Harden

by thisisitflyfishing on Oct 5, 2008 1:43 AM CDT

Not worth the trade! He was electric at times this year. In the end, Kuroda even looked better. He was just o.k. Today I thought we had a chance because he was on the mound. Turns out he was just another fraud in the long line of lameness we have hung our hope upon. Can we ever pick up the great "difference maker"? This was just another move that really made no difference. We would have ended up at the same place with out him: In the playoffs, out in the first round.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation, Bleed Cubbie Blue, or Al Yellon, editor-in-chief. FanPost opinions are, however, valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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one playoff game?

Going to say he wasn’t worth it because he had a shaky playoff start? When the rest of the team was even worse?

He made the task of winning the division easier AND he will help last year, IF he can stay healthy of course.

Do you miss Sean Gallagher, Matt Murton or Eric Patterson that much?

by jeff_pico on Oct 5, 2008 1:47 AM CDT 0 recs

Harden

He’s not the reason you got your ass handed to you…. again.

We lost 1 second after the grand slam in the 1st game.

by Dos Equis on Oct 5, 2008 1:52 AM CDT 0 recs

Right, Harden did just fine

Sure, we would all like a one-hit shutdown, but when the offense cannot score any runs, it is pretty hard to win.

This series died when our first pitcher walked seven guys and flirted with disaster until disaster bit him. At the point, the pressure became monumental. He pitches a good game, and we win, and it’s a different story.

I love Dempster, and hindsight is 20-20, but obviously he was not a good choice for the first playoff start. Seven walks!

We aren’t even getting much playoff experience, unfortunately. We need to get a couple off playoff-hardened starters and hitters if we are going to get anywhere in the post-season. Is Derek Lowe available next year?

by cubmudgeon on Oct 5, 2008 7:35 AM CDT up 0 recs

Look...

The offense scored 1 damn run. The Umpire appeared to miss a call. Sure he did not make a great pitch to Loney, but christ the offensive did not show up the whole series. They scored 2, 3, 1 runs the whole series. They had more than 1 runner on with no outs I think 1 freaking time.

They totally forget the approach that gave them sucess all year.

This epic failure is on the position players…not on Rich Harden.

"Aw, how could he (Jorge Orta) lose the ball in the sun, he's from Mexico." -- Harry Carey

by TheRiot Police on Oct 5, 2008 1:54 AM CDT 0 recs

This epic failure is on the position players…not on Rich Harden.

Agreed.

by Ryno72 on Oct 5, 2008 8:33 AM CDT up 0 recs

Good Night...

yet i can’t seem to go to bed.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Oct 5, 2008 1:56 AM CDT 0 recs

Harden...

…pitched a decent game, but he hasn’t had his good live fastball for well over a month. Clearly, this guy is going to be on again off again because of his injury history and it looks like you have another Mark Prior type of guy.

His option is 7 million and it will be a tough call for Hendry. He already has 12 mil a year in Fukudome (which looks like it could be a bust), so I don’t know if he chances having another guy not contributing for that amount.

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Oct 5, 2008 2:24 AM CDT 0 recs

I think this is a good analysis

Even if he is healthy, he’s a five or six inning guy. Having a guy like him as a number three or four starter sounds like a great way to burn your bullpen…

Let him go, and give a young guy, like maybe The Shark (too late to try to spel Smard…) a shot.

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 2:41 AM CDT up 0 recs

Harden...

..is signed through next year. I say, what the hell, go for Manny — send Fukudome down to AAA till he can hang with the big boys — then let Dempster walk and sign a top notch starter.

"I never drink water because of the disgusting things fish do in it" -W.C. Fields

by calicubfan on Oct 5, 2008 2:53 AM CDT up 0 recs

This is crazy

Top notch starter?… Who?… Dempster is one of the best starters available at a price that isn’t going to be insane… Harden needs to be kept … one year 7 million for him while the Kyle Lohse’s are getting 4/40… Fukudome still posted a .360 OBP… while yes he was aweful… give him a chance to turn things around as he is a great defender and if he can move to CF then his lack of power isn’t a big deal… Manny would be cool to have but I just don’t trust giving him a lot of money at this point in his career and with his mental health

by Steves Stoners on Oct 5, 2008 2:56 AM CDT up 0 recs

back that truck up

Kosuke’s OBP in July-September was .296 :(

by jeff_pico on Oct 5, 2008 3:05 AM CDT up 0 recs

Correct...

…and before that you’ve got to think the league had no idea how to pitch to him. The league adjusted and he had no answer – only about the most awkward swing in baseball today.

