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Of course you have - a nanny goat. You know, you hire them
to look after your kids.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Oct 20, 2008 3:02 PM CDT
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Very well done Al
My only concern would be trading away Marshal, with Harden’s history of injury he is good insurance policy to step in the rotation in case someone gets hurt.
"Destiny is a matter of choice, not chance"
by MerlinDog on
Oct 20, 2008 8:42 AM CDT
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Chad Gaudin made 34 starts for the A's in 2007.
He could, too.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 8:48 AM CDT
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Good Point
I forgot he was a starter in Oakland.
"Destiny is a matter of choice, not chance"
by MerlinDog on
Oct 20, 2008 8:49 AM CDT
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Well thought out Al
a real “thinking” plan. The point on not blowing up the team is right on. Subtle changes will be made. I was mulling around the thought of requiring Lee to swing for the fences a little more, lower the average and increase power, maybe in the 5 or 6 hole. I hate to see him go but maybe it’s time. The trade for Nolasco would be awesome. Let’s get that one done, an quick because many teams would like to have him.
Good plan, well thought out, let’s see how it plays out.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
by mrcubsfan on
Oct 20, 2008 8:48 AM CDT
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I'm with you
Everyone likes D Lee, but I think the time is right to trade him.
Cubs Win!! Cubs Win!
by Ihatethecards on
Oct 20, 2008 9:09 AM CDT
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It's a guilty feeling
I’ve been quietly saying it to all my friends since the NLDS. If the Cubs make a “big move” this offseason, I think it’s to move DLee. I feel terrible saying it, but yeah I think it’s time.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Oct 20, 2008 10:58 AM CDT
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He saves a lot of bad throws
and that stat doesn’t show up in the box score.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
by mrcubsfan on
Oct 20, 2008 11:47 AM CDT
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I know
and you are preaching to the Choir, but I agree, I think its time to trade him.
Cubs Win!! Cubs Win!
by Ihatethecards on
Oct 20, 2008 1:06 PM CDT
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And you know who we could get rid of that makes a majority of those "bad throws" don't you?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on
Oct 20, 2008 2:56 PM CDT
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lol
we could always move Soriano back to second and DeRosa to SS. :P
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Oct 20, 2008 3:11 PM CDT
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Goodness!
Even the thought gives me nightmares!
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on
Oct 20, 2008 4:18 PM CDT
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Especially if you are seated
on the first base line in rows 1-10.
But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night
by N Oakley on
Oct 20, 2008 4:29 PM CDT
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Yes, you'd want full body armor
Cubs Win!! Cubs Win!
by Ihatethecards on
Oct 20, 2008 4:32 PM CDT
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Good post
Thanks for the thoughtful post, Al.
It seems that once again Lou and Jim are in the market for a leadoff hitter, regardless that leadoff is not a position. So I have to believe that that would impact whatever other moves are made.
You do have a number of shrewd suggestions: getting Cain and Hinshaw and flipping Cain with Pie for Nolasco, especially. Obviously either Cain or Nolasco would be wonderful additions to an already strong starting rotation. Nolasco was completely dominant the second half of 2008, he’s young, and has secret sauce stuff.
One of my worries with your 2009 lineup is that especially with position players it is clearly designed to win now and not compete for several years — having old guys like Millar, Edmonds, Blanco, etc., while trading away young talent like Pie. OTOH, maybe the veteran presence of guys like Millar can translate into a better postseason performance than we’ve witnessed the past few years, especially if Millar can keep the team loose.
You’re also right about Lou’s end-of-regular-season and playoff foibles. This point has been made elsewhere, but by treating the end of the season differently (resting regulars, using only relievers for one game, etc.) he sent the message that the playoffs were different — no longer could the Cubs just go out and play good baseball like they had all year long, but likely felt that it was different and had to address the pressure put on them by the media and the fans for past failures that were in no wise their responsibility.
I have to ask about your strong belief that Fukudome will head back to Japan. Is this a hunch or have you heard murmurs from Deep Goat or other sources? Is there precedent for such a move?
by John Q Freejazz on
Oct 20, 2008 8:50 AM CDT
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There's no precedent for such a move.
It seemed to me that Fukudome wasn’t happy most of the year — missed his family more than other Japanese players. It’s mostly a hunch based on how deep Fukudome is in Lou’s doghouse. We have seen evidence of how once you get there, Lou apparently lobbies Hendry heavily to get such players off his team (Michael Barrett, Scott Eyre, etc.) no matter what their possible value could be.
I just have a feeling Lou may be doing this, or will once the organizational meetings start today.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 8:52 AM CDT
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Always wondered...
If missing his family was such a big deal, why wasn’t the family able to visit frequently? It’s not as if he’s from Cuba or something :)… anyone know…. is there some goofy travel restrictions going on here?
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on
Oct 20, 2008 10:37 AM CDT
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No.
In fact, his family was here quite a bit during the season. But even doing that is different from him being in his home country. Japan’s a very different culture from the USA and it seemed Dome had trouble adjusting.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 10:44 AM CDT
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thanks Al...
so it’s both the family thing, and the cultural thing. gotcha.
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on
Oct 20, 2008 10:46 AM CDT
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Homesick?
I doubt his slumping at the plates was from being homesick. I’d say his slumping at the plate just made him even more homesick.
by TheHawkRules on
Oct 20, 2008 11:32 AM CDT
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He just needs a BFF
Let’s get Ichiro to roam CF next season. Should be easy right?
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on
Oct 20, 2008 10:47 AM CDT
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Piece of pie. Easy as cake.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Oct 20, 2008 11:43 AM CDT
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Are you asking for political asylum
or any other kind? (I know that movie too).
Tommie Agee was out.
by Weeghman Park on
Oct 20, 2008 1:50 PM CDT
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Maybe Sori can lend Dome one of his BFF's on Facebook....?
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
by zevkalman on
Oct 20, 2008 6:48 PM CDT
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Yeah, we can just trade Matt Sinatro for Ichiro.
"That’s what I love about my skip, man. He’ll tell you that you suck...I know I suck. We know we suck...Yeah, we suck. But we’ll see who sucks at the end."
- Gary Sheffield
by DrGalazkiewicz on
Oct 20, 2008 9:18 PM CDT
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So maybe he'll make that adjustment.
I can’t see the Cubs just dumping him after one rough year
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
by calicubfan on
Oct 20, 2008 10:54 AM CDT
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I forget his name but...
where is our BCB-Japan correspondent? What was his take?
