Bleed Cubbie Blue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Steve McNair Found Shot to Death


spread the word

Building A Cubs Champion: Introducing Your 2009 Chicago Cubs, Continued (And A Word About Tank McNamara)

My "War And Peace" length proposal for the 2009 team did exactly what I'd hoped it would do -- provoke discussion, and a lot of good ideas from all of you, about what direction the team should take next year.

I think Gordon Wittenmyer's article this morning on Jim Hendry's contract extension illuminates my point. Hendry's backloaded deals are beginning to rear their ugly heads, which means that payroll can't really be increased by massive free-agent signings. Jim's going to have to be creative. My suggestions were made in that spirit. If you don't go out and get the specific players I mentioned, or if you don't like those, the point was that you have to get players like those. Role players, guys who know their spot on the team and produce in those roles.

And, you need someone like Kevin Millar, who was the leader of the "idiots" that were the 2004 Red Sox. Those guys had a monkey on their back almost the size of the one the Cubs do. And that has nothing to do with all the lame stuff that Mike Imrem writes about, yet again, in the Daily Herald today (geez, Mike -- you can do better than that, can't you?) -- but I do believe that the sheer length of the title droughts has to weigh on every player's head. Mark DeRosa even said during the postseason that every guy who signs with the Cubs wants to be part of the team that finally breaks the drought.

Of course they do, and of course every manager who signs wants to be the guy who leads them there. Wouldn't you? That'd give you baseball immortality.

But what it also does is put tremendous pressure on you, whether you realize it consciously or not. The Rays are in the World Series on talent -- but also because I think they don't know they're not supposed to be this good. They never thought about winning for one second, I think -- they just went out and did it.

The Cubs need a Millar type, someone who can get all the stuff OUT of their heads. Whether that's Millar himself (I do think he'd be a useful bench player) or someone like him, Jim Hendry has to identify that person (or people) and go out and get them. He has to balance that by making sure that those types of players also have talent and can fill the needed roles on the team.

He's got work to do, and some of it may include trying to dump a contract or two (I still think he could get someone to take Jason Marquis, which would free up almost $10 million). I opened this thread up primarily because, with nearly 600 comments on the other one, I figured you'd want to keep the discussion going today.

Finally, this was posted in the FanShot section but I wanted to bring it to a more prominent place on the front page. The Tank McNamara comic strip, which I have enjoyed for more than 30 years since it started, and which has skewered sports figures (deservedly so, in most cases), has decided to take a swipe at the Cubs and Cubs fans this week. This time, they missed the mark, and bigtime, by mentioning the same, lame, old, tired mass media cliches that we all agree have got to go. Yesterday's strip was a particularly egregious example of this nonsense.

Suggestion: you can sign up and post comments on the site. It appears, from one of the comments left yesterday, that Bill Hinds, one of the strip's writers, actually reads them. You might want to let him know that this time, they really missed the mark.

0 recs | Comment 304 comments | Share on Facebook Digg!

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Who else is there besides Millar?

I’m having a hard time coming up with a list of guys with that same no-worries, go-get-em attitude.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Oct 21, 2008 8:36 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I try not to...it brings nothing to the discussion table.

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Oct 21, 2008 9:01 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Say Dan,

was that you who was talking trash last week about the IA/WI game?

by sue369 on Oct 21, 2008 1:15 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good question

I think we’re one carefree guy away. Could it be a coach? Look how Ozzie kept the Marlins relaxed and light in 2003.

by goddess on Oct 21, 2008 9:14 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good Choice

I would favor a left handed Bat But the ones I like are not available. Millar is a good pick( he didn’t even enter my mind Al) , his in your eye type of play would be a good change for this team.

by NYCUB FAN on Oct 21, 2008 7:26 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Tank

Freaking nailed it.

There are too many fans who revel in the “atmosphere” of the Cubs and couldn’t care less about whether the team wins.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Oct 21, 2008 8:46 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have a different take on this than you, Worf.

We can all agree that the Cubs have one of the widest fanbases in the country, no? With WGN and national recognition, there are transplanted Cubs fans all over America. Well, I make it to Wrigley only once every few years, and when I am there, I am “revel[ing] in the atmosphere”. I like to take pictures with the crowd, of the statutes, come hours early and stay hours late. I would think that I am not alone in this, either. For those living in Chicago that are able to make it to Wrlgley many times a year, none of this is probably a big deal. For me, my family, extended family, and transplanted Cubs fans, a trip to Wrigley is about the Cubs, but also about soaking in the experience of the organization, the field’s aura, etc.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Oct 21, 2008 9:05 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The point is, though..

…. that by putting this in the strip, they perpetuate the stereotype, something I wish the mass media would get away from. Why can’t we be like all the other teams?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 9:11 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We can't because we aren't

I’m not saying I agree with it, but that’s how it is.

Interestingly, the Phillies have been around almost as long — and they’ve won 1 fewer World Series, and been to something like 3 fewer. They also perpetrated one of the biggest collapses in MLB history (1964?). Yet we hear nothing about them. Or the Indians.

Things will change when the Cubs win — because the lowest common denominator mocks those worse off to build itself up. Unfortunately, I don’t see this changing – not just in sports, either.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Oct 21, 2008 9:16 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You do hear about the Phillie Phlop...

… at least, we used to, before they finally did win.

The thing is, that’s an on-the-field collapse that has to do with baseball, not the peripheral sideshow stuff we’re subject to.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 9:21 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look at how many people

Objected to your ideas to change the superficial parts. Tell me those people give a damn about winning.

And by the way, we’re not special. Every single fanbase has a stereotype. Some never make it past the local media. Here are some that have made it out.

Dodgers — Arrive in the 4th; Leave in the 8th
Red Sox — pre-2004 - Tortured fan base that waits for the worst. Post 2004 Recovering fan base still waiting for the worst
Yankees — Thugs who think it’s their birthright to win it all
Marlins — Not interested unless it’s a World Series team
Braves — Not even interested then
Cardinals — Twits who applaud every single thing that ever happens ever
Mets — Thugs period
Phillies — Insane idiots who throw batteries at everyone

I’m sure the local markets have stereotypes for Mariners, Giants, Rangers and Orioles fans.

The fact is, when you lose for 100 years, you are a story. The good part of the story and the bad part of the story. Until the team wins, this will always be here. The media won’t change.

Several national reporters have gone out on the Cubs’ limb before. Jayson Stark was the one that I recall this time. They say, “The curse doesn’t matter. The Cubs will win.”

Each and every time, those reporters look like morons for daring to think the Cubs can actually find their ass with both hands. Until the Cubs prove it, they are a joke to the rest of the country.

Better to worry about getting the last laugh than to whine about who is laughing.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Oct 21, 2008 12:51 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Enlightening

Now I finally know where to dispose of used batteries!

by StevenABQ on Oct 21, 2008 12:53 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Its Ok, who really read comic strips anymore anyway?

Or for that matter news papers, this was just lame and uncreative.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 21, 2008 1:15 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You forgot the one about Philly fans booing Santa Claus.

"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007

by DeRoMyHero on Oct 21, 2008 1:52 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why would they get away from something that has a large audience?

It’s not about right or wrong, Al. It’s about readership and viewership. That generates revenue. Throw in some controversy and you have an even bigger audience. Remember this is about power, nothing else.

I’m in no way defending these folks but they are out there to maximize readership and viewership. From their point of view what better way than to rip on Cubs fans.

Sorry, it is what it is. I get this crap all the time from fans of the team that plays 9 miles south. And part of their motiviation is to note that there’s always jokes out there about the Cubs.

Sweet Lou for Mayor in '11.

by blackhawk24 on Oct 21, 2008 3:40 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tank McNamara was right on the money...

The truth hurts. But any of us who routinenly visit Wrigley and have done so for many years appreciate directly this issue.

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 10:07 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, it was BS.

It tied in to the same tired old stereotypes that the mass media lean on when they don’t have anything else to talk about.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 10:11 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know

if I would categorize a comic-strip as “mass media.” While I agree with you Al, I think that non-Cubs fans everywhere LOVE those stereotypes, and that is what the strip was going at…

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 21, 2008 10:27 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But all it did was serve to perpetuate them.

That’s the thing I’ve been arguing we have to get away from.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 10:32 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm with you Al...

that strip is crap! It brings up all the old worn out stereotypes. The author can’t even spell Harry’s last name correctly!? It’s not Harry Carey, it’s CARAY, a shortening of his given name Carabina.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 10:44 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Must've been thinking of the old cowboy actor

named Harry Carey. In fact Carey was nominated for an Academy Award for portraying the Vice President in “Mr. Smith Goes To Washington”.

Never, but NEVER, put ketchup on a hot dog.

by CaliCub on Oct 21, 2008 11:08 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe they were thinking of Mariah Carey.

Just something to brighten the day.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 21, 2008 11:11 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, you may have crossed a line with this one...

…but I’m not going to complain.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 21, 2008 11:22 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Neither am I.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 1:05 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That sure is a fine line in the picture there

looks like something might have already crossed it.