They’re going to end up eating his contract and he’ll go back to being succesful in Japan. I guess there is only great reward if you take great risks – but this one simply didn’t work out…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 3:08 AM CDT up 0 recs

Kosuke

he was pathetic and i’m not gonna argue against that… but with his whole body of work… he showed signs of great play… maybe some rest and a bunch of retooling his swing we can get him to a 360-370 OBP for a whole season… but with how he played first 3 months I just want to give him a bit more time… the league adjusted to him and he couldn’t handle it… maybe some rest and a bunch of retooling this winter and spring training he can make his needed adjustments… at least he still has a good eye… but yes Kosuke’s swing is ugly

by Steves Stoners on Oct 5, 2008 3:11 AM CDT up 0 recs

I know

by Steves Stoners on Oct 5, 2008 3:11 AM CDT up 0 recs

If he were a typical rookie...

…I might agree. You wouldn’t have to pay him much and maybe he would put it together. But this guy has been around a long time. As the old saying goes, it’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Some aspects of his game are undeniably very good, but they don’t make up for his deficiencies. Slick fielding, speedy outfielders abound. Good strong hitters don’t. Fukudome’s speed and defense, and maybe even his batting eye can be replaced. On the other hand, that gaping lack of offense in the lineup wherever he bats is a real problem…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 3:22 AM CDT up 0 recs

I agree on this

If he plays near the level the last half of this season something needs to be done and he can’t be starting anywhere near a regular basis… I don’t like his chances of “figuring” things out but we have to give him a chance unless someone is willing to take him this offseason (maybe they didn’t see the cubs post all star break)… but yes I don’t know if he’ll turn it around but there is so much invested and he did look good for a little bit of time… lets see if he can make adjustments to the leagues adjustments and if he doesn’t fix it then keep him away from the lineup

by Steves Stoners on Oct 5, 2008 3:27 AM CDT up 0 recs

He's an awfully expensive guy to keep on the bench

He would be a bad presence, an unpleasant reminder of an expensive deal that just didn’t pan out. A constant source of irritation. With his chances of “recovery” seemingly pretty slim, I think it does more damage to keep him around as opposed to putting him “out of sight, out of mind”…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 3:34 AM CDT up 0 recs

He can't hit an MLB

slider or splitter. Maybe he can adjust. We have to pay him anyway, so we might as well see if he can get it together. We’ll know next spring, because every pitcher in baseball is going to wear him out with hard breaking stuff from this point on.

Get used to the slider down and in Kosuke, you;re gonna see about a thousand of them next year.

by cubmudgeon on Oct 5, 2008 8:05 AM CDT up 0 recs

Option

easy to pick up… its only a one year commitment for a guy who is a stud when healthy. I wouldn’t want to give him anything longer than a year commitment but his season this year was easily worth 7 million and its only a one year commitment. If he gets some serious injuries or long term, its not the greatest loss but to give up a guy with his stuff for a one year commitment is crazy!

by Steves Stoners on Oct 5, 2008 2:54 AM CDT up 0 recs

It's the "Prior Factor" that worries me

The guy goes down and your whole rotation is a wreck. Sure, any guy can go down with an arm injury but this guy has a history…I think Harden has more value for the prospects he can bring from the right team than he does as a starter at this point…

Funny, but I don’t see a lot of posts about a similar “stud when healthy” guy – Ben Sheets. Would you want to have him in your rotation? Same kind of scenario…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 3:05 AM CDT up 0 recs

But we don't need to count on Harden as much as Prior

he will just be there and if he’s healthy we have a stud if not its a short-term not too expensive loss… we’ll get the prospects next year too most likely… Yes i would want Ben Sheets for 1 year 7 Million… every day of the week… i’m not saying I want a team of those guys at the top… we got Z, Lilly (I think we’ll resign Demp)…. do you know how much number 4 and 5 starters are going for in the league these days?!?…. look at Marquis’ contract… we have some guys to replace Harden (Marshall, possibly the Shark… a few others… feel bad mentioning at this time but Rich Hill). Ben Sheets I would want for a one year 7 million dollar contract (well barring whether he blew out his elbow)… same with Harden… its not a big commitment and the upside is huge

by Steves Stoners on Oct 5, 2008 3:17 AM CDT up 0 recs

Established 4 & 5?

Yes, they cost a mint. But promising rookies? Not so much. Tampa Bay Arizona, and Florida are chock full of them. If a four or five is that valued in the league, trading Harden should pay off handsomely in prospects…that’s the way other teams build pitching staffs – why don’t we?

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 3:25 AM CDT up 0 recs

We need to draft them

and our scouting team has done a pretty piss poor job…. it helps for the Rays and those teams getting the top end picks year in year out… I wouldn’t be opposed to trading Harden for some good prospects if we can get a great deal… but its going to be hard over the offseason to get a huge deal for him… it would be easier before the trade deadline looking for someone desperate but we might need him too… my opinion is this…. if we can trade him for some good prospects then do it…. but if we can’t there is no way this team shouldn’t pick up his 7 million dollar option… its only a year commitment… we don’t have these “promising rookies” to start we have the Shark but he isn’t ready yet to start IMO… Marshall is alright for a back end starter …. Rich Hill is MIA… Harden is a solid guy to have in there

by Steves Stoners on Oct 5, 2008 3:31 AM CDT up 0 recs

O.k. Deal!

Try to find a deal for him and, if nothing comes up to snuff, keep him. I’m fine with that. But I do think we need to look for a decent deal first…

It will be interesting to see what comes of Cashner…

by MIMuggles on Oct 5, 2008 3:36 AM CDT up 0 recs

Yes

I think we both had the same idea on this one… our drafting has always been piss poor for hitting prospects (Soto turned himself into a great player)… we had those pitching prospects (Zambo, Wood, Prior) who were great picks (just didn’t work out the way one would like) but lately we just haven’t been able to get those starters (top end starters and depth)… but hopefully Cashner, Ceda, Marmol and a few others could make a nice core bullpen with depth… we just need to get some of those starters (Gallagher might hurt losing… jury is out on him) but we need the depth and top end guys who Harden might help that a bit but we need to start drafting a lot better.

by Steves Stoners on Oct 5, 2008 3:42 AM CDT up 0 recs

A deadline deal for Harden

I’m thinking that could be great for us… if he is pitching well to the trading time I would like to trade him if we could get a top notch guy… barring a healthy staff for us we can do without him as long as we get a great return for him and find that desperate team

by Steves Stoners on Oct 5, 2008 3:45 AM CDT up 0 recs

deadline deal?

Are you already giving up on us even being in contention in 2009?

by jeff_pico on Oct 5, 2008 3:47 AM CDT up 0 recs

No

I am not at all… I think our rotation will be able to handle him leaving… I think we will make the postseason next year without Harden 2nd half… so i wouldn’t mind trading him then to get a great guy for a long time and basically just give up a few postseason starts from Rich (which aren’t sure bets on him being healthy or being great starts)… to get some prospects from a desperate team would help a lot and we could in turn just grab a veteran guy (a maddux type guy) for basically nothing to eat innings and maybe make a post season start if they are pitching well

by Steves Stoners on Oct 5, 2008 3:52 AM CDT up 0 recs

ok

But it might be the first time in history that a contending team trades away part of thier rotation.

Thats the whole thing with buyers/sellers at the deadline. Wouldn’t it suck if they traded away Harden only to face him in the playoffs? Ouch.

Teams usually try to stay away from that possibility. The Cubs did give away Eyre to the Phillies but thats a whole different case.

by jeff_pico on Oct 5, 2008 3:54 AM CDT up 0 recs

I know it sounds weird

I would like to try to trade him this offseason for something good… a deadline deal would be weird but could be nice… if not just let him go at end of the year and take the draft picks for him and hope we can use those picks to do damage

by Steves Stoners on Oct 5, 2008 3:57 AM CDT up 0 recs

At the Game

He was not lights out, like he has been, but our offense was in the Deep Freeze.

by vonde6 on Oct 5, 2008 2:54 AM CDT 0 recs

Agreed

4.1 isn’t exactly a quality start, but since when is three runs insurmountable? Behind in the game, behind in the count, behind in the series, screw it; I want to go home. This after so many dramatic comebacks all season.

by Cold Snowden on Oct 5, 2008 3:50 AM CDT up 0 recs

Jeff

I’m starting to get delirious… this series just took it all out of me… it helps a bit to see our team will be good again next year but that hardly takes out the sting… we’ll have to continue this another day

by Steves Stoners on Oct 5, 2008 4:07 AM CDT 0 recs

harden

if ther cubs scored 5 runs we,d all be saying what a great game harden pitched.2003 was crushing and depressing.when the cubs play like this they deserve to go home and i dont take it so hard.they were pitifull.until this team learns how to win a.k.a. the red sox nothing will ever change.soriano 1-14 ramirez 2-11.just a couple of reasons involved in this mess.

by NOMAR on Oct 5, 2008 8:20 AM CDT 0 recs

There is no doubt that hitting was our problem

I am just saying that Harden has not looked like the Harden in the beginning and I cant stand that you have a guy who is only good for 5 innings. I mean look at Kuroda last night, this guy pitched better than Harden did period.

by thisisitflyfishing on Oct 5, 2008 8:51 AM CDT 0 recs

He cost

Gallagher, Murton and Patterson. So what? He pitched well enough.

by rlpete on Oct 5, 2008 8:52 AM CDT 0 recs

Pitched well enough

He pitched 4.1 innings with 3 Runs. This equals a 6.23 ERA. 6.23 ERA and 4.1 innings is NOT getting it done. Marshall, Cotts and Marmol GOT IT DONE last night. Had they duplicated Harden’s stats we would have given up 7 total runs. Its just that this team is too lame to even score 3.

by thisisitflyfishing on Oct 5, 2008 9:02 AM CDT 0 recs

I personally wish we had Gallagher still

He is a youg kid with a bright future who was costing us nothing and we went out and got Harden for exactly last night. What we got in exchange was not worth it, end of story.
If that deal never was made I am quite certain we would have ended the same fate…make the playoffs and out first round.

by thisisitflyfishing on Oct 5, 2008 9:04 AM CDT 0 recs