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand. - Homer J Simpson
by MikeOxbyg on
Oct 20, 2008 12:53 PM CDT
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Dragonsfanatic?
He hasn’t posted much since the playoffs.
by sue369 on
Oct 20, 2008 1:03 PM CDT
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Yeah, the frequency of his posts...
…seemed to decline in tandem with Kosuke’s batting average. Can’t say I blame him.
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
by dat cubfan daver on
Oct 20, 2008 1:05 PM CDT
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well...
he did say that the Dragons had a fantastic season so his attention was elsewhere. Go Dragons! (At least I think it was the Dragons)
All generalizations are false.
by Emelie on
Oct 20, 2008 2:09 PM CDT
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The Dragons are currently in the 2nd round of the playoffs...
… the equivalent of the LCS, trailing Yomiuri 1-0.
The Japan Series starts November 1. (Remember, they have mostly domed stadiums over there.)
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 2:14 PM CDT
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Lou's Managing: Integrity of Game Issues
During the last week of the regular season, Lou gave the regulars too much rest in games that meant a lot to the Mets and Brewers. Perhaps, the Cubs got their just desserts by getting swept by the Dodgers. The Cubs should have had their “real” players out there for every game down the stretch against playoff contending teams.
I admired Larry Dierker and the Astros for playing their regulars the whole extra-inning game against the Cubs in contest 162 of the 1998 season, when the Cubs were battling for the wild card. The Astros won that game, which eventually forced the Cubs to play that one-game playoff against the Giants that year.
"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray
by memphiscub on
Oct 20, 2008 9:06 AM CDT
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Agreed.
Yes, two players — DeRo and Soto — were banged up and needed the rest.
The rest of the team should have gotten one day off — the day after the clincher, that’s traditional — then got back to work. And the spring-training pitching staff that threw the last day of the season was a disgrace.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:08 AM CDT
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The pitching is the one that bugged me the most
Marquis should have started game 161. No way does one relief appearance get him any more ready to pitch in relief the next week than a start would have.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Oct 20, 2008 9:09 AM CDT
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Right.
Not only should he have started, he should have gone his usual — well, however long he could have gone. Lou played game 161 like a spring training game. Stupid.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:11 AM CDT
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Agreed
And while it’d be stupid for the team to say who they’d rather play, I think most of us wanted the Mets, whose pitching staff was in disarray.
Granted, the Cubs wouldn’t have beaten the Mud Hens the way they played against the Dodgers — but this sentiment was before the fact.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Oct 20, 2008 9:13 AM CDT
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I wasn't upset by the rest for players.
The Cubs have a lot of older players, the offense seemed to disappear in September, not just that last week, and Lou had already ridden the Staff too hard during the season.
The playoffs are different by the short series. There’s no way around that. To me this team’s failings were just an extension of their mediocre play at the time, in part from age. The Manager totally F’d up tat first game by leaving in Dempster too long. in a best of 3 you don’t wait it out to see if your starter can get it going. Lou totally screwed this up as he mishandled the Staff most of the year.
Unless this team really improves its talent base for 2009 I am not as optimistic that they can overcome the shortcomings of their Manager and the age of the roster. I am not saying they will become a lousy team, but with only minor tweaks and a Manager who doesn’t look so hot, it could be much closer to .500. than 90.
by DudeVf11 on
Oct 20, 2008 9:41 PM CDT
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What would you have said if
DeRosa had pulled his calf muscle and Soto aggrivated his hand injury to the points where neither could play in the NLDS?
Don’t get me wrong – I don’t think you are completely off base here – but there is a middle ground between uber-rest and playing every player every inning of the remaining games.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson
by Shanghai Badger on
Oct 20, 2008 9:08 AM CDT
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As I noted above...
… DeRo and Soto were banged up and needed the rest. The rest of the team should have been in there every day.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:10 AM CDT
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Let's see how the Phillies do after their week away from competitive baseball
My hunch is they come out flat while the Rays come out stoked.
"Every team will win 60 games, every team will lose 60 games, it's what the team does in the other 42 games that decides the season."
by flachimesa on
Oct 20, 2008 10:22 AM CDT
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Which is what happened to last year's Rockies.
This new postseason schedule sucks for any team that sweeps the LCS, or makes quick work, as the Phillies did. They get far too much time off.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 10:33 AM CDT
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What happened to last year's Rockies is that they were never as good as their absurd hot streak...
…and at some point it caught up to them.
by cwyers on
Oct 20, 2008 10:34 AM CDT
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True, too.
But I’m betting the time off catches up with the Phillies this week. Had the Rockies not had to sit for several days, maybe they’d have stayed hot — or at least hot enough so they wouldn’t have been swept.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 10:36 AM CDT
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I think the Phillies are a better team than the Rockies were last year.
Everyone seems to underestimate how well they pitch. That said, I don’t think they’re as good as the Rays. Anything can happen in a short series, though.
by cwyers on
Oct 20, 2008 10:37 AM CDT
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reminds me of a college football bowl game
"Just win tonight" - derv
by derv on
Oct 20, 2008 7:35 PM CDT
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Very Thorough, but youre not getting Matt Cain for D.Lee
They wouldnt even trade Cain for Prince Fielder. Cain is 2 years younger and has no history of injuries, like Nolasco, and has performed admirably for some miserable SF teams. If the Giants are to deal one of their two cornerstones, Lincecum being the other, they can do a lot better than a 34 year old first baseman with declining power.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on
Oct 20, 2008 9:11 AM CDT
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Then throw in a prospect or two.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:15 AM CDT
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Or trade him to the Angels, who will be looking for a first baseman when Teixeira leaves.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:16 AM CDT
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For Whom?
Do the Angels have any young pitchers that would then fit into the Cain to Florida deal? Or would they go for Figgins?
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on
Oct 20, 2008 9:17 AM CDT
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Your convinced the Angels won't sign Tex?
"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields
by calicubfan on
Oct 20, 2008 12:44 PM CDT
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We dont have enough top prospects
To get a 24 yr old pitcher of his caliber
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on
Oct 20, 2008 9:16 AM CDT
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You're underrating Cain on both ends.
SF simply isn’t going to include Cain in a deal in which D. Lee is the centerpiece of the players they’re receiving.
Cain and Lincecum are the only two Giants who are approaching “untouchable” status – Lincecum obviously more so than Cain. But neither guy is going anywhere unless Sabean is absolutely blown away. And Lee + (take your pick of any 5 minor league players in the organization) isn’t even enough.
And on the other side, I wouldn’t trade Cain straight up for Nolasco – let alone throw in a prospect like Pie. Cain is quite good.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on
Oct 20, 2008 12:10 PM CDT
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Agreed on Cain.
If we get Cain, we keep him – he’s a star. On the other side, though, I refuse to underappreciate Sabean’s ability to make bad trades for aging veterans. If only we had A.J Pierzynski to trade him…
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Oct 20, 2008 3:40 PM CDT
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Fukudome
Somewhere I heard that other Japanese players struggle their first year and then turn it around the second. The grueling schedule, the travel and being away from home all take their toll. When they come back for the second season, they know what to expect and can better handle it. I’d probably give Fukudome one more year.
Javon Ringer for Heisman!
by Spartan1979 on
Oct 20, 2008 9:13 AM CDT
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I believe that struggle the first year is a myth.
H. Matsui was .287/.353/.435 with 16 Hr his “rookie” year and .298/.390/.522 his second and 31 Hr his second. Didn’t struggle, but improved.
Ichiro was .350/.381/.457 with 34 2Bs his “rookie” and .321/.388/.425 his second with 27 2Bs. Measurably better the first year.
Kas Matsui was .272/.331/.396 his first year and .255/.300/.352 his second playing fewer games.
Nomo was dominant his first year plus and faded back.
I agree the first year is grueling, but the major signing comparisons don’t support the theory. From the comparisons, it seems Fukudome could just as easily post worse numbers as improve.
But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night
by N Oakley on
Oct 20, 2008 9:26 AM CDT
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I don't think you need to worry
No one is going to take Fukudome’s contract after last year and I have never heard of anyone accepting a “buyout” of a contract. He would just be giving millions of dollars away. Fukudome will be a cub next year.
by JonH on
Oct 20, 2008 9:33 AM CDT
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Very well thought out.
I agree with the concept of tweaking and avoiding major free agent expenditures. I also agree the big three need to be split up and that Lee is the easiest to move.
I would rather have Cain and Pie than convert both for Nolasco, but I understand and respect your opinion.
I hope you are correct on Fukudome. If he can’t produce, unloading that contract would be the biggest of the offseason movement.
This offseason will probably be more interesting to watch than 06/07 and 07/08 as it’s shouldn’t be about the 1 big signing.
All the tap dancing involved in multiple smaller moves and resigning strengths should keep Jim busy all winter.
But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night
by N Oakley on
Oct 20, 2008 9:14 AM CDT
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Millar had 20 HRs!?
That was the most surprising part of this post, I would’ve guessed he had half that.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on
Oct 20, 2008 9:19 AM CDT
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What about defense?
The difference in defense between the 2007 and 2008 teams was significant and in my opinion, played a key role in the improvement of the tea,
If you bring in below average defense players like Kevin Millar and Aubrey Huff and if I recall correctly, Luke Scott wasn’t very good defensively with the Astros (and more of a left fielder, not right fielder) you will allow the other team to score more runs.
My question is, if you weaken a team defensively to try to improve the offense, do you really make it better? I’m not sure that defense is given enough weight in this scenario that Al laid out.
Here’s another thought, you would also add age to the team adding players like Millar and Huff. The older your players, the more likely you are to have injuries.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on
Oct 20, 2008 9:20 AM CDT
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Personally, Luke Scott used to scare the hell out of me when he was in Houston. He’s a ballplayer.
by leothelip on
Oct 20, 2008 11:36 AM CDT
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Well . . .
If we trade enough defense for offense such that the end result is that we still have a 97-win team, but one that can hit in the playoffs, I’ll take it.
by madcow256 on
Oct 20, 2008 2:14 PM CDT
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Wow, madcow talkin' to cowsare cool. This is great!
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
by dat cubfan daver on
Oct 20, 2008 2:26 PM CDT
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Mooo!
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on
Oct 20, 2008 2:26 PM CDT
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This is a moooving experience.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Oct 20, 2008 2:26 PM CDT
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udderly ridiculous
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on
Oct 20, 2008 2:28 PM CDT
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Cud you guys moooove on?
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 2:30 PM CDT
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I cowtow to your request...
I haz blurg: hotbeans.wordpress.com
by digitalbenjamin on
Oct 20, 2008 2:34 PM CDT
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What's your beef with this conversation Al?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on
Oct 20, 2008 2:58 PM CDT
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I can tell you guys are gonna milk this cow thing for all it's worth.
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
by dat cubfan daver on
Oct 20, 2008 2:59 PM CDT
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WHAT YOU ALL DID THERE....
![]()
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on
Oct 20, 2008 3:21 PM CDT
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It just seems like the bulk of the emphasis in the posts today is on offense.
Stopping the other team from scoring is as much or even more important than scoring, depending on the point in the game.
Putting an all around team on the field in 2008 is why the team improved from 85 wins in 2007 to 97 wins in 2008. Their defense (particularly their outfield defense) played a big part in the increase in wins.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on
Oct 20, 2008 2:26 PM CDT
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Luke Scott definitely has a RF arm,
though Markakis’s is better. Range-wise, he’s not the greatest, but range in LF is the same in RF unless you play in a very asymmetrical park (i.e., Fenway).
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on
Oct 20, 2008 8:15 PM CDT
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Very well thought out Al...
…and very interesting indeed. This can go in a lot of different directions, and my biggest hope is Hendry and Lou follow some of the ole Herb Brooks logic in putting a team together:
“I’m not looking for the best players, I’m looking for the right ones.”
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Oct 20, 2008 9:28 AM CDT
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Backloaded contracts
Have you accounted for all of the raises due to the people we expect to keep? Soriano, Lilly, Ramirez, DeRosa, Harden and Zambrano are all getting raises totally about $17M.
by lohroffc on
Oct 20, 2008 9:29 AM CDT
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Ah, you're right.
I didn’t account for that. Still, if all the other money moves I suggested come to pass, those backloaded deals become not so onerous.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:32 AM CDT
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Im not to sure about this
Especially the D. Lee for Cain bit which as mentioned before i seriously doubt that the Giants who have talked to Milwaukee about Fielder would want D. Lee.
Also, Im really concerned about the age of this team and the potential injuries that can pile up on an older ball club. Not to mention that the CF production this year was pretty much catching lightning in a bottle so to speak.
Also, another issue I see with the line-up is that Soriano probably still bats leadoff in that scenario and as we’ve seen that probably wont be a great idea.
We also have to take a minute and look at the potential Jake Peavy impact. Now if you believe some of the rumors, it is rumored that his favorite destinations could be St. Louis, Cubs, or Houston last I checked those are two teams that play in our division and certainly not going to be fun facing him several times a year for lord know how long.
Also, I think that the proposed line-up does lack speed and power as well as defense, Now I know not putting an all-star team on the field wins you championships, but niether does 9 butchers.
by Galvan316 on
Oct 20, 2008 9:30 AM CDT
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What lack of power?
Aubrey Huff hit for more power last year than D-Lee, and Luke Scott had more than Fukudome.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:33 AM CDT
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I guess I really underestimated Huff's production
I guess if we are talking about a D. Lee replacement that would be a suitable guy in Huff. I guess it pays to look at stats
by Galvan316 on
Oct 20, 2008 9:40 AM CDT
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Look at more than one year's stats, though.
For the three years preceeding this one, Huff was a league average hitter. So, there’s two options:
1) At 31 years old, Huff had a fluke season that he won’t repeat next year.
2) At 31 years old, Huff has reestablished himself as a better-than-average hitter.
I’m betting #1.
by cwyers on
Oct 20, 2008 10:30 AM CDT
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Wasn't Huff the guy who had a blow-up with John Gibbons
about not playing every day? I think he has a reputation about bitching if he doesn’t play every day. That doesn’t bode well for him and Lou to get along if, as you suggest, he will be part of a platoon.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on
Oct 20, 2008 11:37 AM CDT
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Nope, Huff played for Tampa Bay until he was traded to the Astros mid-season in 2006.
He then signed a 3 year deal with the Orioles in 2007.
I can’t think of the name of the player you are thinking of, I only remember he was traded to the Giants after being DFA’d by the Blue Jays. Not sure if he’s still playing MLB.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on
Oct 20, 2008 12:49 PM CDT
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Shea Hillenbrand (sp)???
Not positive…
"I love when they play that Go Cubs Win song."
by BMoney79 on
Oct 20, 2008 12:50 PM CDT
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It was Hillenbrand (sp)
n/t
by Tangled Up In Blue on
Oct 20, 2008 12:53 PM CDT
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That's it!
Looks like he last played in MLB in 2007 for both the Dodgers and Angels.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on
Oct 20, 2008 12:55 PM CDT
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Thanks for correcting me.
I feel better about Al’s proposal. (Not really, but at least from the clubhouse fit angle.)
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on
Oct 20, 2008 8:21 PM CDT
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Huff and Scott have some potential
but I’m not sure why we’d trade for both when we could sign the likes of Abreu/Ibanez without giving up the trade chips for both.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Oct 20, 2008 3:44 PM CDT
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DeRo hit for more power last year than DLee,
.481 vs. .462 SLG. Does that make DeRo a power hitter, or DLee a singles hitter?
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on
Oct 20, 2008 8:19 PM CDT
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Or does it mean
that DeRo had a good year for his talent level and DLee had a bad year for his talent level? Of course, I’m bullish on both DeRo and DLee for 2009.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Oct 20, 2008 8:33 PM CDT
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Whod platoon with Huff?
Im confused on that one, assuming Huff hits against the righties. Who bats against the lefties, Millar’s 08 splits against lefties were pretty bad: .238/.341/.395, and he’s 37 years old, so you cant really rely on what he did when he was ten years younger. And to give up Marshall, Cedeno, Wuertz and Hoffpauir for Huff and not have suitable platoon partner doesnt add up to me.
You might as well trade Lee for whatever you can get for him and put Adam Dunn at first, his defense cant be any worse than Huff’s who hasnt been a full time 1B either. And his power and OBP numbers vs lefties are better than Huffs as well.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on
Oct 20, 2008 9:33 AM CDT
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One more note...
…I would be really surpised if the Cubs brought Edmonds back.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Oct 20, 2008 9:35 AM CDT
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Really?
Why? What’s the other plan? Lou doesn’t like Pie and I suspect Hendry will deal him.
The only other option would be to find another RF and platoon Fukudome with Johnson, but then there’s the problem of Fukudome’s odd splits.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:36 AM CDT
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Too much risk...
…with injury. I also think it is likely that you get less production because he has physically slowed down.
I admire what he accomplished this year, and he was one of the more productive power hitters the Cubs had, but I think he was motivated to show a new team he could still do it, and I tend to think that motivation might not be there next year.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Oct 20, 2008 9:38 AM CDT
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Money might motivate him.
Or, the chance to win one more ring. I suspect if the Cubs had won it this year, Edmonds would have retired.
But maybe being part of a Cubs champion would entice him.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:43 AM CDT
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Pie will be dealt...
…if it fills a hole, but I would not be completely shocked to see a platoon of Johnson and Pie if he can’t be used for trade bait. If Pie keeps showing he can’t hit major league pitching, you would have to address his spot at the trade deadline.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Oct 20, 2008 9:39 AM CDT
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"Lou doesn't like..."
This was one of the themes of your post. e.g. “We could upgrade at SS, BUT LOU” and “Fukudome, BUT LOU…”
Is it an option for Jim Hendry to take control and tell Lou to rethink some things?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Oct 20, 2008 3:47 PM CDT
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Exactly...
Lou won’t be around forever, trading Pie (who has potential) b/c Lou doesn’t like him could come back to bite us. For all we know, Lou could possible retire after next year.
Someday we'll go all the way...
by CubsBullsBears on
Oct 20, 2008 4:04 PM CDT
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But what are you going to do with Pie in 2009?
He is out of options. If Lou doesn’t want him on the roster, Hendry will have to trade him — there’s no place to stash him. He wouldn’t clear Outright Waivers in a million years.
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on
Oct 20, 2008 8:24 PM CDT
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It's such a difficult situation, . . .
. . . this deal with Pie. I’d be curious to know how some other players who fell into similar situations earlier in their careers faired in the long run. That whole ‘too good too young and pushed at WAYYY too soon an age’ pile of garbage.
Because, track with me . . . if Pie takes four more years to find his stroke, he’ll only be 27! That means he could be still be having a great career around 2020.
It’s too bad that, at his age, he’s to a point with a team where he’s out of options with a team.
"From childhood's hour I have not been as others were - I have not seen as others saw." - Alone, Edgar Allan Poe
by Edgewood on
Oct 21, 2008 9:10 AM CDT
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Didn't need . . .
. . ‘with a team’ twice. Sorry about the wasted e-ink.
"From childhood's hour I have not been as others were - I have not seen as others saw." - Alone, Edgar Allan Poe
by Edgewood on
Oct 21, 2008 9:12 AM CDT
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I think people overestimate Lou's power over Jim.
Jim is going to sign and trade who he wants, albeit with some input from Lou. Lou will play who he wants, and probably without any input from Jim. If Jim wants a new SS, he’ll go and get him.
Everyone states the love Lou has for theriot, but i think that’s overstated. Yes, placing a call for his inclusion on the all star team was peculiar, but I don’t recall ever seeing the claim that he was the only guy he vouched for. And if cedeno was in the doghouse like some people have claimed, well of course it’s gonna look like Lou is in love with theriot. He’s the only other SS we have!
Yes, there is some truth to the doghouse of Lou’s. But the last month or two Lou made multiple comments about Kosuke needing to play better and subsequently lessening his at bats, and then voila, he’s starting games 1 & 2. I think the “doghouse” is a tad overblown by some.
by shoemile on
Oct 20, 2008 4:36 PM CDT
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I believe the whole idea of the relationship
between the General Manager and Manager is to work together.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on
Oct 20, 2008 4:37 PM CDT
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100% agree
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on
Oct 20, 2008 4:42 PM CDT
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Absolutely on the doghouse myth
I really haven’t seen it.
What is the evidence that Lou doesn’t like Pie or Fukudome? They have each been given multiple chances, and the last move that Lou made with both was “positive” (PHing Fukudome and giving him a chance in games 1 and 2, and keeping Pie on the roster).
I really believe the doghouse idea is a bit of a myth. This doesn’t mean I am arguing for them to both be starters in 09 though.
Eamus Ursuli!
by WGNstatic on
Oct 20, 2008 4:47 PM CDT
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I don't think it's Lou's power over Jim so much as Jim's modus operendi
Hendry is a great GM to work for as a manager – he gets you the players you want. This seems to be evidenced fairly well by the change in type of players Hendry has acquired under the Lou and Dusty eras. Dusty wouldn’t have sought Fukudome and Lou wouldn’t want Juan Pierre.
As for Dome – I don’t think he was in Lou’s doghouse until the playoffs. And I don’t even think it’s so much the doghouse with Dome as it is that Lou doesn’t believe in Dome any more.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Oct 20, 2008 4:48 PM CDT
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But did Lou push for Fukudome either?
I’m not saying he didn’t want the guy; but from what I recall, assistant gm Randy Bush had been on that guy for quite some time. I think we grab fukudome regardless of who’s managing.
by shoemile on
Oct 20, 2008 5:18 PM CDT
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The whole organization had a hard-on for him for about 4 years...
and with good reason. He’s a stellar defensive outfielder, is a hard worker, and loves the game. The guy is a winner, with a proven track record. I expect him to turn it around dramatically next year. I’d be willing to bet that he is working on it now.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on
Oct 20, 2008 5:21 PM CDT
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Well thought out for the most part
However, the Nolasco / Cain deal doesn’t make sense for a number of reasons.
- - I really, really don’t think the Giants could trade Cain for Lee. It just doesn’t make any sense, and seems like an idea more likely to have emerged from Phil Rogers ass than reality.
- - Once you have Cain, why trade him and your one of your better prospects for a pitcher of equal value ( Nolasco’s ERA+ last season was 118 vs Cain’s 114)?
That said, I like your idea of replacing Lee with the underrated Huff. However, I don’t think there’s any need to platoon him – he’s worse against lefties but not terribly so (.752
OPS vs .989). Even if you can’t get Luke Scott back in return I like this deal.
I would also not count on Edmonds repeating his 2008 performance. Ditch him and platoon Pie with Johnson instead.
by Wreckard on
Oct 20, 2008 9:38 AM CDT
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I think Nolasco has more upside than Cain does.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:44 AM CDT
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I'd take Cain in a heartbeat
A Potential ace vs. a solid middle rotation type starter? Cain has ace potential. In the end, even with Nolasco, we are talking potential as well. Cain has better raw stuff, Nolasco is a bit more consistent right now, but Cain has the better fastball, and imo, a better breaking ball as well.
Maybe Cain doesn’t develop … but I’d take the chance on him vs. Nolasco any day,
That said, it’s a well thought out plan, but I don’t think there is any way the Giants ponder a Cain for Lee deal, even if we offered up, say, Vitters. I really don’t. They’ve got enough young hitting in the pipeline to not have to give up a potential ace. They also have some monetary flexibility this offseason. Furthermore, they could probably get Dan Uggla and perhaps more for Matt Cain if they wanted, which would be a more worthwhile move.
I’m not even sure the Giants would shop Jon Sanchez for Dan Uggla, let alone Jon Sanchez for Derrek Lee, but if we were talking about scenarios with the Giants, my realistic wish would be Jon Sanchez, who could either fill in as the 5th starter or be a lefty pen arm. If Sanchez can develop the breaker a bit, and be a bit more consistent, I think his upside is better than Nolasco’s. Even if Sanchez doesn’t develop, he becomes a power lefty pen arm.
by toonsterwu on
Oct 24, 2008 1:56 PM CDT
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Good article but...
…with the postseason being the number one problem for the Cubs, there’s no way I get rid of our #1 playoff hitter. Lee was most definitely not the problem in 07 or 08. Huff has never played in the postseason and Millar is a career .242 hitter in the postseason. I just can’t see this.
If (I think that’s a big if) you can get Kosuke to go away, then it shouldn’t be to hard to find a RF upgrade. Even if Kosuke stays, I think he will be better than last year. Any attempt to move Cedeno is fine with me. Millar might make a good replacement for Ward.
As far as pitching goes, I think Marquis will likely be disposed of one way or another, effectively making room for Guzman. I think Samardzjia will get a shot at starting during Spring Training and if it doesn’t work, Marshall can take over.
I kind of look at this like they used to tell you as a kid. If you get lost, just stay in one place. If you throw the exact same team out there for the next 4 or 5 years I think one year they’ll break through. Now obviously you can’t just throw them back out there (for contractual reasons) but this was the best team in the NL all year. I’d like to see them take another shot with these guys (at least the principal ones).
If I couldn’t move Pie, I’d platoon him with Reed. Hopefully, he hits a little and emerges as a star or becomes moveable.
"I'm petrified of nipple chafing. Once it starts, it's a vicious circle." Andy Bernard
by TXCub on
Oct 20, 2008 9:41 AM CDT
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Our #1 playoff hitter?
It made no difference. I suspect D-Lee would bring a fair amount in trade from several teams, not just the Giants.
I’m not convinced Samardzija can start in the major leagues; his stuff and temperament seem better suited to the bullpen.
Guzman — now there’s a possible starter, though he too seems better off in the pne.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 9:45 AM CDT
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I don't think Guzman could ever stay healthy starting every 5 days
His stuff can really help us in the bullpen tho.
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #12 5-1 (1-1). Next up at Texas. Jeremy Maclin can still win the Heisman.
by nji232 on
Oct 20, 2008 10:20 AM CDT
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+1
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
by dat cubfan daver on
Oct 20, 2008 11:31 AM CDT
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I agree about Lee but...
…if we’re trying to fix the problem of postseason offense, how can your solution involve getting rid of our best source of playoff offense and not include adding a proven playoff hitter. Sorry Al, I just can’t see it. It seems you started out with trying to find a way to fit Kevin Millar on this team. To me that is a mistake. Millar may have been a clubhouse benefit for the Sox in 04 but not at the expense of his play on the field. If we can have 04 Millar, then great. But he has pretty much been in constant decline since then.
"I'm petrified of nipple chafing. Once it starts, it's a vicious circle." Andy Bernard
by TXCub on
Oct 20, 2008 11:31 AM CDT
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Lee has been lousy in the postseason.
A couple of bases-empty bloop doubles in the gap in the 2008 NLDS do not turn a poor postseason hitter into a good postseason hitter.
He failed in every high-leverage AB in 2007 and 2008, and stranded literally every baserunner he saw. Zero RBI! He was also terrible in 2003, with the exception of the double that ended our season.
The D-Lee defenders on this site are getting more creative all the time. It used to be his batting average, until that sunk. Then it was his defense, which is fading under every available metric, but which is apparently the only thing keeping the rest of our infield from becoming 2006 BJ Upton. Now, it’s the fact that he got 2 singles in NLDS Game 3 2007, and a couple of bases-empty doubles in NLDS 2008.
Lee didn’t come through in the NLDS, and he was below average in the regular season. If Hendry can find a taker – A big “if”, in my opinion, it has to be done immediately.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on
Oct 20, 2008 12:18 PM CDT
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You don't like Lee?
I don’t think I’ve read that on here anywhere. :-(
by sue369 on
Oct 20, 2008 1:07 PM CDT
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Don't you have a Cubs victory parade to attend?
I mean, at which point are we allowed to let reality encroach on our perception of the team’s performance? :)
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on
Oct 20, 2008 3:13 PM CDT
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hey, now.
NOBODY produced on offense this year or last. Lee got more hits than anyone else, I think. With Soriano going 1-for what, 23? And Riot being riot, where, exactly were Lee’s RBIs supposed to come from?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Oct 20, 2008 3:14 PM CDT
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I posted a recap below.
In the last 2 division series, he’s 1-10 with runners on base, and the 1 hit was a ground-ball-with-eyes single with Fontenot on 1st in 2008 Game 3.
In the other 9 at-bats with men on base, he has 4 K, 3 GIDP, a popout and a 6-3.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on
Oct 20, 2008 3:22 PM CDT
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did anyone else
do better?
Other than DeRosa’s HR this year, and Soto’s HR last year?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Oct 20, 2008 3:23 PM CDT
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I know.....I know
piclk me……pick me!!!! The answer is NO.
by sue369 on
Oct 20, 2008 3:29 PM CDT
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DeRosa, for starters.
In 2008, he was 4-12, with 2 doubles and a home run, and 4 RBI, and it took an 0-4 game 3 to bring him down to .333 on the series. Going into Game 3, he had 4 of our 5 RBI.
In 2007, he had an OBP of .500, and again hit .333 – I think he made something like 2 outs with men on base in the entire series, although one of those at-bats was a backbreaking GIDP with the bases loaded.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on
Oct 20, 2008 3:32 PM CDT
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Ok, so then...
Lee was our second best hitter in the playoffs, right?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Oct 20, 2008 3:33 PM CDT
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Yeah, let's ride him out of town on a rail!
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Oct 20, 2008 3:36 PM CDT
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Overall, sure.
And I never argued otherwise — in fact, the entire premise of my original post is that he was horrible in high-leverage playoff at-bats, despite the fact that his overall line looked pretty good.
Which is why his failure with men on base is so excruciating.
He was 4-5 with the bases empty in 2007, and 0-7 with runners on!
This year, he was 5-8 with the bases empty, and 1-4 with runners on.
And at no time through any of this did he hit for power. I really appreciate all that he did for the team, but I think that the record needs to be set straight about his Cubs playoff performance. Simply spouting off “10 for 23” doesnt’ even tell a portion of the whole story.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on
Oct 20, 2008 3:42 PM CDT
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Dude......
we know how you feel about Lee. You don’t need to say it 453,967 more times. We get it already.
by sue369 on
Oct 20, 2008 3:27 PM CDT
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+1
I BELIEVE!!!! GO CUBBIES!!!!!!!!!!
by cubsluver22 on
Oct 20, 2008 4:40 PM CDT
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Yeah 6-11 was lousy...
….and a combined 10 for 23, that’s lousy. When you play on a team that isn’t hitting, you’re not going to get a lot of RBI’s. I don’t care how you package it, going 10 for 23 over 6 games isn’t lousy. It far surpasses any other hitter on the team.
"I'm petrified of nipple chafing. Once it starts, it's a vicious circle." Andy Bernard
by TXCub on
Oct 20, 2008 2:27 PM CDT
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Every high-leverage AB and literally every baserunner he saw? Come on. Your
arguments carry a lot more weight if you speak realistically. He has had a rough couple of years, but let’s not be ridiculous.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Oct 20, 2008 2:31 PM CDT
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In the playoffs, yes.
I suppose the argument could be made that every playoff AB is “high leverage”, but Lee has zero postseason RBI for the Cubs.
2007 Game 1
AB 1 (1st inning, 0-0, 1 out, runner on 1st)- strikeout
AB 2 (3rd inning, 0-0), 2 outs, runner on 2nd) – strikeout
AB 3 (6th inning, 0-1, no outs, bases empty) – single
AB 4 (7th inning, 1-1, 2 outs, bases empty) – strikeout
2007 Game 2
AB 1 (1st inning, 0-0, 1 out, runner on 1st) – grounded into double play, Theriot out at 2nd
AB 2 (3rd inning, 2-4, 1 out, bases empty) – walk
AB 3 (5th inning, 2-6, 1 out, runner on 1st) – popout to SS
AB 4 (7th inning, 4-8, 1 out, bases empty) – single
AB 4 (9th inning, 4-8, 1 out, runners on 1st and 2nd) – strikeout
2007 Game 3
AB 1 (1st inning, 0-2, 2 out, bases empty) – single
AB 2 (3rd inning, 0-2, 1 out, bases empty) – single
AB 3 (5th inning, 1-3, no out, runner on 2nd) – groundout to SS, runner does not advance
AB 4 (7th inning, 1-4, 1 out, runner on 1st) – grounded into double play, Theriot out at 2nd
There’s your 2007 NLDS. 4 singles, every one of which came with the bases empty. With men on base, he was 0-7 with 2 GIDP, 3 strikeouts, a 6-3 and a popout.
As for 2008:
Game 1
AB 1 (1st inning, 0-0, 2 outs, bases empty) – walk
AB 2 (3rd inning, 2-0, 1 out, bases empty) – single
AB 3 (5th inning, 2-4, 1 out, runner on first) grounded into double play, Fuku out at 2nd
AB 4 (8th inning, 2-6, no outs, bases empty) – groundout 6-3
Game 2
AB 1 (1st inning, 0-0, 1 out, runner on 2B) – strikeout
AB 2 (4th inning, 0-5, no outs, bases empty) – single
AB 3 (7th inning, 0-7, no outs, bases empty) – flyout (9)
AB 4 (9th inning, 1-10, no outs, bases empty) – double
Game 3
AB 1 (1st inning, 0-0, 2 outs, bases empty) – double
AB 2 (3rd inning, 0-2, 2 outs, runner on 1st) “seeing eye” single to 3B, runner advances to 2B
AB 3 (5th inning, 0-2, 2 outs, bases empty) – strikeout
AB 4 (8th inning, 0-3, no outs, bases empty) – double
Definitely better than 2007, largely b/c of Game 3. And it’s not his fault he lead off so many innings in Game 2. However, he’s still looking for his first RBI, and failed in every big spot in 2 straight years of NLDS losses. He’s grounded into 3 double plays in 6 NLDS games, and has ‘come through’ with men on base once, and it was, of course, a single that didn’t result in any runs.
I like the rate stats in the abstract, but the splits are terrible. His overall performance in the last 6 postseason games has been excruciating to watch.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on
Oct 20, 2008 3:11 PM CDT
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Now try to imagine what some of those singles could have produced...
with a lineup that included an actually leadoff man that can get on base when you need him to.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on
Oct 20, 2008 3:13 PM CDT
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With men on base, we've seen a different result.
Obviously, small sample sizes and all that. But Lee saw plenty of at-bats with men on base – 7 in 2007, 10 total – and he failed almost every time – he struck out 4 times, hit into a double play 3 times, popped out once, grounded out once (which would have been a double play, were the runner on 1st), and, granted, had a seeing-eye single.
Maybe he has the yips.
This is what I meant by failure to deliver in “high leverage” at-bats in the 2 division series. I’m well aware that he had a bunch of bases empty singles, and that he hit a double when we were losing 10 to 1.
But if he’d come through and driven in even one of the baserunners he’d seen, maybe the Cubs could have gotten something going. Instead, it’s Ks and GIDPs.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on
Oct 20, 2008 3:20 PM CDT
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He also failed to...
…leave a 15% tip for his waitress at Denny’s and didn’t use his turn signal when changing lanes on the Kennedy! I mean, come on, the man has GOT TO GO!
"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.
by dat cubfan daver on
Oct 20, 2008 2:55 PM CDT
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If I told you once, I told you a million freaking times - don't exaggerate!
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Oct 20, 2008 3:03 PM CDT
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I've heard of bloop singles...
…but this is the first time that I have heard the term “bloop doubles in the gap”.
I would like to have more of these “bloop doubles in the gap” hitters, please.
by vonde6 on
Oct 20, 2008 7:47 PM CDT
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Great job Al! Thanks for all you hardwork!
I agree with most of your points and also believe that Lee will be playing first base for the Giants next year. I think you may be right about Fukodome as well, he looked miserable throughout most of the year and may want a clean break and head back to Japan.
Unfortunately, Pie is in Lou’s doghouse as well as Cedeno and both will be traded but with Scott and DeRosa in right the outfield defense really would be a concern of mine. I keep hearing they want to move Soriano from the leadoff spot but I am not sure if Theriot fits the bill in their eyes or this would have happened last year. This leads me to believe they will be looking for a leadoff hitter this winter.
I would like for the Cubs to make a push for Peavy rather than sign Dempster to multi-year because I would be leary of how he will fair over the next couple of years and the money would probably close to the same as peavy is already signed for.
by cubdreamer on
Oct 20, 2008 9:56 AM CDT
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Whats the over/under for comments on this post?
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on
Oct 20, 2008 9:57 AM CDT
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Are we to include
potentially necessary overflow threads?
When you're eight games behind, it's like eight miles; when you're eight games in front, it's like eight inches. ~ Ron Santo
by gwood on
Oct 20, 2008 10:00 AM CDT
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Interesting Analysis/Predictions
Quite a good read, much better than most of the other word jockeys at the major papers could have done… then again, you’re not taking kickbacks from the clubs ;-)
Anyway, I disagree with what you said about Derrek Lee. He still provides important defense on the team (albeit his numbers were down this year) and even his mediocre production is above and beyond what we can expect from many other players in the league. Plus I think Derrek is the face of the team. He’s an extremely public figure, and sort of embodies the “every guy” character Cubs fans are known for. Huff is certainly a great player (had him on a fantasy team this year, good production) I just don’t think a Huff/Millar platoon would be any better over 162+…
Also, there is no way this club gets rid of Fukudome. I’m not being a fanboy here, but that would be like letting the passengers know the ship is sinking once it hits the bottom… that type of gut-check reactionary business would be great to see (just from the team TAKING some drastic action to turn things around) but I think they give him one more year to prove himself, and whoever the new owner is will not pass up the marketing opportunities a Japanese player gives your team (see Ichiro, Matsui, Matsuzaka). I’m a huge Luke Scott fan, however I don’t think Fukudome is going anywhere, unless of course he repeats this year, next year.\
Finally… Ricky Nolasco?? Really? Is that how we develop players now? When they can’t produce, ship them off to a team with better coaching, then pay a ton more to get them back than we would have if we’d kept them? Well, it work for Maddux, I suppose. ;-)
Once again, great post, and a great read.
by lswaidz on
Oct 20, 2008 10:03 AM CDT
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Nolasco should never have been traded in the first place.
That was the worst deal Hendry’s made in his entire time with the Cubs, and I think he’d admit it. It’s time to get him back.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 10:08 AM CDT
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Well
Shouldn’t have been traded for Pierre, yes. But let’s be honest. Nolasco has had two terrible years (one bad year and one year lost to injury) followed by a great year. It’s possible and even probable that the Cubs wouldn’t have had the patience to develop him anyway after the 2006/2007 he had.
Dontrelle Willis is a good example of judging to fast. However, as you have pointed out many times in the past, it’s not really about how good he becomes but that his trade value at that moment was higher than a Juan Pierre, even straight up (adding Pinto was insult to injury).
by Luis on
Oct 20, 2008 10:32 AM CDT
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Correct.
However, at age 26 I’d be willing to take a chance that Nolasco really has established himself as a top-quality pitcher. On the Cubs, he’d be the 4th or 5th starter, taking pressure off him.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 10:34 AM CDT
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You're right...
He shouldn’t have been traded… but immediate needs tend to outweigh long-term plans. However, that is contrary to a team like the Rays, who spent the last 10 years building a world champion (quote me, they’ll win it).
With that logic, let’s send Angel Guzman to another team for a few years and buy him back for the 2011 run! Maybe the team should look at how they’re developing prospects and spend some money pulling in guys who are capable of building an athlete and identifying true areas of talent.
by lswaidz on
Oct 20, 2008 10:55 AM CDT
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Amen to that
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
by bren on
Oct 20, 2008 1:21 PM CDT
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"should never have been traded in the first place"
Why was he traded? Because Jim Hendry followed his manager’s wishes to get him exactly what he wanted. Maybe that’s the lesson that needs to be learned here – that Hendry should take more leadership and keep the players he believes in on the team.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Oct 20, 2008 3:52 PM CDT
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I believe the trade occurred because of the "win now" philosophy.
This is a good example of why you need to be very careful when an organization trades some of the future for the present. (Ask Tiger fans about trading prospects for high priced veteran players.)
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on
Oct 20, 2008 4:23 PM CDT
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Doyle Alexander was a great pitcher. The Tigers only had to give up that
guy…. John something. I wonder whatever happened to him.
But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night
by N Oakley on
Oct 20, 2008 4:30 PM CDT
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He suffered an elbow injury requiring TJ surgery
and a shoulder injury requiring surgery.
They would have been better off with Marquis, who is never injured… :-)
"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007
by DeRoMyHero on
Oct 20, 2008 8:35 PM CDT
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Hendry panicked after he failed to get Furcal.
As much as I love to slam Dusty, I can’t really absolve Hendry from that trade in good conscience.
Hendry wanted his leadoff hitter – We’d won with Lofton in 03, and 2 years of Neifi and Patterson leading off were associated with the losses piling up.
Hendry wasn’t willing (or, perhaps, wasn’t allowed) to match the Dodgers’ offer for Furcal, and so he went after the “next best thing”, by massively overpaying for Juan Pierre, a player who has somehow managed to trick MLB GMs into believing that he is valuable for his entire career.
Hendry probably thought “fast centerfield leadoff man = division title”, and went out and got us a player who is literally incapable of doing anything but hitting high bouncers to 2B and beating out 3 in 10, and then running himself off the bases 2 of 3 times he tried to steal.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on
Oct 20, 2008 4:41 PM CDT
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Hendry was both willing... and was allowed to spend what he deemed neccessary
to get Furcal. Furcal simply took more money and less years, to maximize his FA potential.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on
Oct 20, 2008 4:52 PM CDT
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Did I miss it?
who replaces Ward?
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Oct 20, 2008 10:11 AM CDT
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Millar.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 10:12 AM CDT
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Nope
I know you hate Hoff, but he’ll be Ward’s replacement. Mark it down.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Oct 20, 2008 11:08 AM CDT
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Bull
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Oct 20, 2008 11:44 AM CDT
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I don't believe THAT at all.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Oct 20, 2008 11:54 AM CDT
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Believe it Drew
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Oct 20, 2008 12:51 PM CDT
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I'll print this page out and eat it if Hoff is on the major league roster next year.
If we’re lucky, we trad him. Otherwise, he’s back in iowa.
"That’s the great thing about baseball, you never know what’s going to happen till you get the final out." — Lou Piniella
by drewishdrewid on
Oct 20, 2008 3:16 PM CDT
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I gotta try that high fiber diet you're on Drew.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on
Oct 20, 2008 3:19 PM CDT
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Up until this moment, I was ambivalent about the hoff.
Gotta say now I’m rooting for him to stick and the photographic evidence of your paper diet.
But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night
by N Oakley on
Oct 20, 2008 3:26 PM CDT
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Careful Drew
Hoff’s career has passed the half-life, but he could be the Piggy of 2009.
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Oct 20, 2008 3:53 PM CDT
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Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.....I've got witnesses
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on
Oct 20, 2008 4:08 PM CDT
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Hoff won't even be a Cub next year...
He’ll be traded in a package deal of some kind.
Jimmyeatworld
by Jimmyeatworld on
Oct 20, 2008 5:08 PM CDT
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While I agree with trading DLee
Keep in mind that not every first baseman can dig out the crap throws from Aramis and Theriot. DLee has made both of them look better the last few years.
Your 2008 Missouri Tigers! #12 5-1 (1-1). Next up at Texas. Jeremy Maclin can still win the Heisman.
by nji232 on
Oct 20, 2008 10:26 AM CDT
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Point taken.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 10:34 AM CDT
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That's why I considered the possibility of moving Aramis to 1B and DeRo (of the more accurate arm) to 3B.
If you’re hearing Lee could be moved, are you also hearing that Aramis could move across the diamond to fill that void? If all we’re getting at 1B is Huff/Millar or Ibanez, wouldn’t it make more sense to open up 2B to get Roberts or get Theriot off of SS?
The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.
by DGU on
Oct 20, 2008 3:56 PM CDT
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It's possible, I suppose.
But then who would you get to play 3B? Chone Figgins might work — and you could probably trade D-Lee to the Angels for him.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on
Oct 20, 2008 5:07 PM CDT
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