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 21, 2008 1:29 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not safe at any time

meh plastic boobs. But what do I know? I’m a girl. :D

All generalizations are false.

by Emelie on Oct 21, 2008 4:14 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Silicone parts are made for toys!

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 21, 2008 4:45 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Uh.... Oh!

But the wind blew me back via Chicago, In the middle of the night

by N Oakley on Oct 21, 2008 4:49 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was quoting Sir Mix-a-Lot.

No one reads any more.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 22, 2008 10:26 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From this guy's perspective

I prefer real and small to big and plastic.

I’m sure you’re glad to know this, but there it is.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Oct 21, 2008 7:15 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Most of the mass media

Doesn’t spend 24-7 thinking about the Cubs. They hit the superficial stuff and move on.

Until the Cubs win, that’s all they deserve.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Oct 21, 2008 12:52 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

FAIL

And your attitude is precisely the problem: Too many Cubs fans are willing to roll over and play dead when the MSM lumps us all into the Woo-Woo Loving, Curse-Believing Goatherd. Until we start standing up and crying BS when the media portays us this way, the situation will never improve.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 21, 2008 11:11 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You go ahead with that

I couldn’t care less how the media portrays me. My 401K dropped $15,000 in a month. If some comic strip guy makes fun of a group of people I happen to be a part of, that’s not going to cause me to lose sleep.

Get.

Over.

It.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Oct 21, 2008 12:53 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's the whole point...

… to get the mass media to get over it.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 1:05 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This isn't new

I don’t consider a comic strip to be Mass Media.

But most non-Chicago reporters don’t spend 24/7 on the intricacies of the Cubs. Hell, most Chicago reporters don’t.

The Cubs are hardly special. Most of the “elite” media believed the Rays would falter. Until they proved it, they weren’t winners. They were just a bunch of kids in an ugly ballpark playing in front of 12 people.

The Cubs have to prove it to change the narrative. Until then, we are a bunch goofy fans drinking beer and kissing the Harry Caray statue.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Oct 21, 2008 1:17 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you don't consider a comic strip to be mass media

Uhhh, riiiiiiiiiiiiight .. Brilliant observation.

You can pillory the Cubs fan base as a bunch of ditzy drunks enamored with pain if you will. It’s your right as a free exchanger of ideas.

I think your characterization of us all being in your goofy sports cult is a bunch of crap.

That’s my free exchange of an idea.

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Oct 21, 2008 2:27 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The traditional media is going to sell their work to the lowest common denominator

There’s no stopping it; they know it will sell. You might as well just get used to ignoring it until the Cubs win one.

by dr stabbingworth on Oct 21, 2008 1:28 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry to hear that...

I’m on a defined benefit plan, so I guess I do not know your pain. Must explain why I have time to whine.

by StevenABQ on Oct 21, 2008 1:19 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who said I lost any sleep?

You pick your battles, I’ll pick mine.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 21, 2008 1:32 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If the financial restraints are true

Then everyone’s pipe dream of paying Fukudome to go away isn’t happening.

And the Tribune is making it sound like we can have Dempster or Wood, not both.

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Oct 21, 2008 8:50 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I mentioned that below a few....who to take?

Wood is easily replaced by Marmol, though the 8th inning role would take some tinkering, and we all have discussed the perils or resigning Dempster, given that he’s coming off an unprecedented career year.

What if they were to let both go? Unlikely sure, but would it necessarily be bad?

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 21, 2008 1:18 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Probably, the real issue is the cost of the rotation.

Zambrano = $17,750,000
Lilly = $12,000,000
Harden = $7,000,000
Marquis = $9,875,000

Dempster would probably command at least $10M, probably more like $12M. (Perhaps there would be another backloaded deal for 4/$48M and a first year as low as $8M.)

Unless you are the Yankees, you can’t have a rotation where $7M is the low mark. That puts Jim Hendry, who knows that starting pitching wins divisions, in an interesting situation. He can:

1. Sign Demp, and hope that he can trade Marquis without eating salary. He will have to wait until the FA market dries up before having a market for Marquis. If he can’t find a market for Marquis, he trades Harden or Lilly. Trading Harden or Lilly would weaken the rotation in 2009 (since Marquis is the weakest starter), but leaves him with four solid starters plus Marshall (and Hill?) in 2009.

2. Attempt to trade Marquis before signing Demp (during the 2-week filing period). If he finds no interest in Marquis, he passes on Demp. Marquis becomes the #4 starter, and he prays that Hill or Marshall can fill the #5 spot. This does give him more flexibility in 2010 because only Z and Lilly are signed that long.

3. Keep the rotation intact by signing Demp and keeping the other four. Don’t sign Wood or an expensive LHB. After all, the Cubs led the league in runs scored without a great LHB last year, and they won games when Wood was on the DL. They can re-sign Edmonds fairly reasonably (will he want to change teams again?), and they can piece together a bullpen with Marmol, Spellcheck, Cotts, Hart, Guzman, etc. If Rich Hill finds his fastball, they can trade someone in ST or, (worst-case scenario) move Demp back to closer.

4. Keep the pitching staff intact by signing Demp and Wood and keeping everyone else. Trade one of the “Big 3” (which might have to be Ramy, because he is the most valuable, even though most BCBers would choose DLee). Don’t sign an expensive replacement bat. Either pull someone off the scrap heap (Morgan Ensberg? Mike Lamb?) or move DeRo to the open spot and depend on LBR/1Dec full-time at 2B. This weakens the offense, but do you need to lead the league in runs scored if you have the best pitching staff?

Which of these scenarios is best considering the possible budget constraints?

"I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007

by DeRoMyHero on Oct 21, 2008 2:26 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Something tells me the team will largely be the same...

Much to the chagrin of most people….it doesnt make much sense to trade 2 of our top SPs and our best hitter, Ramirez.

As much as I want some moves to be made, I suspect little other than the bench to change.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 21, 2008 3:20 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Peavy Situation has the potential

to make Dempster Cheaper by removing one of his suitors but is it enough to really make that much of a difference when you think he is at least going to get Lilly Money anyway.

"Sports are a crazy business. If there was a template, we'd all be champions, right? But there's one winner and 29 or 30 losers; one guy wins, everybody else is tied for last. That's the way it works" -- Mark Cuban

by TheRiot Police on Oct 21, 2008 4:31 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good Lord...

No wonder that Imrem guy is on the back bench. And he’s had at least a week to prepare a piece for the Hendry extension.

And for the record Al, I’m with you. One year of Marquis at 10 million sounds reasonable. Once upon a time, someone got value for Matt Morris in a mid-season trade. It’s more than possible.

by Damen Jackson on Oct 21, 2008 8:52 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Farm System More Important Now

If the financial constraints on the Cubs are true, the scouting of players to be a part of the farm system and developing players in the minors is more important than ever. The Cubs system has improved some in recent years but needs to improve more. With position players, we have seen guys like Theriot and Soto come up and be productive. We need more good position players to be developed through our farm system.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Oct 21, 2008 9:00 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed.

That’s why Tim Wilken is such an important part of the front office. Maybe in 2-3 years we will finally see the system begin to produce from when he was brought aboard.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 9:12 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My thoughts are identify the real problem

Cubs since June 1st 2007 are the best regular season team in the NL…period. But it appears they are not built to win in the playoffs.

They need a real ACE in the starting pitching.
They need a real clean up hitter
They need a real lead off hitter
They need better defense, especially in the middle infield.

Forget the names.

Let us start with pitching and defense…boring stuff but a real ACE is needed to make Zambrano, Harden and whomever better.

Clean up hitter, Ramirez is a very good #5 or #6 hitter….(as he was in 2003) but he is not the clean up hitter. Either find a real one or replace him.

In field defense: Theriot is a gutty player whom I think is better as a platooning 2B but not the SS where a real glove is needed. Fill in the name

Lead off hitter. In basketball that is the point guard, it is the person who starts everything and the person the other team must adjust to and why a high OBP and top base running and top run scorer is your lead off hitter. Soriano is neither. He is a better #2 or #3 but not #1.

Find me a lead off hitter.

As for the changes I think trading Ramirez or Lee for real value is an option….both can be categorized as trading an year early instead of year late. The thing is if the Yanks are willing to overpay for Sabathia and Texierra why not the Cubs?

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Oct 21, 2008 11:54 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Biggest Concern: Lead-Off Hitter

The best potential lead-off guy the Cubs have is Theriot. He had an OBP of .387 this past season. I am concerned that he got thrown out too much stealing this season. He doesn’t strike out too much. The Cubs are never going to go anywhere in October with Soriano leading off. I don’t know if Theriot is the answer to lead off, but I do know the Cubs need to figure this issue out.

"The big possum walks late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Oct 21, 2008 12:55 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So move him to 2B and platoon him with Fonty

or trade Fonty for real value….but SS is a problem defensively—-period.

The bigger question is ACE and cleanup….maybe Soriano in the 3rd spot might help out but the playoffs have shown our bats in the middle went silent.

Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."

by Ivy Walls on Oct 21, 2008 1:07 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Depending on what you do with the outfield, DeRosa could be moved for a SS. I think solving the SS position fixes a whole lot of problems.

by dr stabbingworth on Oct 21, 2008 1:31 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeech

See bren’s comments above on this 3 spot idea. I don’t see this being a good idea. It would be awesome when he is hot and there are men on base, but geez when he is cold it would be terrible. No question Sori needs to be further down in the lineup.

by StevenABQ on Oct 21, 2008 4:50 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm still not set on getting rid of Marquis.

He’s the best #5 starter in the league, as most of us here have been saying all year. Granted, Nolasco would make a better #5 (I don’t think he would be slotted there, but you get what I mean), but I still like Jason for those dog-days of July and August when Zambrano is going f-ing crazy and Lilly is giving up dongs like it’s his hobby.

Dan

Evey Hammond: Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici. V: By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

by dtpollitt on Oct 21, 2008 9:00 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You've got a point Danny boy... (and top o' the mornin' to ya)...

Think of it this way: would you give up the best 5th starter in the NL if it would allow you to get that big LH bat that the middle of the line-up needs? 5th starters are not vitally important, if they go .500, then the team & the rotation breaks even. In one way or another, the Cubs can fill the 5th starter’s spot internally, and free up needed money for that LH bat they need. I too, think Jason is much maligned, (but sometimes rightfully so), and is only slightly overpaid. The market for pitchers has gone up dramatically; you’ve got the guys making league minimum, guys making like 45 mil., guys making like 10 mil., (seems to be a lot of these guys now), then the top tier 15 mil. plus guys. My point is this: Marquis is attractive, even at his price, to teams in the AL, NL somewhat less. Let’s finally get that bat! (and not Millar).

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 9:07 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And let's not forget...

that it is effectively a one-year deal. It’s not like the Cards, who ponied up 40 million for Lohse on a multi-year deal.

I suppose another thing to keep in mind, is that in reality Rich Harden is likely to be your 5th starter next season, if only to start. I mean, that’s the most likely strategy to keep him fresh, and give him those shoulder breaks. Does your opinion on Marquis change if he’s now a guy making 32-35 starts for the Cubs next season?

by Damen Jackson on Oct 21, 2008 9:28 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Smart point.

I just feel like the Cubs have the resources and pitching depth that it doesn’t make sense to waste innings on a guy like Marquis who has no upside.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 21, 2008 10:50 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree...

I mean, Marquis and cash to the Mets for Ryan Church makes all the sense in the world to me. But what do I know?

by Damen Jackson on Oct 21, 2008 11:14 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd love to get Church.

I was pushing him last year over Fukudome. The guy does seem to get injured a good bit, though.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 21, 2008 11:17 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I won't hold a concussion against him,

but I see your point. But spell him 20-30 times a season with Mark DeRosa and you might just kill two birds with one stone.

by Damen Jackson on Oct 21, 2008 11:21 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If we dump Marquis...

…we must keep Marshall! There’s no way we can count on Gaudin or Samarjia(I know I mis-spelled that) to fill in if Harden goes down. Also, Marshall is good for mop-up work!

"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields

by calicubfan on Oct 21, 2008 11:42 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If we dump Marquis...

…we must keep Marshall! There’s no way we can count on Gaudin or Samarjia(I know I mis-spelled that) to fill in if Harden goes down. Also, Marshall is good for mop-up work!

"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields

by calicubfan on Oct 21, 2008 11:42 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's hope Hill can make a comeback

That would add a ton of pitching depth and allow us to ship Marquis out without a worry. I’m very excited to see the results of his next performance.

by dr stabbingworth on Oct 21, 2008 1:33 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Amen .. however ..

Hill won’t be on the radar next year unless he has a Dempster like morphing into an uberstarter that catches Lou when he’s in a good mood looking around camp.

Well, Next Year is here .. and Jack's century's gotta end some time .. GO CUBBIES!

by cubnational on Oct 21, 2008 2:29 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He IS no such thing.

He may have BEEN the best 5th starter in the league. And, hell of a way to set the bar low going in.

The fact is that Jason Marquis is a mediocre pitcher who had a good year. He’s still Jason Marquis, and if you can dump him, dump him.

by cwyers on Oct 21, 2008 9:57 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now, now...

That “good year” is pretty much in line with his career norms. He IS indeed a mediocre pitcher, which is why the statement “best #5 starter in the league” makes sense. Most teams don’t have mediocre pitchers as #5 starters.

Is Marquis ever going to be a top-notch pitcher? No. But with the injury questions regarding Harden, the uncertainty surrounding retaining Dempster, and the concerns as to whether Hill will ever get his command back, one season of Marquis isn’t the worst thing in the world.

by SouthernCub on Oct 21, 2008 5:02 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More likely Marquis than Lee

We can dump Marquis and replace him easily. Replacing Lee will not be easy. I’ve thought a lot about this since yesterday calling for his trade. We can’t forget Lee did produce in the postseason, our two other big bats Soriano and Aram did not. I called for Lee dropping in the order, maybe to #6 and starting out spring training (or even now with a phone call from Gerald Perry) saying we want to hit for power and forget the high average strategy. This means we need a run producer in the 3 hole and it has to come from two places: we either move Soriano to the 3 spot and get an aggressive leadoff man that may be our spark (for no better term) or a right fielder and move Fuk into center. The only other idea would be to have Soto move to #3, which is is suited for. This still leaves the gaping hole called spark plug. Good luck Jim in finding the missing piece.

This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).

by mrcubsfan on Oct 21, 2008 10:12 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Soriano can not bat third

Hes way to wild to hit in what is traditionally the most important spot in the order.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 21, 2008 1:22 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Many here want him out of the leadoff spot,

where would you put him?

This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).

by mrcubsfan on Oct 21, 2008 1:54 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Vote for 6th

Behind Soto, lower in the order where he can contribute when hot, but not be the cooler he can be when he is not.

by StevenABQ on Oct 21, 2008 1:59 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Anywhere between 4th and 7th

I say 4th, b/c he can swing away all he wants if hes behind Ramirez and ahead of Soto and/or Lee, and he certainly has the power to hit in that spot.

If they can get a lefty power hitter then I would go ( 3-4-5) Ramirez, Lefty Power Hitter, Soriano, Lee, Soto, Derosa.

So anywhere 4-6, but hes not a good enough hitter to hit 3rd.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 21, 2008 3:24 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah I can see that

I guess consistency would be my main concern if he hits ahead of Lee in the scenario you propose. Lots of agreement on him not hitting 3rd though.

by StevenABQ on Oct 21, 2008 4:00 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well its all up to Lou

So if they dont get a real leadoff hitter, I cant imagine he’ll be in a rush to change anything.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 21, 2008 4:07 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Smart move is to wave bye-bye to Ryan Dempster

I’m on record as saying it will be mistake to sign Dempster to 4 year deal for the money he can command. While pitching is indeed KING I am okay with letting Dempster walk and turning to internal options or modest acquisition to fill a role in the starting rotation. Sean Marshall is deserving of a shot to make the rotation. Chad Gaudin is also a decent option. Plus there is always ability to pick up a reclamation project ala the signing of Jon Lieber.

To be honest? I’m actually GLAD that Hendry has some financial handcuffs for a change. Instead of blindly handing over blank checks, back-loaded contracts and no-trade clauses lets see Hendry operate like a real GM for a change. I bet we might be pleasantly surprised by the results.

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 10:13 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I suggested three years and a mutual option for Dempster.

That protects the Cubs in case he sucks after three years.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 10:27 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your methodology is good grasshopper...

but your assessment of the situation is faulty. Dempster will not command the money that some think he will, nor will he command the years some think either. What will likely happen is that Demp will be signed to an incentive laden deal for 2 yrs. and a mutual option for a third year. Dempster has managed to stay healthy, and this makes him valuable to the Cubs. If he falls off from what he did last year, then he’s a more than serviceable 4th or 5th starter. If the bull pen falters, and the Cubs have internal options for the rotation, he can go back to the ’pen.

One of your favorite sayings is “pitching is king”, right? How does that fit with your assessment of the Dempster dilemma?

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 10:28 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Disagree STRONGLY

If Kyle Lohse can get 4 years and $41 million?? If Jeff Suppan can get 4 years and $44 million?? If Ted Lilly can get 4 years and $40 million?? If Gil Meche can get 5 years and $55 million??

Then Ryan Dempster is going to have ZERO problem readily commanding a 4 year contract in the neighborhood of $45 million guaranteed. Especially when you consider all those big money teams out there with screaming need for pitching to include the Yankees and Mets.

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 10:51 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What I am saying is that Dempster will not demand that type of money...

He could get it. He has already gone on record saying that he wants to remain a Cub. I think the Cubs want him back b/c of the versatility he offers the pitching staff, and I believe Demp wants to prove to the Cubs, (not another team), that he is worthy of making big money. This is why I think he signs a 2 or 3 yr. deal, with a mutual option for the 3rd or 4th year.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 11:20 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's not going to walk away from tens of millions of dollars.

I know he loves playing here, but there are some major factors to consider – Dempster had a (rather unlikely) career year during a contract year, and this is likely to be the final big contract of his career.

When this contract is up, he’s going to be in his mid-30’s, and, due to age and/or a return to career norms, he’s incredibly unlikely to have his current level of bargaining power ever again.

Loving your team and hometown discounts are one thing… but Dempster isn’t a young guy looking past this contract to the next contract… he’s 31, and this is likely to be the final major payday he’s ever going to see.

And this contract is likely to be worth twice much as all of his previous MLB paydays combined.

It’s easily the biggest business decision of Ryan Dempster’s life, and will have a material affect on the next 40 years for him.

Put simply, Dempster isn’t going to pass on a 4/48 deal and leave tens of millions of dollars on the table in order to take a 2-year deal with an option year and only $20-ish million guaranteed.

It will never happen. I’m a huge Cub fan, and if I were Ryan’s agent, I would slap him in the face if he even considered signing such a deal.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Oct 21, 2008 3:13 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I never said he would walk away from tens of millions...

What I did say was that he will sign a 2 or 3 year deal, with guaranteed money close to what he would get with another team, with a mutual option year and incentives that could boost it up to above what he could make with another team.

With all this said, it is my opinion, based on factual evidence that Demp wants to stay here, and realizes that one year back as a starter, (albeit a great year), will not necessarily mean that he can command how much dough and how many years he can obtain.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 3:19 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There will be guaranteed offers up around 4 years / $50M

Signing a 3-year deal for, say, $30M, plus a non-guaranteed mutual option year at $12M, is leaving quite a bit of money on the table.

Obviously, he’d still be making tons of cash in such a scenario, but he’d also be an arm injury (or return to ineffectiveness) away from leaving $20M+ on the table.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Oct 21, 2008 3:26 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here's an example of a player taking less years to stay with their current team:

Mike Lowell signed a 3 year deal last offseason in order to stay with the Red Sox. I’m almost positive he was offered 4 years by at least one other team (can’t remember which team off hand ) but opted to stay with the Red Sox.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Oct 21, 2008 11:41 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He got 3 years/$39 million from Boston

He definitely could have gotten a 4th year from someone, but the situation differs from Dempster in several ways.

First, the annual salary from Boston was at the top of what he was getting offered, at $13M/year. The total dollars could have been bigger with a 4th year included, but not the annual paycheck.

Second, unlike Dempster, Lowell’s awesome contract year wasn’t the entire basis of his value. He’d had several other good years in his career – and he was a position player, so the perceived injury risk is smaller. (Of course, he immediately went out and got hurt.) Dempster probably feels a bit more pressure to capitalize on his awesome 2008.

Third, and most importantly, Lowell had made about twice as much cash as Dempster over the course of his career. Dempster’s made a nice pile of cash in his career – but when it’s all said and done, this next contract will be worth about 66% of Dempster’s entire career earnings. Dempster has to be feeling some additional pressure to cash out on this contract.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Oct 21, 2008 3:23 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's nice to see you've changed your mind on Sean Marshall.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 21, 2008 11:16 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cut the crap Al
The Rays are in the World Series on talent — but also because I think they don’t know they’re not supposed to be this good. They never thought about winning for one second, I think — they just went out and did it.

If you’ve watched any Rays playoff games, you know their motto from spring training was “9=8”. They’ve been thinking playoffs all season. What tripe!

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Oct 21, 2008 10:19 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tripe, sure.

Because everyone knows slogans win championships. Right?

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 10:27 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your 2008 Detroit Lions...

“At least Millen is gone.”

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 21, 2008 10:29 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As they go about proving they can go 0-16 without him.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 10:32 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

EXACTLY.

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 21, 2008 10:45 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Things won't change until Ford sells or dies

Hoping for the former before the latter.

Never, but NEVER, put ketchup on a hot dog.

by CaliCub on Oct 21, 2008 11:02 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's not about the slogan

It’s about your claim that the Rays are winning because they weren’t thinking of winning. Obviously, expectations of a playoff appearance were set from the beginning. I just don’t understand how anyone could think that low expectations by a team could lead to great results.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Oct 21, 2008 10:38 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well...Lets put this into a little perspective

The media’s reaction to the Rays tanking game 5 and losing game 6 pails in comparision to what the reaction would have been if the Cubs had done that. Not having the pressure of expectations from the fan base and a 100 draught, had to help keep those guys loose. Likewise, lets not kid ourselves that these players from Tampa feel like they owe the Tampa Bay area anything. These guys have played in front of small crowds all year and probably feel no loyalty to their fan base. It comes down to them and do they want to win themselves. Right, wrong or indifferent, the Rays do not have the same 500 Pound Gorilla in the room that the cubs do.

"Sports are a crazy business. If there was a template, we'd all be champions, right? But there's one winner and 29 or 30 losers; one guy wins, everybody else is tied for last. That's the way it works" -- Mark Cuban

by TheRiot Police on Oct 21, 2008 10:46 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh boy

I totally disagree with you. After the Red Sox miracle comeback in Game 5 and then all the way thru Game 6 and up to the point of the Rays taking the lead in Game 7, all that was talked about is how this was going to be another miracle Red Sox comeback. Even the proprietor of this site flatly stated a couple of times that the Red Sox would win Game 7 and most likely in a blowout.

It was just assumed that the Rays were going down.

You could even see the fear of impending doom on the faces of their fans.The Rays were under unbelievable pressure to fight their way through all that when it appeared that nobody outside of the team thought they could win. Don’t sell them short. The Rays can legitamitely adopt that old phrase from when Cassius Clay first beat Sonny Liston; they “shook up the world!” The baseball world, anyway.

You are also wrong in thinking the Rays do not play to their fans. While it is true that it took a long time for the fans to get behind the team, for the playoff run up until now, the fans have been energized by the never say die attitude that the Rays have exhibited. The crowds in Tampa have been much more racuous than say, the crowds at Wrigley field during Games 1 and 2 of the NLDS, even when it looked like the Rays were going to become another victim of a miracle Red Sox comeback.

by azjazzman on Oct 21, 2008 11:13 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Find me an article where the national media

was talking about the Rays choking. Sure, folks were talking about the Red Sox making another miracle comeback…but they were not talking as much about the Rays choking it away. Everything was focused on the Red Sox comeback. The point was that if this had been the Cubs, the media would have focused on the Choke as opposed to the comeback. How many people remember the 03 series for the Marlins comeback and how many remember it for the Bartman crap.

Furthermore, I did not read one article from the national media where Maddon was criticized for not bringing in Howell to pitch to Ortiz in Game 5. That was a total brain cramp on Maddon’s part and instead the Media focused in on the Red Sox’s come back instead of the tactical errors made by Maddon to make that comeback possible. Lou would have been crucified if he made that mistake.

Win or lose this WS and I guarentee that the Rays will be playing in front of 10,000 fans again next year. Their fans will not care. Sure, they are going to be few thousand legit rays fans upset if the lose but it will not be the gloom and doom that it is here. I just don’t buy that the Tampa players feel like they owe the fans anything. Whereas, with Chicago, I think that the players feel the burden of the drought and ending it as much as for the fans as for themselves.

"Sports are a crazy business. If there was a template, we'd all be champions, right? But there's one winner and 29 or 30 losers; one guy wins, everybody else is tied for last. That's the way it works" -- Mark Cuban

by TheRiot Police on Oct 21, 2008 11:51 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know if we are really in a position to question the motives

of the Ray’s fans. The got to the WS because they are a pretty good team. Your rant sounds a little like sour grapes.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 21, 2008 11:55 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is not sour grapes

Just a reality of Florida Baseball at this point. They are two cases we could examine in regards to the Marlins and how their two successful WS runs affected their attendence the following years.

Since the Rays do not have to blow up their team like the Marlins did, it will be interesting to re-examine this particular case next year. Will the WS run and potential win, increase attendence during the next regular season or will it have zero to little impact

"Sports are a crazy business. If there was a template, we'd all be champions, right? But there's one winner and 29 or 30 losers; one guy wins, everybody else is tied for last. That's the way it works" -- Mark Cuban

by TheRiot Police on Oct 21, 2008 12:31 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The folks on XM radio baseball channel

were all over Maddon for that “non-move”. First time I had heard them be critical of him for anything but they spent a whole day crucifying him in the same way that I’m sure Lou would have been for the same thing. This is the Buck Martinez, Rob Dibble, Kevin Kennedy group.

The Rays do have talent, they have known it all year and they play like they are having fun. I didn’t want them to go to the series before the Cubs but they deserve where they are, especially for not choking in game 7. “I’ll have whatever she’s having.”

And actually, I have heard one of the Rays, I think Longoria, say on the air that they felt like they did owe the fans something to show for 10 years of horrible results. He might have been talking about the 10,000 or the 50,000, I don’t know but the team was certainly sensitive to their “fans.”

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 21, 2008 12:01 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maybe they did...

but I would not subscribe that XM is the national media…at least not to the point of other outlets.

The point I was really trying to get across and maybe I did a poor job of writing was this.

That most of the media reacted differently to the outcomes of Game 5/6 then they would have if the Cubs would have done been on the short end of that stick. The media clearly choose to stick to the Miracle Red Sox for the most part and stay away from the choking rays storyline. I think if the shoe was on the other foot, they would have stayed with the choking Red Sox (maybe not so much now)/Cubs as opposed to the miracle Rays.

I truly believe that if the Red Sox would have won game 7, that series would have been known more for the Red Sox coming back then for the Rays Choking it. However, in 03, the Cubs are known more for choking it then for the Marlins winning it.

"Sports are a crazy business. If there was a template, we'd all be champions, right? But there's one winner and 29 or 30 losers; one guy wins, everybody else is tied for last. That's the way it works" -- Mark Cuban

by TheRiot Police on Oct 21, 2008 12:42 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why not just admit

you were wrong rather than nitpick?

In fact, Dennis Eckersly questioned Maddon’s moves/non-moves in Game 5 in the post game analysis on TBS. Or does TBS not fit your definition of national media?

As I have already mentioned the storyline was different in 2003 because of the Cubs history of failure/choking in post season. Also, the perception is skewed because of regional bias. In LA, most of the NLDS stories were about the Dodgers continued hot streak. In Chicago, naturally, it was about the Cubs, having won 97 games, going down in a sweep. Of course, the main storyline is afftected by what city it eminates from.

by azjazzman on Oct 21, 2008 12:48 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am not nitpicking

and I don’t consider TBS post game analysis to be National Media.

We can agree to disagree on our points. You are entitled to your opinion just like I am entitled to mine.

"Sports are a crazy business. If there was a template, we'd all be champions, right? But there's one winner and 29 or 30 losers; one guy wins, everybody else is tied for last. That's the way it works" -- Mark Cuban

by TheRiot Police on Oct 21, 2008 12:53 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree to disagree

But, just out of curiosity…how is XM radio and TBS not national media?

You are right, that isn’t nitpicking, that is just looney.

BTW, USA Today and The Sporting News both had articles that include a questioning of Maddon’s Game 5 moves,. but I suppose they are not national media either in your book.

by azjazzman on Oct 21, 2008 12:58 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wahhh...

Here is why the two stories were presented like that

Fact: The Cubs not only choked in 2003, but in 1984 and 1969.

Fact: The Red Sox authored the greatest comeback in baseball history in 2004 and then did another one in 2007.

The Cubs have a history of choking. The Red Sox have a recent history of coming back.

It’s on the Cubs to change the story. Show a backbone once and the media will cover you differently. Until then ,shut up

The worst beer I had was pretty good.

by Worf on Oct 21, 2008 12:56 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rebuttal
  1. There were plenty of articles all over the country prior to game 7 about the Rays choking and the reasons for same. They are not hard to find. Most of those articles referenced questionable moves by Maddon in Game 5 (which was not the one most second guessed). While it is true that the bigger story was the possibility of yet another Red Sox comeback, the Rays side of the equation was analyzed ad nauseum. The only thing that kept it from being the bigger story was the fact that a) the Red Sox had done this before…several times, in fact, and b) the Rays ultimately did NOT choke the series away. That is the biggest difference between the Cubs and the Rays. Your history of choking does not become the bigger story until you actually do it a few times!
  1. I’ll be happy to bet you that the Rays do not play before 10,000 fans next year. In fact, for all the crticism the Rays have taken, they actually averaged over 22,000 fans this year and you can rest assured it will be better next year. Every time a team makes the WS for the first time in a long time, or in this case, for the first time EVER, it takes a year for the fans to catch up. You really can’t blame the Rays fans for thinking this year would turn out to be a mirage. But, now that is has proven to be real, the fans will show up. There is always an attendance bump the year after a team has it’s first success.

by azjazzman on Oct 21, 2008 12:41 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well...ya can't say everytime

The Marlins actually drew an average of almost 8,000 fans less the year following their 97 WS.

You might be right…but I don’t bet.

"Sports are a crazy business. If there was a template, we'd all be champions, right? But there's one winner and 29 or 30 losers; one guy wins, everybody else is tied for last. That's the way it works" -- Mark Cuban

by TheRiot Police on Oct 21, 2008 12:55 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

But that was after they decimated the team and defiantly alienated their fan base. Kind of a unique situation.

by azjazzman on Oct 21, 2008 1:01 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe so...

we shall see…

"Sports are a crazy business. If there was a template, we'd all be champions, right? But there's one winner and 29 or 30 losers; one guy wins, everybody else is tied for last. That's the way it works" -- Mark Cuban

by TheRiot Police on Oct 21, 2008 1:01 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The media stopped criticizing Madden because his team won eventually.

lou is criticized because his team did not win. yet, he has escaped the worst, I think. The players have been the targets of the critics, deservedly so. They did not execute two years in a row.

by Fraggin Judge on Oct 21, 2008 4:31 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I give up...

I guess my perception of how the media handled games 5 and 6 and the whole entire ALCS is incorrect.

All I was trying to do was give my opinion on how I thought the media handled the series and how I think the main storyline between games 5 to 7 could have been two different things (1…the comeback or 2…the choke) and given the teams involved they choose IMO to pour most of their time and energy in discussing the comeback. If the team losing was another team who had a history of underperforming (contrary to popular belief it is not just the cubs), they may have chosen to spend most of their time discussing the potential collapse.

"Sports are a crazy business. If there was a template, we'd all be champions, right? But there's one winner and 29 or 30 losers; one guy wins, everybody else is tied for last. That's the way it works" -- Mark Cuban

by TheRiot Police on Oct 21, 2008 4:56 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well...

… I think you misunderstand what I’m saying. I do know that Maddon created that slogan (kinda lame, if you ask me). But I don’t think that put any pressure whatsoever on them. They played loose all year. Why?

I really don’t know. Maybe Maddon did that for them. Maybe Troy Percival helped. Maybe Cliff Floyd helped. If you can figure out the reason, tell Jim Hendry. Soon.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 10:46 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you're overestimating the value of a cheerleader

There are plenty of guys on the 2008 Cubs with World Series rings. We also have one who not only has a ring but has a reputation as a Millar-ish jokester in the clubhouse, keeping guys laughing and loose.

I really don’t think adding a cheerleader is going to be the make-or-break next year. But we have no way of knowing what goes on behind closed doors so it’s all speculation.

by Wreckard on Oct 21, 2008 11:14 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What helps the most

is having people who lead by example, who step up on the big stage and pull the other guys along. Like D. Lee and DeRosa did in the NLDS.

That is why, IMO, trading DLee is a step backward for this team, not a step forward.

It is amazing how contagious success is…and failure, even moreso.

by azjazzman on Oct 21, 2008 11:17 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't see Lee as that much of a leader.

And in that, may lie part of the problem.

Further, that Millar-ish jokester was the first on-field failure. When Dempster failed, I think everyone else played tight.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 1:07 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Lee is a leader

but in a quiet, not-very-assertive kind of way. He’d be good in middle management, but not as a CEO.

One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.

by chilango2 on Oct 21, 2008 1:09 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Enough with Millar...

Millar didn’t make Johnny Damon relax. That dude was always relaxed. Millar didn’t make Manny relax. Manny was a space cadet. Millar didn’t make Curt Schilling relax. Curt Schilling was always uber-intense. Pedro was the same ole’ Pedro, just with less dominant stuff.

Millar is, in my opinion, the most overrated aspect of the 2004 Red Sox. That team had a bunch of really good players who happened to catch fire after getting killed in the first three games of a series. Millar just made himself a media accessory by having a big mouth.

by SouthernCub on Oct 21, 2008 5:09 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Very well put

n/t

One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.

by chilango2 on Oct 21, 2008 5:21 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right...

but if he takes pressure off of other players (Ramirez, et al) by being a media accessory and keeping the media from questioning others about their struggles, wouldn’t that be a positive?

I love to play baseball. I'm a baseball player. I've always been a baseball player. I'm still a baseball player. That's who I am. - Ryne Sandberg

by Trey2317 on Oct 21, 2008 7:08 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think he really took pressure off of other players...

as Pedro, Schilling, etc certainly didn’t mind talking with the media, either.

Moreover, even if Millar did actually take the media attention away, I think we have plenty of guys on this team that don’t mind chatting with the media that could fill that role just fine. I REALLY think that searching for the “Millar effect” is a red herring.

by SouthernCub on Oct 21, 2008 8:32 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How, exactly, has D-Lee stepped up in the NLDS?

He has a bunch of bases empty singles, but has failed – in grand fashion – in every situation with runners on base in two straight NLDS sweeps.

Prior to his “single advancing Fontenot to second” in 2008 NLDS Game 3, Lee was 0-9 with runners on base in the last 2 NLDS, with 4 K, 3 GIDP, a popout, and a 6-3.

Granted, a handful of bases empty singles is better than the Soriano and Aramis contributions, but it’s not worth the adulation he gets around here.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Oct 21, 2008 3:31 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

It’s not so much a jester that the Cubs need – it’s an organizational paradigm shift where they show trust to players who haven’t “earned” it yet and then have those players want to live up to the expectations of a team investing in their future.

And for what it’s worth, we traded a jester to the Phillies, so I doubt the Cubs agree on the jester point.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 21, 2008 11:24 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Was that comic supposed to be offensive?

I think some people need to lighten up a little bit.

by salparadise23 on Oct 21, 2008 10:41 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I didn't say it was offensive.

I said it played into the same tired old stereotypes, stuff we’d like to get past forever. In doing so, it wasn’t even funny.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 10:47 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not to us, but to the rest of the world it is

And changing that starts with us as a fanbase — you and I agree on this point.

The reason that it’s funny to others is, a vocal (minority?) segment of the Cub fan base is just that cartoonish:

People who are geniunely outraged when visiting another stadium that doesn’t play TMOTTBG during the seventh inning stretch (I once saw a Cub fan boo “God Bless America” at County Stadium shortly after Uecker’s “Root, root, root for the Brewers”. I did tell him how stupid that was and he realized it, but was still upset . . . )

People who are incensed when fans don’t throw back opposing home run balls. If I catch it and I want it, I’m keeping it.

People who think that the Cubs became popular because of Harry Caray. They ddn’t draw in his first year with the team (1983) – they drew when the team fielded a winner. Harry, Mr. “Cub Convention” didn’t even attend the first one in 1986, but the marketing machine will spin a different tale.

People who think that TMOTTBG ends with, “Let’s get some runs”, and are upset if someone doesn’t say that.

People who will actually wait in line to get a picture taken with a toothless, sexegenarian windshield washer who wears a full Cubs uniform EVERYWHERE he goes and says “woo!” — or girls who let him grope them.

People who excorcise non-existent curses year after year, or eat pieces of a baseball in a pasta dish.

Like it or not, that’s who we are to the rest of the sports world. It isn’t all of us, nor even most of us, but it’s the image that’s projected.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Oct 21, 2008 2:38 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Cubs did become popular around the country because of Harry.

It is true that they drew once they began winning, but WGN built a large fan base broadcasting every Cubs game, with the lovable Harry Caray as their voice. It was 1982 when Harry came to the North side also, not ’83.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 4:30 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're right about 1982

However, Jack Brickhouse was also a popular voice. Being the only game on most of the time when the Cubs were at home, and being on WGN was MUCH more responsible for the popularity than Harry was. They were on, with a wide reach, and little competition.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Oct 21, 2008 7:17 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ok, ok, ok...

I’ve got the whole offseason strategy solved.

1. Trade Alfonso Soriano, Derrek Lee and Ronny Cedeno to San Francisco for Aaron Rowand and Matt Cain (yes Virginia, pigs DO fly and there is a sucker out there for Soriano in my fantasy)

2. Sign Adam Dunn under the presumption that the big lumox can play tolerable enough 1st base

3. Sign Raul Ibanez to play left field

4. Re-sign Kerry Wood to an incentive laden two year deal with an option year

5 Let Ryan Dempster walk

Rotation….Zambrano, Lilly, Harden, Cain, Marquis

Pen…Wood, Marmol, Spellcheck, Gaudin, Marshall, Guzman

Lineup…

1. Theriot — SS
2. DeRosa — 2nd, RF
3. Rowand — CF
4. Ramirez — 3rd
5. Dunn — 1st
6. Soto — Cat
7. Ibanez — LF
8. Johnson — RF / Fontenot — 2nd

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 11:16 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For someone who likes to laugh openly at people for ridiculous trade proposals

I think that one takes the cake. Soriano, Lee, and Cedeno for Rowand and Cain?

Maybe they’ll throw in Lincecum if we ask nice too.

by Wreckard on Oct 21, 2008 11:19 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lincecum sucks

Nothing more than a Jason Marquis wannabe

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 11:20 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sigh...

Humor LOST on audience.

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 2:21 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's just that you have such a reputation for breaking balls that when

you do make a joke, everyone assumes that you just arguing with them. Maybe that’s an indication that you should take things a bit easier. Ease up and enjoy life, man. You’re going to give yourself a heart-attack.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 21, 2008 2:25 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And... that's the ballgame, folks.

From now on you are legally obligated to consider everything he says as utter claptrap.

by cwyers on Oct 21, 2008 11:51 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

any one else miss this over the last few weeks?

all we need now is a complaint about sabermagicians and it’ll feel like baseball season again.

by Madison Cub Fan on Oct 21, 2008 12:06 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's called a JOKE you humorless fool

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 2:21 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh please.

How am I supposed to differentiate between when you’re kidding and when you’re coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs? I mean, seriously. If I just considered everything you said as some sort of weird metahumor I’d…

I wouldn’t have to take you seriously at all.

This is FANTASTIC.

by cwyers on Oct 21, 2008 2:36 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow.

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 21, 2008 12:05 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Forgery???

I’m still waiting for the disregard that statement.

by dr stabbingworth on Oct 21, 2008 1:40 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Warning

After watching 5 years of DLee at first base, Cubs fans will go into a coma if they have to endure Adam Dunn playing there. He is not just a poor fielding first baseman, he is one of the worst I have ever seen. A latter day Dr. Strangeglove! (Al and a few others are old enough to remember Dick Stuart).

Believe it or not, he is a better corner outfielder than he is a 1st baseman, and with his slow speed, bad hands and poor decisions, he still sucks in the outfield.

Offensively, Dunn has some upside…the walks offset the strikeouts and he has a decent OBP, but he really needs to go the AL and DH for somebody.

by azjazzman on Oct 21, 2008 11:24 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dream on...

You can’t just plug in players and expect like results. I for one do not want to go back to the days of the roster filled with guys who have already out-lived their use. As for the others who are currently Cubs, Theriot is not a lead-off hitter; and would be hard pressed to have to do that duty on a daily basis. Johnson is not an everyday guy, and he doesn’t hit RH pitchers, with a back issue that requires rest to boot. DeRosa can play RF, but is not an outfielder- and you can not have him play there all the time at the risk of exposing him. Likewise with Fontenot- who is a great bench player, and is not an everyday guy either. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again… Thank God you are not the Cubs GM.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 11:46 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is funny!

Not.

One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.

by chilango2 on Oct 21, 2008 1:07 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also looking younger and cheaper it would seem....

So that torpedos my fantasty of dumping Soriano on the Giants. Curses !!

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 11:18 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Context: the rest of that mailbag tells us the Giants would rather keep Cain and trade Jon Sanchez.

So the Giants might prefer to get a veteran for Sanchez than a younger player for Cain. That, indeed, is the challenge in trying to figure out what Sabean wants to do. In Sabean’s mind, he might rather have Alfonso Soriano than Delmon Young – it’s not too illogical after all. Sabean has cash, so Delmon’s cost-control isn’t an issue. And Delmon’s not hitting yet. He’s still young. He still has upside. But there’s also a reason a second team now wants to dump Delmon. Sabean also has a fondness for veterans. DLee’s still young for Sabean.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 21, 2008 12:24 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True, Young hasnt really lived up to his billing yet.

Primarily b/c people seem to think he’s gonna be a huge power hitter, whereas he may be more of a Bobby Abreu type of player….and if a second team in consecutive years is looking to deal him, he may not be worth the wait.

I wouldnt touch Jonathan Sanchez though, hes simply Oliver Perez reincarnated…..way to inconsistent.

The bottom line is the Giants NEED hitting, they have enough pitching and they need some fire power and some fan appeal to fill that beautiful stadium….so I suppose its not out of the realm of possibility that Sabean would want Lee or Soriano, its a matter of what they can get back, Cain might be too much, Sanchez to little….so maybe a three way deal is necessary.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 21, 2008 1:29 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jon Sanchez isn't Ollie Perez

he’s Jon Sanchez. As a 5th starter for us, he’s got the upside and health I want. Maybe a different pitching coach can help with consistency. If not, he’ll give us a chance to win half the games he starts.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 21, 2008 4:06 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sabean

has been quoted in the past three weeks as saying that Cain and Linceum are “untouchable”.

While this could be seen as posturing, I think it is safe to say it would take a “blow me away” offer to pry Cain from the GIants and none of the ones I have read here fall into that category.

by azjazzman on Oct 21, 2008 1:11 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for showing that comic strip

I am so sick of people thinking that Cub fans only want to go to Wrigley to party and treat it as a big beer garden. It is no different than most sporting events (especially football). With that sa1d… Cub fans have more knowledge of the game in their left pinky then most people have in their entire body. I would say 90% of the fans sitting at Wrigley know exactly what is going on during the game at any given moment. They know when to cheer and when to boo. They know the players on both teams. It just really bugs me the perception put on Cub fans. It is not true.

"We’ve still got a long ways to go, I don’t like to get giggly over things in July. But the team’s playing well, they really are. They’re playing with confidence, and it shows."

by Cubster on Oct 21, 2008 11:29 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ESPN radio says

it’s Soto and Longoria for rookie of the year. Didn’t want to create a post because I don’t have a better source.

James Loney, seriously?

by slocs55 on Oct 21, 2008 12:03 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Soto didnt win rookie of the year....

I think there might have been an uprising here on BCB. :)

by Madison Cub Fan on Oct 21, 2008 12:08 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jerome Walton

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 21, 2008 12:34 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nope, wasn't it Kid K?

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 21, 2008 12:35 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was indeed Kerry Wood in '98.

Jerome won in ’89. The same year his team mate Dwight Smith, took second place to him in ROY voting.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 12:38 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right

The only other two were Ken Hubbs and Billy Williams in consecutive years.

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 21, 2008 12:41 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Soto wins unanmiously...

He’ll be the third catcher ever to do so, following Carlton Fisk and Benito Santiago.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 21, 2008 1:13 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Those won't be officially announced till the WS is over.

Wonder where they got that info.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 1:08 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Sporting News announced them earlier today as the SN ROY,

but isn’t that a separate award from the BBWAA which is the “real” award?

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 21, 2008 1:18 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes, definitely.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 21, 2008 1:26 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here's an idea that is within the goofiness parameters of some of the suggestions here:

either

A. Don’t change a thing; keep exactly the same team intact regardless of cost and try it again.

B. Trade the whole team for the entire Rays team, and swap payrolls.

Al, I just reread War and Peace and your post was more enjoyable, shorter and had fewer characters to try to remember. Great job of teeing up some ideas and discussion.

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 21, 2008 12:24 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You can't keep the same team.

They tried that in ’99 after ’98, and the results were disastrous.

I know you were kidding (a bit), but they have to tweak it, at least.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 1:09 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know how to use that sarcasm sign thing

Just think the reality will be somewhere between those two extremes. We did seriously think they would do it in 1970 with mostly the same team and that didn’t work either.

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 21, 2008 1:13 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Guys

It’s a comic strip. Come on. Take the pain/frustration out somewhere else. The fact is, the Cubs lost, and until they win, there’s going to be more of this. If you can’t deal with that, well, then, not sure. But it’s no reason to be leading a mob to comic strip authors! That’s just fueling the fire, as seen in the comments on the strip. You come out looking even worse.

by lamentir on Oct 21, 2008 1:05 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So its either Dempster or Wood?

That Wittenmeyer article seemed to intimate that Wood might be beyond our reach if he wants to long a deal.

I dont see any reason why Marmol cant step right in and be one of the most dominant closers in the NL, if not all of MLB. The real dilemma would be who takes the 8th inning or course, maybe Ceda or Ascanio or even Cashner can mature quickly and fulfill that role, afterall Marmol surprised us by doing so.

Its really hard to imagine Kerry anywhere else though, but if they can do it w/o him, spend the money elsewhere.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 21, 2008 1:12 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think Woody or Demp are going anywhere.

Woody has consistently stated that he wants to remain a Cub for his career, and has taken deals from the Cubs to back that up. Demp has also stated a desire to stay with the Cubs. Expect both of them to sign with the Cubs & expect both to give a home town discount to the Cubs.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 1:14 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While I would love to agree with you...

I think “home-town discounts” are largely a thing of the past…We saw Wood take one last year so that he could PROVE his worth, and I think he did just that. What makes you think that he will do it again? He has been loyal to the core, and if the club doesn’t reward him, doesn’t he have the right to go elsewhere?

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 21, 2008 1:29 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good business decision by Wood...

He owes nothing to the Cubs, hes been more loyal than we can reasonably expect from a modern professional athlete….so if he wants to go home to Texas, more power to him. The fact is, we dont really need him, hes a big help sure, but not a necessity.

I wouldnt rely on Dempsters charity either, as was mentioned above, with the 11-12M/yr deals some rather mediocre starters have gotten in years past, he can expect to cash in on his 17 wins and sub 3 ERA.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 21, 2008 1:32 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think in these guys' eyes

“hometown discount” may come down to an option year, or a few hundred K…Probably not a few million…

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 21, 2008 1:33 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wood and his wife

have moved to Chicago and he said this past season they want to raise their family in Chicago.

by sue369 on Oct 21, 2008 4:50 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wood's wife is FROM the Chicago area...

…. I’d imagine she’d have considerable impact on where he plays.

Wood’s an unusual guy. Sure, he doesn’t owe the Cubs — or us — anything. But he seems to have an old-fashioned sense of loyalty, and I think “hometown discount” doesn’t really apply to him. He’s made a ton of money already. I think he simply wants to be a Cub.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 21, 2008 8:49 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought his wife

was from Chicago. I agree I think he wants to be a Cub too.

by sue369 on Oct 21, 2008 9:11 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure, he has the right to go elsewhere...

I think that the Cubs will be more than happy to reward him in line with his performance last year. The Cubs seem to have an organizational philosophy of taking chances on pitchers, (reclamation projects), that Dempster is one of them… His career was almost over, the Cubs took a chance signing him back in ‘04, he proved the Cubs faith in him as well deserved, and I believe that Demp is the kind of guy who is loyal- he always talks about it, and has stated again & again that he wants to remain a Cub. Now, he had a great year last year, but it’s still his first year back as a starter. Both Demp & his potential suitors know this- and any deal that he signs will likely be incentive laden, no matter who offers it.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 2:02 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Disagree.

I think he stands to make a lot of guaranteed money…There will definitely be guaranteed money on the table, why would he settle for an incentive-laden deal?

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 21, 2008 2:14 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's called loyalty. I just simply believe that Demp will be loyal.

He will have a lot of guaranteed money, but I also think it will be laden with many incentives. I don’t think Demp wants the pressure that all the guaranteed money would bring. I could be wrong, and if I am I will be the first to admit it. I don’t think I will be wrong though- and you heard it here first.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 2:21 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If athletes felt pressure from

guaranteed money deals, then I think there would be a lot more production…Just my honest opinion…

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 21, 2008 2:27 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I respect you and your honest opinion, I know that you are a loyal Cubs fan.

I also know that you are level headed, (which goes a long way in discussions such as these).

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 2:31 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Haha, thank you sir.

And I would be among the first if we can indeed get Demp at a reasonable deal, as I know you would…

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 21, 2008 2:42 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My roommates boss

was at a bar near Armitage, between Damen and Ashland and Wood was there last week. They had a mutual friend so they were all at the same table talking, Wood was buying drinks and I guess is a great guy, no surprise here. Anyways, he was saying him and Demp don’t want to leave Chicago and will do just about anything to stay here.

I would put my money on both of them being back.

James Loney, seriously?

by slocs55 on Oct 21, 2008 1:23 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh yeah,

I guess Wood left a little early and said he had to stop taking shots because he had to drive the kids to school the next morning, what a life.

James Loney, seriously?

by slocs55 on Oct 21, 2008 1:24 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Must be preschool

for his son. His daughter is not old enough for school.

by sue369 on Oct 21, 2008 1:26 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tim Lincecum

For crying out loud I make joke to Lincecum being Jason Marquis wannabe and the blog blows up. What is WRONG with some of you people? Ever hear of “humor”?

I’m dealing with morons around here.

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 2:23 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What's your day job, a social director?

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 21, 2008 2:27 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ROFL

All generalizations are false.

by Emelie on Oct 21, 2008 5:22 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You are just so funny

that your humor is so far above everyone…Seriously. You are amazing. Your baseball acumen is something that we are blessed with, and everyday, I think about how lucky I am to be able to read your insights.

Now THAT, my friends, is humor.

[Taking a bow]

Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow

by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 21, 2008 2:29 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah I wonder why no one gives you the benefit of the doubt

Couldn’t have been the way you act…. Nope, it must be the intelligence of the plebeians who you spend your valuable time writing hundreds of words each week to educate.

Not that they appreciate your wisdom like I do.

by Wreckard on Oct 21, 2008 2:41 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lighten up

Put the pipe cleaner attenaes back in your tin foil beanie and resume posting under saner condition.

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 2:47 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You obviously don't realize...

…how much time you spend insisting that people take you seriously when you say patently stupid things about baseball. That’s the only explanation I can come up with.

by cwyers on Oct 21, 2008 2:49 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Or how much time he takes

Going out of his way to insult other people.

Sometimes, I think people get on his case just because he’s Blue Mike and it’s out of line….but then sometimes, he asks for it.

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Oct 21, 2008 2:53 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I could give a rat's ass whether you or anybody take me seriously on an anonymous chat board pal...

There are plenty who I engage in good discussion with on this board. I have no interest in winning over anybody. Sorry Charlie.

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 3:09 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's an odd thing to say

…after you just got done reprimanding the board for taking you too seriously.

by Wreckard on Oct 21, 2008 3:09 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't give a flying leap whether you take me seriously or not....

I’m reminded of the following exchange where I am in the shoes of Tommy Lasorda when it comes to the level of concern I have for being taken seriously around here.
====
When: October 15, 1977
Background: Doug Rau starts game 4 of the world series. He gives up several hits in the third inning, and Tommy Lasorda heads for the mound to pull Rau from the game…

Lasorda: Just give me a sign Red when I get out there, I’ll mess around for some time. Ok?

(inaudible)

Lasorda: Fuck no. He can’t get them left-handers out, for Christ all fucking mighty.

Unknown Player: Fucking Jackson gets jammed on a fucking ball.

Rau: I feel good Tommy.

Lasorda: I don’t give a shit if you feel good, there’s four mother fucking hits up there.

Rau: They’re all hits the opposite way too.

Lasorda: I don’t give a fuck.

Rau: Tommy, we got a left handed hitter I can strike this mother fucker out.

Lasorda: I don’t give a shit, Dougy.

Unknown Player: I think you’re wrong this time, Tommy.

Lasorda: Well I may be wrong but that’s my god dammed job. I’ll make the…

Rau: I ain’t fucking hurting.

Lasorda: I’ll make the fucking decisions here.

Rau: You think I’m pitching that bad?

Lasorda: I’ll make the fucking decisions here, ok?

Rau: Its like there were three runs on the fucking board yesterday.

Lasorda: (enraged) I don’t give a fuck!

Unknown Player: Hey, hey, come on….

Rau: Hey Tommy I don’t have to take this shit!

Lasorda: Don’t give me any shit, god damn it! I’ll make the fucking decisions. Keep your fucking mouth shut, I told ya.

Unknown Player: This looks bad up here man. Just back off the mound. You want to talk about it talk about it inside…

Lasorda: You talk about it in my fucking office.

Rau: If I felt bad then I wouldn’t say nothing.

Unknown Player: I’m just saying talk about it inside. This is not the place to be talking about it.

Rau: Yeah, ok.

Unknown Player: Ok? That’s all I’m trying to say. Don’t jump on me, shit. I’m just trying to avoid a fucking scene out here, that’s all.

Lasorda: That’s right. Its fucking great for you to be standing out here talking to me like that.

Rau: If I didn’t feel good I wouldn’t say nothing.

Lasorda: I don’t give a shit, Doug. I’m the fucking manager of the fucking team. I’ve gotta make the fucking decisions, and I’ll make ‘em to the fucking best of my ability. They may be the fucking wrong decisions, but I’ll make it. Don’t worry about it. I’ll make the fucking decisions. I gave ya a fucking chance to walk out of here. I can’t fuck around we’re down two games to one. If it was yesterday that’s a different fucking story.

Rau: That’s a right handed hitter coming up….

Lasorda: I don’t give a shit. You got three, er, uh, left hand hitters and they all got fucking hits on ya. Rivers, Jackson and the fucking other guy. They got left handed – they all hit – that guy who just hit the ball was a left hander, wasn’t he?
(inaudible)

Rau: …pitch him to the inside part of the plate.

Lasorda: Dougy, I don’t give a shit whether you jammed him or not he got – he didn’t get out. I can’t – I can’t let you out there in a fucking game like this, I got a fucking job to do. What’s the matter with you?

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 3:14 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I couldn't have said it better myself. That post says it all about you, Bluemike.

??

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 21, 2008 3:21 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mike...

You come off on here as though you know all the right moves to make. You argue any point you bring up, as though you want to be taken seriously. Then you attempt to interject humor in the most humorless of ways. Do us all a favor Blue, leave the humor to professionals, and stop with the idiocy.

Now, I know you are going to attack me, so bring it on.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 3:27 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That seems to fit.

Just like Lasorda you consider your gut instincts to be gospel. When there is evidence to the contrary you don’t refute it you just act defensive and abrasive.

by Wreckard on Oct 21, 2008 3:31 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's a message board professor

By very definition what makes BCB tick is the back and forth exchange of opinions and proposals. We’re not curing cancer here. I dont’ participate on this board because I’m seeking approval or need acceptance.

So lighten up. If you can’t handle contrarian thinking or find it violation of various parts of the Constitution for someone to point criticism at certain Cub players then I can’t help you. More to the point, I don’t care.

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 3:35 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Both...

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 21, 2008 3:41 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I tire of pointing out your ignorance...

I tire of your defensiveness. I tire of your lack of baseball acumen. I know you are a Cubs fan, and very opinionated, but you seem to lack the ability to have a civilized discussion/debate when it comes to the Cubs.

So, my question is simple: are you trying to be offensive, or are you just merely stupid?

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 3:56 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think he's stupid

he just like to argue with anyone about anything. He will probably have a snarky reply to this post. When I first started reading these things I thought people were unfairly harsh with him but it didn’t take too long to realize he thrives on it.

I don’t care whether he has baseball knowledge or not; we all have opinions and that is what this place is for. I tire of wasting so much time reading all the posts to and from him that are just pointless arguing and have nothing really to do with baseball or the Cubs.

The ideal solution would be for him to start his own blog where he could set the rules and stay there and leave us alone here.

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 21, 2008 4:12 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think he's necessarily stupid either...

but it is a fair question to ask, when his reactions, and defensiveness are what he thrives on, yet denies that this is the case.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 4:21 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's a good point.

There has to be an explanation and that would be one. I never took Psychology so I don’t know.

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 21, 2008 4:26 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I studied philosophy...

It’s a classic case of know-it-all disease. Much like the epistemological crowd in philosophy.

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 4:33 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ah, now that's something I did waste a lot of time on

French deconstruction philosophy a la Derrida, Foulcault. I always thought their epistemology equaled their ontology. I never knew I would benefit from those years of graduate school.

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 21, 2008 4:38 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Philosophy is wonderful, no?

You know exactly what I’m saying… I’m a deconstructionist as well. Derrida is one of my favorites. I also gave a lot of time to Nietzsche. Do you work in the field, or are you a strayed philosopher, like me?

Jimmyeatworld

by Jimmyeatworld on Oct 21, 2008 4:41 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Strayed...

Never made a dime off of all that studies. I did meet Stanley Fish once and Derrida. Had a beer with Stanley; never got to say a word to Jacque. Gayatri Spivak (his translator and probably mistress) gave me one of her earrings at a seminar. That was when I used to wear one. Then I became an army officer. Go figure. The only constant in all that has been the Cubs. Damn them all to hell. I wasted my life.

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 21, 2008 4:46 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The day Foucault died was the last day I played competitive small ball

the whole team was actually into that and we dedicated the game to him and won.

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 21, 2008 4:50 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm sorry, Mike

What the fuck is that fucking tirade got to with anything going on here except that it fans your flames of thinking your’re really Tommy fucking Lasorda come down from on high to be the answer to all our prayers and solutions to all our problems. It was inappropriate, long and in bad taste and made yourself look like an arrogant, out of touch sycophant.

It’s obvious that all your energy is expended looking at your own shadow and being impressed with how your third person character deals with all the drivel on this blog. At the end of the day there is nothing of substance you have communicated and the only interaction achieved is pointless arguing for its own sake. Take that to the local VFW and find some bitter vietnam quadriplegic veteran and do your mean shit with him. Everyone will be better served by your insight and baseball knowledge that most of just dream to aspire to; no we spend the best years of our lives playing the game, getting to a point where we knew we were not going to be one of those chosen ones that you get to see down on the field three hours before taking batting practice and shaggin flies and joking about something we will never know the meaning of which because we aren’t on the field with them,. To write, no, to publish a one act play that you have obviously have fantazised about more than a little where you get to be Tommy and see through the fog of war that is baseball managing and yet make the right call at the end of the day goes a little further that what most sane individuals’ self-aggrandizement requires! It might make a cute skit at the HOF induction ceremonies next year.

Give up baseball and the Cubs, follow hockey or womens beach volleyball or horseracing, those sports that are 1 or 2 dimensional at most and you can probably stake out some good ground as the pre-eminent expert to be interviewed by ESPN and allowed to pitch your takes on things. Better yet, NASCAR. that’s your calling. GO FAST TURN LEFT, anyone can do that.

This is the last energy I’m going to expend reading, contemplating, trying to understanding anything you say because in the big picture you are a very negative carbon footprint on this earth. It’s sad how the untold electrons have given their lives to power your ability to spew forth contemptuous idiocy over the internet airwaves and caused many an electron to go to an early unsatisfied end.

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 21, 2008 10:23 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Daver starts slow clap.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 22, 2008 10:29 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd rather not have the clap, Daver

but I sure agree with your sentiment. Well said, Weeghman. Rec’d.

All generalizations are false.

by Emelie on Oct 22, 2008 10:41 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions