We need to win in the next two years....

by fischisgod on Oct 23, 2008 1:03 AM CDT Comment 105 comments

i normally am not one to believe in sabre-rattling people that have never played an inning of baseball but this article really got me thinking... http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/10/cubs-rank-low-i.html

we have a serious problem in that our farm system is terrible. We really only have one prospect that has any value currently. After Vitters we dont have a single significant prospect that other teams will want. Our top three pitching prospects are all relievers. Every single chat that i have read with Jim Callis or any other baseball america say that Shark Ceda and Cashner are all bullpen members. No one legitimately thinks anymore that Shark is a starting pitching prospect, and that has nothing to do with him being in the bullpen..

The reason that we have as many good players as we do is becasue of the fact that we had such a good farm system. Choi-=Lee, Bobby Hill=Aramis, and we had Nolasco, Prior, Cruz, Z, Montanez (still a good prospect at the time), Haggerty, Blasko, and so many arms deep in the system.... Our best prospects are now a third baseman and three relievers not to mention a CF that we no longer have any option for. (BTW thank you Lou and Jim for essentially turning Pie (who was untouchable outside of an absurd package) into a player with no value.

I know hindsight is 20/20 but we really overvalued our prospects with the Brian Roberts trade... All this being said, how do we fix this...

My solution... Keep the nucleus of Soriano, Lee, Rammy, Soto, Derosa, andFontenot intact...

(there is going to be no market for lee and quite frankly if he isnt batting third he wont kill us...) Platoon Pie and Reed (send kosuke to the minors and maybe he will retire.. we can only hope.) platoon Fontenot and derosa.. Sign Milton Bradley on a two year deal if possible to play right (when he is healthy his OPS is consistently over .900) and then either go with Ronny Cedeno, Guzman, or furcal if possible at SS...Theriot will never have higher value and quite frankly i cant deal with his range his throws or his lack of XBH....

Resign Dempster offer wood arbrtration and i am ready to go...

Lineup

RHP LHP

Soriano Soriano

Lee Derosa 2B

Ramirez Rammy

Bradley Bradley

Soriano Soto

Fontenot 2B Lee

Pie Reed

SS SS

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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i forgot to mention this

but i really believe fontenot can hit and that he might have more trade value than a lot of people on our team…… he has a legit bat…

"I played with one of the best pitchers in history, Greg Maddux," Zambrano said"

by fischisgod on Oct 23, 2008 1:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Im not claiming to be a baseball expert but..

How important is our farm system for building a winning team? I know it helps to bring in talent and for trading purposes but there are only a handful of teams in the bigs with good farm teams. The white sox won it a few years ago with really no farm team to speak of if I am not mistaken

"Okay, just so I understand it...in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil."- Jim Halpert

by ryanbrixenivy on Oct 23, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fisch

Just wrote about this in this blog that I do… marcotalks.blogspot.com – in there I hit on the same points that you did. Only, in my 2009 prediction, I traded Lee for Randy Winn. I think Winn can lead off and play an average right field. We need to treat Kosuke like a sunk cost.

You talk about the lack of minor league talent… I say let Dempster walk. It has nothing to do with what I think of him as a person (he’s one of my favorites) but if you can get 2 picks for him… I think you do it.

I like your idea with Bradley, and I also think that bringing him in leads to more at bats for Fontenot… Bradley won’t be able to play everyday, and Fontenot steps in at 2nd as DeRo moves to right. Fontenot hit .305/.390/.514 last year… Not too shabby at all considering Utley hit .292/.380/.534 – now, I know sample size has to be figured in, as well as Fontenot not playing much vs LHP, but you’re right, he’s cheap, and he can really hit the ball. His defense isn’t a killer, either.

by serbianking33 on Oct 23, 2008 2:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Trading Lee for Winn is not good

Lee in a down year had a better line than Winn in an up year. Making that trade in a year where the demand for a premiere 1B will be high is short-sighted.

The author of this post is not a certified scout, doctor, agent, statistician, manager, or journalist, nor was he ever a very good player, though he tried very hard to be like Ryne Sandberg and was about as scrappy as it gets (in T-ball). Any opinion expressed above should in no way be confused with fact, truth, or reality and is hereby qualified in the following ways: 1) The author does not know as much about baseball as Lou Piniella. 2) The author does not know as much about baseball as Jim Hendry. 3) The author does not know as much about baseball as either Dusty or Darren Baker.

by DGU on Oct 23, 2008 7:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not big on the Bradley signing.

“When he’s healthy” is a pretty big red flag. Yes, I know about Harden, but by limiting his pitches and occasionally passing him over, you can minimize the risk. Tougher to do that with an outfielder.

Also, sending Dome to the minors and hoping he retires is not a good idea at all. A move like that could potentially take us out of the market for Japanese players in the future—they won’t want to sign with the Cubs after seeing Fukudome be disrespected like that.

Before each game, please remember to feed the bats.

by Cool Hand on Oct 23, 2008 3:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

why does everyone

keep saying “sign bradley”. he’s an aging veteran who’s always healthy and for the most part is a clubhouse cancer when everything dont go his way. no no no no no!!! thats the reason sosa had to leave. I guess since you all havent watched him 1st hand that it makes him better.

I BELIEVE!!!! GO CUBBIES!!!!!!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Oct 23, 2008 7:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

never instead of always

I BELIEVE!!!! GO CUBBIES!!!!!!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Oct 23, 2008 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The window for this team could have been longer

But Lou made decisions that shortened the window to match his tenure with the club. It’s not Lou and Jim who dumped Pie’s value, it was Lou, Lou, Lou with the only responsibility on Jim being that he didn’t fight Lou harder.

by DGU on Oct 23, 2008 7:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

How can you say that?

Pie had some chances to show he could hit major league pitching and he just couldn’t get it done. If you are referring to the fact Lou should have tossed him out there for 50 straight games and let him figure it out, how do you know he wouldn’t have gotten even worse?

With Pie, it is just not the lack of numbers he has produced at the big league level, it is how he has looked – which for the most part is over matched. On the contrary, I put the blame on the farm system much more than I do Piniella. Why in the world, would they pass on teaching this guy to bunt for a hit is beyond me. With his speed, he could get a couple hits a week by doing this, but they saw he had a little power and they wanted to try and make the kid a power hitter (typical Hendry run farm and this is a mirror image of Patterson). So far, Pie has been a failure of the farm system to teach this guy and make him better prepared for the big leagues.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 23, 2008 7:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know there are differences of opinion on this

which is why my original post was simple. But we can’t help noticing that our two main positions of need among position players are two places where we had BA top 100 prospects in the past years, two guys who had success at every level except the ML level, and two guys who showed glimmers of that at the ML level in ’08.

The difference between Pie and Cedeno and Soto and Fontenot is that the first two did not succeed immediately and the latter two did. When, however, Pie and Cedeno did show changed approaches at the plate, they were not rewarded – an obvious thing to do by a ML manager who wants to develop them – rather, they were benched. Pie and Cedeno were put in positions that made them more likely to fail. Pie faced more strikeout pitchers while Reed Johnson feasted on easier right-handers (actually, he never feasted, even then). Ronny faced more left-handed pitchers who have always troubled him at the ML level.

So, you say they weren’t prepared for the MLs. I look at other prospects around the MLs who had success at every level but struggled with their first taste of the majors and then figured it out under the care of their organization. And I say, “We’ll never know if these guys could have done it if they were given the same chance that Pedroia and Tulowtizki got.”

What is beyond debate is this – Lou wasn’t interested in giving those two a chance. Recognizing that fact, you can go the MDBNIU route and say, “That’s because Lou is a supreme genius who never gets player evaluation wrong.” Or, you can admit that the development of these players failed at the ML level where there was no patience for development.

And this much is clear – if Cedeno and Pie had been developed over the past 4 years, the emergence of Soto would have opened our window for a long time to come. This offseason, we’ll likely trade Cedeno, Pie, and Marshall and it will start to get a little stuffy in here.

by DGU on Oct 23, 2008 8:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

big difference

pie is horrible horrible horrible. cedeno is not much better. thats my biggest problem with the cubs and my fellow fans. everyone wants to either run a proven player into the dirt before trying to unload them or run a prospect in the dirt before they reaqlize het this guy doesnt got it. everyone wants to blame lou but hell lou is the middle of a tight pennant race. if they arent producing put their asses on the bench.

I BELIEVE!!!! GO CUBBIES!!!!!!!!!!

by cubsluver22 on Oct 23, 2008 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm

I don’t recall Pie and Cedeno getting enough playing time this season to be considered “running them into the dirt”. And you really didn’t repond to DGUs point about ML player development. C’mon, I think every Cubs fan that has watched Pie and at least seen reports from his time in the ML, would say that he is not “horrible horrible horrible”. I think DGU nailed it, rather than them working on Pie’s small ball approach, they let him smack the ball around against ML pitching. The result is that he was overmatched in the majors, and yet lacked the skills to utilize his best asset — speed. If / when the Cubs trade him, you bet I’ll follow his progress, because he probably will make a fine asset to a team that chooses to develop and use him in the right way.

by StevenABQ on Oct 23, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree.

Dismissing Felix Pie as “horrible horrible horrible” is unfair and overstated. I still don’t think he’s had an adequate opportunity to prove himself one way or the other. Recognizing that 23 PAs is a very small sample, I still think he looked much better in his September callup.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 23, 2008 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

There are some teams where Pie would have been the everyday CF for 2 years now

I just don’t think the Cubs is one of them. He is not horrible but he is not what Lou is looking for and I don’t claim to know anything about what goes on in Lou’s mind. I would really like to see him just go away and get a fair chance somewhere else and do well for a few years.

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 23, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pie=Mike Cameron???

I sometimes wonder if Felix Pie is a poor man’s Mike Cameron. IMO, Mike Cameron continues to get fairly lucrative contracts because of his fielding, speed, and decent pop. Teams seems to ignore his strikeouts and lack of average/patience. I am always amazed at the Market for Mike Cameron….

I would think that given the time that Pie could at least be in the ballpark of Cameron’s hitting statistics….and we already know the dude is money with the leather.

MC Stats

"Sports are a crazy business. If there was a template, we'd all be champions, right? But there's one winner and 29 or 30 losers; one guy wins, everybody else is tied for last. That's the way it works" -- Mark Cuban

by TheRiot Police on Oct 23, 2008 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I feel fairly confident that Pie

can end up with a career ranging between Cameron’s and Jacque Jones’, and I also think he has more upside than that. I actually believe he can have a moderate power game and doesn’t need to be all speed. Either way, you can’t figure that out jerking a guy around. Let him play for 6 weeks and see what he can do. Pie is not Corey Patterson, who was rushed. Pie’s done it at every level he’s had a chance at.

by DGU on Oct 23, 2008 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just hope he gets a chance to have a career somewhere

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 23, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He will

If not given a shot with the Cubs they will move him, even if they have deflated his value somewhat… IMHO, other GMs know his potential.

by StevenABQ on Oct 23, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You don't put up numbers like he has without having some talent. He may never

turn out to be a star player, but he should be able to help a team somewhere.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 23, 2008 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 24, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well...

…we are just talking about a matter of opinion on evaluating talent and IMO, Piniella is the best major league talent evaluator in the Cubs organization. Is he perfect? Of course he isn’t, but if you want to analyze the track record of this organization in regards to talent evaluation, I’ll take any warts Piniella may have in a heart beat.

For a player to succeed from the farm, there has to be a decent foundation that was laid before they got there. I don’t think Pie had that foundation in 07 or 08 and time will tell if he has it in 09. For instance, Look at the productivity Piniella has been able to get out of both Theriot and Fotenot. These are two players the organization didn’t rate highly before Lou got here. The guys that were rated higher were Pie and Cedeno, and again because Hendry’s philosophy has been to fall in love with “tools” rather than looking at some of the fundementals these guys need to be successful – pitch recognition, compact swing etc., all things that give a player a better chance to adapt when they hit the bigs.

I’ll argue tilll the cows come home, that the organization showed it’s philosophy just in the fact that Pie rarely ever tried to bunt for a hit. A guy with his speed, could collect quite a few hits in this fashion and also open up a hole for himself on the left side of the infield. They saw some power potential and they let the guy hack away and build bad habits, that were magnified at the big league level.

Hendry has imposed his will on the farm since 1994, and the track record over those 14 years is telling. By accident, you should have been able to produce 5-6 position players that are good major league players. This is why you have to hope Wilken has been changing that philosophy and will be in a position to start churning out some players and avoid a rebuild period in 2-3 years.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 23, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed on Wilken.

The one issue I have with Piniella is that once you get in his doghouse, it is nearly impossible to get out, and that clouds his talent evaluation abilities. Excellent case in point: Scott Eyre. The Cubs could have used Eyre in September — maybe they wouldn’t have lost two of three in Milwaukee the last weekend, and the Mets might have wound up their opponent.

Instead, Piniella buried Eyre and let him pitch only once in over a month. Now he’s in the World Series — having put up a 1.88 ERA in 19 appearances for the Phillies.

The Cubs could have used that the last two months. Instead, Lou let Eyre’s one really bad game — when he gave up the grand slam to Crawford in Tampa on June 19 — color his opinion of a player who could have been useful to him.

He did the same thing to Jon Lieber after Lieber’s one horrible start in Cincinnati. But for some reason, he continued to let Bob Howry give up long ball after long ball. Why? Who knows?

That, to me, is Lou’s biggest flaw.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 23, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: "Lou's biggest flaw"

It would be a great question to ask him at the Convention, if you’re still attending it.

One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.

by chilango2 on Oct 23, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was thinking the same thing . . .

Someone must ask!

Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! --Homer J. Simpson

by Shanghai Badger on Oct 23, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you guys will remind me at convention time....

…. I’ll do it myself.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 23, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have about 3,500 questions for Lou

I’ll be sure to remind you of a couple relevant ones come January. Thanks Al.

One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.

by chilango2 on Oct 23, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't know if anyone mentioned it yet

but I guess Lou was recently asked if he had anything personal against Stevie Ire. Accordingly to Lou, "’’happen to like him a lot. I mean, I did dislike him as a pitcher.‘’ Who’s getting the last laugh now.

Go All In and Enjoy The Ride.

by Jayo525 on Oct 23, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm curious to see...

…what the atmosphere at the convention will be like this year. Not that I’m expecting widespread booing, but I would think at least a few more fans might take a combative attitude given the team’s second crushing postseason failure in a row.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 23, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know I would

but then again I’m still very bitter and PO’d. To add fuel to the fire, I have to walk by Wrigley every morning on my way the train station. I try to wipe my tears away by the time I reach the platform.

Go All In and Enjoy The Ride.

by Jayo525 on Oct 23, 2008 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hm, that's definitely one of the downsides to living in Wrigleyville.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 23, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The general consensus here, or so I thought, was

canceling reservations to the Convention.
Combativeness won’t help the fans’ cause though. Properly directed, pointed, relevant questions will. However, questioning Lou’s motives/psyche may backfire. I bet he’ll answer those questions in his usual, roundabout rhetoric, culminating in in annoyance/anger.
But he should be questioned on his stubbornness regarding Howry>Eyre.

One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.

by chilango2 on Oct 23, 2008 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I'd guess if anyone had the guts...

…to get truly combative with Lou or Hendry, he or she would quickly be swarmed by security.

“Don’t taze me, bro!”

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 23, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Get this guy out of here! Put him in my doghouse!"

Go All In and Enjoy The Ride.

by Jayo525 on Oct 23, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

BlueMike springs up from the crowd, "But I thought you didn't have a doghouse!"

“Look, you need to shut up and pound sand!” Lou barks back.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 24, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

HAHA!

I don’t want Al to get tazered, but I’m sure he’ll ask the questions in a proper manner.

One day I hope to come up with something worthy of this space.

by chilango2 on Oct 23, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

There was a post a fews weeks ago

that the Hilton experienced several cancellations immediately following the playoff loss.

I think it will still sell out and if the Cubs are smart, they would schedule several prime time autograph sessions during the Q&A’s with Management to thin out the crowd a little.

I will be attending my 7 (almost consecutive) convention this year. At this point, I am mostly going to get away from the fam and have a guys weekend. I still enjoy getting the autographs and such but I admit that up to this point I am not very fired up to see the players this year.

by TheRiot Police on Oct 23, 2008 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your probably right

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 23, 2008 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Credit where credit is due

I agree Lou deserves credit for his use and care of Mike Fontenot. I think that Theriot is a net negative for the team, so that’s a whole other issue.

I agree that the minor league development fof Pie and others could have been improved.

One place where I have a big disagreement is on this idea that the Cubs overvalued Pie and Cedeno. Those two made prospect lists that were put together by a large community of scouts, not just Cub guys. The baseball community as a whole valued those players. And the history of baseball is littered with highly rated prospects who didn’t make it with their teams because of management failures.

The fact that Lou has gotten more out of Theriot-Fontenot than Cedeno-Pie isn’t necessarily in his favor given that we don’t yet know what the latters’ careers will be. I will not be surprised if Cedeno’s career, for one, lasts 5 years longer than Theriot’s.

by DGU on Oct 23, 2008 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not saying...

…the Cubs are anyone else overvalued Pie or Cedeno (at one point), just that they didn’t perform as well when given the opportunity compared to Fontenot or Theriot.

We all know, that sometimes the highly rated farm guys don’t always do well when they get to the bigs, because no one can predict how they will respond to ML pitching. And, sometimes the guys who aren’t rated as high do very well. No organization is 100% with any of this, but the good ones do better at predicting/preparing guys than the lower ones.

Now you can say that Lou helped to ruin Pie’s value by not letting him play for extended periods of time. But, on the other hand, I can also speculate that Pie’s value would have dropped even further if Pie would have been exposed more. Whether he would have gotten better, stayed the same or went down hill with more playing time is all speculation. What isn’t speculation is the fact that he didn’t exactly tear it up when he got his AB’s, and sometimes he looked greatly over matched.

Lastly, if Lou has anything, it is the ability to recognize hitting talent and were he can get production. I also don’t think he has anything against Pie, except that he didn’t think he was ready to be run out there everyday. People keep saying that Hendry has cratered to Lou’s wishes, but I also think Lou has let Hendry have more imput than most think. Pie is an example, as I don’t believe Lou wanted to bring him North last year, because he wanted him to work on his swing at AAA. Another example is Rothschild, as I have heard that Lou would not have retained him last year without Hendry asking him to.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 23, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow, that's the first I heard that about Larry

It doesn’t surprise me but I thought I was the only one who thought he might be a weak link in the coaching staff. I know it will never happen but if only we could get Maddux to be our pitching/bench coach.

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 23, 2008 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hendry made promises...

…to Larry when he turned down the deal he was offered by the Tigers after 06. If you recall, Larry’s deal was up with the Cubs but he turned down a multi-year deal with the Tigers. There is no way he would have done that if Hendry hadn’t promised him that he would return as pitching coach, and that was before they started talking to Piniella.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 23, 2008 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What do BJ Upton, Carlos Guillen, and Raul Ibanez have in common?

Lou’s not perfect.

We’ll learn within a few years whether he was right or if he is the second manager to shut the window on this team a little more by the way prospects were treated.

by DGU on Oct 23, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok...

…obviously you think Lou is dropping the ball, big time. So, who would you rather have as manager, that would assure that guys like Pie get extended playing time even when struggling? Oh, and by the way, this manager is expected to win and win right now.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 23, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't say "big time."

There’s a lot Lou has done right.

But, let’s not blame this on “win and win right now.” Let’s say we played Pie for 50 games – would we have missed the playoffs? would we have have been less likely to win in the playoffs?

The fact of the matter is that playing Pie was the best way to “win now.” Had we played Pie consistently, and had he developed on the big league club, we could still have gotten Edmonds when Soriano went down. And when Lou lost confidence in Dome, we could have had a suitable LH replacement, and our whole starting playoff lineup would have been different.

Playing Pie cost an offense that scored runs in bushels nothing. Not playing Pie – well, we won’t know how much that cost us until we see how Pie’s career goes.

by DGU on Oct 23, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do you have a crystal ball?

…how do you know how Pie would have produced if he got that type of continued exposure? I think there are three choices; he would have gotten better, worse or stayed about the same. No one knows for sure whether he had what it took (in 08) to get better, but in Lou’s opinion, he didn’t think he would get better at that time.

Lou might have been wrong and he might have been right, and I’m not sure there are too many people in a better position (or more qualified) to make that call than him. Lastly, Lou is not the only key organization member that didn’t feel pie was ready for prime time in 08.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 23, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He didn't say that the team would be better or worse, just that we would

know. Now a year has been wasted, he’s out of options and we still don’t know. Now you have to keep him on the big club or risk losing him to another team. This unknown could have been eliminated and the results of the season probably would not have been affected.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 23, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That could be part...

…of the reason half of the Cubs brass wanted Pie to start at AAA in 08, rather than joining the club. Piniella and others, felt Pie still had to work on shortening his swing before getting extended ML time, but Hendry and some in his camp wanted him to go North.

Instead, he came North and struggled and was sent back down to work it out. IMO, that ended up setting the kid back. If he plays 30-50 games to start at AAA, maybe he comes up better prepared, I don’t know, but there was a split down the middle of what they should do with him.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 23, 2008 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

In my view, Lou may have been right initially

but the stunt he pulled after Hendry sent Pie north was insubordinate and counter-productive. He gave Pie 4 days and then selectively played Pie against strikeout pitchers to make his point and get the veteran lefty he wanted.

All along, I feel like I’m the only one that admits I don’t have a crystal ball. So many others are just certain that Pie is “horrible, horrible, horrible” (and, yes, I know those aren’t your words, MPH73; I’m not trying to suggest you hold that view.)

What we do know is that we would have lost nothing by playing Pie 50 games straight.

by DGU on Oct 23, 2008 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

In hindsight...

…you are probably correct, they could have tossed Pie out there through May and still won the division. But, you don’t know that in April and May, because you don’t know whether (at that time) a couple losses in May could have cost you the division.

I don’t know if Lou sent Pie up there purposely against tough pitchers to fail, but I do know, no one was more excited than Lou, when Pie hit that homerun against the Mets after Lou and Perry had spent some time working on his hitting. I just think Lou’s experience told him that this kid was not ready, and he thought Pie wouldn’t be able to figure it out without playing every day and getting the work at AAA.

Lastly, I like Pie and I think the kid has talent and has a good attitude (and the Cubs need his speed). I would love to see him have a light bulb moment, and be someone they can throw out there everyday. In reality, I just have significant doubts as to whether his hitting is ever going to anything to write home about.

I hope I am wrong, but he deserves another shot this spring.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 23, 2008 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lou's intentions

I may go too far in describing Lou’s intentions, but I remember watching through that StL-Cinci series how Pie seemed to draw the roughest pitchers and wondering what was going on. He faced Wainwright but sat for Lohse and Wellemeyer. Then he got Cueto, Harang, and Volquez who got 24 combined strkeouts against us that series.

It’s ironic that you talk about that HR game, because after that game, Pie started to get hot. The next day Pie went 2-5. Then he didn’t start the following day, but the day after he went 2-3. He didn’t start the next four games. How does a guy keep a good rhythm like that? It’s that stretch from the HR game on April 21 to May 7 (Lieber’s HRs game) that had me questioning Lou’s desire to see Pie succeed.

by DGU on Oct 23, 2008 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seems familiar...

Ronny had a .378 avg at the end of April (.578 SLG) and that earned him 8 starts in May, including a nice week off to start the month after tearing up April.

Small sample size, yes, but Cedeno and Pie were never rewarded for good play.

Free Ronny Cedeno

by Kansas25 on Oct 23, 2008 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

A player with his service time should not

have been handled that way. They should have been on the same page. This gets back to same old problem this team has with player development. A player with his speed should have been taught to use that speed to reach base. That should have been started when he was first drafted. There was no way he should have been plopped in the three hole and told to swing away. He has always been a line drive hitter with exceptional speed. He was never going to be a power hitter. Now years have been wasted, they are trying to teach him how to get on base and he’s out of options. Wonderful.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 23, 2008 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You hit the crux...

…of the problem. Pie should have been a masterful bunter before he came up to the bigs. With his speed, that is a real weapon and one opposing teams would have to adjust to and this would open up the left side for him to slap the ball through. You don’t teach a kid power first and contact second, it just doesn’t work that way. You teach them to be as selective as possible, make solid contact and the homeruns will come naturally over time.

This kids greatest strengths are speed and defense and they completely ignored how you get a kid like that on the field everyday, by teaching him to put pressure on the defense by using his speed. You have almost a carbon copy of Patterson here, except Pie has a better attitude.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 23, 2008 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was thinking the same thing about the CP comparison. The fascination

with “tools” has killed the development of both of these players. You learn to play the game as soon as you are drafted. The nuances of baseball need to be taught at the earliest level. It’s not like a running back in football. You don’t just throw them out on the field and expect their talent to pull them through. I don’t know if either of them could have developed into star players, but I don;t feel like they have been given the best chance to develop into productive major league players.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 23, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fundamentals and nuances

I think it’s fairly clear that the farm system isn’t teaching these well. You can see it even in guys who are considered successes, like Ryan Theriot whose base running skills are a mess.

That said, I’m not sure the failure to teach Felix Pie to bunt has anything to do with his failure to produce immediately upon hitting the MLs. The fact is that plenty of good prospects who do pan out struggle at the ML level for longer than Pie was given to see what he could do. It often takes time for a guy to figure out ML movement on pitches.

I agree with this:

You don’t teach a kid power first and contact second, it just doesn’t work that way. You teach them to be as selective as possible, make solid contact and the homeruns will come naturally over time.

I disagree with this:

He was never going to be a power hitter.

People said the same thing about Mike Fontenot. Now he’s “LBR.”

I see power in toolsy players similarly to how the minors deal with guys whose # of pitches makes them borderline for being starters or relievers. Shoot for the highest payback on that prospect for as long as you can. You can always downgrade later in the minor league career.

But this is the fundamental question on Felix Pie – is the problem that he was told to be too much, more than he could be? I don’t think so. Was the problem that he wasn’t given enough time to learn the movement of ML pitchers through consistent playing time. I do think so.

We may never know who was right. It may be that no one was exactly “right.”

by DGU on Oct 23, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes and no. LBR is not a power hitter. There is a difference between a

power hitter and a hitter with power. Many within the Cubs organization tabbed CP and Pie as #3 hitters. Wrong! A #3 hitter should be a consistent RBI man who hits for average. Like Albert Pujols. If you project a player to be a certain type, his development is steered thay way. If you miscast a player, he will not be given the proper training to develop into the type of player that will maximize his talents.

I don’t know if either of these players has turned out any better than they would if they had been taught differently, but you don’t get a lot of chances to develop difference makers, especially first-round picks like Patterson. I think both of these players have more than they have shown on the field.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 23, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok, we're using terms a little differently,it seems.

by DGU on Oct 23, 2008 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree...

…and especially with Patterson, I really think this screwed the guy up.

I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t want to maximize a skill a guy has that can not be taught – speed. From day one, they should have been drilling him to shorten his stroke, hit the ball to the left side and be as selective as possible. Once he gained confidence in having a decent feel for the strike zone and being able to handle the bat, any natural power he had would find itself.

Both Patterson and Pie came up to the bigs with long swings and poor strikezone recognition and were at the mercy of ML pitching when there flaws were exposed. Now, Pie has to work backwards to try and adjust and that is much harder, than nailing that down at the beginning.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 23, 2008 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

See I think it's far too easy

to identify Pie with Patterson just because they are speedy, potentially HR-hitting left-handed CFs. Pie’s development was much different from Patterson’s. Patterson just kept getting moved up even as it became more and more clear he wasn’t learning things. You can see Pie progressing. Patterson had a modicum of success for a time at the ML level, but then it was clear he was overexposed.

Pie has issues, but overexposure is hardly one of them. Quite the opposite.

If nothing else, the one positive in this is that Tyler Colvin, who was looking a lot more like Patterson than Pie prior to this year, actually was forced (or chose) to reboot completely before hitting the majors. This shows that someone is getting it somewhere. At least, I hope so.

by DGU on Oct 23, 2008 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're spot on...

with this. We could have a definitive read on Pie by now, but forfeited that by not giving him enough time. If we really decided at some point that he couldn’t make a contribution, we should have traded him while he had a higher value. Now he’s out of options and we know just as much about him as we did 3 years ago.

Say what you want about C-Pat, but at least we found out what his potential was.

Free Ronny Cedeno

by Kansas25 on Oct 24, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

One thing about Pie and the way the Cubs were playing then, is that they

could have afforded to carry him if they wanted to invest in him in 2008. The team was getting excellent offensive production and could have afforded a guy who played great defense and was woeful against LHP and just on the fringes of heartburn tolerable against RHP.

Yes, Pie could have made it a lot easier decision by smoking the ball but he struggled terribly. At that point the Cubs have to ask themselves “What kind of manager do I want in the event of this type of situation?” They opted for a Manager who would burry him. The same Manager who would make Hill throw pitches with the equivalent of a loaded pistol to his head should he dare walk a batter.

Dusty sucked with young players and Lou is almost as bad. Lou at least saw something in Theriot and Fontenot, but he also totally gave up on Pie, Hill, Fukudome, who else????

Lou could end up being right about all three of those guys but apparently our “Organization” has decided that it now must have faith in them for something.

What this tells me is that the GM is not effectively imposing his will on the Manager or the GM just doesn’t think it’s that important, i.e., you hire a Manager and the Manager molds the team he doesn’t implement your plan. I think this is a real fundamental problem with Cubs Organization.

by DudeVf11 on Oct 23, 2008 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If I have said it once...

…I have said it a million times – organizations who win over the long haul (and without spending over 150 mil) have done it with a VERY GOOD GM. Managers come and go, and even mediocre ones can win with a great GM above him. On the contrary, the best managers will struggle to sustain success with mediocre work above him.

Now, I disagree slightly on Hendry always giving in to Piniella. One example is Pie himself, and if Piniella had his way, Pie would have started the year at AAA vs needing to be shipped back down later. In that circumstance, Hendry got his wish. Also, Lou went along with Hendry on Rothschild, who I don’t think Lou is crazy about – another circumstance in which Hendry got his way.

No matter what manager the Cubs have, there is going to be something that isn’t desirable. Doesn’t handle the pitching staff well, bad lineups, doesn’t hold players accountable, doesn’t play young players enough, etc. etc. etc.. I’ll summarize by saying this; the Cubs organization does not have a history of evaluating talent in general and specifically young position players. Now, you bring in Piniella who has been around a while and at least has a reputation as a good talent evaluator. He sees a guy like Pie (with great physical skills) and sees how the guy is hacking for the fences. I would imagine Piniella noticed Pie’s greatest asset (speed), and he thought – WTF did they do to this kid and why didn’t they teach him to bunt and use the whole field in his hitting approach?

It was well reported, that at the end of ST 08, the Cubs top baseball people were split on whether Pie should go north with the club. It was also reported, that Piniella wanted Pie to work on his swing at AAA and Hendry was pushing for Pie to get a shot with the big league club. If I had to guess, guys loyal to Hendry wanted Pie to go north because when a young player makes it, it puts a feather in the organizations cap. In the end, I think Piniella has bent on things more than people realize with Hendry, and much more than he would have maybe 5 years ago. Honestly, I’m hoping the Piniella we see in 09, is more like the one from 10 years ago, because the club needs someone to really take a hold of this thing, and I just happen to trust Piniella more than anyone else (warts and all).

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 24, 2008 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The issue with Piniella, though...

… is that, as you say, maybe Piniella gave in to Hendry on keeping Pie on the club. But once you’ve done that, you have to give the guy a shot. Giving him four starts in a month and benching him as soon as he had a couple of bad games isn’t giving him a shot.

Lou should have given him two full months in a platoon role.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 24, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really, I don't think this was as clear cut as "Hendry got his way."

We know that Hendry had been looking for other CFs, particularly Coco Crisp and Marlon Byrd, both of whom were getting huge price tags beyond what Hendry thought they were worth paying. It seems to me like Hendry tried to get Lou what he wanted but was not able at that time.

As for the question – who got his way? I don’t see how anyone can say that “Hendry got his way.” Hendry’s way was not a 4-day trial then scattershot playing time. Lou got his way; he just had to wrangle for it for a few weeks.

by DGU on Oct 24, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly my point.

And if that was going to be the case, maybe Pie should have just been sent down. Doing what they did may have screwed him up.

The good news is that he appeared to have changed his approach at the time he was recalled in September. Maybe he can still be a productive major leaguer. He will be 24 in March — not too old, yet.

"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx

by Al on Oct 24, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the bigger question is this...

…was it proper to bring up Pie when it is apparent, that he needed to work on his swing and several in the organization thought so?

This is what I am hung up on regarding this whole thing and it goes back to how the kid was taught in the minors. He was not prepared to face major league pitchers on a day to day basis without further seasoning. Some recognized that in March, others didn’t.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 24, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think this is what we can agree on -

The current club schizophrenia is a problem, but maybe not a long term problem if Colvin is a club-wide indication. Hendry and others with similar viewpoints thought that Pie could succeed the way he was hitting. So, they put him on the 25-man. Lou and Perry did not. So, they played him intermittantly (in a way no one could succeed) and had him second-guessing his approach.

Pie was brought up but he didn’t get to play as he had played before. He stands in the box watching strikes go by so that he’ll look patient to Lou, then swings at bad pitches, hoping to get a hit with 2 strikes on him. Players with that unselective approach and similar skill sets have succeeded at the ML level – Curtis Granderson, Jacque Jones, Alfonso Soriano – but they swing at earlier pitches when they’re more likely to get a strike thrown. Pie may not have the ability to do what they have done, but he didn’t really get to try, either. He was stuck in a hybrid approach that wasn’t going to work.

Going forward the club has to agree and work together. If you’re going to give Pie a shot, give him a shot and see what he can do. If you’re going to agree everyone has to be patient at the plate, then don’t bring anyone up from the minors (Micah, too!) who doesn’t show that approach.

by DGU on Oct 24, 2008 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree...

…and I’ll add, I don’t think anyone expects every hitter to be patient and draw a bunch of walks, but I do think Piniella expects them to be able to be competitive at this level. Some hitters are going to be free swingers, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as they have a swing that allows them to put the fat part of the bat on the ball enough. Pie broke more bats during his time in the bigs, than any player I have ever seen. Because he was slow in getting the bat through the hitting zone, he got sawed off with regularity.

With his wheels, they should have worked to shorten his stroke the very first day he became Cub’s property, and who knows where he may be today.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 24, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You make an interesting point

with Pie’s broken bats – one I didn’t observe (I’m not disputing it). How would you compare/contrast Micah’s approach to Pie’s – and their relative chance of succeeding?

by DGU on Oct 24, 2008 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure whether this is a serious question or not...

…but do they keep stats regarding how many times a hitter breaks his bat?

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 24, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, it's a serious question.

by DGU on Oct 24, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wait, so they do keep those stats?

Are they on baseball-reference.com?

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 24, 2008 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Different hitters...

…Micah has an aggressive approach, which means his mentality is telling him to hack away if it looks pretty decent and that is his natural response. He also has a swing that produces good bat speed and he also seems to have decent plate coverage. His swing is also compact once he gets it going.

Where Micha struggles is when he faces pitchers with a good offspeed pitch (usually a change). His timing gets out of whack and he ends up swinging at pitches he shouldn’t. If he could ever hold his trigger a hair longer, the guy could do some real damage and he already has when he gets his pitch to hit.

Right now, if you gave Micah 500 AB’s and the same to Pie, there is no question in my mind that Micah would produce at a much higher level than Pie. I say this because Micah simply has better “hitting skills” and that will surface over 500 AB’s.

I am not advocating sticking Micah in the lineup, but my curiosity is peaked as to what he could do as a DH in the AL.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 24, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I saw Micah swinging at pitches far out of the strike zone

not just off-speed pitches. That’s what has me believing his stats on ABs 51-250 are going to be brutally ugly. Whether or not he can adjust for ABs 251-500 is a question his age has me doubting, but I would be interested to see the DH experiment in the AL.

by DGU on Oct 24, 2008 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have been using the 2 year window...

…as well in my comments and I think they are very real. Amongst your core players (Soriano, Lee, Ramirez, DeRosa), 3 of the 4 (and maybe 4 out of 4) have probably had their best years in the past. Don’t get me wrong, they are still good players and can produce, but the clock is ticking.

When you combine this with a farm system that has only recently produced a position player or two, you can see how there is a good chance the club has to either have a payroll over 160 mil, or you go through a retooling process in 2-3 years.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 23, 2008 7:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

That blog said players currently on the MLB roster

So we dont necessarily rank 26th in terms of farm systems, so I guess it could be even lower..ha.

I sense that there will be a market for Lee, but as we all know, its up to him if he wants to go. After Teixeira makes his mind up, Lee should look better to those teams who missed out on him.

The minor league system bore a lot of fruit, its just the biggest prize, Prior, couldnt stay healthy, had he then 3/5th of the rotation would’ve been homegrown.

I dont know how in the world they were able to get players the caliber of Ramirez and Lee for Bobby Hill and Hee Seop-Choi, respectively. Theriot and Fontenot surely have more value than they did, at least with Hill. So maybe Hendry can pull another magic trick.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 23, 2008 8:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

3/5 if Wood was still a health starter that is.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Oct 23, 2008 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

2-year window

I don’t disagree with all of this post, but keep a couple things in mind:

1) Let’s say the Cubs are savaged by injuries next year and are out of it by mid-July. A few well-made trades could restock the system pretty quickly. This is why, sometimes, it’s better to be a terrible team with useful parts than a mediocre team with slim wild card hopes.

I’m, of course, not rooting for a repeat of 2006. But there are ways that the 2-year window can be extended.

2) Farm systems can be hard to judge. I’m not sure I’d put Fontenot among the Cubs’ cornerstones, BUT I do think he’s a valuable piece. A valuable piece that was not really on the radar two years ago.

3) You can get useful minor league players as throw-ins from larger deals. Matt Murton never panned out to what we all hoped, but he was a throw-in from the Nomar deal that improved the Cubs’ stable of young players.

I mention this because it’s possible that trading someone like Lee or DeRosa can net players that help immediately AND two years down the road.

4) The Cubs have money. No, it doesn’t always buy wins (or happiness), but the Cubs having a weak farm system isn’t as crushing as, say, the Brewers having a bad farm system.

Big point: Is it good that the farm system isn’t very strong right now? Of course not. But I don’t agree that it NECESSARILY gives the team a 2-year window.

by elgato on Oct 23, 2008 10:02 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Question/comment:

1. If restocking the farm system is the goal, wouldn’t it be better to let Dempster walk and get some draft picks?

2. Do you really think the Cubs would bury a player making as much money as Kosuke Fukudome in the minors in the hopes that he’d retire? Seems highly unlikely.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 23, 2008 10:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

i think they would send him to AAA if

Pie has a good spring and Fukudome sucks it up.. There is no doubt in my mind that we are going to try everything to either get production out of him or get him to call it quits…. he was terrible june on i believe

"I played with one of the best pitchers in history, Greg Maddux," Zambrano said"

by fischisgod on Oct 23, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Things can change in two years...

the Cubs could get a LOT better and some of our prospects could jump out and really surprise us.

Hell, no one even dreamt the Rays would be in the world series, let alone beat BOS and NYY, or even have a winning record in 2008.

I remember at the beginning of this year people were like “The Rays are a little better but they aren’t tthere yet”

Guys stepped up.

I’m looking forward to seeing Vitters, especially, come up to the bigs whenever that time may be.

by EJThunder on Oct 23, 2008 3:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Sobering thing is that 2008 was likely are best shot...

Cubs had the majority of players chalk in with solid campaigns, to include several veterans who will be hard-pressed to improve upon their 2008 production. Plus the Cubs stayed relatively injury free with exception of Soriano.

Starters….Dempster, Lilly and Marquis performed about as good as could ever be expected. Harden was as healthy as he has ever been during his time with the Cubs. Zambrano is the only one who can and will probably do better. All 5 starting pitchers staying healthy (with the exception of Zambrano’s modest time off stints) will be hard to replicate again.

Bullpen…Wood stayed as healthy and pitched as well as could have been expected. Can he do that again? Carlos Marmol also was an exceptional workhorse? Can he do that again?

Lineup…Hard to imagine Lee, DeRosa, Theriot and the Edmonds/Johnson being able to top or even match their offensive production in 2008. Soto too given that he gets beat up behind the plate for a living. Soriano is the only member of the lineup where you would assume greater production in 2009. That’s because he missed a lot of time on the IR.

"Not that I don't feel like I'm part of the team, by no means, but when you get that nice celebration coming into the dugout and you're getting your ass hammered by guys, it's no better feeling than to have that done.'' -- Matt Stairs (aka The Professional Hitter)

by MDBNIU on Oct 23, 2008 11:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The one thing you are discounting is the fact that other players could improve next year. Soriano is

not the only player that could improve on his numbers from last year. It’s easy to say that a player had a career year, but you really don’t know that to be a fact until the player’s career is over. They could see more production out of RF, 3B or 1B and find themselves right back at 97 wins. You really can’t predict the ceiling of a young player like Soto because he doesn’t have an established record to refer to. He may go up or down. Predict next year’s finish is always an iffy proposition because you really don’t know which pieces will be added or subtracted from the team.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 24, 2008 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cubs were blessed with a lot of good years and health in 2008

Chances of the starting rotation staying as healthy and effective again in 2009 are not good. Ditto Wood in the pen. Marmol logged a very heavy workload and was outstanding but for a minor stretch of time. The lineup? Well, collectively speaking the Cubs will be hard pressed to get the same health and production out of Lee, DeRosa, Theriot and the Edmonds / Johnson tandem (who clicked in with over 90 RBIs in CF). Soto had to endure the trials of getting beat up behind the plate, therefore it is hard to think he will perform at better level than his excellent 2007 offensive numbers.

by MDBNIU on Oct 24, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Soto's excellent 2007 numbers? Do you mean 2008?

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 24, 2008 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Injuries are always the wild card. I will be the first to admit the

Cubs blew a golden opportunity by not capitalizing on their fortune injury-wise. Teams that win titles are usually blessed with an injury-free year and other than Soriano’s usual leg woes and a few bumps in the pitching staff, they were injury-free. My point was only that increased offensive production can come from unexpected places, so I wouldn’t make any bold predictions until I know who will be manning all of the positions.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 24, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Cubs did have injury issues. They also had depth to cover it.

Soriano, Harden, Zambrano, RJ, DeRosa, Aramis, Edmonds, Lieber, Wood, Eyre all lost time. This wasn’t necessarily an injury, per se, (although he suggests it was) but we totally and unexpectedly lost our #2 starter. That’s one area we could do better in 2009 – if we got the productive Rich Hill back.

by DGU on Oct 24, 2008 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah but most of those injuries were pretty minor. Injuries that hurt are broken bones and torn up knees. The

kind that knock a player out for the year. You take a couple of key pieces out of the lineup for the year the team looks different.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 24, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

We lost Soriano for a good amount of time. We lost Hill and Lieber for the whole year, and going in, I thought those guys were two of our 5 best pitchers. It was a good year for injuries; I just want to point out how good Hendry’s depth was.

by DGU on Oct 24, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not discounting the depth of the team. Soriano is always gone for part of the season,

you can bank on that. Other than him, none of the major performers was lost for any extended period of time. If you look at championship teams, they usually have that type of good fortune in respect to injuries.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 24, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Totally disagree about Soto.

2008 was his rookie year. So you’re saying all catchers regress after their rookie years because they get “beat up behind the plate”? I also think Reed Johnson could do just as good or better next year – remember, he’ll be a year further away from that back surgery.

And the line “Harden was as healthy as he has ever been during his time with the Cubs,” is pretty hilarious. Yeah, he was as healthy as he’s ever been in his long two- to three-month tenure with Chicago’s National League ballclub. I can already see you backpedaling on the move you trumpeted for like Herb friggin’ Alpert.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 24, 2008 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Soto's sophomore...

…year will depend on whether he uses right field a little bit more. When he thinks up the middle, he has the potential to be the 3 or 4 hitter for this club, but he has a tendancy to get pull happy.

One thing about him though, if you hang on or give him a tasty fastball out over the plate, he rarely misses it. If he can use the whole field a littlle more, he can really be good.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 24, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Soto had an excellent offensive year in 2008

I think it is wishful thinking to believe he can improve much beyond his fine 2008 performance. Catching 135 games behind the plate exacts a big toll on the body. Heaven forbid Soto have to deal with a nagging injury all year long like a lot of catchers end up enduring.

by MDBNIU on Oct 24, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Sophemore slump is a real issue with catchers

and Soto was way overused the first two months of the season, but Lou did, thankfully, pull back on that a little.

I’m optimistic on Soto, but no one should be surprised if he falls back a bit in ’09. A solid backup C who can rest Soto a good deal would be very helpful.

by DGU on Oct 24, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting. I guess we'll see.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 24, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Didn't say regress, now did I asswipe

by MDBNIU on Oct 24, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's that Bluemike venom we've all come to know and love.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 24, 2008 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Big words scare you don't they, BlueMikey?

Main Entry: 1re·gress
Pronunciation: \ˈrē-ˌgres\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English regresse, from Anglo-French, from Latin regressus, from regredi to go back, from re- + gradi to go — more at grade
Date: 14th century
1 a: an act or the privilege of going or coming back b: reentry 1
2: movement backward to a previous and especially worse or more primitive state or condition
3: the act of reasoning backward

Here’s what you said:

Hard to imagine Lee, DeRosa, Theriot and the Edmonds/Johnson being able to top or even match their offensive production in 2008. Soto too given that he gets beat up behind the plate for a living.

So, in 2009, Soto won’t be able to top or even match his 2008 offensive production. Therefore, he will “move backward” or get “worse” – i.e., regress. Class dismissed.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 24, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're wasting electrons trying to teach him something

I love meaning #3 in this context

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 24, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kinda sums up BlueMike himself, don'tcha think?

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 24, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What happened to the "pound sand" comment? He's slipping.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 24, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I think I keep messing with him...

…because, subconsciously, I want him to tell me to pound sand.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Final words of the water pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 24, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's like that big sleeping bear you see. You just keep poking it with a stick until it wakes up

chases you down the hill.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Oct 24, 2008 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love that story!

Tommie Agee was out.

by Weeghman Park on Oct 24, 2008 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or like those "Messin' With Sasquatch" commercials.

Love those.

"I see I'm not the only one around here who can't hold his water." - Last words of the leaky pipe in the visiting team dugout, Dodger Stadium, October 4, 2008.

by dat cubfan daver on Oct 24, 2008 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs